| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 2:35:17 PM | Just an FYI for adamedward and anyone else interested in the actual numbers on how many people Saddam has killed:
Saddam Hussein's Kill Tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Hussein's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 3:19:26 PM | Actual?
Source?
Are they trying to say that he murdered Iranians? Did Allies murder Nazis in WWII?
How can they say that the deaths of Iraqi civilians during the Gulf War is on Saddam's hands? Why isn't on the American military and their allies?
Notice the sanctions were also set forth by the US and the UN council. Sanctions for shit that happened a decade ago that are still being enforced.
All hail the red white and blue.
Since everyone agrees that his execution is just, I wonder how many people here would turn the other cheek if they were a world leader and a group of radicals tried to assassinate you.
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 3:33:38 PM | You think Saddam ever thought about Karma?
The guy was a thug. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 3:37:16 PM | Even thugs have family and friends.
Thugs also take care of their people.
The man did his job his way. I doubt anyone on this board would do things differently.
Another point is that I find people assume that other cultures/people/groups live life differently than we do here in the west and North America. Culture shock is a gorgeous thing. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 3:52:03 PM |
And Saddam never wrote anything to the US people - he has no appeal to the citizens of the US. He never did.
Ummmm, errrrrr, well I don't believe I said that Saddam wrote anything to the US people.
I do not enjoy being misquoted.  | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 5:31:41 PM | Well I have to agree Bush is just as bad .... May have not done as much in numbers but still an idiot who wants to control the world....
Regardless... I dont think he is dead... haha... really check out all the footage over the internet right now.. Even Strangeland.com has a copy of the actual event... The rope is way too long the knot is placed on the side of the neck to break the neck instead of the back to make it a slow death. And they show him laying on the floor immediately after instead of being suspended... I dont think he is dead..... It is the most famous execution and they dont have any good footage or actual footage that shows... If anyone can find differently please let me know....
Interesting info found online....
Saddam Hussein has finally been sentenced to death. Quite surely that was the way it was meant to be right from the inception of his trial. He had everything that made him a convincing villain. He was dictator, who was looked upon as someone who shed the blood of his own countrymen with impunity. And there was no one to stop him. Then, what happened? Well, the US found an excuse to bomb Iraq, to put it as simply as it actually is. Ask the US, why it went on with its onslaught against this little nation? Not so long ago, the reply would come right away -- Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). The Americans were fooled into believing that Iraq actually housed such deadly weapons and was connected -- howsoever remotely -- to the WTC bombing. As it turned out to be, Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC attack, neither were any WMDs found in the country. So, what was the war about? Was it about the US on WTC-vendetta?
And then came the trial of the dictator. Saddam Hussein was tried not by any independent court of law, but by a puppet body that played in the hands of the US. Judges were changed at will, defense lawyers were slain and the entire proceeding was seen as a mockery of law and justice. At the end of the day, Saddam was handed down a much expected death sentence.
Countries have reacted to the verdict with caution. However, none other than the close allies of the US has expressed satisfaction at the way the trial was conducted.
The trial lacked the faith of the people. Ends of justice were surely not served. The whole exercise was illegal right from the beginning because the US had no right to conduct such a trial. Only and impartial international law court, like International Criminal Court (ICC), could have legally tried Saddam on the charges pressed against him. So, the trial was invalid and if Saddam is executed, it would be gross miscarriage of justice because every accused has an inviolable right to a fair trial. And since the trial was illegal, the execution would be plain murder.
The US must wake up before it is too late.
Not that I was not for him being executed... As I would have loved to see the creep hang....
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 7:38:25 PM | Well put, Paige...
I really should check this out before I post; I was watching the footage on CNN... wasn't it the new Iraqi government that ordered his execution? | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 7:47:24 PM | | Nice to see so many people taking joy in the execution of another human being. Despite his crimes and apparent guilt, isn't putting a man to death sinking to the same level? | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 8:49:07 PM | That has always been my belief....deciding who dies.....kind of playing God isn't it? But....it is the law some places and I'm sure many people have different beliefs than me..but then again....some people believe hi jacking a plane and killing hundreds of people makes them a hero....does it make it right just because they believe in it? Freedom of thought and practice is a nice idea...but the line has to be drawn somewhere....
I didn't watch much of the news so not sure how "sensationalized" this execution was...but I remember Timothy McVeigh's execution....watching the media...and just everything...it literally made me sick....
So...as u can see...I don't have a very clear opinion :P | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/30/2006 8:55:28 PM | Are there bigger injustices in the world? yes.
Are there bigger a-holes that need to be double taped ? yes.
Butit just so happens that they hung him instead. Do I care ? No not in the slightest.
Why ?
Because although hes not the worst person in the world he is far far far from the best humanity can offer up. If you try to prioritize these people you will only send yourself chasing your own tail. So I say we got him now lets hang the bastage!
Hes a factory reject of human to begin with and we should get a total refund on all foodstuffs, water and air, that was wasted on him, from Gods customer service desk! | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/31/2006 12:35:18 AM | A few points for Adam:
“i wonder if most of you were happy when Yassir Arafat died too. Oh, but Ariel Sharon is a real hero though.”
No and no. I can acknowledge the positives about Arafat and the negatives about Sharon. Neither of which have anything to do with how I feel about SH.
“And I suppose you know how many psychopaths do; if so please enlighten me.”
I have studied psychopathy/sociopathy, and dealt with psychopaths within the system. Lack of affect allows psychopaths to face their death “bravely”. It is that same lack of affect that enables them to visit unspeakable cruelties upon their fellow man – you know, like SH did.
And while I am not about to sing G.W.’s praises, seeking shelter from a tornado demonstrates a certain level of intelligence. Tornados are not impressed with bravado, so a wise person seeks shelter rather than standing to face such an awesome force of nature. Oh, and btw, if he hadn’t gone willingly, you can bet that he would have been forced to go to the shelter – Americans have this funny idea that the president is important and should be kept safe.
“Thugs also take care of their people.”
SH killed many of his own people – and I’m not just talking about those who were tried for attempting to assassinate him. Ask the Kurds how well he looked after his people.
“The man did his job his way. I doubt anyone on this board would do things differently.”
His way was unnecessarily ruthless and brutal. Hey, if he wanted to run a repressive police state, more power to him! But he went way over the line. Saying “that’s the way I do things” does not legitimate unnecessary atrocities.
“Another point is that I find people assume that other cultures/people/groups live life differently than we do here in the west and North America. Culture shock is a gorgeous thing.”
Huh? Are you suggesting that they *don’t* live differently? Have you never left this country? Other cultures live life much differently than we do. Their entire world view is different.
“The trial was a ****ing joke and you'd be foolish to believe Saddam Hussein received a fair and unbiased trial. Not foolish, just retarded.”
I don’t argue SH received a “fair and unbiased” trial. On the other hand, for a figure such as SH, I would argue that it’s impossible to have a truly unbiased trial, anyway. Which is irrelevant to my point: the man deserved to die, and he’s dead.
“But, you're right, what do I know?”
Apparently nothing about manners.
According to your profile, you are a graduate student. As such, you should know better than to bring personal attacks into a debate. By now, you should be able to argue your point without such emotional, knee-jerk responses.
It’s amazing: I’ve already had this debate with somebody who, at the very least, is far more articulate than you; his position is diametrically opposed to mine, yet somehow he managed to make his points without coming across as arrogant (the way you do), swearing regularly, or hurling insults. And you know what? He managed to convince me about a few of his points – and isn’t that the purpose of a debate? Your approach is very effective at provoking emotional reactions, but it’s not going to convince anyone of anything.
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/31/2006 8:13:08 AM | | Referring to Test Pilot's comment (Happy New Year hun!)... I have to say that when I see anything like that on tv or the net, it disturbs the hell out of me - regardless who the person is. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/31/2006 8:19:05 AM | I watched the video on Google and must say that it looks fairly legit.
The video I have seen of Saddam up top getting prepped and the video from the camera phone do show the same scenes but obviously from different angles.
Those 3 seconds as he is falling must have had him scared...and I am glad about that. I personally believe he should have been tortured more, but that is my own opinion(and probably that of alot of his victims too).
Regardless, he is dead, gone, never to torture another human being again. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 12/31/2006 8:41:55 AM |
Nice to see so many people taking joy in the execution of another human being. Despite his crimes and apparent guilt, isn't putting a man to death sinking to the same level?
I am not doing a tap dance or throwing a party over SH being executed. But I do take pleasure in the fact that he is gone, and won't be around to hurt anyone else. I will admit there are cases where I would throw a party or I think I would if someone was executed. Most parents would fight to the death for their children and would love to take the law into their own hands when someone harmed their children.
Did the judge that passed down the sentence kill even one person? I don't think he did, so he did NOT sink to the same level as Saddam.
I do feel sorry for his family, the ones that loved him, as I do for all families of killers, or the ones that commit any type of crime. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 1:39:29 AM | The man is gone and yet still on all our lips. Enough is enough I say . He did enough harm while alive . Let it stop at his death . Good riddence to bad rubbish . | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 3:54:54 AM | There have been many men like Saddam throughout history;Hitler,Zedong,Pinochet etc.
What concerns me more are the ones still not dangling from a rope.Or those who remain out of the spotlight to do their injustices silently and more intimately one by one.
Those who hide behind a cleverly constructed facade of "truth" and "justice" and "good" are even more deadly.
It's so hard to know who or what to trust these days.
I'm not a religious man,but all i know is aside from Saddam's atrocities,having this whole thing orchestrated by the government and sensationalized by the media during the holiday's leaves an additional bad taste in my mouth. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 11:30:08 AM | What irks me is that he was tried by a biased system who was just looking to make a publicity stunt out of the whole thing.
Why wasn't he tried in the International Criminal Court? | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 1:25:24 PM | Can you provide me with a credible link to where you got that number from?
This was a request from Aevalise to AdamEdward regarding the number of deaths in Iraq since the invasion by the Americans. One credible source is the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health..."As many as 654,965 more Iraqis may have died since hostilities began in Iraq in March 2003 than would have been expected under pre-war conditions"...."deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003" [http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html] (which was subsequently published in the medical journal The Lancet).
The methodology used in this study is consistent with that used in other conflict zones in the past where it's findings have not been disputed. Other reports of total deaths in Iraq rely on methodologies which are widely held to be imprecise.
Given the current daily death rate, the overall total since that study was conducted (ending in July '06) easily enters the 700k's.
Why wasn't he tried in the International Criminal Court?
In such a forum there would be considerable opportunity for SH to mount a defence arguing that he was engaging in some activities under the direction/interests of the Americans (who were strong supporters of him during the Iran-Iraq war). By having him tried in a court in Iraq, where the head judge could be replaced if too lenient (as actually happened...."lenient" in this case meaning allowing SH's lawyers to engage in a defence that would be comparable to that in Western nations....and consistent with that of Iraq's own current laws) then it is easier to suppress such a defence & any evidence associated with it. Hmmmmm....call me suspicious, but that might explain why he was executed BEFORE the case of genocide against the Kurds was fully engaged by the defence in the Iraq trial. There is now no need to present such a defence because SH is no longer on trial for that crime (because he's dead).
Anyone else notice the odd parallels with the book "1984" by George Orwell?? Creeps me right out. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 2:11:45 PM | People have to be absolutely blind or monumentally naive to see that the US, Britain and Israel are not plotting a one-government world.
There are many theories, stories and information out there, however the classic skeptic will just denounce as conspiracy jargon. However, all the signs of a "new world order" are there.
How many years before we're introduced to the Amero and the North American Union? | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 3:47:58 PM | “In such a forum there would be considerable opportunity for SH to mount a defence arguing that he was engaging in some activities under the direction/interests of the Americans (who were strong supporters of him during the Iran-Iraq war).”
Why do people keep bringing up the wrongs done by the Americans? One person committing an evil does not excuse another person for committing another evil. Are there others who should bear some of the responsibility? Sure. But that’s not a reason to refrain from holding SH responsible.
“Hmmmmm....call me suspicious, but that might explain why he was executed BEFORE the case of genocide against the Kurds was fully engaged by the defence in the Iraq trial. There is now no need to present such a defence because SH is no longer on trial for that crime (because he's dead).”
And the problem with that is???? lol - no need to answer, I know what you’ll say; I just don’t care :) To me, what matters is that justice has been done, not how it got done.
“Anyone else notice the odd parallels with the book "1984" by George Orwell?? Creeps me right out.”
Yeah, well, there’s a reason that book still has relevance. Just ask AdamEdward – ‘cause he seems to think he’s the only one here that can find info not produced by Minitruth:
“People have to be absolutely blind or monumentally naive to see that the US, Britain and Israel are not plotting a one-government world.”
Wow – that’s an awkward sentence.
Yet again we see the overweening arrogance: obviously anyone who holds an opinion other than AdamEdward’s is stupid, blind, retarded, naïve... Apparently there is no point in being a free-thinker, because none but he can possibly be correct. Let us all give up our attempts to educate ourselves and kneel at his feet to learn all the great truths of the world.
“There are many theories, stories and information out there, however the classic skeptic will just denounce as conspiracy jargon. However, all the signs of a "new world order" are there.”
Run by the Jews, too, huh?
So, if we don’t accept your point of view, we are being naïve… except those times when we are being skeptical?? This is actually very amusing.
Oh, wait, one world government… where have I heard that idea… Oh, right – Gene Roddenbury. Know anything about the plans for an interstellar federation?
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/1/2007 4:43:02 PM | | ^^^^ Note that I didn't actually claim or suggest that the Americans had done anything. I just pointed out that it wasn't possible to mount a defence based on their past involvement w/ SH in an Iraqi court, where the gov't was controlling the court process (as explained by example), whereas it could have been raised as part of the defence at the ICC. For several months many media commentators & academics have been commenting on how desperate the Americans must be to prevent SH from being able to raise these issues in court. BTW, those weren't my conclusions about why it wasn't held at ICC (although I don't disagree with them), just those I read in other media sources (that are in the haze of the past, so I can't cite them) that were discussing that very issue earlier last year. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 6:18:40 AM | Thank you for that information gerrymac.
The only question I have is how many of those deaths were caused at the hands of Saddam's military? | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 7:29:47 AM | The Iraqi military was disbanded quite soon after the invasion & "win" by GWB (as was the entire civil service....those two acts many analysts conclude have resulted in the poor conditions in Iraq today....kinda like firing all teachers, police, the military etc in New York, shutting off the electricity and water, and waiting 4 years (an analogy made by some analysts)). Those numbers cited in the Johns Hopkins study (funded in part by MIT) are how many Iraqis have died over and beyond those who normally would have according to death rate patterns in Iraq under SH. One UN official, an expert in torture, said last fall that "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than....in the times of Saddam." Around 3k-4k Iraqis are killed each month according to the UN (but, notably, apparently using estimation methods that are the less credible ones mentioned earlier...so possibly a considerable underestimate), and apparently a great number are tortured as part of being killed.
I suspect that it's difficult to know how many deaths are at the hands of members from the former/disbanded military.....a senior analyst at the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations, Max Boot, said, "What’s happening is far messier than the American or English or Russian civil wars. This is not a war of two well-defined sides but a war of all against all. Sunnis and Shiites are not only fighting each other but various gangs of Sunnis and Shiites are fighting among themselves. Some of these disputes are ethnic or religious. Others are simply criminals squabbling over how to divide the spoils." However, as far as I can remember, the general military was mostly Sunnis (from SH's own religious group), so the following note from AP may be relevant to your question.....
From the Associated Press (in the last day or so).....
"Enraged crowds protested the hanging of Saddam Hussein across Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland Monday......Until Saddam's execution Saturday, most Sunnis sympathized with militants. But they avoided taking a direct role in the sectarian conflict in spite of attacks by Shiite militia that have killed thousands of Sunnis or driven them from their homes.
A Sunni mob in Samara broke the locks off the Golden Dome, a bomb-damaged Shiite Muslim shrine, and marched through while carrying a mock coffin and photo of Saddam. Monday's demonstration at the shrine could suggest many Sunnis may now more actively back the small number of militants fighting against Iraq's Shiite-dominated government."
You can draw your own conclusions from that fuzzy & somewhat contradictory mess. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 9:11:46 AM | | hes gone and dead and that's all that matters. Is there equally bad people left on the earth? Most certainly there is. But one real bad one is gone and he will never be able to do what he did again, we should be thankful of that. Bush may be equally as bad, its not for us to debate. Adamedward if Bush and the Americans weren't over there doing whatever it is they are doing would you be the first to put on the fatigues and protect people that can not protect them selves. My guess is no. You seem to me as the type to stay home abd b.itch about how bad everything is and how bad everyone is, but if you were put in a positin to actually do something about it you would cower in a corner with your tail between your legs, and the bravado that you display on line, in a forum, would disappear in a heartbeat. Find a tree to hug, burn a candle and shut the f up. No one cares that hes dead. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 9:39:17 AM | | Gosh, I hate to sound so crass, but these people seem to be their own worst enemies! If there is no reason to fight, they'll find one. | |
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