| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 9:53:46 AM | hes gone and dead and that's all that matters.
No, it's not. How he's gone, and how he's dead DO matter. If it's a way that's guaranteed to generate MORE terrorists and MORE terrorism (as most analysts say is the case in this outcome...and in the associated process of determining it), then it's *not* the right outcome. Letting SH serve his life in a prison and see Iraq turn into a democracy with rights & safety for all it's citizens might have been a better approach, and better revenge because it would clearly demonstrate to him that he was "wrong" in his approach. Martyring him is not a "good" approach because it's much more likely to affect MY life.....more terrorists do not improve my life at all. So, in that sense, I *do* care that he's dead.
There are far too many knee-jerk revenge actions to supposedly provide justice for past wrongs, with little consideration as to what the long-term consequences of those decisions are. Decisions should be made in regard to long-term consequences as well. This is probably one of the reasons that the International court which is trying cases from eastern europe on similar sorts of issues has decided against using the death penalty.
BTW, addressing despots & dictators is the UN's job, not the US's. Consistent historical evidence is that the US attempting to do so (such as by supporting Iraq against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war because of the religious fundamentalists in Iran that they objected to) has negative outcomes...often because they're the reason that the despot is in a position of power in the first place.
A citizen in a democracy can support the UN & its mandates in many ways other than by "putting on fatigues"....getting a university education in areas such as political science, sociology & public relations provides one a background to encourage public discourse on topical issues....and those discussions contribute to general public literacy (which is one of the mandates of the UN) and leads to a population that is better contribute to decisions made by their elected governments (another mandate of the UN). Sometimes, having an opinion that differs from that held broadly in a culture arises from having more information obtained from a broader variety of sources to consider. I don't know about Adamedward, but apart from North American newspapers, I frequently read on-line newspapers from Britain (The Guardian, The Times, etc), New Zealand, Australia, South America, Al-Jazeera, Hong Kong...and others from around the world more sporadically....these all contribute to my understanding of an issue. The deficiencies of information in North American media are profound, and depressing....a comparison of our media with British newspapers considerably highlights the role that media could play in educating the public.
Gosh, I hate to sound so crass, but these people seem to be their own worst enemies! If there is no reason to fight, they'll find one.
Uh, is this a reference to the Americans? Or the Iraqis?
People rarely fight without a reason, it's just that the reason may not make sense to someone whose context is different....so from the outside it appears illogical. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 9:58:26 AM | | I'm referring to the Middle East. I'm not even going to debate; but from what I see and read, it seems to be a bit crazier over there... | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 11:49:07 AM | There are far too many knee-jerk revenge actions to supposedly provide justice for past wrongs, with little consideration as to what the long-term consequences of those decisions are. Decisions should be made in regard to long-term consequences as well. This is probably one of the reasons that the International court which is trying cases from eastern europe on similar sorts of issues has decided against using the death penalty.
Or maybe the decision not to use the death penalty has more to do with the controversy around the use of the death penalty and the fact that the majority of countries have either completely abolished the death penalty or allowed it to fall into disuse (according to Amnesty International), making it simply a function of reflecting the beliefs of the majority.
Besides, an offender should not escape justice simply because the authorities fear reactions to justice.
Gosh, I hate to sound so crass, but these people seem to be their own worst enemies! If there is no reason to fight, they'll find one. ...I'm referring to the Middle East. I'm not even going to debate; but from what I see and read, it seems to be a bit crazier over there...
People rarely fight without a reason, it's just that the reason may not make sense to someone whose context is different....so from the outside it appears illogical.
I’m with gm on this one: in order to make any sense of the conflict and violence in the Middle East, one has to be able to leave aside one’s own worldview and try to understand how the people *there* view things. The issues there go beyond what we see on the surface; among other things, these people have been raised to hate in a manner few of us can comprehend. That is why, even when leaders have tried to move towards peace, such attempts get sabotaged by those who cannot move beyond their hatred.
And to return to the original topic of SH’s execution: the above is why I am not overly concerned with this execution as a recruiting tool; such an event may result in a short-term spike in recruiting, but over the long term it balances out as those who might not have joined now as a response to the execution would likely have been won over by a different reason down the line.
sv
A quick comment on the tone of some posts here:
Responding to a crude post in like manner is both unprofessional and ineffective. One would expect a graduate student, especially one in *public relations*, to be able to make his point (in a *public* forum) both logically and tactfully. A student would do well to look at the posts of the person who takes the same position as he does, but argues it in a more articulate manner, and *learn* something from the way those posts are written, instead of responding with the sort of knee-jerk, emotional garbage guaranteed to offend even some of those who would agree with him. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 3:41:34 PM | ***A friendly moderator reminder that everyone participating in this thread shall work on bringing this thread back on topic from here on in.
Further personal insults will be deleted on the spot and offending posters suspended.
-Babylonia/Moderator*** | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 7:28:17 PM | The world is pretty screwed up right now and this is kind of a grey area zone. I think according to the views of middle eastern and our own society that execution was the only route. However, the timing of the situation is very poor and the apparent motivations for taking out Saddam scarcely have much to do with his crimes against humanity. I think this is going to fuel more revenge killings. Alot of people see the capture as a big pile of BS. Many Iraq people are pissed because they think the US got involved with them because of oil and revenge.
I believe Saddam was captured because the US government desperately went hunting for a scapegoat for the trade center attacks. It was well known that he committed most of his crimes back in the early 80's but no one said much until the Kuwait invasion threatened to spiral oil prices out of control. When that situation was "resolved", Iraq was occupied and weapons inspections were regularly performed. The WTC attacks in 2001 then created a massive scapegoat hunt and Saddam was at the top of the list. It didn't matter that no weapons of mass destruction or pieces of them were found. The US government simply, unilaterally decided to invade, pushing aside the UN as if it was a big clown. They needed to strike someone for "911" as quick as possible. I think they did nothing more than stir up terrorists twice as bad now.
Saddam should have been brought down long ago if anyone really gave a darn about his genocide. Instead, his "crimes against humanity" charge seems to be slapped on as a propeganda note to justify the whole mess. I think the real reason for the US invasions of Iraq are led by money and greed. It's funny to watch the US government and media put on the big "we give a darn for humanitarian reasons" show. I think it's a load of BS and there's alot of really ticked off people in Iraq who feel the same.
I hope to god the troops get out of there soon. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 7:47:25 PM |
The WTC attacks in 2001 then created a massive scapegoat hunt and Saddam was at the top of the list.
you skipped a step :) Bin Laden was at the top of the list after 9/11, and Afghanistan was invaded as a result. Iraq wasn't invaded until 2003.
The world is pretty screwed up right now
couldn't agree more :) I'm still just as happy SH is dead, but it's not making the situation any better. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/2/2007 8:11:34 PM | Anyone know why the Americans took Bin Laden off the top of the list?
It's because they finally figured out there wasn't enough oil in the Caspian sea to justify pacifying the country so they could put a pipeline in it. They didn't need him as a boogeyman anymore so they created a new one in Iraq... which incidently has the world's third largest oil reserves and Saddam was planning to sell it off in Euros instead of US dollars, which would have put a sh!tkicking into the American economy.
Most of the Americans are so dumb they never caught the switch. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/3/2007 1:07:49 AM | hello guys check it out . . .
God bless youtube
part 1 http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xYeuzG24mo
part 2 http://youtube.com/watch?v=FV6cSUyeNQA
part 3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=xi6mMFifMQY
part 4 http://youtube.com/watch?v=afBMu6gGdK8
peace | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/5/2007 8:24:05 AM | Saddam's Death was just a show for the masses. The fact is: is he really dead? we got some crappy cams and thats it.(conspiracy). Look at his trial it was just a big mockery
Some more questions to ask is:
Why now? Whats the gain of his death? Sure there is political gain and thats part of the reason.
And yes US supplied arms to many countries. Hell I think they even went as far as training Saddam. Unfortunatly US puppet didn't turn out the way they had hoped.
Now if he is truly dead.
.... Now what?
Chris | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/5/2007 12:48:01 PM | | I love it! I knew it wouldn't be long before the conspiracy theories surfaced. It wouldn't matter if his body was laying in a town square, some people still wouldn't believe it was him, or believe their own eyes. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/6/2007 4:16:34 AM | | Sadam was like a celebrity... we can't make fun of him anymore. | |
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Clunk
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Joined: 11/16/2006
Msg: 62 | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/6/2007 3:32:35 PM | i dont think saddam killed more people than the usa did in vietnam , pananma, iraq, and aal the other countries that didn't fall into the ROMANS hands ( i use the term roman lightly)....
if anyone in the west had any understanding of iraq and tribes , they would understand that that country had to be ruled with a sword ( sadly somthing they are finding out now)...
hanging saddam on eid was against muslim law... so was obviously pushed by the usa and the uk " lets not take this tyrrant into the new year!!!!" also maybe as a way of saying if you dont take " our democrtacy" we'll invade put our selected goverment in and hang ya ass !!!!
democracy is that like a goverment by the people for the people?
is thats what we're suppose to have?
if so why when the majority of the uk said no to war , the uk still went to war
a few facts : usa hold on to the panama canal for another 100 years , when it should of gone back to panama, how ? invade over drugs being imported to the usa, destroy any capable defence of the canal ( a clause in the agreameent) put your own goverment there, get ten times the ammount of drugs at half the price, and get to hold on to the tobbacco industry ....
remeber there was no terrorists in iraq no weapons of mass desruction now they have terrorist and the usa & uk... usa + uk = weapons of mass destruction
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/7/2007 8:34:58 AM |
i dont think saddam killed more people than the usa did in vietnam , pananma, iraq...
why stop there? Why not include all the people killed by Americans in WWII?
If Iraq was a superpower, SH would have been much more aggressive and killed a lot more people. It was the comparative weakness of his country on the world stage that held him in check.
I'm amazed at how many people are of the opinion that because the US has committed certain evils, no one else should be held accountable for their actions. Me, I'm all for taking out the ones that you can. I won't mourn for SH, regardless of the fallout, even while I will admit it was badly handled from a PR standpoint.
sv | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/7/2007 5:53:12 PM | | ^^^^ Um, there's a problem in your logic re: your first paragraph. In all cases quoted by the previous respondent (Vietnam, Panama, Iraq) the Americans were the aggressors....they did the invading. OTOH, in WWII they were attacked (the US only entered WWII when they were attacked by the Japanese), so that's perhaps why those deaths weren't included in the previous list......the previous respondent was effectively comparing campaigns where Saddam & the US were the aggressors in their respective battles. You're also making assumptions/claims about SH's overall ambitions that I'd argue are unfounded....although that sort of fear-mongering by American politicians did play into why the US electorate supported invading Iraq. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/7/2007 7:59:39 PM | | Somehow I find murdering someone because they are a murderer hypocritical. The people that jump for joy over someone's death and/or participate in that death, good or bad, are vengeful and just as guilty in my book. It doesn't bring anyone back. I'm not condemning anyone for being vengeful and having evil thoughts as long as they admit they are just as bad or have the capability to be just as bad as the murderer. To say otherwise is hypocritical. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/8/2007 6:54:24 AM |
Um, there's a problem in your logic re: your first paragraph. In all cases quoted by the previous respondent (Vietnam, Panama, Iraq) the Americans were the aggressors....they did the invading. OTOH, in WWII they were attacked
Okay. I was thinking of it more in terms of controversial killings - Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You're also making assumptions/claims about SH's overall ambitions that I'd argue are unfounded...
Right. Where did I get the idea? Oh yeah, that would be when you brought up the point about SH not wanting to invade Kuwait unless he figured the US would ignore it. In other words, American military power acted as a control on his behaviour. Leading to the possibility that there were many other things he might have done were it not for fear of retribution. Just going where you led me :)
Somehow I find murdering someone because they are a murderer hypocritical. The people that jump for joy over someone's death and/or participate in that death, good or bad, are vengeful and just as guilty in my book.
I agree with you on that, cw. That is my biggest problem with the death penalty. And I think there is something very sick and twisted in those who would watch with glee another person die.
Don't get me wrong: I'm glad SH is dead. One less evil in the world. While I would never promote the death penalty, I would say that, having been condemned with no chance of appeal, the best (and most humane) course is to be executed asap. But those apparently jeering as he was hung? Definately sick. And those who watch the video of his death because they enjoy it? Really twisted.
sv | |
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Clunk
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Joined: 11/16/2006
Msg: 68 | |
| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/11/2007 9:24:17 AM | | Man whatever the USA did or does is the reason we can walk outside our homes and go where we want and do what what we to do. The same goes for our chldren.So when my day comes i'll be at peace knowing that my childred and grandchildren will be ok in life.All because of what the USA did no matter if it was WWl,WWll or Vietnam or Saddam and his two F#@ing nut bar Sons. Just for fun watch this video.Then tell me the USA should of let them live. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=709c09033f I can give more videos of the Saddams massacre if you want..They were pure EVIL. Saddam and his sons were not warriors.They were mass murderers. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/11/2007 7:12:06 PM | | I wouldn't exactly compare WW2 with the Iraq situation since innocent lives are being lost in Iraq for pure greed not world domination. There are other countries more in need of outside help and "freedom" that are being ignored. I guess they have no oil supply. I also don't think we would all have to sleep in fear of invasion from Iraq if they weren't invaded by the US. Let's not forget who put the maniac in power and then armed him. | |
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Clunk
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Joined: 11/16/2006
Msg: 70 | |
| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:01:12 AM | | Blah Blah Blah..USA doesn't need Iraq's oil..Saddam was a murdering dictator. His sons were just as bad.He's gone now.He won't be able to support any terrorist now. If you go back to the start of it all Saddam could of resolved it. No but he wanted to be the Big tuff guy piss of the USA. | |
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LBP
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Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 71 | |
| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:13:28 AM |
Blah Blah Blah..USA doesn't need Iraq's oil..
...and the rivers flow with fine Merlot and I have no bills to pay
Ahh, it's nice living in fantasy land. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:37:03 AM |
and the rivers flow with fine Merlot
Where are these RIVERS you speak of......
Personally, i dont think it would have hurt, to have him live out the rest of his days in a jail. | |
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LBP
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Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 73 | |
| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:42:30 AM |
Where are these RIVERS you speak of
In my veins when I make it to the LC
I'm not one for the death penalty. It doesn't seem to actually be a deterrent against crime. Plus it seems like an easy way out. The person no longer is paying for their crimes.
It's like we've given them a settlement instead. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:42:58 AM | First of all show me any oil going to the US from Iraq. Everyone talks about it, but no one, from Democrats to CNN have reported the Billions the US have made from Iraqi oil.
Those talking about hanging. The purpose of hanging is to break the neck, not aphyxiate. Other than the guillotine, it is the quickest and most reliable form of execution.
I also find it funny that people will believe the number of deaths caused by the US but not believe the number of deaths caused by Saddam. I can't remember the last time George or his cabinet fed people to the lions, gassed innocent people, or burned oil fields.
I think all murdering dictators should be rounded up and given their just desserts. | |
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| Saddam's execution
Posted: 1/12/2007 8:57:51 AM | Cost or Iraq War = 1 trillion
People living in poverty in the USA = 37 million
If everyone on poverty was given a checque for whatever reason = $2,100 each
I'm not saying Saddam wasn't a tyrant or a bully.
But priorities are not in order.
In every sense of the word, when it comes to the engagement of war.
It's important to everyone, that when war is announced it's for all of the right reasons.
I'll say it again......
Saddam, played poker with the USA.
Instead of allowing inspectors to inspect (when he had nothing to hide )
He played it out, so he was at fault.
But when the americans found him hiding in the little foxhole, he created.
They should have informed the Iraq government along with the United Nations.
Now that the tyrant was found.
That a timetable would be put into place, for the troops to pull out.
But instead, they became the aggressor. Trying to find every insurgent in a country the size of Texas.....
Created a bigger mess
Big mistake. (IMO) | |
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