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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/24/2006 8:32:25 PM | One must first realize that 'time' and 'space' is defined by what we know at present.
This, in turn, is not, according even to the laws of quantum physics, as it will be. It is as it is now.... only.
What we know is the 'events' which happened and are foretold to happen (depending on how one interprets 'Revelations').
1. Free will. Mankind was given this.
2. We have stories handed down/Bibles/Qurans/etc. etc. most with similar underlying themes.
3. Certain aspects have happened. i.e. a revolt in the environment of God and all that he created at that time.
4. Each generation lives in a 'defined' 'timeframe'.
The gift of 'Free Will' was misused. A chain of events happened/will happen. IF God were to stop all suffering, etc. He would need to revoke his gift of 'Free Will'. Supposedly, this 'Free Will' 'Spirit' is what sets mankind aside from everything else.
So...now, we have a 'time table'... and each individual course of 'life' has happened/is happening/will happen. God, having no boundaries, knows what happened, will happen.
If God steps in and revokes said 'free will', then, that would logically change events and we would not know the difference because our 'conscious' would be changed and events would be different without us being aware of it. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/24/2006 10:38:30 PM | You think God didn't see it?
Surely in the LONG history of the Earth, in the even longer LIFE of God, he wouldn't think of a small "flood" on Earth as so monumental he would need an eternity to prepare for it... it was one of those "last minute" and "can procrastinate" things... God sat back and watched Monday Night Fights at the Colluseum until it was time to draw the bath for the Earth... lol...
If he told Noah at his birth... what good would that have done?
There is a right time for everything... don't question diety... they are above us...
Besides, if you actually believe in the fairy-tale of the flood, you should read up on the real floods that happened to influence the creation of this story...
--Chase | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/25/2006 4:02:49 PM |
The gift of 'Free Will' was misused. A chain of events happened/will happen. IF God were to stop all suffering, etc. He would need to revoke his gift of 'Free Will'. Supposedly, this 'Free Will' 'Spirit' is what sets mankind aside from everything else.
Apparently, you think this has something to do with my question.
God knows what we're going to do with our free will before we do it. He knows how everything is going to turn out in advance. He knows everything that's happened and everything that is going to happen between now and the end of the world.
With that said, he also knows what he's going to do before he does it. Anything that can happen in this world he already knows will happen, which means he knows any actions that he might perform in the future with respect to our world.
He knew from the dawn of creation that he would bring the flood. He knew that he would hang a rainbow as a reminder not to do it again. He knows when he will destroy the world and ring in judgement day. He knew that the jinn would mate with humans before they did it. The only logical conclusion is that jinn must also be subject to the judgement; just as angels must be if you believe they have free will.
The question is really if he knew he would destroy the world, why didn't he find another way to do it that didn't require the destruction of everything that came before Noah? What lesson can we draw from the flood other than the obvious? What does it say about God? | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/25/2006 5:21:57 PM | As I read these posts I believe most error in the fact that we being people, can’t even conceive to have the beginning of such understanding - in order to understand God.
However if you will believe the bible, it is very clear in the fact that God knows the past, present and future - this being the case He knew before anything was created what the outcome would be.
Now that being said, Jesus being part of the God head was actually God Himself that came to this planet, allowing His creation to not only kill Him but torture as well - Only a loving God would consider such an act. God being able to create or destroy all existence, the entire universe with a simple word, came to us for one purpose - to restore relationship with his creation. Why, could He not just start over? Why die and be tortured when He could simply start over? Love, He loved us.
This being said and He being God, would not take away the gift He gave mankind when he was created. The gift of choice - even though he knows the choice we will make, He will not make us choose either way, life or death. Thus destroying the belief of predetermined selection. We knowing these things to be true, He (God) knowing our hearts will work with us to help us to understand and have faith - we simply need to ask or look for the truth. He (God) says - man is without excuse for the very creation speaks/shows of His existence. He also says that He put in the heart of every man to know that He is and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. Thus destroying the belief of Atheism. When someone says they are an Atheist they simply deny what they already know to be true in their heart - they override their conscience.
Now the questions of reaction and intervention - He does both and more we simply don’t understand why, when or how. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/26/2006 4:31:04 AM |
My question is why did he let it get to this point, since he should have known that without his intervention it would get to that point, and why did he just wipe it out instead of fixing it?
Maybe he just did'nt want to prevent the flood, Maybe we did'nt deserve it. Maybe those earlier religions were right and Zues is still sitting atop his mountain smithing those whom deserve it. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/26/2006 5:31:44 AM | | If god was impotent then how on earth did he manage to secretly slip one up Mary? Is this why she remained a virgin and the tale played out throughout the schools is known as the naivity? | |
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rowlie
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Joined: 5/18/2006
Msg: 32 | |
| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 12/26/2006 9:03:39 PM | | Where does all this lead ? Or even come from? God must have been bored at some stage because he /she had nothing to do or simply didn't exist. There was no universe and it is difficult to discuss what wasn't there in the first (non existent) "place". Then also what is the mentioned concept of good and evil? As we think we know, parts of the universe are wiped out and born constantly (although we only see the past and not the present). And as we know, we will also be wiped out, but will it be due to evil? Yet on this world it has happened many times and more to come and you could argue that it isn't important except to us. You could also begin to discuss perfection and imperfection, and the need to create imperfection which, to us, is inferior. I'm just a geologist and perhaps can, to a tiny extent, look back to a past time, and use it as a tool to see a future one. We just aren't there. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:16:49 PM |
Because God gave us free will and the choice to make our own choices in Life
So everyone before the flood had free will to do whatever they wanted, and everyone after the flood has had free will to do whatever they wanted.
The only people that survived the flood were Noah and his family.
Since God knew at the beginning of creation that the choices people made were going to result in wiping them all out and starting over with Noah and his family and nobody else, then what was the point? Why didn't God just start the world with Noah and his family to begin with? What relevance does anything that happened and anyone who lived before Noah have to do with the world today, and if it has nothing relevant to do with anything, then why did God go through the motions of creating it and letting it exist knowing he was going to wipe it out and start over?
If of all the people in the world only Noah was worth saving, then what makes any one of us think we're worth saving? | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:40:55 PM | New Way Home, He didn't "destroy the world in the process", you're here aren't you? On the same world that the flood was? The same world that has survived ice ages, meteors, ad nauseum?
And perhaps this is too much for you to accept, as it is not a doctrine or "tenet" that is written, but could you consider that the Earth is a soul as well, infused with all the qualities that souls enjoy?
And that the Mother has and enjoys a special relationship with the Creator?
And as with all souls, she may want to spruce up a bit? Maybe change the landscape? Maybe get rid of the unwanted stuff on her body, cleanse, and start anew? Nothing is lost, all is energy. Not privy to Her private thoughts at all, but maybe, just maybe, She and the Creator have an intimate relationship and for the good of the whole, accept that some temporary loss is necessary to keep on living?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:58:09 PM |
Since God knew at the beginning of creation that the choices people made were going to result in wiping them all out and starting over with Noah and his family and nobody else, then what was the point? Why didn't God just start the world with Noah and his family to begin with?
Perhaps another interesting way to phrase the question is - why wouldn't he do it that way? You or I might have just started with Noah in order to avoid a waste of time or effort, but if God is omnipotent and eternal, those concepts have no meaning. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 7:39:31 PM |
could you consider that the Earth is a soul as well, infused with all the qualities that souls enjoy?
Actually, no, I couldn't. A rock is just a rock.
I don't need a book to tell me that humans are different from plants, and that plants are different from dirt. Dirt doesn't have a soul. Dirt isn't alive.
Thinking that the earth is 'alive' in the sense that a human is alive, that it thinks and has free will, that it possesses a soul... these are simplistic thoughts without reasoning and show a lack of grasp of reality; sort of like believing... actually believing... in the flying spaghetti monster.
They don't answer the question of what makes anyone think they're better than Noah, that they're worth saving. It doesn't answer how anyone is different from all those people that were destroyed in the flood.
When the end comes, it will be the same for us. It will be a miracle if even one person on the planet is judged worthy... if even one... | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 8:03:35 PM |
They don't answer the question of what makes anyone think they're better than Noah, that they're worth saving. It doesn't answer how anyone is different from all those people that were destroyed in the flood.
On the other hand, given that in Christian eschatology the fact of death is almost irrelevant, what would be the real meaning of this sort of phenomenon? In Christian philosophy, an individual doesn't have a soul, he is a soul, who just happens to have a body for the moment. So salvation of the body, a la Noah's animal-filled yacht, would only mean that you had more work to do. But the whole peril by drowning thing is not as important, I would think, than the final destination. I don't think that a Christian would be as concerned that he be saved like Noah; I think he'd be concerned about being big-S Saved. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 8:14:43 PM | Hmm. Wrong time period in the Bible. Nothing to with a 'Christian god'.
Boys and girls, we're talking Old Tyme Religion!
You never made a mistake, and decided to wipe clean your slate and start over?
Huh. Not rocket science here. The god of the old world, he didn't need to foresee a flood.
He caused the rains to fall and waters to cover the land. And he gave marching orders to a few families, and sent his favorite animals, two by two, to be taken aboard.
^^ Fun time for storytellers. Really kinda gripping in the recounting, know what I mean? | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 8:25:31 PM |
Hmm. Wrong time period in the Bible. Nothing to with a 'Christian god'.
Correct, of course, but we're talking about a Christian (and others, naturally) interpretation of this event (as a historical event), and what it would mean in today's world. Either that, or I misunderstood it. So my response was that, insofar as this question was aimed at Christians, I don't see that the question of salvation is properly interpreted.
Obviously, personally, I believe there have been global resets, but that none have occurred in written memory. Nor did they have any meaning - just interesting consequences. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 9:12:28 PM | This is an very ancient tale, a parable of mythology in the times of polytheism. It looks very much to come from the ages of Sumer and Babylonia. It is, most likely, lets say, borrowed in later ages, for its useful lessons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark
There is a certain...childlike tendency to take the stories of Old Tyme Religion in the literal sense. This is not wise idea. Many of these common parable themes originate in times of rich tradition of artful sacred oratory, and the handing down of common lessons, morals and social ethics, as well as clan history, taught by story telling. Its an easy means of reproducing a reliable memory record of a heck of a lot of information. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 9:25:01 PM |
I would think, than the final destination. I don't think that a Christian would be as concerned that he be saved like Noah; I think he'd be concerned about being big-S Saved.
"Christian" notwithstanding, I had not considered the question from this perspective. I just made the assumption that if God killed someone, that "someone" probably wasn't saved.
I reasoned that Noah was saved from the flood and allowed to live because he was "good" man with a "saved" soul; the others that were wiped out were all just sent to hell a bit early, hence the reason they weren't permitted to live.
Perhaps my reasoning is incorrect. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 9:34:59 PM | I think you should read the Wiki-entry I cited above, OP.
There are *many* interpretations of this popular theme, in a handful of different religions, your own included.
How about comparing and contrasting their interpreted lessons eh? Its seems like it could be a bit more productive in the discussion of the venerable Tale of the Ark. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 10:05:12 PM |
"Christian" notwithstanding, I had not considered the question from this perspective. I just made the assumption that if God killed someone, that "someone" probably wasn't saved.
That's a reasonable hypothesis, and I will grant that, especially in the OT, this is usually implied.
However, the OT was very much focused on this world - rewards and punishments were often in riches or disease, or being on one end or the other of a conquest. In the NT, the focus is far more on the next world, where this world is seen, not as an illusion, but as ultimately trivial compared to the life beyond, which is eternal.
So what I was really trying to point out is that there has been a sea-change in the views on punishment over the years. Today, if one is consoling a family whose loved one has died of cancer or in an accident, one might say "God called him home." It would not only be socially incorrect to think that some nice old lady or a three year old with cancer has been cursed by God - I honestly don't think that would even occur to the majority of religious people. | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/5/2007 10:27:29 PM | .
Note: I personally choose to stay out of the theology aspects of these stories and therefore will confine myself only to that part currently accepted by researchers of many of the world’s popular religions.
Ancient Sumerian texts, from which much of the Hebrew Bible was derived, teaches that the Flood happened about 13000 b.c. and was very extensive. Because we are dealing with Sumerian history/mythology here (the only writings from that era available), this reply is limited to what they reported from their little area of the world.
As reported, the cause of that great flood was natural and killed almost everyone. It was written that there was a type of civilization before the flood, but that civilization was considerably different, in many ways, from that to come later.
Civilization, as we know it, began about 11000 b.c. around, but not directly in, the Sumerian area. The land we know of as Sumer dried out enough to become inhabited again after 10000 b.c. and thereafter began what we think of as civilization.
Archeologists show that civilization progressed quickly (farming, law, medicine, schools, government, etc.) after 11000 b.c., but modern scientists are not yet ready to say how or why civilization developed (from the stone to the bronze age) so fast. The Sumerians, however, repeatedly wrote that all that they knew (science, arts & all of it) they learned from those folks the Hebrew Bible called the “gods of other lands.” Sumerians, however, called them “lords,” not gods -- much as the modern British use the term “My Lord.” The Hebrew Bible even names some of these olden lords by name. The Sumerians described and named a couple hundred of them.
The above precedes all modern religions by over five thousand years. Therefore, I’ll stop there so as not to impact on anyone’s religious convictions.
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/6/2007 8:57:07 AM |
The Sumerians, however, repeatedly wrote that all that they knew (science, arts & all of it) they learned from those folks the Hebrew Bible called the “gods of other lands.” Sumerians, however, called them “lords,” not gods -- much as the modern British use the term “My Lord.” The Hebrew Bible even names some of these olden lords by name. The Sumerians described and named a couple hundred of them.
So, Sumer is thought to be one of the very early ancient seats of civilization.
Who taught the Sumerians to be 'civilized'? Who were these Lords? | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/6/2007 9:55:49 AM | hmmm, ok, New Way Home....
This is actually the second time you've made disparaging remarks about the state of my mental health. Because someone's beliefs are diametrically opposed to yours, they have "simplistic thoughts without reasoning and show a lack of grasp of reality"?
I am impressed that you are the leading authority on reality. I'm assuming that the thousands and thousands upon thousands of Gaia/Mother believers are impressed as well.
I submit that believing only Noah, who I'm told was not exactly a tea totaller, a few chosen family members and friends, sitting on a boat in which he was given exact dimensions from God, in advance mind you, along with a pair of each and every single animal on the planet, is simplistic and seriously lacking in reason. An ancient tale, handed down from simple people, to scare the masses, and bound in a book(s) whose credibility, to me, is seriously questionable.
It really boils down to beliefs, doesn't it? You believe that Noah was singled out, and the rest of humankind was destroyed. Ok, go for it. I choose not to believe.
Cheers, Raven  | |
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| If God is omnipotent, why didn't he foresee the Flood?
Posted: 1/7/2007 2:49:51 PM |
I submit that believing only Noah, who I'm told was not exactly a tea totaller, a few chosen family members and friends, sitting on a boat in which he was given exact dimensions from God, in advance mind you, along with a pair of each and every single animal on the planet, is simplistic and seriously lacking in reason. An ancient tale, handed down from simple people, to scare the masses, and bound in a book(s) whose credibility, to me, is seriously questionable.
Apparently, you're not reading all the posts in this thread. Sombient suggested the following website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark
When I read this article, I realized that the Noah story is in no way unique to the Old Testament. In fact, an incredible number of known cultures have traditions of this story. When so many different versions of the story exist across so many faiths, I have a hard time not accepting that the story has some basis in reality.
For example, in Greek mythology (the mythology that created Gaia), Noah is known as Nerus and the end of his era marks the beginning of their religion. Even in Greek mythology, nothing prior to Noah survives. | |
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