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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 12:20:31 AM | You're claiming that because this jesus character had an impact, he must have existed historically as a real person. The worship of Isis and Osiris was a very important thing for three millennia and we certainly wouldn't suppose that that means that Isis and Osiris existed. And by the same logic, whether Christianity was an important force for two thousand years is irrelevant to whether Jesus existed.
RDtoo
please read the bottom of my previous post... | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 12:46:36 AM | I did read it and went back again to re-read it. I am not in a position to answer that one as I am not one to who you refer. I have struggled with doubts however. I gave you advice way up the thread. If you talk to God sincerely and humbly, He will reveal Himself.
Charles Colson was an atheist who came to believe in God by reading C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity".
C.S. Lewis was an atheist who came to believe in God when he quit fighting it and considered the possibility.
Lew Wallace was an atheist who set out to write a book disproving Christianity. He was converted in the process of doing this and the book he wrote was "Ben-Hur".
Madelyn Murray O'Hair, famous atheist raised a son who ran off and became a Christian when he discovered his mothers atheism was unsound. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 7:56:05 AM |
You say we have no evidence that Jesus ever existed. Ok. Seeing that He is the most influential person in Western Civlization, it seems unlikely that He was a myth. Can you name one other person who has had even half the impact on world history as Jesus of Nazareth?
Good points except this one - general belief fallacy. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 8:01:54 AM | I suppose if I have to have faith, I will not let the doubts of this thread create my own doubt. But that's exactly the problem, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between truly having faith in a supreme being and being obstinate and strong headed, and the two seemed to be one to me.
On the other hand, when I read about the advice: "Ask God to reveal himself to you" For some reason, I felt a strange and very intense sensation in my heart. It could be anxiety, but for what I didn't know. I opened my heart and prayed to ask God to allow me to know his existence for certain, and give me strength to overcome any doubt I may have. And again, the feeling in my heart was intense. I'm never good at labeling my own feelings with a name, but I almost dare say that I was feeling joy. Joy of what, I have no idea - I have always repeatedly failed to explain my feelings in rational terms.
Anyway, I have to ask, how does Christians feel when they pray to God? How does God feel like? | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 8:10:38 AM | | I've asked this and found their answers wanting, for alas, none could answer my call. | |
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Posted: 4/2/2005 11:58:05 AM | Angie, people feel different things when talking to God. Sometimes there is exactly the feelings that you describe. Sometimes there is nothing. Sometimes there is peace, serenity, etc. It is not based on feelings, though they sometimes are in action. That is not something you can depend on. If you have a Bible, read the book of Psalms. They are basically prayers and run the whole gament of human emotion and are some of the most beautiful things ever written.
I am glad that you took the advice and I am surprised that you had such an immediate experience, as it sometimes takes a while. I would say beware of anyone who tells you that God talks to them all the time. We can never be 100 percent sure if it is God or our subconsious or something else. I would say if you keep on taking to Him, the path you should take will become clear. Feel free to email me if you would like. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 7:27:03 PM |
Can you name one other person who has had even half the impact on world history as Jesus of Nazareth?
Hitler of Poland
No matter how hard I try, I can't find anyone else who has impacted the world in such a manner... I'd say Hitler's impact was slightly more than half of Jesus'. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/2/2005 7:35:04 PM | Believing in God is not something someone can teach you.
Scare you into doing.
Ordering you to do or anything like that.
Believing in God is a very personal experience, a very personal belief. If you truely wish to, then perhaps instead of asking an online forum, go to a sunday mass and speak to the Priest/Pastor after and ask for an appointment to talk to him/her privately. They may not be able to tell you WHY you should, but they should help you begin your journey.
Best wishes | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/3/2005 12:45:06 AM | | Noodler, I would agree that Hitler probably impacted world history more than anyone else of the 20th century and we still feel this 60 years later. However the further we go along, the less we see of Hitler's impact. Jesus of Nazareth continues to affect world history 2000 years later. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/3/2005 9:05:17 PM | | Hatake, concerning your last post on here, were you expecting an answer or were you expecting silence? | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/3/2005 11:48:33 PM | Re: hatake on creationism.
Please do not judge christians by the creationists. It's a bit like Judging American Journalism by observing color commentary on "WWF smackdown!". (ok that was baiting. I'm sorry. It was such fun to say though)
re: proof of the existance of god.
This has been a widely discussed topic historically. The arguments why this is not available are compelling but not simple. I'd attempt an explanation but not only do I have no confidence in my ability to do it correctly, but it is simply beyond the scope of a 4 x 8 chat window. Catholics are particularly adroit at this one. If you feel the awnser is particularly improtant to you I suggest finding a priest and plying him with mocha cappucino, or possibly beer. | |
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meln88
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Joined: 9/16/2004
Msg: 37 | |
| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 12:45:53 AM | Dear Mr. Niceguy,
Consciounessly, you knew very well there is no creator God. Pure beings like "sotapan", "sakadagami", "anagami" and "arahants" don't entertain such belief. Could you be one of them? I wonder.
Meln | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 2:29:27 AM | Well...
I also do not believe in god...I believe in gods and goddesses of the wiccan egyptian mytholgy I cherish the earth,wind,water,and fire.....becuase all these thing I can see and feel always. I stopped believing in god a long time ago. I've read the bible many times and are left with more questions than answers. I enjoy religion of all types I watch movies about it documentries even other books and still more questions but no one to ask that will actually answer them. I do not knock on believers becuase they have a right to believe in what they want to believe.
My advice to you is to search yourself and find your answer there....
religion is not so much a choice...but a journey through your soul
-edger alan poe
brittxoxo | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 6:25:49 AM | Dear Angielah,
I first said the salvation prayer. I don't have it with me but it basically says that I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I had to ask the Lord to forgive me of all my past sins. He does does forgive all, but he doesn't forgive those who make fun of him. That is the biggest sin of all. You could be a murderer and become a Christian and be forgiven. That is how forgiving our Lord is. After I was saved by saying the Salvation prayer, I started going to church, and yes I phsically and mentally felt different. There was a joy that I had never felt before. It was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I was being filled with the Holy Spirit. It takes going to church regularely and lots of prayer, reading the bible, etc. to stay filled with the Holy Spirit. Satan will constantly fight you to stay away from God by putting bad thoughts and feelings in our heads. Satan wants me to be an unGodly person. He wants us all to be unGodly. Since being a Christian, I have mostly good thoughts. Thoughts of helping others. I have a great love for people and every aspect of my life is taken care of. I was given a second chance to go to school. I have been really sick, and had many accidents that should have killed or hurt me badly, but have overcome them. I have been poor and struggling and had unexplained money sent to me. I have also met some of the most nicest, caring people. When I was an athiest, I was suffering a deep depression and taking meds. Now I don't take any meds, and I am happeir now than I ever was. And for your last question, when we get to heaven we live there for all eternity with Christ. It is a beautiful place. There is no pain and suffering there. There is nothing to worry about there. No hunger, No thirst. It is the exact opposite of Hell. Hell is torcher and torment that never ends. The bible doesn't say to much about heaven, we have to see for our selves. I wish I could tell you more, but I am still a young Christian. I'm still learning the bible myself.
Sincerley, Jessica | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 40 | |
| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 8:22:17 AM | all you have to do is follow the truth..
it's a journey, and it ends up at the creator........along the way, you may change your mind, back and forth.
some don't like the truth, like satan.
he blames god for him following lies that don't work....... as far as i can tell, he will never change, he loves the lie, and that's what he picks to run his life and get what he wants.
lies don't work in the long run..... eventually they cause the final self-destruction. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 2:21:44 PM | | I wholeheartedly expected an answer. This was six years ago, and I still expect my answer. Why does everyone think that atheist want god to not exist, we all do, it would be wonderfull. Even if I don't get into heaven, I would like to simply know that a god existed. I have so many unanswered questions, and always will. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 5:54:23 PM |
all you have to do is follow the truth..
it's a journey, and it ends up at the creator........along the way, you may change your mind, back and forth.
some don't like the truth, like satan.
he blames god for him following lies that don't work....... as far as i can tell, he will never change, he loves the lie, and that's what he picks to run his life and get what he wants.
lies don't work in the long run..... eventually they cause the final self-destruction.
there is no truth, only perspectives | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 6:56:12 PM | | Hatake, I will gave you the same advice I gave others. If you want to know if God is there, ask Him. But if you demand an appearance or ask snidely, you will only get silence. If you ask humbly as a truth seeker and are persistent, He will answer. How the answer will come, I cannot say. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/4/2005 8:09:13 PM | | Any religon has to start with an open mind. Also, I am not as convinced of evolution as some , because when it comes to the begining of life, I interpret evolution as to mean that a life form changes or improves /or adapts to survive (over a long period of time). amino acids and cells,dna, and atoms didn't just randomly materialize to create these life forms. someone HAD to create them in order for evolution to start from. If Evolution so sound , scientists wouldn't be STILL searching so desperately for the ''MISSING LINK" which theoretically would tie human physiology and ape physiology together. Last I heard the "missing link" is still missing , because I don't think it exsists. I don't mean to sound fruity , but if you truly want to know answers, there is no substitute for going straight to the source. You may have to ask or pray more than once or twice. I would look upon it as a journey. If you keep asking,you will eventually find answers. I believe that God isn't as quick to cast people into hell as some believe, because Christianity is based on forgiveness, that is one of the main philosephies of Christianity. That is why it tells in the bible that God loved the world to the degree that he allowed is son to be crucified, in the name of forgiveness for humanity. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 5:18:09 AM | I'm also an Atheist.
My first memory of the realization that I had never and would never believe in God was while attending Sunday School aged 4 or 5.
I respect others religious beliefs, in the same way I respect thier political views. I rarely get the same respect for my lack of faith back however.
The reason I don't believe is simple. I find the whole idea patently absurd.
Now, I always enjoy a discussion, and two topics of conversation I can always rely on for an empassioned debate, and often crop up are religion and politics. So, in order that I know what I'm talking about, I've done my homework on both.
In both cases, I am constantly amazed that it is extremely rare, despite being certain of thier beliefs, that people are knowledgeable, in any depth, about the subject they debate.
Usually they can only repeat (often wrongly - or commonly believed, but proven wrong) anecdotes or explanations that made sense to them, as proof of thier point, but have no concept of the history or circumstances or evidence or anything else surrounding what they say.
For example, I am often told that nothing stated in the Bible has ever been proven to be incorrect. This is a very widely touted saying. However, apart from the Bible having many instaces where it directly contradicts itself, certain things, like the global floof of Noah - have been disproved. There was no global flood. We know this from examining soil layers. A wooden boat of the dimensions in the Bible would collapse under it's own weight.
Here's food for thought:
The Bible condems incest, rape, adultery and intercourse with animals - which most people agree with - but it also condems intercourse during menstruation, fornication, celibacy, naming sexual organs, nudity, masturbation and birth control - which are often convenienty forgotten about.
Interestingly the Bible is fine with or encourages prostitution, polygamy, levirate marriage (marrying your brothers widow), slavery, sex with slaves, concubinage, treatment of women as property and early marriage (at 11). Hmmmmmm. Just so you know - it also condems wearing clothes of mixed fibres, eating or drinking pork, lobster and milk - neither can you have a blood transfusion.
Here is an excellent quiz on what the Bible says
http://www.bettybowers.com/biblequiz.html | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 8:04:52 AM | Jerry, you have told me to ask God to reveal himself, so I suppose, that God will prove to me that he exists.
Did not the bible preaches not to put God to the test? | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 8:09:44 AM | I didn't say test God....I said ask him to reveal himself to you. For example, Gideon was in the same situation. He asked God to prove that Jhvh was speaking. So when Gideon went to bed he asked God to show him a sign.
God told Gideon to put a fleece on the ground.
The next day when Gideon woke up, he found that God had given him a sign. The ground was completely dry, BUT the fleece was completely soaked with water. Thus, proof that Jhvh Sisqiyou had spoken to Gideon.
Of course you must also remember before this fact, Gideon had thought of himself as a small common man. Well after the fact, as I'm sure you have studied, Gideon raised up an army and defeated the enemy. No longer would he be considered a small man. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 8:18:24 AM | I have been wondering about the Bible's teaching ever since I first opened its first pages. The more I read, the more questions generated in my head. THe more I ponders on these questions, even more questions were generated from these questions. I suppose this is what it means to become a Christian - to get one's own answers at the bottom of the bible. But how can anybody be sure that the answers are the truths, which are ultimately what I'm seeking?
A girl who claimed that she's christian, told me that she believes Jesus and God are the same thing, and that Jesus is only a mortal version of God. However, it's in the bible that Jesus and God are not the same person. Jesus preaches that only God is good, anybody else, including Jesus, is less than a good teacher. Also in the bible, Jesus has stated that his seat is to be by the right side of God. So obviously the two have different identities, however the girl stubbornly stuck to her own beliefs, telling me that she's the only one who truly understands the bible.
Makes me wonder. But then again, I suppose if God made us in his own image, then we should at least have some faith in our interpretations of the Bible, and trust that we'll find the answers in the end since as long as God is with us, nothing is impossible, right?
I'm beginning to see how a Christian would think, now. I can't take that leap of faith, though; since I'm seeking the truth and absolutely despise self denials and avoids self-inflicted illusions, I'm unwilling to blindly believe in something that might not exist after all. But I'm still willing to keep an open mind, and I'll begin look deeper into Bible studies, as well as other religions that have existed in the human history and are is practiced to day. I will also seek God on my own, and practice the art of praying. It's strange, but there's a tiny, irrational part of me that still believes in his existence no matter what doubts have been thrown my way. | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 8:20:04 AM | I admit that I'm still curious if the self-claimed Christian will actually give his purse in response to hatake_sensei  | |
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| help an atheist
Posted: 4/5/2005 8:34:27 AM | John 7:16 "Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.' "
John 14:24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but The Father's who sent me."
John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."
John 5:19 "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..."
John 5:30 "I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me."
John 8:42 "Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.' "
John 15:2 "My Father takes away every branch in me that bears not fruit; he purges it; that it may bring forth more fruit."
John 8:31 "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God”
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.' "
She must not have read it... | |
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