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| double standards
Posted: 7/22/2008 10:15:44 AM | First, if your daughter is old enough to actually know about her sexual orientation, it means she is mature enough to talk about these things. Which mean than she is old enough to want to have her privacy, with or without her friends, and that should be respected.
If she's old enough for that, she's old enough to have her own apartment, where she can do whatever she wants.
Second, lesbian intimate relationship are far less at risk. You have no risk of becomming pregnant, a much, mich lower risk for AIDS and STDs, and the male dominance factor doesn't come into play, so you also have a much better chances that, if something is actually happening with one of her female friend, it means something real to her. All in all, this could explain that "double standard" you are talking about, in my humble opinion.
Are you saying it's ok if the child has homosexual sex, but it's not if it's heterosexual sex? How's THAT for a double standard? Besides, if the guy uses a condom and your daughter is on the pill, then it's fine and dandy to close the door? And what's this crap about "dominance" being a male-only feature? Don't you know "butch" lesbians are called so by a reason?
I have seen a few parents who thinks they can prevent their child to have sex before marriage... wow. I wasn't aware some people still thought that way. Good luck, because you are going to need it.
I've seen a lot of parents who think they can't. Most of them are called grandparents now. And a lot of teenage single moms who will actually need luck.
if your sons and daughters discover that they are gay or lesbian, by all means, be supportive and let them live their life.
And they can live their lives... in their own house, with their own money. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:52:27 PM | In response to rock hunter:
If she's old enough for that, she's old enough to have her own apartment, where she can do whatever she wants.
Oh. Welcome to the world of black-and-white. So, if I understand you, human being are wither immature, or POOF they suddenly become adult and they can both talk about their sexual orientation and go into her own apartment? Did it ever occurred to you that the maturing process is a long gradual process, that there are nuances between not-old-enough and ready to talk about it, yet not ready to leave the nest?
Are you saying it's ok if the child has homosexual sex, but it's not if it's heterosexual sex? How's THAT for a double standard?
I am saying homosexual sex, from the standpoint of child birth, is safe. As for STD, lesbian sex is safer than heterosexual sex. So, the only thing I am saying is, this might explain some of the possible double standards that the OP stated / asked in his original post.
Besides, if the guy uses a condom and your daughter is on the pill, then it's fine and dandy to close the door?
If she is old enough to talk about it, learn what it is, want it, want it in a significant not-only physical way, if the boy is approximatly her age, and if she is in no way coerced into it by her friends / boyfriend / girfriend, then who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready? it is her sex life, not yours. And it will happen, if she is ready, weather you like it or not, so it better happen while you can keep an ear for possible abuse, in a safe place, rather than in a dark alley or at a friend you don't know, with drugs or abuse. Don't you think?
And what's this crap about "dominance" being a male-only feature? Don't you know "butch" lesbians are called so by a reason?
Butch lesbians are a minority. Male dominance is such a majority that you don't even realize it. The fact remains that, statistically speaking, most sexual abuse your daughter may live and survive in her life is going to be from a male, not from a woman, like it or not. And because of that, considering how adolescent are vulnerable to manipulation, i'd feel a hell of a lot safer if I had a daughter to know she was in love / loved by a fellow lesbian girl than by a boy. Of course, i'd want to meet and talk with ANY person who would enter my daughter's life, regardless of gender.
And they can live their (homosexual) lives... in their own house, with their own money.
Ahh. I see. So, if they are heterosexual, then it's okay to be supportive of them, but if they are gay / lesbian, then you will throw them out of your house and stop supporting them? Is that it? | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:32:33 PM | Did it ever occurred to you that the maturing process is a long gradual process, that there are nuances between not-old-enough and ready to talk about it, yet not ready to leave the nest?
Did it ever occurred to you that this part of the maturing process -DOING it, not talking about it- may well wait until she's complied with other parts of her maturing process, namely being able to fend off by herself?
who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready?
I am her father. As in, being responsible for her wellbeing until she turns 18. As in, having the right to make decisions concerning to her life until the law considers she's ready to make them herself. As in, being in charge of protecting her, even from herself. That's who the hell I am.
considering how adolescent are vulnerable to manipulation
Of course they're vulnerable. We know that. But looks like you don't. Because if you did, you would realize that we parents are the shield behind which they can protect from it. "My dad/mom would kill me if I do it" is a powerful weapon against peer-pressure and manipulation by a cunning boy/girlfriend.
Besides, can't you see that you're contradicting yourself?
You say: "And it will happen, if she is ready, weather you like it or not" and then "considering how adolescent are vulnerable to manipulation". So which one is it then: She did it because she was ready, or she did because she was manipulated? The answer is: WE DON'T KNOW. Therefore, which alternative is safer: She's ready but she doesn't do it, or she's not ready and she does it? Which one brings more harmful consequences to her life, and I'm not talking only about pregnancy but about sexual hangups, self-esteem problems, etc.?
In this case, to err on the side of caution is appropriate.
So, if they are heterosexual, then it's okay to be supportive of them, but if they are gay / lesbian, then you will throw them out of your house and stop supporting them? Is that it?.
Don't be so dense. I've said she can have all the sex she wants, whether homo or hetero, when she's out there living her own life. I think that "she can do whatever she wants" covers both bases.
And I really don't appreciate the fact of you adding "homosexual" to my words and then placing them between quotes as if I had said such a thing. You use quotes when you QUOTE, not when you "creatively tamper" with other people's posts.
Anyway, the fact that you gave up on your children even before having them doesn't mean others should do the same. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/27/2008 8:46:49 PM | To rock_hunter:
Did it ever occurred to you that this part of the maturing process -DOING it, not talking about it- may well wait until she's complied with other parts of her maturing process, namely being able to fend off by herself?
The problem is, 18 is no magical number that suddenly makes a child ready for intimate relationship. Your daughter is a human being, and she deserves to be respected and heard. It's a relationship, a father-daughter relationship, not a dictatorship.
This being said, I added (homosexual) in your sentence in brackets because square brackets didn't work (they are used for the forums codes) and I needed to put your quote in context of mine:
Me: " if your sons and daughters discover that they are gay or lesbian, by all means, be supportive and let them live their life."
You: "And they can live their lives... in their own house, with their own money."
So your reply clearly was a response to mine, which was clearly about homosexual vs heterosexual situation. Let it be stated to all the readers, however, that the above quotes were the original one, allright? I have no intent to badly quote you, only to point out that your responses are not only defensives, but lack any aspect of nuances and grey zone: before 18, no, after 18, yes but let her go to how own place. What about the in between? What if she is 17? What if she is in love? You don't care? You REALLY think she is going to wait for your permission to have sex? You really believe she will not have sex until she is ready to leave the house? If you think so, you are in serious denial.
Yes, parents must protect their children, sometimes against themselves. But rigid, black-and-white stuck-up rules won't help. Read your own sentence:
She did it because she was ready, or she did because she was manipulated? The answer is: WE DON'T KNOW. Therefore, which alternative is safer: She's ready but she doesn't do it, or she's not ready and she does it?
Don't you see there are a lot more alternatives? First, if you DON'T KNOW, it's because your kid doesn't trust you. If you'd actually LISTEN to her, you'd know about her love life and about what's happening, you'd meet the guy, and you'd know a lot more. Second, if you don't know that, do you realize how many other things you don't know? You have no idea what she can do when she turns 14 to 18, these years are rough and most aprents arent even aware of 10% of what the adolescent live. And you think you can stop anything from happening? What I am saying is NOT to give up on our children. It is to LISTEN to them, for a change. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/28/2008 12:13:31 AM |
The problem is, 18 is no magical number that suddenly makes a child ready for intimate relationship. Your daughter is a human being, and she deserves to be respected and heard. It's a relationship, a father-daughter relationship, not a dictatorship.
Since the number varies with every person, the only true standard we have is the legal one. All the others are subjective.
Yes, she deserves to be respected and heard. In the same way, her parents deserve to be respected (as in, respecting the fact that they don't allow her to have sex under their roof nor until they consider she's ready) and heard (as in, acknowledging the fact that they have the maturity and experience she lacks, and know better).
Yes, it's a father-daughter relationship. Therefore, it's a dictatorship. Benevolent, but dictatorship still. We are here to be parents, not "pals".
So your reply clearly was a response to mine, which was clearly about homosexual vs heterosexual situation.
Wrong. My answer was clearly about ANY type of sexual relationship.
First, if you DON'T KNOW, it's because your kid doesn't trust you.
Wrong. It can be that "she doesn't know" either. But anyway, if the price for keeping her out of harm's way is that she "doesn't trust you", well, when she grows up she will understand. That's part of the price we pay in parenthood.
You have no idea what she can do when she turns 14 to 18, these years are rough and most aprents arent even aware of 10% of what the adolescent live.
Wrong. I have a very good idea of what she can do, after all, I was a teenager too. Of course those years are rough. That's why we need to be firm and steady when they're that age, to guide them through those years. If you become a bowl of jelly only to avoid being seen as a "dictator", you're not showing her that you're trustworthy, you're showing her that you are manipulable.
It is to LISTEN to them, for a change.
To LISTEN is one thing. To let them run wild or do things we know may harm them only to avoid being seen as "bad" or "dictators" is another.
You have misunderstood what parenthood is about. We're not "friends" nor "chums" nor "pals" to our children. We are parents. Will we be seen as "old-fashioned", "antiquated", "old codgers" or similar? That's the price we pay to raise them. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:01:03 PM | to Rock_Hunter
This is a very interesting debate, and I am, for one, certainly happy to have it. I hope you can keep it a constructive discussion, rather than a heated argument. Now, this being said, It seems to me you are caught into a paradigm in which the only alternative to "benevolent dictatorship" is "let them run wild" . You don't seem to realize these, nor a combination of these, aren't they only two alternatives.
If you take the time to read me, you will notice NOWHERE did I ever suggest we should let our children run wild, nor do whatever they want; nowhere did I suggest a parent has to be a "bowl of jelly", nor did I ever suggested a parent should be a "friend" or "pal" to his children. These words, these insinuations, you are reading them between my lines, even though i never even hinted this, because you are so cought into your authoritarian paradigm that you can only see a communicative, non-dictatorial approach to education as equal to a "laissez-faire" approach - which is absolutely NOT what I am saying here. Nor did I ever said children should be allowed not to respect their parents: on the contrary, I am actually talking about MUTUAL respect, rather than unilateral respect.
Of course, rock_hunter, ultimately, you are free to ignore everything I write and think you have the ultimate truth on children education - and frankly, it won't change my life. But what do you have to loose by opening up to, at least, a part of what I am saying? I mean truly trying to understand what I am saying here? It seems to me that you've got nothing to loose, and all to win.
Now, what I am actually saying about children education, I didn't invent. I am talking about some workshop that was designed by a well known conselling therapist to help parents with children and parenting problems. It is called the "Parental Efficiency Training", from Thomas Gordon, a workshop that has helped several million parents worldwide. (Google it). Isn't it at least worth considering for a few minutes of your time, before blowing it off? Again, I am NOT advertising free-for-all laissez-faire. I am offering you to try to break your paradigm and see beyond dictatorship vs bowl-of-jelly loophole.
You said:
Since the number varies with every person, the only true standard we have is the legal one. All the others are subjective.
Well, since you agree that this number varies with every person, why not try to understand your daughter enough to figure out this number? It may be subjective, but it's not arbitrary: it should be dependent on your daughter's ability to take care of her life herself, and her level of maturity. Which you stay the judge of, by the way.
The old "I am doing this for your own good" line never works. How many people feel reassured and happy that someone did something "for their own good" ? Would you feel that way if, say, Bush was telling you he was sending your children to Irak "for your own good" ? If you wouldn't appreciate, why would you expect your daughter to like it? How can your daughter learn to do something for HER own good, herself, if someone keeps doing it for her instead? You need to teach her self discipline, not imposed, external discipline. Yes, it's a lot harder. But it's a lot more rewarding and she will keep a much stronger relationship with you through the years if you do so. How many children just ended up very, very distant from their parent?
You have to ask yourself about your own motivations. If your daughter is, say, 17, and she decide she is in love with someone, and eventually brings that person home and decide she wants to spend the night with him or her, you have to ask yourself why you would say no. Is it because you TRULY thinks she will get... what? abused? Then have a conversation with her about when one is in love, about being blind or not, abould feelings and if a relationship matters and how to know it, about manipulation and how to detect if you are being manipulated. Worry she'd get pregnant? Have a conversation about protection, the pill, condoms. STDs? same conversation. You can then judge if she is really in love, if she knows him/her for a long time, if she is ready, if she is being respected, and how mature she is. And then, if you STILL feel like it's not ok that this happens under your roof, then ask yourself: Why is that so? It is truly because you want the best for her.... or because it makes *YOU* uncomfortable? In other words, is it about her ... or about you?
And what if she turns 18? You are going to throw her out of her home because she wants to be intimate with someone? Maybe she wants to pursue some higher studies, maybe there is no way she can do this if she has to leave your house because it's hard to study and work at the same time? And if she choose to do so, then she must be penalized not to live a full sex life, just because YOU don't like it? Or penalized to trash her studies and perhaps all of her future, because of you? Think about it. Seriously? I am asking you to nuance your thoughts. To realize that things aren't black and white. And that your daughter deserve to be treated like a full human being, no matter how old she is. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/29/2008 9:14:32 AM | | Any consenting adult that has a live in relationship with a person is welcome to stay in my guest room. My children's high school or college BF or GF? No way. I am single myself and do not have sleepovers in front of the kids so I expect the same level of respect from them. Accepting my child's sexual orientation and allowing them to fu*k under my roof are two different things. What they do on their own turf is their business but under my roof I set the rules. There is a huge difference between 30-something adults and teenagers. Teenagers should have boundries and I'm not running a Love Shack. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/29/2008 10:29:51 AM | | for me there is no double standard, if my daughter chose to be gay then the same rules would apply, no b/f or g/f in your room with the door shut period. i dont care how old my daughter is, if shes still living at home, she should respect my rules, there will be no sex happening in my home by my children if i can help it, now i realize kids will try to sneak around and all of that but i will do everything in my power to make sure it doesnt happen inside my house. hypethically if she was gay i will say again, the same rules apply. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/29/2008 10:54:56 AM | I hope you can keep it a constructive discussion, rather than a heated argument.
I wasn't the one asking "who the hell you are", was I?
I am actually talking about MUTUAL respect, rather than unilateral respect.
I'm also talking about MUTUAL respect. However, as I said, in a father-daughter relationship, the final authority lies on the father.
Again, I am NOT advertising free-for-all laissez-faire. I am offering you to try to break your paradigm and see beyond dictatorship vs bowl-of-jelly loophole.
Sorry, but there are things where you should be flexible, and things where you shouldn't. Underage sex is NOT open to discussion.
And perhaps you should see beyond your "she must have sex if she wants" paradigm. Because I'm not saying "she must not have sex". I'm saying "to have sex, she needs to meet certain conditions, maturity-wise, including being of age and being able to face the consequences".
Why is that so? It is truly because you want the best for her.... or because it makes *YOU* uncomfortable? In other words, is it about her ... or about you?
It's because I want the best for her. I could ask you the same: Why are you advocating so much that she must have sex? Is it because *YOU* are being cock-blocked by some father?
How many children just ended up very, very distant from their parent?
How many children just ended BEING parents?
If your daughter is, say, 17, and she decide she is in love with someone, and eventually brings that person home and decide she wants to spend the night with him or her, you have to ask yourself why you would say no.
I would say no, because it's my home, and because she's 17.
And what if she turns 18? You are going to throw her out of her home because she wants to be intimate with someone?
No. I will tell her that while she lives under my roof, my rules apply. If she wants to have sex so badly, she can always get a job, get an apartment, and do the deed.
Maybe she wants to pursue some higher studies, maybe there is no way she can do this if she has to leave your house because it's hard to study and work at the same time? And if she choose to do so, then she must be penalized not to live a full sex life, just because YOU don't like it?
She won't die if she doesn't have sex in my house, will she? Again, why are you so focused on "she must have sex"?
Or penalized to trash her studies and perhaps all of her future, because of you?
Do you know how many young girls trash their studies and all their future because of a teenage pregnancy? | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:13:07 PM | Rock_hunter, you are missing my point entirely.
You say:
Why are you advocating so much that she must have sex?
And perhaps you should see beyond your "she must have sex if she wants" paradigm.
She won't die if she doesn't have sex in my house, will she? Again, why are you so focused on "she must have sex"?
First, you are the one who is talking about "having sex". I am talking about "having a full love live", including having intimate relationship, and not only "having a sex life". You are trivializing what your daughter might live.
Second, I am not saying that i absolutely want her to have intimate relationship. I am only saying that, at 17 years old, and even more so at 18 years old, your daughter's love life is her own. She may choose to tell you, ask advices, or most likely with your attitude, she won't. And what you don't seem to understand is, if she wants to live her love life fully, she will. Period. She might go somewhere else, she might do this at home while you aren't around, she might even do it in unsafe places, outside, at the back of a car, or whatever. And now, THAT is unsafe. THAT is dangerous. And there is NOTHING you can do about it. If you think she wouldn't do this because she knows you'd be mad, you really have yet to learn a lot more about teenagers.
So your philosophy, basically, is: I don't care, I'd rather not know about it, I'd rather lie to myself and believe she won't do it, just don't do it where I can see it. And that's the best way for her to take risks, to be in an unsafe situation, where you can't help her at all. You are way better to tolerate, in a moderate and controlled way, that it might be happening at home (providing you met the person and find him or her trustworthy, you have talked with your daughter and you judge that she is mature enough to understand every impact such as pregnancy and stds) rather than act stubbornly, refuse her any privacy... and end up with a teenager who close up all of her life to you, stops communicating, and do it ANYWAY behind your back - possibly at place where you also have drugs, violence, abuse and so on. Don't you understand my point?
Read your own answers. You are contradicting yourself:
I would say no, because it's my home, and because she's 17.
No. I will tell her that while she lives under my roof, my rules apply. If she wants to have sex so badly, she can always get a job, get an apartment, and do the deed.
Is it about protecting her because she is not an adult? really? yet she is 18 in the above example. So, basically, what you are saying is that it has in reality nothing to do with the age, and nothing to do with protecting your child. It's only an excuse so you don't feel bad. The truth is, the idea your daughter might have a full love life makes you feel so uncomfortable you don't want to see it in your house, even if she is, by 18, by that same law you tell me you respect, a full fledge adult.
But, talking about double standard, of course, I imagine it would not cross your mind NOT to have any intimate relationship with your wife or gf, behind closed doors of course, while your daughter is in the house, right? Note that I am not suggesting that your daughter should do this in front of you. But behind closed doors, at 18, she is an adult and why wouldn't she get the same right as you to explore her love life? Now, some teen might not even be mature enough by 19, and then it should be prevented and watched carefully, and some will be mature enough even at 17. But the point is, again, that you are way better as a parent to have an OPEN communication channel and be tolerant about what's happening under your roof - but also under your control - than be stubborn and be totally unaware and unable to protect her of what WILL happen anyway, but this time away from you.
How many children just ended BEING parents?
Do you know how many young girls trash their studies and all their future because of a teenage pregnancy?
And out of these, how many became parent out of having sex at home, and how many became parents out of having sex outside of home, behind their parent's back? How many of these got pregnant because their parent can't deal with this issue, can't find the courage to break the taboo and actually talk about it openly and respect their daughter's need for a love life, rather than doing the ostrich about it?
It's because I want the best for her.
And if you throw her out of your house because she fell in love and wants to live that, and can't in your home, how is that going to help her NOT getting pregnant, exactly? How is it going to help her with her studies? With her dignity? With her self confidence?
However, as I said, in a father-daughter relationship, the final authority lies on the father.
Yes. So long as this authority is fair, not arbitrary.
I will tell her that while she lives under my roof, my rules apply.
And in doing so, the message you are telling her is all about double standards. About how she is not the same value as you are. About how you are unfair, arbitrary, "do what i say not what i do" type of thing.
You have yet to demonstrate why it would be fair for your 18 years old daughter not to have a love life, or be thrown out of the house to tend and pay for all her needs herself rather than, for instance, study? yet why it would also be fair that YOU are allowed to have a full love life under that same roof. Why, what's the link between paying the house, and having a full love life? If you have a friend and his date traveling to your area and you decide to host theme to your place, are you going to have them sleep in 2 different bedroom? Would that "house rule" also apply to them? Think about it. If the answer is yes, then this should show you that it has nothing to do with protecting your daughter, and everything to do with your OWN taboos. And if the answer is no, then ask yourself why you would have double standards for your daughter, especially if she is 17 or 18 ?
Why are you advocating so much that she must have sex? Is it because *YOU* are being****blocked by some father?
Talk to me about a respectful debate. But no, Mr. Rock-Hunter, on the contrary. I had parents that were intelligent enough to buy me condoms when I was 15 years old, as they gave me a speech about protecting myself. I had my girl friend living with me and sleeping in the same bed under my parent's roof for 2 years before I left home with her, when I was young. I had great parents, and I got no STDs, and put no girl pregnant.
Maybe you are the one who was****blocked by some father, to reproduce exactly the same parental behavior you were hammered with? | |
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| double standards
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:21:56 PM |
There is a huge difference between 30-something adults and teenagers. Teenagers should have boundries and I'm not running a Love Shack.
Ah, I see. So, tell me, Carolann, where exactly do you set your limits?
What if your child is 18? 20? 24? 29? What makes it magical at 30 years old then?
Any consenting adult that has a live in relationship with a person is welcome to stay in my guest room.
What if this consenting adult is a friend of yours rather than your own daughter or son, yet he or she is 18 years old, or 20. Would it be ok under your roof? What if they are 22? 24?
Note that at 18 years old, your son / daughter *IS* by law a consenting adult. So where do you draw the limit? What part of that guts reaction is based on fear / taboo, and what part is truly to protect your child? | |
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Posted: 7/29/2008 5:11:51 PM | Nosoup,
No door closed at all. I certainly would have a difficult time condoning a gay-anything at that age. | |
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Posted: 7/29/2008 5:18:43 PM | Carol...
Friggn RIGHT ON. I'm not running a brothel either. And they better be educated and prepared for the consequences of ...should I say it...screwing around.
These kids now a days have too much media and video influences to be thinking about f*cking. Keep these kids loaded with school, sports and homework. If they want a job and have the grades and desire, then have at it....this is my tax paying future! | |
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Posted: 7/30/2008 1:49:03 AM | First, you are the one who is talking about "having sex". I am talking about "having a full love live", including having intimate relationship, and not only "having a sex life". You are trivializing what your daughter might live.
Oh, please. If you want to hold hands, look at the eyes, kiss, etc., you can do it at the living room or in the park. Sex is the only part that requires absolute privacy, which is the reason for the "no locked doors" policy.
And there is NOTHING you can do about it.
Wrong. There are many things you can do about it. But the main thing is, you don't give up in advance, as you are doing.
you are way better as a parent to have an OPEN communication channel and be tolerant about what's happening under your roof - but also under your control - than be stubborn and be totally unaware and unable to protect her of what WILL happen anyway, but this time away from you.
An OPEN communication channel is not a synonymous with "do whatever you like" attitude. Besides, I find strange that you consider her mature enough to have sex, but not mature enough as to not put herself into a dangerous situation, nor consider her mature enough as to delay sex until she's fully ready, not only emotionally ready.
If you think she wouldn't do this because she knows you'd be mad, you really have yet to learn a lot more about teenagers.
And you really have yet to learn a lot more about parents. And ALSO, about teenagers. Because, if you consider her mature enough to have sex, why can't you consider her mature enough as to respect her parents enough to do as they say?
So your philosophy, basically, is: (a lot of drivel)
My philosophy is: I will do what I think is better for my children, until they reach an age where they can decide by themselves. Since this age is fully subjective, I'll take the legal limit as a benchmark.
And out of these, how many became parent out of having sex at home, and how many became parents out of having sex outside of home, behind their parent's back? How many of these got pregnant because their parent can't deal with this issue, can't find the courage to break the taboo and actually talk about it openly and respect their daughter's need for a love life, rather than doing the ostrich about it?
Again, since when "deal with this issue" is synonymous with "giving her a condom and hope for the best"? To talk to her, explain why she can't have sex at home, and expect that she's mature enough to understand, is also "deal with this issue".
Break your paradigm: The answer to "want to have sex" is NOT always "yes".
And in doing so, the message you are telling her is all about double standards. About how she is not the same value as you are. About how you are unfair, arbitrary, "do what i say not what i do" type of thing.
Oh, please. The standard is only one: You have sex when you are mature enough to face ALL consequences.
I had parents that were intelligent enough to buy me condoms when I was 15 years old, as they gave me a speech about protecting myself. I had my girl friend living with me and sleeping in the same bed under my parent's roof for 2 years before I left home with her, when I was young.
I wonder if your 15 years old girlfriend's parents were so enthusiastic about it. I can imagine your pre-date speech:
Dad: "You take care of my daughter, don't drive too fast and bring her at eleven".
You: "Don't worry sir, I've got a condom and my dad told me how to protect myself".
Maybe you are the one who was****blocked by some father, to reproduce exactly the same parental behavior you were hammered with?
Looks like the pre-date speech didn't go as well as you expected, did it? Was the hammer heavy?
I had great parents, and I got no STDs, and put no girl pregnant.
Anyway, you say "I" got no STDs (unlike that full 25% of teenagers who DID got a STD) and "I" did not get a girl pregnant (unlike so many fellow POFers whose BC failed). So you were very lucky. Does it mean everybody will be? Where's that 15-years old girlfriend of yours, anyway?
Again, if you're mature enough to have sex, you're mature enough to delay sex. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/1/2008 9:26:07 AM | | I would love kids what ever they were. The children have to realize not every accepts this life style and don't push it doun peoples throats. Is there a double standard YES | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/5/2008 6:23:56 PM | To rock-Hunter:
I am starting to see quite a clear pattern in your responses.
You seem to be blocked into binary thinking. 0 or 1. Good or Bad. Yes or No. White or Black. No gray zone. No nuance. No possible discussion anywhere in-between.
Let's take a look at your answers so far:
If she's old enough for that, she's old enough to have her own apartment, where she can do whatever she wants.
What about if she reaches the point she is old enough to want to explore her sexuality, yet not old enough to leave home and have her own apartment? For you, impossible: 0 or 1. 0 = No sexuality, 1 = fully mature, out of my house, care for her own apartment. No in-between?
"My dad/mom would kill me if I do it" is a powerful weapon against peer-pressure and manipulation by a cunning boy/girlfriend.
What about other ways to handle peer pressure and manipulation by a cunning boy/girlfriend? What about education? Trust? discussion? What about carefully evaluating your daughter's maturity level and increasing the freedom level until she can tend for her own, regardless of wether it is in your home or not? 0 or 1. If I threaten my daughter, scare her enough, of course she will not have sex. What about if she decides, at 17, she is old enough for this and you are just so closed up that you just can't understand her life, and do it anyway, behind your back? Yet for you, 0 or 1. She can't do if the parent is dictatorial enough, if she is scared enough. No gray zone.
Since the number varies with every person, the only true standard we have is the legal one. All the others are subjective.
What about moral standards? What about evaluating your daughter's maturity? Can't deal with gray zone. 0 or 1. 0 = before 18, not mature. 1 = after 18, mature. No in between.
if you become a bowl of jelly only to avoid being seen as a "dictator", you're not showing her that you're trustworthy, you're showing her that you are manipulable.
You are so caught in your binary vision of the world, you didn't even realize I never said even once that she must have everything she want, or that the parent should be a bowl of jelly. What about other ways of parenting? Why would other education means than dictatorship be automatically labeled as "bowl of jelly"? 0 or 1. 0: dictator. 1: bowl of jelly. No in between. No gray zone for you.
To LISTEN is one thing. To let them run wild or do things we know may harm them only to avoid being seen as "bad" or "dictators" is another.
Not only it is definitely another thing to let them run wild, but it's not something I said a parent should do. Again, binary thinking: I say listen, you say that means to let them run wild. 0 or 1. Binary thinking. What about listening to them and judging their maturity? Nope. For you, it can only be back or white.
Underage sex is NOT open to discussion.
Why? Because that would take some nuance you just can't grasp? 0 or 1. 0: no discussion. 1: let her do whatever she want?!? who said that? certainly not me. Yet you cannot imagine any in-between.
perhaps you should see beyond your "she must have sex if she wants" paradigm
Why are you advocating so much that she must have sex?
why are you so focused on "she must have sex"?
And here you go again. I am adocating to listen to your daughter and evaluate why you'd rather take the risk that she will do it anyway behind your back, and control it in a safe environment if you feel she is ready to do it anyway - yet all you can read is that I am advocating that she must have sex. 0 and 1. Binary thinking. No grey zone: if I am saying it's wrong to be a dictator about your 17 years old daughter's sex life, of course according to your binary pattern, that must mean I say she must have sex. Yet I am not.
There are many things you can do about it. But the main thing is, you don't give up in advance, as you are doing.
0 or 1. If I decide to use other ways to educate my children, than fear and dictatorship - then I am "giving up". If I decide, after careful discussions and through years of parenting and communication, that my 17 years old is ready for this, then according to you, I am giving up on her? Black or white, again.
An OPEN communication channel is not a synonymous with "do whatever you like" attitude.
It is, indeed not. So why do you see it that way? Why do you automatically understand it as a 0 or 1 situation? 0: no communication. 1: communication = "do whatever you like" ?!? What about communicating AND yet controlling and educating?
if you consider her mature enough to have sex, why can't you consider her mature enough as to respect her parents enough to do as they say?
What about if she consider HERSELF mature enough to have sex, and therefore concludes you have no more rights to regulate her life as she feels she is a full fledge responsible human being? But no. For you: before 18, not mature. After, mature. 0 or 1. Mature: will not want to have sex. Not mature: may want to, but I'll prevent it as a father. Riiiight. 0 or 1. No gray zone.
Again, since when "deal with this issue" is synonymous with "giving her a condom and hope for the best"?
It's not and where did I ever write this? Go back and read my answers in this thread, and I dare you to find one single sentence promoting the idea of "giving her a condom and hope for the best". You are reading this between my lines because you have a serious binary thinking pattern to overcome. It's your own interpretation that makes you see this as a black and white situation. Or maybe, it is because you are so helpless as a parent, so devoid of communicative and evaluation tools, that you feel you have no influence over your child other than having hir fear you? How about, "deal with the issue" as in "educate" ?
Break your paradigm: The answer to "want to have sex" is NOT always "yes".
That's precisely my point. It is NOT always "yes". But sometimes, it may be. One thing is sure, it is not always "no". You are the one who can only think in yes and no terms, always or never. 0 or 1.
if you're mature enough to have sex, you're mature enough to delay sex.
But you are ready to delay sex until what, exactly? For you, it can only be 0: no sex. 1: mature enough to delay sex when my parent says so. How about some gray zones now: how about mature enough to delay sex until she is deeply in love? Or until she is with the same boy for over a year? Or until she FEELS she is ready? Did it ever occurred to you SHE may see delay and maturity a whole different ways than you do? That she may perfectly sees the arbitrary in your decisions? If you are in binary mode, 0 or 1, doesn't mean she is.
So your philosophy, basically, is: (a lot of drivel)
May I point out that, as you said yourself and had the gentleness to point out:
You use quotes when you QUOTE, not when you "creatively tamper" with other people's posts.
Isn't that EXACTLY what this is all about - your double standards and your inability to respect someone else? Because, wether it is about respecting my own rights to be fully quoted correctly, or your 17 years old daughter's right to be listened and respected in her self esteem and rights to her own love life, it all come down to the same thing: do as I say, not do as I do. "Don't have sex under my roof (even though I will not refrain from having sex under your roof)" and "Don't creatively temper with other people's posts (yet I'll do exactly the same myself)" seems to be your life philosophy.
I pity your children. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/5/2008 10:45:03 PM | You seem to be blocked into binary thinking. 0 or 1. Good or Bad. Yes or No. White or Black. No gray zone. No nuance. No possible discussion anywhere in-between.
When it's about my children's wellbeing, yes, it's a binary thing: It's Ok, or it's not ok. Sorry, no "gray" zones. Discussion? Yes. But the buck stops with me.
I pity your children.
The feeling is mutual. It will be hard for your children to look for a father only to find a "buddy".
Besides, I wonder why you're so willing to believe those "child-rearing books" you like to mention, while at the same time attack or dismiss all the real life experience so many parents are posting. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/5/2008 11:20:25 PM | This weekend I saw a pregnant 13 year old girl from my son's grade school. Her older sister who isn't much older has a toddler. Permissive parenting rocks! 
I don't care if my kids are gay or straight, I don't want them having sex until they are mature enough to accept the responsiblities that come with it, call me backwards if you must. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/5/2008 11:58:03 PM | This weekend I saw a pregnant 13 year old girl from my son's grade school. Her older sister who isn't much older has a toddler.
I suppose their parents weren't binary. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:19:02 AM | Ms.Beavenhouse said:
I don't care if my kids are gay or straight, I don't want them having sex until they are mature enough to accept the responsiblities that come with it, call me backwards if you must.
Of course, this is also exactly where I stand: I don't want my kids having sex until they are mature enough to accept the responsibilities that come with it.
I am only challenging the idea that this should never happen under a parent's roof, or that "maturity" level is defined by the legal age of 18 years old, which is completely arbitrary.
Since it is impossible to prevent an adolescent to have sex because you just can't follow him around everywhere he goes, I am also challenging the idea that a parent can only use scare tactics to prevent this from happening. If you want you child to become responsible, you have to work, from his birth all the way to his adolescence, on developing his SELF-DISCIPLINE, the only very efficient way to make him into a responsible adult. This can only work through communication and only when a parent is never, never arbitrary in his decisions. Why not read Thomas Gordon's book on parenting before judging? Nobody is advocating permissive parenting. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:22:04 AM |
This weekend I saw a pregnant 13 year old girl from my son's grade school. Her older sister who isn't much older has a toddler. I suppose their parents weren't binary.
On the contrary, they must have been binary:
they decided to go all the way to permissivity (all) instead of being dictators (nothing).
That is PRECISELY what being binary is about: not having any gray zone. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 9:01:20 AM |
I am only challenging the idea that this should never happen under a parent's roof, or that "maturity" level is defined by the legal age of 18 years old, which is completely arbitrary.
I don't even have sex under my own roof since I'm not in a relationship. My sex life is a secret because I don't want my kids to believe that I condone sex outside a committed mature relationship. I respect and care for my lover enough to not pretend to have the emotion to invest in a relationship so I can get laid a couple times a week in my own bed.
My sons have been taught they are responsible for their actions and choices. Teaching children morality goes a long way vs teaching them to be afraid of sex. They understand sex should be respected and it's primary nature is for procreation not pleasure. They know that consentual sex is more then just a woman's saying no, how some people equate sex with love and they must not cause harm to another person for their own gradification. They understand the pitfalls of sex and the rewarding exchange that can take place if they choose to wait for the right person. My 13 year old has a better understanding of sexuality then most 18 year olds but that doesn't mean he has the maturity to handle it.
If they have sex, then they will have to sneak around like I do. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:01:40 AM | Wel, Conscious when I was young single and never married my living spaces had one rule . There weren't any.
But now as a single Mom, my views and practices have changed greatly. When you have a young daughter or son you love then one day your views may change as well.
I am 45 most of my friends are within a few years of my age. I do not tend to befriend young teens or 20 somethings and invite them to do the humpty dance under my roof. Just because a kid can join the army or buy a beer does not mean I have to feel comfortable about their having bed partners in my home.
When my son or daughter is on their own, finished college and self supporting etc I imagine they will be welcome to bring their SO to my home for the weekend. Provided of course that I 'the homeowner' am comfortable with that person. In certain cases I may not be and they are always welcome to get a hotel room regardless of sexual orientation, gender or their ability to pay for it. I also reserve the right to change my rules whenever the hell I want to. My philosophy is this, I pay the bills I make the rules those that do not like my rules can leave or sleep elsewhere. I can be as unbending or as grey as I want to be because there is no law saying I have to be politically correct in my own home.
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| double standards
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:00:50 PM | I think conscious has a lot of ideas that are correct.. Open communication is essential.. Understanding that your 17/18 yr old may be ready for a healthy sexual relationship even if we aren't prepared for them to have that. Being sexual in no way makes our children/young adults either bad, dirty, or irresponsible.. ESPECIALLY if we have taught them and emulated responsible behaviour to them throughout their lives. At some point we have to trust them to make correct decisions. How do you know when your child is ready to cross the road by him/herself? How do you know when your child is ready to ride their first bike, stay home alone, babysit someone else's kids, drive a vehicle, etc. We are constantly making choices and determining when our children are ready and it has everything to do with our communication skills and comprehension of our children as who they are becoming.
That being said, I personally can't fathom the idea of my daughter, who is presently 18 1/2 yrs old, spending intimate times with a significant other in my home. I haven't brought anyone into my home, I haven't had sexual relationships in front of them, and the idea of it does make 'me' uncomfortable. On the other hand, I have allowed her the freedom to spend time over at friends. Usually this is with females.. but there have been times there are males around... and I have had very detailed conversations on how to protect herself if she does become intimate and how to protect herself from becoming a victim of date rape (with or without drugs). She's a smart, motivated, and self-respecting young woman. At this point in time she is not actively involved with someone, but should she become involved with someone it would be her business.. but at least I know that not allowing her to have sexual relationships within my home is because of MY COMFORT... and nothing to do with protecting her. Puhlease!!!.. it can and WILL happen out there .. she can and WILL SNEAK if she wants to do it.
I don't have the answer. I've told her that I don't condone uncommitted sexual relationships, I've told her that if she is in a committed relationship (or not) and becomes active, to ensure she is protecting herself.. from both pregnancy and STI's. I've told her that she will have to find somewhere else to share that with her partner.. maybe he has his own place... maybe his parents will allow them... maybe they sneak it when I'm/his parents are out... All I know is that I can't allow it inside my home.. at least, not right now. What the future holds I couldn't tell you...
Furthermore... for those saying you will stop her/him from being influenced by becoming their shield... by them becoming afraid of disappointing/angering you... you're dreaming. It was done to me and it had a very negative effect. Instead of developing a loving relationship with someone I knew, someone my age, I ended up getting involved with the first 'man' who knew how to take what he wanted.. .and he happened to be 37 yrs of age as opposed to my 18 yrs at the time. Ended up with two beautiful children and a very emotionally, mentally, and at times physically abusive marriage from which I'm still healing parts of myself. So, in the end, I wish I'd given my virginity to one of the younger pups who knew that I wasn't a whore (well my ex knew it but decided to play it off that way anyway).. and could have developed a healthy relationship.
Don't be naive.. we can't control them.. only empower them. Yes, I understand the desire to not have closed doors... but I also know the benefits of an honest open relationship.
And, on another note, I'm a parent of both a female and a male child.. and it IS different, even though I've done my best to ensure that he has been taught the same lessons of respect and safety. The main difference is in the attitude of my ex-husband to each child. So my question then becomes, how many of you, honestly, hold your children to a different standard?
rock_hard.. you speak as if you have a daughter.. .but you don't .. at least not from what I've read/known of you. Are you going to enforce these same rules you are extolling to your son? | |
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