The RDNA, which was founded at Carleton, was created not as an expression of pagan belief, but as an attempt to get away from going to religious services on Sundays - as was required at the time. The only way to get out of those services was if the individual belonged to another religious group (i.e. Judiasm, Buddhism, etc).

These young men were not pagan, they were lazy university students who declared that the sacred drink was whiskey and preferred to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

United Nations, religous freedom definitition

http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9069

And....you'll have to take it up with the UN Human Rights organizatiion. Tell them they aren't buying the right brand of incense. Make sure you tell the U.N. just how right you are about the Carleton College Reform Druids and how they aren't a "real Pagan" religion. Tell the UN that you think you are right and they, the United Nations, are wrong. Say the Carleton Druids weren't buying the right robes, were lazy and didn't pray enough according to your judgement.

UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION:

http://www.ohchr.org/english/issues/religion/index.htm

Falun Gong case really set the legal recognition standard for freedom for all religions today.

I am not saying that they should not be accepted, but they are in NO WAY practicing an ancient tradition.

Apparently for some individuals, religious freedom and tolerance equals complete protection from critical examination, questioning, analysis, etc. as those things suddenly are equivalent to being "put to the question" rather than simply being asked a question.

Neo-Pagan: Liberal, Reform.

I would call this website a Neo-Pagan religion: "Reformed Druids of Gaia: Druidism:
http://www.mithrilstar.org


Pagan(Paleopagan): Conservative, Orthodox

I would call this website a Pagan religion as they are showing a stricter version of Druidism:
http://www.druidorder.demon.co.uk/

Neo-Pagan Druids and other forms of Pagan Druid religioius groups.

http://www.neopagan.net/CurrentDruidGroups.html

http://www.neopagan.net/IE_Paleopaganism.html

Yes Religious Tolerance under the UN is complete religious protection.

You can try your luck with the UN, you certainly can try to deny people their religious definition or you can contribute in a postitive way. There will always be individual dictators who want to try to use the authority to oppress freedom of religion. You can take it up with the U.N. just for fun.

The Romans discovered when conquering Hispania (modern Spain and Portugal) that the Druids were a major source of trouble, since their wandering members kept warning tribes who hadn’t been subjugated yet of what to expect. Julius Caesar knew this history well and made it a point in his conquest of Gaul to kill every Druid his troops could get their hands on (except for a few “native guides”). When the Roman Empire changed hands and continued under new management, the Church perpetuated this policy of killing every Druid (or other Paleopagan clergyperson in other cultures) who would not convert. Thus, by the time of the seventh century C.E., Paleopagan clergy had been either murdered, converted or driven completely underground throughout the Western Celtic lands. In parts of Wales and Ireland, and possibly in the Scottish Highlands, fragments of Druidism seem to have survived in heavy disguise through the institutions of the Celtic Church, of the bards and poets, and of the brehons, as well as in peasant folk customs (especially the seasonal celebrations). Some of these survivals of Druidic belief and practice, along with a great deal of speculation and a few outright forgeries, inspired the creation of the “Mesopagan Druid fraternities of the 1700’s. These groups have handed on these fragments (and speculations and forgeries) to this very day, augmenting them with a great deal of folkloric and other research.

These would seem to most Americans to be the only sources of information about Paleopagan Druidism. However, research done by Russian and Eastern European folklorists, anthropologists and musicologists among the Baltic peoples of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia indicates that Paleopagan traditions may have survived in small villages, hidden in the woods and swamps, even into the current century! Some of these villages still had people dressing up in long white robes and going out to sacred groves to do ceremonies, as recently as World War Two! Soviet social scientists interviewed the local clergy, recorded the ceremonies and songs, and otherwise made a thorough study of their “quaint traditions” preparatory to turning them all into good Marxists. Ironically enough, some of the oldest “fossils” of preserved Indo-European traditions (along with bits of vocabulary from Proto-German and other early IE tongues) seem to have been kept by Finno-Ugric peoples such as the Cheremis. Most of this research has been published in a variety of Soviet academic books and journals, and has never been translated into English. This material, when combined with the Vedic and Celtic sources, could give us most of the missing links necessary to reconstruct Paleopagan Druidism.

But there are some definite “nonfacts” about the ancient Druids that need to be mentioned: There are no real indications that they used stone altars (at Stonehenge or anywhere else); that they were better philosophers than the classical Greeks or Egyptians; that they had anything to do with the mythical continents of Atlantis or Mu; or that they wore gold Masonic regalia or used Rosicrucian passwords. They were not the architects of (a) Stonehenge, (b) the megalithic circles and lines of Northwestern Europe, (c) the Pyramids of Egypt, (d) the Pyramids of the Americas, (e) the statues of Easter Island, or (f) anything other than wooden barns, stone houses, and an occasional hill fort. There is no proof that any of them were monotheists, or “Pre-Christian Christians,” or that they understood or invented either Pythagorean or Gnostic or Cabalistic mysticism, although much of Pythagorean mysticism may have come from the same common IE roots as Druidic mysticism. They did not all have long white beards, which would have been difficult for the 50% of them who were women or the children in the caste. Golden sickles are also highly unlikely to have been used by the ancient Druids, despite what Pliny says, because their cutting edges would have been too soft for harvesting mistletoe, which is an exceptionally tough plant (although sickles make an excellent symbol for a Nature-based religion that stresses the importance of both sacrifice and harvesting the results of seeds planted).

Separating the sense from the nonsense, and the probabilities from the absurdities, about the Paleopagan clergy of Europe, including those who inspire modern Druids, is going to take a great deal of work. But the results should be worth it, since we will wind up with a much clearer image of the real “Old Religions” of Europe than Neopagans have ever had available before. This will have liturgical, philosophical and political consequences that will affect our future, and that of our planet, for many years to come.

Separating the sense from the nonsense,....

"Founded in 1992, the movement has attracted more than 2 million followers including an estimated one third of the total from within the ruling Communist Party."
http://www.asiasource.org/news/at_mp_02.cfm?newsid=5308

Human Rights Watch

"These setbacks did not impede Falungong's growth. Neither did quiet objections from some officials, academics, and journalists who as early as 1996 questioned Falungong's belief structure and quasi-religious character, its "anti-scientific nature," alleged anti-modernization outlook, and willingness to defy Chinese authorities. Even alarm at the number of practitioners, some forty million at the end of 1998 by government count, did not stifle Falungong's ability to organize.5 Part of the reason stemmed from officials' fear that by openly challenging it, the government would be compelled to consider whether Falungong was a religion. Opening that debate would force the Chinese leadership to confront its policy of recognizing only Buddhism, Daoism, Catholicism, Islam, and Protestantism as legitimate faiths.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/china/China0102-01.htm

Amnesty International

A summary of a report released by Amnesty International in 1996 stating, “the implementation of national and local regulations on religious activities in China has resulted in severe restrictions on peaceful religious activities and in the persecution of members of independent religious groups.”

You can try your luck with the UN, you certainly can try to deny people their religious definition

The United Nations Human Rights Commission and many religious Pagans would have to disagree with what your wrote about the Carleton College Reform Druids. Actually the RDNA or Reform Druids, the Carleton grove in 1965 AD, were an embodiment of true Pagan and Neo-Pagan beliefs. The difference is that they didn't wear the dark blue Orthodox Druid robes and chose a kind of Bob Dylan hippie robe, which differentiated them as Reform Druids (Neo-Pagans) of the Carleton College grove no doubt. If they are more the dancing Bard types who like a good brew, why hold it against them? Many religions drink alcohol in church. What as Druids they are supposed to pray on Sunday? Why? Live and let be.

Please forgive my ignorance if I offend any Pagans, but I always felt that Paganism was very close to the Red Path in that Mother Earth was respected and recognised as the wellspring of all life, and worshipped as such.

Druidism was ideal for this attack. It had a perfect combination of exotic ritual plus some relevance to the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition. If religious credit were granted, the religious requirement could be exposed as totally ineffective. If, on the other hand, credit were denied, the college could be charged with bigotry. The initial attitude of the college was, "If we ignore them, they'll go away". But the RDNA not only refused to go away, it grew, acquiring an advisor, and becoming a registered college organization.

We need to examine and judge the Carleton College neo-Druid articles of organization as they filed or amended them for us to judge them and determine their status as either Neo-Druid (Neo-Pagan) or Druid (Pagan) by our concerned judgement. Do they qualify as Orthodox Druids? What are their mating practices like? Do they fornicate? What are their marriage ceremonies like?

The difference between these people and a lot of other neo-pagan groups in north america is that they are university students who likely understand the lack of knowledge we have and therefore make fewer assumptions, while the common everyday fluffy bunny wiccan reads a couple of pages on the internet and considers themself educated.

Whats more, at least from a Germanic pov, is that as the beliefs of our peoples and our disposition as a people walked hand-in-hand in the elder forms of paganisms, we have a natural insight and need not concern ourselves with all of the details that may or may not have been lost.

The RDNA, which was founded at Carleton, was created not as an expression of pagan belief, but as an attempt to get away from going to religious services on Sundays - as was required at the time. The only way to get out of those services was if the individual belonged to another religious group (i.e. Judiasm, Buddhism, etc).

These young men were not pagan, they were lazy university students who declared that the sacred drink was whiskey and preferred to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

Well, bloodlines are a thing that have value Lady-fair, as they must in any religion that claims to be "folkish" or "(w)holistic", but they do not dictate affiliation.

Bloodlines and racial purity are often things overrated by those who are ignorant of their cutlural heritage. If a family or a tribe accetps a person as one of their own, well, THAT is the primary identifier.

But to expect to not be questioned about it, produce source evidence, or to call that persecution? Bombast and delusional poppycock of the meanest type...

Julius Caesar knew this history well and made it a point in his conquest of Gaul to kill every Druid his troops could get their hands on (except for a few “native guides”)

Mike, You are the only one associating eastern religious practices with paganism.
The almost universal usage of the word pagan these days refers ONLY to western based traditions.

I didn't know this then, but I figured it out later. Norsemen were there. Find that in a historical account. I haven't found any reference and I've looked. But they were there; well at least two. So you can keep reading forever or actually look at Mother Earth the way real 'pagans' did.

If anyone has any kind of 'delusion, please share with me here or privately. Thanks.

Paganism does not have to be a "faith" it can simply be observing and harnesing the forces of nature, but neopaganism seems to be associated with religious groups like "wicca" or goddess worship.

JMARS – that is definitely an interesting perspective to the situation. Point being then that everything grows and changes according to the times it is surviving in, as a result nothing can be dismissed as totally false?

people are looking for alternative ways of expressing their spirituality but some of this DIY religion hinges on disrespecting some of the more stable traditions

They are all connected, and as such are all one, just with different aspects and personality traits, if you will. So by my way of thinking, I am not being disrespectful to a particular culture by worshipping their deity, as that deity is a part of the greater power, regardless of what culture they come from.

However, the part of how you're not disrespecting them because of how *you* think and interpret things, well, what about how *they* think and interpret things? Wouldn't "their way of thinking" be a crucial element in gauging whether you are disrespecting them or not? Maybe?