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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 5:16:11 PM |
i think it''s good that the op wants to not have sex. she's just doing what's good for her. right? wrong? yes.
People keep harping on this same point ad infinitum.
Of course it is her absolute right to choose whatever course of action regarding her sexuality as she wishes. Of course, every man who comes in contact with her should respect her wishes, and not pressure her to change her mind. Of course it's right to be respectful of all kinds of differences: all of us have peculiar individual wants.
But please, can many of us in this thread not understand that the OP's choice takes on larger overtones? Nothing happens in a vacuum. She's going to have to negotiate her wishes with every man she meets (and I hope she'll do it honestly), and what many men (and a few women) are saying here is that, however comfortable or right she feels, ultimately the question is: how does it play out with men? In other words, how successful is her approach going to be? And will it lead, as a foundation, to a likely successful long-term union?
BTW, I see she's popped back once, but hasn't said much. So I'll ask her directly: as per a previous post of mine, would you be willing (and think it's the right thing to do) to outline to every man you meet on a first date (who views you as a possible romantic match) to tell him what you've told us in your OP? | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 5:44:38 PM | What is so difficult about a woman's saying she wants to get better acquainted with a man as a friend first, before becoming intimate?
It sounds so much like a guy is getting mad because he thinks his toys are being locked up until he behaves himself, so he sulks and stomps away all steamed and petulant.
In all fairness, it may seem as if a woman in this position is saying, in effect, "if you touch me, you're bad and you are guilty of everything awful ever done to me by other guys, that's why I refuse to make love with you." OR "I'm scared if I make love with you before we have a commitment I can talk about to everyone I know, you will think I'm a slut and cheat on/or dump me."
so who has more say here ~
.. the woman who says "I don't have sex early in relationships, and I need a commitment first so I know he loves me",
.. or the man who says "I won't stay with a woman who wants a commitment or she won't have sex, because I don't want to accept those limits."
This is a tug-o-war. How to solve it? Choose people who share your views about sex. They do exist.
-------------------------------
If two people aren't in sync about this value, they probably don't really click well enough to survive a long-term relationship anyway, so what's the problem? | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 5:51:25 PM | Please kid yourself not. I care not if you are worth waiting for. if you make me wait, I'll recent you for it. A relationship is not about you controling me by restricting sex. Nor will i control you by restricting intimacy.
That would be relationship terrorism - both sides terrified they'll lose each other unless....
Give what the other wants and ask for what you want.
Comunication. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:03:17 PM |
so who has more say here ~
.. the woman who says "I don't have sex early in relationships, and I need a commitment first so I know he loves me",
.. or the man who says "I won't stay with a woman who wants a commitment or she won't have sex, because I don't want to accept those limits."
I appreciate that you're seeing this as a dilemma or polarized view between your average guy and your average woman, but the issue has to go beyond such easy definitions.
Really, it doesn't matter what works in the short-term. Anthing will or won't work to get a man and woman together: his smile; her figure; his income; his confidence; her (possibly amenable future mother-in-law --ha). But how will the relationship, such as it is, progress?
The real question is what are the agreements (vocalized or silently accepted or assumed) between the two in the OP's scenario? And I have a hard time brushing away the likelihood that any man who willingly accepts not only a lack of sex for an indefinite or lengthy period during courtship, but also a lack of simple spontaneous human affection and touch, will either get used to the harness of OTHER unilateral demands from the woman (after all, a first-date precedent has been set already on an extremely important matter), or will naturally rebel in all kinds of manners himself: withdrawal, anger, weak bargaining, and ultimately, leaving.
You see, I really don't see this as a noble choice by the OP (even if she DOES tell a man on the 1st date): I see it as a narcissistic, reactive decision based on being hurt in the past, and not realizing that it's an all but unworkable premise for a promising union. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:08:21 PM |
(Msg 184) for me sex is fun, sex is everywhere, sex is natural; my thoughts were just this: what would happen if i were to embark on something like this.
If the "something" you are thinking of embarking on is,
(OP)I myself am a very touchy, feely person so if I limit myself in how much I can come into certain contact with someone that I'm interested in persuing then that will show myself and them that I'm in for the long haul then what would happen would be negative.
My question: Is what I'm trying to do a functional and rational thing?
No, because as you explained in the opening post "for me sex is fun, sex is everywhere, sex is natural". If you enjoy sex and realize it is natural how could denying yourself and your partner sex be anything but negative?
You mentioned you felt sex took the focus off the real person. If by that you mean your perception of the person will be obscured then you must get to know the person sooner rather than later.
Hang with the person doing every day things as opposed to dating. Spend time at his place. Have him spend time at your place. For example, everyone eats dinner. Have dinners at each others place. Unless the guy goes out every evening spend each evening with him.
We already know you like sex. If the guy you're seeing also likes sex explain to him you want to know him before you have sex and explain to him how you want to accomplish that. In other words simulate living together whether that means you sleeping on his couch or him sleeping on yours. After a week you'll have a pretty good idea what type of guy he is.
The idea is to find a solution so you will be able to be touchy/feely because you are a touchy/feely person and if it leads to sex, that's fine. I think the posters who you find to be attacking you are just trying to say your approach is not a healthy one. You are not being yourself. You are not showing your true self to the person you want to be in the "long haul" with. How can anything positive come out of that? Just as it's almost universally understood one should not have sex if they do not want to the opposite must also be true and that is if you want to be touchy/feely and have sex then you must find a solution so that can occur.
Decide where you have to focus on the person and do so. If the guy is interested he will answer any questions. Explain to him your need to know/confirm certain things and if he's legitimate he will welcome to opportunity to assist you. The sooner you can be your touchy/feely self the better it will be for everyone involved, especially you! | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:18:45 PM | she wants a long-term relationship based on more than sex.
why start with sex then?
if i wanted a long-term relationship based on more than politics, i wouldn't take my date to a political convention.
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:19:15 PM | It really depends on the relationship. If you are jut dating and not in a committed relatioship then it makes sense. Sex is just part of the equastion, not the basis for the entire relationship. In my experience having sex to near the beginning of a relationship usually kills it pretty quick. I agree that it's important to get to know the real perwon first. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:28:59 PM | well first and foremost we are all adults ....(i think) and to have sex or not comes down to the attraction factor and how comfortable you are with someone...but to me it is something special between two people that care about each other...not just something you do because you are both there....sex is wonderful and i love it but it is ten times better when there are true feeling behind the encounter...so whatever the decision is has to be right for you  | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 6:38:28 PM |
I have a hard time brushing away the likelihood that any man who willingly accepts not only a lack of sex for an indefinite or lengthy period during courtship, but also a lack of simple spontaneous human affection and touch, will either get used to the harness of OTHER unilateral demands from the woman (after all, a first-date precedent has been set already on an extremely important matter), or will naturally rebel in all kinds of manners himself: withdrawal, anger, weak bargaining, and ultimately, leaving.
Gawd rory, go back and read her comments. She didnt say she wouldnt give human affection and touch. She didnt say how long it would take. She did say that she wanted to wait until she had gotten to know him enough to believe that there could be a real relationship. Yes she has a right to make decisions about her body and I am sorry if it bugs you that everyone says it ad finitum. But she does! Plain and simple. Obviously at some point the guy she is with will get the information and then its up to him if he is willing to give it a go and wait till she is ready. What else? It seems a lot of men on this thread have personalized this. She didnt say it to you. And its your prerogrative to give a girl a miss if she says it to you. She will move on to find someone who is willing to wait and you will move on to find someone who won't. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 7:14:42 PM | RE: Msg 210
Squirrly, the OP stated,
I myself am a very touchy, feely person so if I limit myself in how much I can come into certain contact with someone that I'm interested in persuing then that will show myself and them that I'm in for the long haul
How can a normally touchy, feely person show they're interested in a long term relationship with someone by deliberately not being touchy/feely? Isn't that what this thread is about?
The OP asks,
Is what I'm trying to do a functional and rational thing?
The only answer can be, "No". Is there anyone here who believes one should conduct themselves other than how they would normally conduct themselves? Isn't doing so the very definition of player, loser, liar, deceitful %^&*, no good bum, etc?
The point is that it is wrong for the OP to withhold being touchy/feely IF she really is a touchy/feely person. As other posters have noted she probably will not find a decent long term relationship because she is not being herself. It's not so much the fact she might withhold sex. She may meet someone who isn't interested in sex. In that case they will get along great until the time comes to be herself and she'll realize the guy was himself all along. She'll realize he may not like a touchy/feely person. Then what happens?
As others have noted sex goes along with the relationship similar to conversation. If one never spoke could we determine their ability to carry on a conversation? If one wasn't touchy/feely can we determine exactly what touchy/feely consists of? Is it simply holding hands in public or climbing ones leg? Is it an arm around ones waist or a deep tongue kiss in the middle of the mall? It's just as much for her sake as for the guy she's with to find out compatibility in that key area. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 7:22:09 PM | ^^^ she posted again msg 184
a lot of people had a lot of rude things to say like i was almost attacking them. its not like i'm saying not to have ANY physical contact everyone needs that, i'm just saying limit where it goes(how far its taken). i love the guys on here who try to make it seem like the "End of the World is Neigh" i'm not a born again virgin, i'm not a nun-in-training, i'm not anything but i girl looking for a new way to express myself my body is something i'm proud of and work very hard to keep in its great shape. i respect it and everything that goes into it and is done to it. for me sex is fun, sex is everywhere, sex is natural; my thoughts were just this: what would happen if i were to embark on something like this. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 7:56:05 PM | Mad~Hatter.....I could not have put it better!  (infact, your post are pretty right-on for me)
For those looking for casual sex...your life style and wants are just different, that's all. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 8:16:33 PM |
Gawd rory, go back and read her comments. She didnt say she wouldnt give human affection and touch. She didnt say how long it would take. She did say that she wanted to wait until she had gotten to know him enough to believe that there could be a real relationship
Again, squirrly, you're missing the deeper point I'm trying to convey.
Yes, I know she didn't say she "wouldn't give human affection and touch". But she did say she would definitely limit human touch. So, I ask you, without all the euphemisms, what exactly does that mean? He smiles at her while they're walking down the street and spontaneously puts his hand around her shoulder on date nember 8, snd she frowns and withdraws his hand? He kisses her on the cheek, and she turns away and smiles wanly and in coquettish fashion? She encourages him verbally and ambiguously in order to maintain his flagging interest, but again, when he is thus encouraged, and begins to caress her back, she says "I have to call it an early night, see you tomorrow" with a further encouraging smile?
It sounds silly and hilarious (not for the guy involved) to put it down like this, but how, exactly do you see the situation playing out. "Limited touch" is such a noncommital, ambiguous, covering-the-bases in a respectable way outlining, but it bears much closer scrutiny.
And what happens when, even if the guy agrees with this "limited touch" explanation on date #1, his interpretation of that differs from his? Maybe, then, the only answer is for her to draw up a detailed, comprehensive contract on exactly what body parts are to be touched, at what minimum time limits, how long each body part can be caressed, and the degree of desire realized from each episode.
I'm making this purposely ludicrous to show that even AGREEING to the nebulous "limited touch" doesn't solve anything. Desire is volatile, relationship progression is fluid and uneven, and she can interpret her own vaguaries to him in any way she sees fit.
She's much younger than either of us. Most guys her age (keeping in mind my "Yes, I know ... " paragraph above) are going to start out the "relationship" frustrated and confused, unless they really only want a friend or a bible school converser.
Yes she has a right to make decisions about her body and I am sorry if it bugs you that everyone says it ad finitum. But she does! Plain and simple.
sheesh, squirrel. The point is a valid one, as I've mentioned myself several times. (Note my three "of courses"). I bring it up because it's a GIVEN, there IS no debate on this point, and can we move on to what the deeper significance of her decision entails?
Obviously at some point the guy she is with will get the information and then its up to him if he is willing to give it a go and wait till she is ready
Ahh, but that's interesting. The "information" I'm seeing occurs, and in much of life, below the surface. Yeah, he'll get the information that she's serious about going slow. What is the deeper information flowing between the two during this period, though? Issues of other-validation at any cost have been set; sexual desires, preferences, styles, frequency, specific acts, etc.. are much more apt to be unilaterally decided by her, with an assumed and expected falling-in-line from him. After all, he had absolutely no trouble (apparently, though deep down we don't know) accepting the major 1st date one.
It seems a lot of men on this thread have personalized this. She didnt say it to you
Come on, squirrel. That's weak. I have strong personal opinions on many issues. Personal? Of course. Any idealistic desire I have here is for the benefit of the OP's future daters AND the OP herself. | |
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TRYN
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Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 214 | |
| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 9:51:19 PM | The Champ Is Here......You're right about building a trust with the women you know. They don't feel that pressure of the unknown......Is he after something else??
Anytime you're in Manitoba....... .....And no, "she's" not after anything!! 
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 10:03:31 PM | The Champ Is Here......You're right about building a trust with the women you know. They don't feel that pressure of the unknown......Is he after something else??
Anytime you're in Manitoba....... .....And no, "she's" not after anything!!
Well it just seems natural for me to build a trust with the women I know and meet. I show respect towards them and do not look at them as sex object trying to figure out a way to get into their pants.
When the sexual tension is not there, it makes things so much easier I say. And if by chance after the fact something does develop, then it makes the whole situation more comfortable. Because the respect and trust is already there and there were no ulterior motives to begin with.
Oh and in April I will in fact be in Winnipeg for the Women's World Hockey Championships for a week. | |
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TRYN
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Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 216 | |
| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 10:19:02 PM | Very true. If only there were more men interested in more than finding a "way into our pants"!
I thought the Women's Hockey was in March? | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 10:33:57 PM | I think with the fact sex is so out in the open nowadays more and more people have an expectation of either getting some from the person they meet or some women figure they have to. Sad but true. I myself have never had a one nighter ever, never picked up anyone at a bar or even online.
off topic: As for the Women's World Hockey Championships, it runs from Tue April 3rd-Tue April 10th at the MTS centre and a handful of games in Selkirk. I will be attending the MTS Centre games, 14 of them to be exact will be booking our hotel in January. Tryn I cannot contact you as your age restriction is set to 34, I am 37. Contact me.. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/6/2006 10:45:19 PM |
think with the fact sex is so out in the open nowadays more and more people have an expectation of either getting some from the person they meet or some women figure they have to. Sad but true. I myself have never had a one nighter ever, never picked up anyone at a bar or even online.
Aside from the off-topic chat in the rest of the post, and the self-promotion, this is priceless.
A "nice" guy who allays all the womens' justifiable fears (at times) with "never had a one-nighter, never picked up anyone at a bar" who's profile shows him pictured with no less than five scantily-clad different women in multiple photos.
As dear indigo rose says in her excellent profile reviews, -- beware those who defend their own "niceness" too much.
It's hypocrites like this who make it understandable that a 21 year-old woman (the OP) has to come online, courageously, and float a confused scenario to the rest of us. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 2:34:41 AM | (Msg 218) I think with the fact sex is so out in the open nowadays more and more people have an expectation of either getting some from the person they meet or some women figure they have to. Sad but true.
Many women on POF have expressed a strong interest in sex. It seems the reason they are hesitant to partake is due to not knowing the guy. They don't want to be used. I don't feel it's a matter of not having a physical/emotional desire.
"All" human beings have some sexual desire. It's built in. Before birth control and abortion and anti-biotics and STD tests a woman was rightly concerned about sex. The situation has changed today.
Available testing, birth control and the morning after pill have removed many concerns. The main thing they have to deal with, from what I read, is being used due to not knowing the man and that can be easily resolved by spending "ordinary" time together.
The typical go-slow dating ritual is no longer a necessity. Everything from instant communication to ease of travel to more free time than previous generations ever imagined it is possible to know someone quickly. Very quickly. People are not chained to household chores or limited to seeing a potential partner on a Sunday afternoon in the parlor.
If someone truly wants to know another there are very few reasons preventing that. The OP's concern is about knowing the person. Rather than refuse/withhold sex as she has suggested/questioned it is beneficial to deal with the reason she wants to refuse sex. She states she enjoys it. She feels it's natural. Why are people encouraging her to take that step, withhold sex which she enjoys, rather than deal with the reason she feels it's necessary to do that? That's what I and others, what I gather from reading their posts, take issue with. It is seeing someone making a decision that will most likely be detrimental to forming a relationship and seeing people encouraging her to do so.
As one poster commented it appears some people are taking it personally. It's not a matter of taking it personally. It's a matter of seeing a young lady making a harmful decision regarding a solvable problem and seeing others applaud/encourage her. She enjoys sex. She feels it's natural. To say, "Don't have sex" is not a solution to anything. | |
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mefein
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Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 220 | |
| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 2:47:35 AM | i would not agree with any of that. saying in advance what you will or will not do implies too much mercenary planning, and nothing to do with human contact, which we all need. ireland is a sexually repressed country with so called virgins flyin all over the place, extreme no sex rules etc "until it suits", then all of a sudden, no problem, when it gets them what they want.
callous in the extreme. no wonder men feel used too and respond in kind. me fein. | |
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mefein
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Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 221 | |
| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 2:50:35 AM | i would not agree with any of that. saying in advance what you will or will not do implies too much mercenary planning, and nothing to do with human contact, which we all need. ireland is a sexually repressed country with so called virgins flyin all over the place, extreme no sex rules etc "until it suits", then all of a sudden, no problem, when it gets them what they want.
callous in the extreme. no wonder men feel used too and respond in kind.
actually what often works is a sexual relationship with a person you get to genuinely like as a result of what started as casual but became serious. now thats nice and you know you are sexually compatible too, or dosent any of that come into it ??? frigid, no sex rules, keep them.
me fein. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 3:17:14 AM | Its nice to see people talking,....
on another thread , the question of telling some one ahead of time how you feel about sex on the first date, was wrought with many gentlemen saying they didnt like being told no sex on first date,.they were saying, that kind of honesty made them feel there was some thing wrong with the women,......even some saying at times they thought they were hiding some premiscuious side, amoung other things said,......
I'd like to know how you all feel about this?,.....
gentlemen which is it,...would you rather know ahead of time in talking,.how a women feels about it or wait till your into the relationship to know?,....
if its wait and them not say,. how do you feel about finding out your not compatable ,
and it taking a while to see this when , aposed to this if a woman tells how she feels about waiting or not ahead of time?
How much information is not enough and what is to much?,..
is it just sex that should be left a mystery,
I was thinking honesty is the best policy,..
I was thinking it saves time of dating the wrong people if you know up front where some one stands on issues and not just about sex,.......is there a waiting time to say other things as well?,.... | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 3:33:58 AM | RealityOfLife,
Depends on your approach. I myself tend to start talking about sex on the first date. Why not? A date is to a great extent simply an "interview" of a potential partner. I'll ask them all kinds of questions to better understand who they are. Sex is a part of who they are.
I personally prefer women who do not offer sex for a while. But I don't think that sex on the first date is something wrong. It depends on the male involved. Some males may actually want a woman to wait. Others the opposite. If both parties are unable to be expressive of what they want, the result is a confusing game of chance that may or may not be successful. | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 3:44:24 AM |
Aside from the off-topic chat in the rest of the post, and the self-promotion, this is priceless.
A "nice" guy who allays all the womens' justifiable fears (at times) with "never had a one-nighter, never picked up anyone at a bar" who's profile shows him pictured with no less than five scantily-clad different women in multiple photos.
As dear indigo rose says in her excellent profile reviews, -- beware those who defend their own "niceness" too much.
It's hypocrites like this who make it understandable that a 21 year-old woman (the OP) has to come online, courageously, and float a confused scenario to the rest of us.
Yeah as this person posted I am a hyoctite all the way because I somehow started to self promote myself...my bad...and saying that one has never had a one night stand...oh what lies...just like a woman saying that right? Geez, apologies all around to all. And to read one's profile to see it is stated who is in pics with you is not needed because when one associates Las Vegas and Showgirls they do not have a connection. Scantilly Clad women and sex do only.
I guess all men should be expecting sex from each woman he encounters, my god I just seem to have gotten my facts all mixed up..I thank you for telling me.
Oh ya and Rory has known me for about 30 years so he knows I am just shovelling the bs. Oh sorry that was another lie... | |
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| why i won't have sex
Posted: 12/7/2006 3:55:49 AM | "I show respect towards them and do not look at them as sex object trying to figure out a way to get into their pants."
That's the questionable line. It is a dual statement in that, while it describes yourself as not viewing women as sex object and not being interested in only sex, the dual-edged sword takes a quick slash at other men, of whom I know few, who view women as sex objects and try to figure ways to get into their pants.
Of course, it is probably simply an error in language. The fundamental attribution error. I suspect that your view of other men is that they are shallow and sex obsessed, and only care about getting into a woman's pants.
You have to be careful when you say such things, because it makes a generalization of men as a gender, and these men do not often exist outside of high school, maybe college, but certainly not in great numbers as adults.
Thus, it's self-promotion. At the expense of other "evil" men - who are the creation of your mind. | |
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