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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 76 | |
| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/16/2006 1:37:10 AM | After reading this thread I have consulted my doctor and a trusted friend in the pediatric field.
My daughter has yet to receive the 12 mos and 18 mos vaccine mentioned here. Our family doctor was dismissive of my concerns regarding the vaccines for my daughter. However, the advice I sought from my other source suggested I wait until my daughter was almost 3 to get the vaccines in question. Since I do not have my lil one in a public daycare, I think I will wait until I am required to have those shots administered..eg...kindergarden. There is much debate in the pediatric field regarding this subject at the moment......mass hysteria?....maybe...........I would rather be safer waiting...than sorry later. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/17/2006 3:43:06 PM | Babs
And you are also hoping against hope that all the parents of the children your child socialises with have had the guts to have had their children vaccinated so that your child does not get Measles in this time. So I hope you are safe waiting!!!!! | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/17/2006 4:12:54 PM |
all the parents of the children your child socialises with have had the guts to have had their children vaccinated so that your child does not get Measles in this time
I don't know if thats a fair statement.. Do you know the stats of people actually contracting Measles? I mean thats like saying because you haven't gotten the small Pox Vaccination you better hope your lucky stars that you don't encounter the disease..
I think Measles is one of those vaccinations that is given more as a "Just In Case" thing. I have not heard of any major out break in Measles..
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00000279.htm
This Web Page describes cases in 1982 at 915 cases for the whole of Canada... Or 4.3 cases per 100,000 people.. So even then the cases were low..
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/378499&erFrom=3800071193391352726Guest
This page is a little more up to date... But it points out that outbreaks, when they did occur seemed to happen in close nit religious communities.. Which makes allot of sense. Allot people still practice what are known as Pox Parties.. 1 Kid on the block get Chicken Pox, you invite all the neighborhood kids over to contract it as well at the same time.
So I think there is a pretty High Chance that waiting an extra year to have a shot done is not going to result in the contraction of these diseases.. Especially when the children are not being exposed daily to allot of other kids all the time. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/17/2006 4:43:18 PM |
So I think there is a pretty High Chance that waiting an extra year to have a shot done is not going to result in the contraction of these diseases.. Especially when the children are not being exposed daily to allot of other kids all the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5081286.stm
Herd immunity cuts in at 95% immunization rates, this is what you mean by your reference to the Smallpox Vaccine and actually I have be immunised against this plus Haemorrhagic Fever, Plague, Anthrax, VEE, Botulism, Q Fever, Yellow Fever, Jap Enc oh the list goes on.
The reason that the prevalence of Measles is so low is that herd immunity is so good, but if 20% of parents decide not to have their kids immunized or wait for them to be older the Herd immunity will drop, and measles will take hold, its happening all over the developed world, not helped of course by travelers going to measles endemic areas like, well anywhere outside of the first world. So what I say is very fair. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/17/2006 4:54:48 PM |
The reason that the prevalence of Measles is so low is that herd immunity is so good, but if 20% of parents decide not to have their kids immunized or wait for them to be older the Herd immunity will drop, and measles will take hold its happening all over the developed world, not helped of course by travelers going to measles endemic areas like, well anywhere outside of the first world. So what I say is very fair.
What you say isn't incorrect... However even in the page you listed... 175 cases for an area of population in the Millions... Even if the population is 1 Mil... 175 cases accounts for .000175% of the population..
And most of the time when people are traveling to countries where such things are abundant, they are usually advised to ensure they have been properly vaccinated.. I personally wouldn't travel to Mexico without Hep A,B,C shots type thing... nor would I allow my son either to travel to such a plce..
Also out of the cases... We don't know enough about the people in particular to get an accurate reading.. Could simply be a Private School that 1 child contracted it, and managed to spread it..
I don't think allot of people are suggesting not to Vaccinate... But why do we need to do it at the earliest possible time.. There thousands of kids who don't ever get vaccinated and never contract the disease..
Point being that waiting till the age of 2-3 for the most part is probably not going to effect them a heck of allot... Especially if in a controlled environment like a stay at home mom..
If I hear of a kid on the block getting measles I would avoid them... As you can't pass it on unless you are actually showing symptoms.. | |
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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 81 | |
| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 1:03:46 AM | To allcrakedup,
Since I have already had one child who 'mimicked' the measles, this is not a experience I wish to repeat with my youngest child. I am more concerned about the effects long term of the 12 and 18 mos vaccine and the studies that weren't available the last time I had a toddler (about 10 yrs ago). I assure you my child is not at risk in the private daycare my daughter attends....since she is the only one under the age of 6. I was very young when I had my two boys and didn't question the protocol for vaccines or medications. I am alot more informed now and question everything regarding the health of my children. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 1:09:24 AM | | never heard of that, but vaccines make me nervous any how. when my son got his 2 months vaccine he ended up in icu for 8 days couldn't breath on his own and way so druged he slept the whole time. he had RSV, it is a respitory virus, they claim there was no connection but i still am nervous every time he needs another vaccine. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 8:40:19 AM | I'm all for *informed* vaccine choices for parents. The polar opposite CDC and the extreme anti-vaccine groups are not offering complete information.
Do I believe that the administration of vaccines has created "autism" in some children. Absolutely, and without question. There are simply too many parents of a previously developmentally appropriate child who documented the profound change upon the admistration of (especially the MMR with mercury) vaccine.
I do not believe that the push for earlier and more vaccines to be altruistic. It's about profit; not care.
I think it's also important to make a distinction between informed vaccine choice and medical neglect. One family can not vaccinate, and also not seek appropriate medical care, no developmental evaluation and fail to cultivate a healthy lifestyle. Another family can make a non routined vaccine choice and be very proactive in the care of their children's health.
I evaluate each vaccine against my understanding of risk/benefit and I research the actual timetable of need vs. convenience. My kids were both delayed in getting vaccines and selectively vaccinated.
There is no "right" vaccine choice. Vaccinating according to the schedule, no question, no research, and no information, accepting each new vaccine is a poor choice as is being completely against all vaccines. The best vaccine choice is made with intense research and evaluating that for your family, individual children and lifestyle. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 8:50:31 AM | midlyfechrysalis:
You are very wise, and well spoken.. Kudos to you... I agree with allot of what your saying in may different threads. And I really like the fact that you take a less personal view on the subject.
But you are absolutely correct in mentioning that there is a huge difference in Parental care of a child, that can lead to things like even Lice.. Lice can for the most part be easily stopped from developing in a clean home. Just as most major diseases...
Why do you think that in a Hospital they sterlize everything... To stop the tranmission of diseaes. Not simply for the satifaction. | |
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 8:57:45 AM | The only problem with saying that vaccines "cause" autism is that it doesn't explain how children who never received vaccines developed autism. If someone wants to solve that little riddle for me I'd really appreciate it. I think a large part of it is that we don't know what causes it, and it's easier to blame it on this that or the other, rather than just accept that sometimes bad things happen... and there doesn't always have to be a reason.
Simple. Autism, like cancer and other health challenges, are multi caused. My own research into vaccine and autism lead me to conclude that the administration of vaccines to at risk/genetically predisposed children can be a co-factor in the onset of autism.
My futher intuitive belief is that the early administration of multiple vaccines is a co-factor in adult onset auto immune disease and that as we continue to add vaccines to the childhood protocol, we will see more and more adult onset auto immune issues.
i would rather my kids have a small risk of autism than a small risk of contracting a deadly diease that could kill or leave them with severe brain damage or other complications.
also those that dont vaccinate their kids have a risk of spreading a deadly diease to other kids who were vaccinated but recieve large exposure to the sick child.
The problem with this thinking is that is assumes all childhood vaccines past, present and future are developed for the good of humanity. They are not. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy in which they are developed for "bad" but I'm acknowledging the very real truth that developing a vaccine that gets administered to most kids on a timetable is PROFIT and a huge amount of it.
Each vaccine should be evaluated individually for your own child, lifestyle and the *actual* risks of contracting the disease naturally. Also, the vaccine should be evaluated for efficacy in comparison to risk. The pertussis vaccine, for example, is very poor in effect. We are seeing many questionable at best issues with the chicken pox vaccine as well.
The development of vaccines is not an altruistic movement. It's a business. As such, it should be evaluated heavily and with a huge amount of skeptiscm towards its appropriatness for *all* families.
those that dont vaccinate their kids have a risk of spreading a deadly diease to other kids who were vaccinated but recieve large exposure to the sick child. .
If the vaccine in question works, "large exposure" matters not.
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| No clear cut answer
Posted: 12/21/2006 1:17:19 PM | | I spoke with my doctor and he said that there was no connection and then i spoke to a health care provider and she said there is a small connection. I think that the problem is that those in the health care field are getting the truth, whatever it may be, and then making their own decisions instead of telling us what the experts have said. JMO | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/25/2006 12:50:23 AM | my 2 cents, i have researched this topic a fair amount and what ive found most is two separate issues....
1. the mercury levels in the vaccine are quite high and quite variable within each bach ..ie if the bach wasnt properly shaken or mixed when it was separated, making the amount of mercury in each dose different (and yes this is true each dose is not tested and the levels of each dose vary)
someone stated in an earlier post that they have stopped putting mercury in the vaccines but as far as the research ive done on the subject, this is not the case
2. the MMR vaccine. there is a receptor in the brain that is responsible for higher brain functions, learning, relating, all those things that are compromised with an autistic child... the receptor for the measles virus in thebrain, and the receptor for that higher learning function are very similar in form and in *some* brains, when the MMR virus is given it recognises the receptor for higher functions as measles and attacks it, leading to autism....
this is quite extensively covered by ongoing research.
as well its been stated that only 1-2% of the population are affected, but i dare say a parent with an affected child that has quite obviously (but not provably) contributed to by the MMR vaccine, might feel thier childs compromised life is a valid reason to rethink and re test our vaccination programs
yes there are valid reasons to vaccinate, and children should be protected from these diseases as we learn, but we the more we try to control the amazing machine that is the human body, the more we backfire and create more dis-ease.
it would be nice if there were a more neutral source of neverending funding for research into these things than the food and drug associations of the various countries that have them
if you are a parent who thinks thier child has been compromised in some way by a vaccine, i would suggest (because what can it harm??) to perhaps see a reputable naturopath regarding a heavy metal toxins detox program suitable to the age of the individual,
do your homework tho! there are many *quacks* around and loads of disinformation around, but if you use your *common sense* and a balance of internet web searched (careful with those that are selling anything at all) and reputable medical journal research, you should be able to come up with a choice that sits well with you and doesnt compromise your childs right to a healthy life (including freedom from preventable disease)
one last note, in another thread i have seen Dr Mercola's site recommended.. i would suggest taking your bag of salt, but indeed visit the site as it has much useful information, but dont just take everythign that is said as gospel, engage that brain, use your common sense, and if you find information that makes sense, explore it on other sites and in medical publishings
i for one would have a difficult time with vaccinating willy nilly if i had any more children, but there is a strong need for it... so i think i would seek out as much reliable information as possible and learn as much about the reasons behind the fears as well as the reasons behind the vaccines in the first place
knowlege is power but dont forget the internet is full of lots of crap lol.... take ure salt, use your filters and good luck on your journeys! | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/25/2006 6:29:14 AM | I have a son with Asperger's that was not diagnosed until he was 9. Although there were symptoms from the time he was a toddler, they didn't errupt until this time. He was immunized and I would not change anything that I did. First of all, there is no solid proof that the immunization actually causes this. The coincidence of symptoms showing around the time of the shot maybe just that coincidence. It also may only react in some children that are genetically predisposed to autism in the first place.
I find that food definitely makes a difference, and I believe that all of the additives and preservatives that are in foods can greatly affect his behaviour. However, my younger child was vaccinated and eats the same things as his brother and he is "typically" developing.
I agree with the fact that knowledge is power, but would not be so quick to not immunize my child against some horrible and fatal diseases. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/25/2006 10:55:03 AM |
I find that food definitely makes a difference, and I believe that all of the additives and preservatives that are in foods can greatly affect his behaviour. However, my younger child was vaccinated and eats the same things as his brother and he is "typically" developing.
I agree food does make a difference... Which is why stuff like GFCF diet is making some a good headway into the Autism Community. I know of a dozen autism families off the top of my head... Once the introduction of the GFCF diet, the result change in calmness is astounding... And I would also try the diet with ADD, ADHD, even Aspergers.. As they are all closely related..
However though, you have 1 child who developed it, and one who didn't. Part of it is Genetic Disposition. The Vaccination Theory is also tied to Genetics. Essentially you have be Genetically Pre-Dispositioned for something. But in order for the gene to activate there needs to be an Environmental factor..
In this case the Genetic Disposition is considered the slower development of the immune system in order to fight off such things. And also the inability to rid the body of Heavy Metals for some.
So your 2nd son may be developing properly as is 99% of the child population at the time of vaccination, so it will have the desired effect. But your older son's immune system was probably not developed enough to take on the vaccination.
I'll be the first to say this is only a Theory... and should not be taken as fact. But there is strong evidence to show that by simply waiting an extra year before applying vaccination, the immune system is allowed to develop to a point of being able to fight things off properly...
I myself would never suggest not vaccinating your children... but I would encourage to wait an extra year... Why must they be done the moment they become of age.. Unless there is a pandemic of the virus in the area... Chance of your child contracting it before the extra year is up is very small, if not non-exsistant.. | |
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lmakey
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Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 90 | |
| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/25/2006 2:54:57 PM | As a parent of a son With a diagnosis in the Autism Spectrum disorder.. I have to say i saw prominent change in him after his 18 mo old shots.. However My other 2 children did not react the same way to the immunizations.. Very difficult subject | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 8:42:25 AM | Hi,
I have had an issue with this as well. A good friend of mine has decided not to vaccinate her children because of the information about links w/ autism and vaccines. I believe that the problem was what was the preservation put into the vaccine-a form of mercury- that was linked w/ autism. Here in Canada, that preservation is no longer used. Therefore, it depends what country you are living in and their regulations on the preservations used.
In my opinion, taking into consideration the preservations used in your country, it is far more of a risk NOT to vaccinate your children. Especially, if you're travelling to countries where polio is still prevalent or for for hepatitus ect which can be very serious.
My friends daughter is now two years old and because they have decided not to vaccinate her, they must now follow through with that responsibility. Ie: she must be very sheltered. Can't travel much, can't take part in many public activities with other children.
To sum it all up--the latest studies that came out about 2 months ago do not correlate vaccines and autism anymore. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 9:12:57 AM |
In my opinion, taking into consideration the preservations used in your country, it is far more of a risk NOT to vaccinate your children. Especially, if you're travelling to countries where polio is still prevalent or for for hepatitus ect which can be very serious.
My friends daughter is now two years old and because they have decided not to vaccinate her, they must now follow through with that responsibility. Ie: she must be very sheltered. Can't travel much, can't take part in many public activities with other children.
As I've posted, it's my belief that each child/family and disease should be evaluated in comparison the the individual vaccines.
I've known literally hundreds of families who make a wide variety of vaccine choices (from none to all). None of those who make a choice other than the recommended protocol limit the play, socialization, public activities of their children. If you look at the actual diseases, there is no need for shelter. Although I agree that completely non vaxed kids and travel is a bit more complicated. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 9:56:31 AM |
Here in Canada, that preservation is no longer used. Therefore, it depends what country you are living in and their regulations on the preservations used.
From what I've read... I agree, I do think it has less to do with the preservation, and more to do with the actual vaccination, IE; the disease the vaccination contains.
My friends daughter is now two years old and because they have decided not to vaccinate her, they must now follow through with that responsibility. Ie: she must be very sheltered. Can't travel much, can't take part in many public activities with other children.
I'm not sure why you think that by simply having the vaccination that you are all of the suddenly immune to such things? There are many cases of after the immunization is given people still contract the disease... Or in fact become deathly ill upon receiving it.
So as far as being careful.. I do think all parents need to be careful. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 3:16:20 PM | ''As mentioned in a previous post''
Todays modern industrialized nations enjoy a marked decrease in child hood diseases as a direct result of ''
sanitation measures - mainly in water -municipal water
sewage treatment plants
and in general good sanitation practices etc.....
The 20th century saw a marked ''decrease'' in diseases that afflicted humanity in modern
industrialized nations. especially diseases that afflicted children..............
These sharp marked declines came about mostly between the years of 1911-1950's
''Note'' This decline came well before the popular usage of todays immunizations (vaccinations)
So..... Todays medical monopoly, and the pharmacutical companies patting itself on the back,
........ lobbying lawmakers to mandate more and more vaccinations for both children and the general public.
With billions of dollars at their disposal, are of course going to present a rosey picture - with skewed facts and figures that hide and cover the devistation wrought on our society, as a direct result of their vaccines, and toxic concoctions............
there is little doubt that the mercury contained in these vaccinations as well as other ingrediants have brought a marked increase in autism in direct proportion to the publics use and acceptance of them...................... | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 6:03:04 PM | The biggest reason for the increase in the incidence of Autistic Spectrum Disorders is the ability of the Health care Comunity to diagnose it. It can be very difficult to diagnose a high functioning Autistic person if one does not know what to look for. They can be very verbal, learn extraordinarily well and have friends. You have to learn to see beyond. The behaviour... tantrums, stuborness, unwillingness to see another persons point of view, subseptability to addictions (yes, video games, alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex). Socially...egocentric, stands too close you, can't stand being alone, wants to isolate themselves for long periods of time, talks interminably (seems to repeat the story, or tells the story w/ unecesary other information) and can be charming one minute and mean the next, if you don't do as they please.
There has always been a taboo for not producing the perfect child. For your child to look perfect and behave perfect. Autism has existed for thousands of years, the Greek talk about it. Before, all imperfect people where hiden away, put in mental institutions and hospitals. We have become more open to it and we make an effort to diagnose ea/ case.
There are many factors that can cause a child to enter the Spectrum of Autism, a common one is Neo-natal hypoxia (lack of oxigen at birth) from long labors to umbilical cords being in a knott or around the neck. Some are caused by chromosomal rearrangements (3 to 6 % of cases). Some w/cognitive deficits and autistic behaviour show that a part of their chromosome 22 are affected. Many are hereritary, a father, mother, grandfather (the one that got into a lot of trouble when he was young because he never listened).
There are some good books out there, some give you good anatomical and physiological information, others give you good psycological information ( what to look for and what to do).
When our children are born, we want perfect children and expect that, it's always a shock when they develop something 'abnormal' or we are informed of an 'abnormality'. As parents, one has to accept the 'abnormality' no matter what the cause and move foward. Don't stop and bemoan what the causes are, go forth and enrich the lives of the children. Yes it can be difficult and completelly time consuming, but when you see the progress (no matter how minimal) you will know you are doing a good job. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 6:35:50 PM | there is alot of info out there to use to make informed decisions about vacc. our children, as a parent who wants to know all i can for my kids sake i began looking into this about 5 years ago, and the stuff i found scared me. first of all MERCURY has been commonly used in vacc. for years. this is the first biggie for me mercury is poison, and with the waters so poisoned and levels of mercury in fish so high why give it to our babies???
autism cannot be proven to b caused by vacc, but here is a nugget for thought, in china autism was unheard of, almost nobody had it, then being the great country we are we realized that children in china weren't gettin vacc and so we sent millions of vials of our vacc over there and 10 years later autism was at epidemic proportions in china.
some manufacturers are using alternative preservatives now insted of mercury but as for me an my kids we only get the vacc that are required by law to enter public school and i do that with the voice in back of my mind telling me that its probably not safe. get informed and stay informed  | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 7:02:28 PM | Some time ago ??? Canada has reportedly removed mercury from its vaccines?
It could possibly have been at least in part to a mothers activism
Activism that may have come about due to her painful experiance???
It may not be proper to reveal her name due to forum rules ?
In any event , here is her testimony
In her words
I can assure you, that death from vaccination is neither quick or painless.
I helplessly watched my daughter suffer an excruciatingly painful slow death as she screamed
and arched her back in pain.
While the vaccine assaulted her immune system.
the poisons seeped through her tiny body, overwhelming her vital organs one by one,
untill they collapsed.
It is an image that will haunt me forever. And I hope no other parent ever has to witness it.
A death sentence considered too inhumane for this countrys (Canada) most violent criminals.
Was handed down to my beautiful innocent, infant daughter.
Death by lethal injection.
Her daughter died just 24 hours after receiving DPT - OPV vaccinations | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 7:07:36 PM | venusdumilo:
I agree that part of the reason for an increase in Autism cases is the ability to Diagnose it. As even 10 years ago, a child with Autism to allot of of practitioners would of been chalked up as Mentally Disabled... and thats it.
However one extra thing to note.. Even now that the diagonstic training is there... And more readily accesable.. All the other disorders are also climbing... But Autism is still growing at a faster rate then the others..
ADD, ADHD, ASD, Aspergers, All of these are related in some form.. They are all whats considered Hidden disorders... meaning that by simply looking at a child you would not understand he/she has the disorder.. It's not till after the interaction that you fully appreciate it.
The stats currently show that 1 in 166 kids will develop Autism... Thats an astounding rate of development. And as much I would love to contribute all of that to simply a lack of experts to tell us it's there... I think there is more to it..
Even in the past 5 years alone there has been a huge increase in % of cases being dectected.. In areas where the diagonistic tools are readily available.. To me that would indicate more then simple lack of diagnostics..
This is why things like the Vaccination theory can't simply be shelved... as if it were something noticable from birth.. I would drop the Vaccination argument... but I have seen to many cases... My own son included... Before the age of 1. Developed normal.. as a matter fact ahead of other kids.. Was even starting to form basic words, and had a grasp on some abstract thought..
Then all of the sudden boom... he started to regress... Started to ignore myself and wife... You could see the level of attention change in him. He used to be very curious of people... Very affectionate...
But again around the age of 12-14 months.. This all of the sudden stopped... Why? I do agree with Genetics being key here... but for a child to litterally make a 180 in development... and almost seem to forget some things he had learned... And to see this happen to a variety of families... across all racial, locational, economic backgorunds.. There has to be more then simple genetics involved here...
There has to be a environmental factor.. It's like I'm sure there are many people who live in places like Alaska who have Hay Fever... Yet due to a lack of pollin, and hay fever producing elements... They prob no idea they have it.. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/26/2006 7:45:48 PM | The FDA's Vaccine Adverse Effects Reporting System
Receives about 12,000 - 14,000 reports of serious adverse reactions to vaccinations anually
Approx 1% of which are deaths from vaccine reactions.
The evidence is right out in front
Serious side effects from vaccine usage are occurring much more than the so-called ''rare''
occurrences that Medical people and the government are admitting.
Still many of these people think they can get up on a pulpit and promote vaccine saftey with
outrageous and dangerous lies.
So dangerous - that vaccines in the USA alone ,
account for an estimated 120,000 - 140,000 adverse reactions.
The FDA recently acknowledged that 90% of doctors do not report these severe reactions. And only one percent of these reactions are acctually reported.........
Thus ,these numbers only reflect a very small percent of all damage being done.
This practice is leaving a wake of human wastage, far beyond that which is admited or reported. | |
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| vaccines=autism?????
Posted: 12/27/2006 5:28:21 PM | To the best of my knowledge the signs of autism are most often there right from birth but it's only in hindsight when communication skills fail to develop 'normally' compared to other children the same age that parents can actually put all the pieces together.
The first sign is a failure to respond or bond with the parent when most babies are doing so well within the first three months of life.
I guess there are many causes but I tend to believe that blaming vaccines is a case of mis-placed cause and effect conclusions. | |
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