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Kra961
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Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 176 | |
| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:20:34 AM | How would dating a Religious Zealot be all the different from dating a Militant atheist?? There are extremes in everything in this case a belief is a belief its neither good or bad it simply is.
Though on a side note it is amusing watching a believer and a non-believer trash each other over something that simply cannot be proven in either case since neither understand its a belief which is just like an opinion everyone has one and nobody has the only correct one. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:41:37 AM | Thanks for the assistance Kearnan.. but the futility appears almost overwhelming, lol..
Jpublic:
sassyaquarius says "I hate to break it to ya, but you DO in fact have a belief on the subject of God. See, with matters that cannot be proven, all we have are beliefs"
--->I guess you can use semantics, but I don't see the point. Using your logic however, that would mean we all have a belief in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny No, by the same logic I KNOW that santa and the easter bunny don't exist.. it was proven to me at the age of about 7. We have no proof regarding God, therefore all we have are beliefs.
This is my favorite! God hasn't been disproven? You're right, but what's your point? Do I really need to repeat myself?? Since God hasn't been proven/disproven.. we are all free to believe as we wish..
In case you aren't aware, it is impossible to prove a negative, so it's not up to anyone to DISPROVE that God exists, it's up to someone to prove he DOES exist. Which neither side can achieve... so again.. beliefs are all we have..
And regardless of their content, it is the one thing we ALL have in common ;)
There is not even any legitimate point in debating interpretations of "God's word" when there is not even any proof that a god exists. Personally I don't believe that the bible is the infallible word of God, so you won't get a debate on that from me, but I still believe in God.
Yes, actually it is funny when the person's "truth" involves an invisible flying man in the sky. Which is your interpretation of someone else's conception of God, it has no resemblance to what I believe therefore I do not see the humor.
To mock another's belief imo only highlights your own uncertainty ;)
However if you feel you are able to prove the invisible man thing, thus making atheists sound silly, please do tell. If you are privvy to some information that proves his existense (other than one of thousands of different versions of fairy tale books), I will admit I was wrong. Not once did I say I can prove God exists, that would be ludicrous. Nor do I think the bible is proof.. equally ludicrous imo. I believe in God because I have had personal experiences that have proven it to ME... I give others the right to believe as they wish and expect no less in return.
It is infinitely interesting to me how many atheists reject the God of the bible due to the heinous things written in it.. throwing the baby out with the bathwater and almost in some strange fashion, lending credence to the view.. but hey.. this is Jmo :) | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 2:44:08 PM | There's no concensus on what constitutes a religion but typical characteristics of religion include reverence and/or belief in a deity/deities (or some other significant figure), an explanation of reality, a description of the role we play in that explanation of reality, a social structure built around these beliefs, imposing some form of moral standards on its members, and performing rituals for worship such as prayer, dancing, or singing. Atheism requires none of these things.
Ok, your deity/deities are Darwin, Socrates, Descartes, and many others. Your explanation of reality is based on their writings, theories and thoughts. The same goes for the role we play in that explanation of reality.
And I'd say that the current "take God out of this society", as well as the repeated atheist attacks on anything that even smells like Christianity is an attempt to build a social structure around your beliefs.
Perhaps your religion does not revere an "invisible guy who can fly", but certainly revere a lot of dead guys.
Now, if you want to believe in them, you're certainly within your rights. However, every time you mock a Christian, you're just showing that same lack of tolerance that you decry. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:10:00 PM | | As an athiest, I don't mock religion. I never go around saying people who believe in God are stupid. However I do believe religion is something that should be questioned and scrutinized. Just like how a lot of people question and scrutinize the theory of evolution. "don't believe everything you read" should apply to everything including religion. Just because it's in a book that was written 2000 years ago doesn't mean I believe it. If others want to believe that, that's their bussiness. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:22:23 PM | I never go around saying people who believe in God are stupid.
Well, you're a rare atheist indeed. Because most atheists (including some in this thread) are doing exactly that.
If others want to believe that, that's their bussiness.
Which makes me ask why this pressing need to question other people's beliefs, when they're not questioning yours (you atheists, I mean). I mean, if others want to believe that God is, well, God, and they're happy that way: Why the need to crash uninvited in their conversations? Why the need to "convert" people to atheism? Why the need to prove that this God that does not exist is "evil", "arrogant", etc.?
You know, sometimes I think they're that way because, very deep, they think it's more probable that in the afterlife, God will accept an "I was wrong" instead of an "I was bad".
And finally, yes, there are atheist zealots. And they're a lot easier to set off than Christian zealots. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:31:18 PM |
Which makes me ask why this pressing need to question other people's beliefs, when they're not questioning yours (you atheists, I mean). ....
I think they're that way because, very deep, they think it's more probable that in the afterlife, God will accept an "I was wrong" instead of an "I was bad".
It sounds to me like you are questioning his beliefs | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:39:27 PM | It sounds to me like you are questioning his beliefs
I don't question their beliefs. I question their need to push their atheism on others (yes, I know religious people also do it, but at least they're not hypocrytically stating "I don't do that"). Besides, I've seen in many atheists this mindset that simply not being an atheist is paramount to questioning their beliefs, so explaining their viciousness.
Besides, look at it this way: If religious people are wrong, there is no afterlife therefore there is no problem. However, if atheists are wrong, and there is an afterlife, well, there will be a lot of nastily surprised people downstairs. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 4:44:15 PM |
And finally, yes, there are atheist zealots. And they're a lot easier to set off than Christian zealots.
You must not watch the Sunday morning Christian shows which have attacked tele-tubbies and assigned the wrath of God to disasters such as hurricanes & 9/11 as vengeance on a sinful nation. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:02:42 PM | "Besides, look at it this way: If religious people are wrong, there is no afterlife therefore there is no problem. However, if atheists are wrong, and there is an afterlife, well, there will be a lot of nastily surprised people downstairs. "
This is what is known as "Pascal's Wager" Hey I could be wrong, but so are all those people who worship other religions and all those people who worshipped the hundreds of other gods before Christianity.
Belief cannot be forced and Believing "just to be safe" is quite the insult really and if an all knowing entity exsists he'll have no problem seeing through that. and whose to say god wouldnt reward people for their honesty?
Logically I would hope god (if he exsists) would judge people on their actions and ethics not whether or not they believed in him or not.
because if that's the case for an all knowing all seeing all powerful entity he's pretty insecure.
As an athiest I'm not making an absolute claim that god doesn't exsist (no athiest can make that claim) I'm simply choosing not to believe in one unless I see evidence. I don't think that makes me an "athiest zealot" | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:06:15 PM | "When it comes to religion, I really don't think there's a right or wrong religion. Each has something good to offer."
Normally I would agree with that, and I have agreed with philosophy in the past, but when I saw the laws being passed that not only forces religion onto me, but makes me pay for it through my tax dollars, I realized that it was time to bring religion under control.
Should religion be banned? Of course not! I firmly believe that people have the right to worship or not worship as they see fit. Just do it on your own time. I don't want someone else's superstitions pushed down my throat and the money to do it yanked from my pocket. The same goes for public schools. Kids can pray anytime they like, but it shoudn't be forced on them and made a requirement that we pay for that "prayer time", or "moment of silence" (which is the same as calling creationism "intelligent design" to sneak it through the school system) through our taxes.. Forget that if it weren't for the religious fanatics who oppose stem cell research, we may be closer to a cure for several diseases.
Keep your invisible friends, give them your real money, but keep those who choose NOT to believe out of it and don't hold back real scientific progress in the name of the sky-daddy.
People think I'm anti-religion. I'm not. I'm anti-being forced into beliefs I don't share.
Finally, people argue that religious orginazations do a lot of good things to help people. This is true. There are several that are wll known and provide help during troubled times. But I am willing to bet nobody here, or anywhere else, can name even ONE thing that a religious orginization does that a non-religious orginization can and does do on a daily basis. You don't need a faith in God to help people, you just need to be a decent human being. I help many people out in a variety of ways, but not so I can get into heavenor avoid hell, but because I believe in the importance of life and that people should do all they can to help others. I don't need an invisible friend to carve the way to do that onto stone tablets. Those things are already born into the minds of decent people.
Oh, and Miss Empress...you said:
Um wow...okay religious zealots are bad but people who are anti-religious zealots are equally as bad. i.e. JPubLLC.
Everyone is free to believe what they want, like what they want, prefer what they prefer but disrespecting others is not cool."
I have no problem if you consider me bad, and I agree, and always have, that people have the right to believe as they choose. The problem with your comment that I have is the last sentence about disrespecting others not being cool. So when Christians keep threating others with eternal torture in hell because they don't share the same beliefs, you think that THAT IS respect, and that it's "cool"?
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:07:47 PM | Rock hunter:
yes, there are atheist zealots. And they're a lot easier to set off than Christian zealots.
Well, it took hurricanes and 9/11 for them to explode. Atheists need a lot less than that. This point of yours is grossly over-generalized and could be argued from the other side quite nicely, but instead I will ask: what is with your desire to make one type of zealot sound worse than another? If it has no reflection on you, why would you even care.. ? | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:54:59 PM |
These zealots make it their mission to "turn" you to the "light" rather than build a reasonable relationship.
In every "group" of people there is a fringe element. Religious, political (yeah picked the two biggest hot buttons...haha).
In my (limited) experience, it's those that make the most noise (and get the most press...the loudest usually DO...) that aren't a member of a group to promote the group's mission statement, doctrine...it's those who will join most anything for the sole purpose of promoting their "own" agenda.
Humans have social needs, belonging and being accepted. Most humans accept that and are glad to have their socialization needs met. It's a good thing, they are happy to share common interests, philosphies, beliefs, etc. and share interaction and fellowship.
I am a person/woman of faith, it is my own, my church membership isn't totally reflective of my personal beliefs. I don't make it a bone of contention where my personal beliefs don't line up with the church I am a member of.
I am friends with, dated and even married members of other churches/faiths. I AM a strong and unwavering proponent of tolerance. Meaning that I accept an individual as they are. That is an integral component of who I am.
They either accept me or not, like me, love me. If it's based on who I am or not, I'm still good with it.
There are many things we could think about and think are missing and be sad about. I can't say I don't ever, but I don't dwell on it.
I know what makes me happy and what I enjoy and that's accepting, embracing and loving the people that I interact with. Whether they embrace my beliefs, philosophies or opinions...isn't a factor. Not a requirement at all, and it makes me a very happy person!!
Loving and caring about another person is the greatest blessing that life has to offer.  | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:58:25 PM | Hey wolphman. I just got back from a business trip and catching up on email and forum threads. I just saw your post that said: "Reading this thread it's easy to see how religious wars get started."
I don't think this thread really applies to the type of religious disagreements that started almost every war in history. It's turned more into a belief vs. non-belief type argument in general. Perhaps I'm wrong (and I never piss and moan about someone who corrects me when I'm wrong - I look at it as learning), but I don't recall any war ever being started because one side believed in his/her specific god vs. someone who didn't believe in ANY god. Wars usually get started because they want to have their god have a "cage match" with the other god to see which god "wins". (Of course nobody ever wins....everybody loses, especially the innocent ones caught in the middle that don't believe in either of the gods they are fighting over, or don't care which god might be better.)
Some wars are needed to free people who are taken over by agressive countries, but it's sad when 2 countries kill each other's people off just because they have opposing views on their god, or even worse, their interpretation of what their SAME god means in the same "Good Book". That book doesn't sound so "good" to me.
What a sad excuse to kill and torture innocent people.
Have a good one and take care. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:21:00 PM | rockondon...I loved your post!
In part, you said:
"If it [atheism] was a religion, then that same reasoning would make not believing in santa a religion, not believing in leprechauns a religion, not believing that humans have wings is a religion, and not believing that milk jugs created the universe is a religion. Do you consider yourself a member of a billion different religions - where every time you do not accept an unsubstantiated claim automatically makes you a member? If atheism qualifies as religion, then 'religion' is a meaningless term."
How true. But more importantly, it reminded me that I didn't give my weekly contribution to the church of "The Universe wasn't created by a Sony Playstation" I'll get that check out in the mail today! Thanks for reminding me.
And for the record, I agree that there are atheist zealots. I am not one of them though. I've believed in go and religion for most of my life, but changed that opinion after doing some actual research, rather than just believeing there was a go because someone told me to believe it. So unlike a zealot, my views change based on by last best reasonable information.
I do have my opinions on things, but this is just one of may things I talk about, and I speak FAR more on other topics that I do about religion, or lack thereof. I actually did know an atheist zealot years ago. He was so annoying. He could talk of nothing but the topic of how stupid the concept of god was. I had to start avoiding him. It's one thing to be opinionated on a variety of subjects, but completely different to think of nothing but that particular subject.
Personally, I would prefer to talk about women and day of the week. I "may" be a zealot when it comes to women, and I'm not afraid to admit it!
And to Kra961 who wrote:
"Though on a side note it is amusing watching a believer and a non-believer trash each other over something that simply cannot be proven in either case since neither understand its a belief which is just like an opinion everyone has one and nobody has the only correct one."
There actually is a little difference. When a believer debates an atheist, one of them is basing all of their information on a single book, while the other is basing his argument on facts gathered by many years of intense research and study done by those who decided to think critically rather that just follow the herd because someone thousands of years ago said it was so. So I'm glad you find it amusing, but a debate from someone who claims Santa is real vs. someone who believes Santa is a myth would be equally amusing. That doesn't make both sides the same as far as how valid their opinions and/or arguments are.
Ahhh, and finally to sassyaquarius, you say: " I KNOW that santa and the easter bunny don't exist.. it was proven to me at the age of about 7. We have no proof regarding God, therefore all we have are beliefs."
You said it all right there! Thank you.
You know Santa and Mr. Bunny don't exist because it was proven to you. I'm not sure HOW it was proven to you, but I'm guessing the fact that nobody has ever seen Santa and Mr. Bunny might play a part. You learned at age 7 not to believe in silly things that you can't see, yet somehow out of the 3 e3qually silly things, you decided to still believe in one of the invisible myths that nobody has ever seen.
You say you have no proof that Santa an Mr. Bunny don't exist and that's why you don't believe. So I MUST know....what proof do you have that God exists? And don't quote a book, since there are many books about Santa and Mr. Bunny, or a "faith", since I know many who have faith that Santa is real. I mean proof. The same proof that you use to say there is no Santa or Mr. Bunny. Nobody has ever been able to give that proof before, so I very much look forward to yours, so that I can once again be a believer.
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:29:11 PM | | I guess that it would be no worse than someone who says "Okely dokely" to everything, or someone who wants me to believe EVERY new piece of Scientific news that comes out on the internet, rather than letting me see which ones stand the test of time. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:38:16 PM | | I'm finding just the opposite. I don't know if it's indicative of society at large or not but I find that spirituality is in vast decline. Most people do not even discuss faith let alone acknowledge having any. I find that just as unattractive as those religious zealots many find so overbearing. A lack of any spirituality, fairly or not, signifys to me a lack of morals and a pervasive "anything goes" attitude. Those bereft of any sense of spirituality are not persons I'd particularly care to share time with, let alone my life. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:43:28 PM | "Have you ever had the unfortunate experence of dating a woman(or man) who was a complete religious zealot? "
No, those people hate me, thank God. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:14:43 PM | Where are these religious zealot's you speak of? I would love to date a strong Christian woman. Catholic preferably but not exclusively. Any Christian or Jewish woman of dating age who is strong in her faith is of interest to me.
A large part of our mission as Christians is to help others find Christ. Some are very aggressive in this. Others are more passive. I have friends of many Christian denominations. Many who are active in missions. I don't know of anyone who is trying to "force" anyone to "believe" anything. The invitation is extended. It's up to the individual to decide. That's free will.
How many of you agnostics or atheists have tried praying? Really praying. Do so for a month and you might be surprised at how you feel about God at the end. It won't cost you anything. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:18:55 PM | Oh rock....how sad.
You said:
"Which makes me ask why this pressing need to question other people's beliefs, when they're not questioning yours (you atheists, I mean).
First, as atheists, we don't have beliefs to question, but more importantly, how can you dare say we don't get questioned? We get ridiculed on a daily basis for not believing in the invisible man in the sky. You seem to think it's okay for a Christian to bash an atheist, but if the tables are turned, we are evil human beings. How petty and arrogant of you. And yes, I do on occasion mock religious people, but I do so NOT because I think it's amusing, but because after being mocked daily by the self-righteous religious folks, sometimes you can't just sit back and let them piss all over you. You need to do what they do. They have no problem telling me I'll be tortured in hell for all eternity, why should I walk on eggshells to not offend them? The correct answer is that there IS no reason!
You go on to say:
"I mean, if others want to believe that God is, well, God, and they're happy that way: Why the need to crash uninvited in their conversations?
Why? Because they are not only pushing their views on me, but they are using my hard earned money in the form of tax dollars, to pursue that belief they have. As I have always said, everyone should have the right to believe as they wish, but DON'T make ME pay for that out of my pocket!
I love the argument:
"they think it's more probable that in the afterlife, God will accept an "I was wrong" instead of an "I was bad".
First of all, we don't believe in an afterlife. BUT, assuming there IS an afterlife, let me ask not just you, but anyone who cares to answer. Do you think that if I don't believe in god and I go in front of him after I die, and he's real, that he would appreciate the fact that I was honest and said that I had no faith becuase you gave me no reason, or if I pretended to have faith, even though I didn't. After all, you think if there is a god, you can slip one over on him and if you act like you believe but you really dont, that he'll be fooled? If you think that, and there IS a god, you can plan on Hell! If there is a god, I would like to think he would prefer that I be honest with myself, and not try to "play him" like a Ted Haggard or someone equally as bad.
And of course, the most hypocritical argument from many from Christians and others:
Why the need to "convert" people to atheism? Why the need to prove that this God that does not exist is "evil", "arrogant", etc.?
I don't know where you hang out, but I've NEVER had someone try to "convert" me to atheism. Atheism, in it's own definition, is a NON-BELIEF. I have had plenty of people try to convert me to their own personal religion, but atheism isn't a religion, and you can't convert someone to something they don't believe exists. I can knock on your door and tell you about the virtues of Allah, Jehova, a sacred cow, etc..., and try to change you, but what would be the point of knocking on your door to try and tell you that the tooth fairy is not real? I would have nothing to gain from that. With religion, you ask for money for your church. What am I gonna do? Ask you for money to NOT believe something? That is a ridiculous argument.
Religious folks seem to think they will have a place in heaven if they convert others. What does someone who has no belief in any god or religion benefit from convincing you of that? Nothing.
I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. My one and only problem is that although people should have the right to believe whatever they want, I don't want that pushed on me or charged to my bank account.
It is really as simple as that. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:34:10 PM | Well...this thread is not what I was expecting. Perhaps its mislocated. Maybe should be in the religious/spiritual section. AND I was going to say something funny until I read what anokagrassland said. Sooo....
I do pray...just not to the god of Abraham. I am not a zealot. I have friends of many spiritual paths...and they are wise to not try to influence me. Some say they pray for me. Thats cool. I do the same for them...but I pray for their happiness and to be happy with who they are.
Something rather sneaky happened to me recently. I received a notice in my po box congratulating me on winning the bible I supposedly applied for at the county fair....scratching my head....pondering...hmmmmm. Not only my name BUT my correct po address. hmmmmm.... next, I get a package full of cd's about christian dogma...once again...correct po box and name....hmmmmm. FINALLY...I get a PHONE CALL. I get home and find a recorded message asking me if I liked the info sent to me. Well I'm past hot now. Its become ridiculos. The only person who I know of who is christian who has all that information at their finger tips is the preachers wife...who also happens to be our postmaster in this iddy biddy town I live in.
I will go to my grave for anyone who is being persecuted for their religious/spiritual beliefs. Please be so kind as to stand up for me next time they light the stakes up.
Thank you for your time. Bye
ps...Harry, I love you. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 8:36:42 PM | I made the STUPID mistake of actually marrying a religious zealot (Seventh Day Adventist.. look it up and read for yourselves).
I thought I could be accepting and non-judgmental. Well, I could, but she could not. We ended up divorcing 2 years later. That'll teach me to rebound!!!
The constant cacophony from her and her friends about "end times" and "6,000 year old" earth, and how Ellen White was the prophet, and why I shouldn't eat deer and on, and on. Oh, and then there was the all day Saturday worships, the Monday bible classes, the Wednesday women's groups, and who knows what other group meetings that were held.
Why did I marry? Because she was not as fanatical at the time... I later found out she was that fanatical before we met for many years, and she had a temporary lapse in her activities while we were dating. She proposed to me... that should of been my first clue.
Never again will I date a religious zealot. Maybe the biblical saying about being unequally yoked should be considered. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:10:00 PM | Anokagrassland:
Bravo to you for eloquently, calmly and rationally espousing what is the mission (or should be) of Christianity. Those who profess it and live it (rather than profess by word only and not by action or proof of life) do not accost people on the street and brow beat them into acquiesence or a submission of acknowledgment. They merely "go between the hedges" and share the story of their faith, plant a seed and move on; allowing the fruit of their labor to be seen in how they live and conduct themselves. It is indeed free will for anyone to accept or dismiss God. | |
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| Dating a Religious Zealot is a challenge
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:16:59 PM |
I am a person/woman of faith, it is my own, my church membership isn't totally reflective of my personal beliefs. I don't make it a bone of contention where my personal beliefs don't line up with the church I am a member of.
I am friends with, dated and even married members of other churches/faiths. I AM a strong and unwavering proponent of tolerance. Meaning that I accept an individual as they are. That is an integral component of who I am.
They either accept me or not, like me, love me. If it's based on who I am or not, I'm still good with it.
Wow...now those are words to live by. If more people believed like this, then there would be no need of sitting here in the forums for hours on end!! | |
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