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| double standards
Posted: 8/8/2008 7:46:56 AM | rock_hard.. you speak as if you have a daughter.. .but you don't .. at least not from what I've read/known of you. Are you going to enforce these same rules you are extolling to your son?
Actually it's rock_hunter, although I find your Freudian slip quite amusing. 
Yes, I'm going to enforce these same rules to my son. In the same way I'm not too willing to have a daughter becoming a teenage single mom, I'm equally unwilling to have a son enburdened by child support payments even before starting to live.
Furthermore... for those saying you will stop her/him from being influenced by becoming their shield... by them becoming afraid of disappointing/angering you... you're dreaming.
I don't think a shield will "stop" them from being influenced, but it will make easier for them to fight it.
When I was 12, one of my mates brought us a marijuana cigarette. We were six kids, and I was the only one who didn't try it. My excuse? "If my dad smells that in my breath, he will kill me". Later, I found out that only 2 of the kids were eager to smoke it. The others, simply surrendered to peer pressure to avoid embarrasment.
I think you are confusing a "shield" with a "shroud". A shroud is imposed on you. A shield is given to you. A shield is useful only if you want to use it. My dad gave me a shield, and I'm grateful for it. What is sad is when you need a shield, but you don't have one because your "cool dad" didn't bother in giving you one. | |
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Posted: 8/8/2008 11:06:26 AM | | i totally agree Ms. B. Whether or not my children are straight or not has nothing to do with the issue. There needs to be some definate bounderies. I was not allowed to have the door closed with a boy in there, and the same rules will apply to my kids. I will educate my children on the risks and results of having sex, the best i can hope for is they take it seriously. | |
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Posted: 8/8/2008 7:17:15 PM |
Actually it's rock_hunter, although I find your Freudian slip quite amusing.
LOL.. not sure that it is a good slip ;) ... but quite funny nonetheless.
I agree that guidelines and expectations of our children are essential.. and definitely, at the age of 12 yrs, they stand up as a form of protection for our children. However, it depends on the relationship as well... What are you going to do if/when you discover your child is having sex at 16.. 17.. 18 yrs of age.. by sneaking around? How then are you going to handle the situation?
I'm glad to hear you will treat your son the same way.. because I have evidenced it too many times not being done.
I do have to ask you another question now though... rock_HUNTER.. lol. You said that you do not wish to see your son encumbered with child support payments at a young age.. which is obviously fair. However, I didn't see you make mention of him becoming a 'father' at a young age... so do tell me, if it did happen, would you expect him to actually participate as a father and be part of the child's life.. or only to provide child support?
In any case, it isn't an easy situation.. and getting back to the topic at hand.. I feel it would be complicated regardless of the sexual orientation of my kids. I wouldn't want either of them to close the doors behind them when they have someone over with whom they are in a relationship.. | |
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Posted: 8/8/2008 10:54:26 PM | What are you going to do if/when you discover your child is having sex at 16.. 17.. 18 yrs of age.. by sneaking around? How then are you going to handle the situation?
There are things I can control and things that I can't. I can control what happens under my roof, and I can control the way my kid is taught to act. I can reduce the risk, but not eliminate it.
How will I handle the situation if it arises? Well, I'll cross that bridge when I reach it. No magical solutions, nor "Mr. X's book says that".
You said that you do not wish to see your son encumbered with child support payments at a young age.. which is obviously fair. However, I didn't see you make mention of him becoming a 'father' at a young age... so do tell me, if it did happen, would you expect him to actually participate as a father and be part of the child's life.. or only to provide child support?
To be honest, I don't know. It sounds nice to say that he will act as a father, but having a child fathering a child? He can't even take care of himself yet, and now he needs to take care of a girl and a child?
Yes, it can be done. But he would lose a lot. So, the best solution would be to stay out of trouble in the first place. I owe that not only to my own child, but to some other guy's daughter who is the other element in this equation.
And I'll give my best to fulfill that responsibility, never mind how "uncool" or "dictator" or "binary" others think I am. Let these others bet with their own children's lives, not with mine's. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 11:00:41 AM | Hello Veiled Inveigler, and thank you for your detailed and nuanced answer. :)
I bet you have great communication and deep, rich relationship with your kids, the way you seem to be handling parenting.
I think it takes a great deal of courage and lucidity to be able, just like you do, to separate what we do, as adults, for us, and what we do, as parents, for children. Just like there is no "legal" date that makes it OK to first cross the street, babysit someone else's kid, and so on, it's all about education and trust, in the end.
I also think, given what I read from you so far, that if you started to be regularly sexually active at home, with a regular boyfriend, you'd probably start accepting this from your 18 and half years old too, because emulation, and the absence of double standard, is such an important thing for parents. What do you think?
In any events, kudos to you for this intervention here and let it be known if I find the right person to have kids with one day, I hope she will have the same healthy attitude about communication and children's education. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 11:13:19 AM |
What are you going to do if/when you discover your child is having sex at 16.. 17.. 18 yrs of age.. by sneaking around? How then are you going to handle the situation? There are things I can control and things that I can't. I can control what happens under my roof, and I can control the way my kid is taught to act. I can reduce the risk, but not eliminate it.
It is precisely because you can only control what's happening under your roof that you should, carefully and under certain conditions, let it happen where you can control it.
If your goal is to "reduce the risk" then it is the way to go. Threatening to kill her if she has sex, and refusing anything related to this in your home, may be the way to make YOU feel better, but it's definitely NOT going to reduce the risk, it will only INCREASE it.
How will I handle the situation if it arises? Well, I'll cross that bridge when I reach it.
I see. How will i do when I have spent all my money? Bah! Let's not make a budget, i'll just decide when it happens. Well, education is a long process, it takes years of work to get to the point where you have an adolescent that respects you and trust you, rather than a rebelious adolescent who sneaks behind your back. You'd better start thinking about it now, because when it will happen, it will be too late to do anything about it.
So, the best solution would be to stay out of trouble in the first place.
We agree on this.
I owe that not only to my own child, but to some other guy's daughter who is the other element in this equation. And I'll give my best to fulfill that responsibility, never mind how "uncool" or "dictator" or "binary" others think I am.
If you'd really give your best to fulfill that responsability, rock_hunter, you would open up to the idea that you do not hold the only truth about children education, and hear it when people tell you important things about this.
We don't fight right now about how important it is to keep a control over your child's life and death matters, such as pregnancy and aids. We both agree about how important it is! However, the point is, your strict "dictator" and binary method will fail, as 99.9% of every dictatorial parent who end up with adolescent finds out sooner or later. Learn that now, read about it, change your ways, or it will happen to you too. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 10:43:02 PM | Hello to you as well ConsciousSoul, and thank you for your kind words and response.
Communication is essential in any relationship, whether between two adults or between parents and a child.. but I am confident I'm preaching to the choir with you when I say that.
You are correct in that I have a very wonderful and enriching relationship with my kids although I have to admit that sometimes being open with them can be miscontrued as a 'friendship' during the teenage years and I have had to put my foot down once or twice as they mistook the boundary.. lol. No harm done because, while I had to ensure the boundary was present, my communication with them was open enough that they understood why I did so.. and realized the difference. I haven't had to do that in a while mind you ;)
In regards to this:
I also think, given what I read from you so far, that if you started to be regularly sexually active at home, with a regular boyfriend, you'd probably start accepting this from your 18 and half years old too, because emulation, and the absence of double standard, is such an important thing for parents. What do you think?
I have to be honest and say at the present time I'm unsure of what I would do in that situation. I can't, for the life of me, imagine bringing someone home.. or a regular boyfriend.. for sexual intimacy. At least not right now. Then again, if it did become a regular relationship and the gentleman became a part of our lives.. then it would only be the next logical step.
I think there would be a lot of issues to consider in this scenario and while I would hate for you to think I'm not 'budgeting' for a possible investment, I will have to take one out of rock_hunter's books to cross that bridge when I get there. What I do know is that I cannot get up on my soapbox and say "No way, No how"... to it. I've done that before and ended up with egg on my face.. lol.
Right now as it stands, however, I'm not sure I would still permit it to occur. Like I already stated though, as things stand, I still can't imagine sharing sexual intimacies with a partner under my roof right now WHEN my kids are at home. AND you know what, the kids don't want to come home to that either... trust me, the topic HAS come up in discussions... lol.
And finally ConsciousSoul, I hope you do indeed find the right woman to have kids with. I'm sure she will be as open as you desire her to be and that you will both make wonderful parents.  While reading books and gaining knowledge isn't the answer to everything, I fully believe that it allows us to see things from different perspectives, to determine other methods of action and/or reaction that we might have otherwise not considered, and allows us the opportunity to pick and choose that which works best for our own belief/value system. I'm sure your children will benefit from your care, concern, tolerance, and communication skills.
-- Best of luck to you.. and your  !! | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 10:57:58 PM | rock_hunter, thank you for your honest answers. Nobody can deny the love and protection you have for your son. It is wonderful and beautiful.. and he is very lucky to have a father who cares so much.
I think you said a lot when you said that you'd have to 'cross that bridge' when you get to it. Raising children to respect sexuality for the huge responsibility it is.. for what can be produced from it and yet to allow them to develop a healthy sexual persona.. isn't easy to achieve... especially with all the confusing images and attitudes that are available to them in this day and age. Our children know 10x if not more than we did by the time they are 7-9 yrs old... and by the time they hit highschool, well I believe it is about 50% have already become active. I might be off on that percentage and will happily be corrected... but I am confident it lies between 25% and 50%.
I fully appreciate that you want to help your son prevent making an error and creating an unwanted/unplanned pregancy. I agree that you owe it to him and to the girl who may be there as well.. we ALL owe that to our children. Unfortunately, my experience, both in life and as a parent watching the raising of other children, that if there isn't open communication, the child gets curious and starts to play with things they don't understand. I personally would rather teach my children how to light a match... a candle.. or climb the stairs.. or swim in the water... than to hold them back and see them try it themselves, only to fall, burn, or drown.
You are entitled to set your rules and to raise your child as you see fit.. that is the truth with everyone.. but being open to discussion with your child doesn't mean you're bieng their friend. Set your boundaries, your rules and expectations, but please... be prepared to handle the situation if your son falls short of these expectations. I'm sure you will.. It's just that sometimes kids will pull away from their parents if they feel they are not fulfilling the expectations laid upon them.
And one more thing, that bridge WILL come one day... as much as you'd prefer it stayed away.. lol. I've had to cross it myself and the good news is that, because of our open communication and the fact that my daughter knows my love for her is 'unconditional' even when disappointed in her choices or behaviour, I was approached for advice, etc.. Had it been any other way, she would have pushed me away and sought guidance or knowledge from a stranger at best... and would have just made up her own mind without any input at worst.
I am not trying to preach to the choir with you either.. just hoping that you really open your mind to 'communication' with your son. And, well, reading parenting books doesn't make you any less of a person.. It's always interesting to learn how other people deal with various situations.. At least, it is in my opinion
Have a great day..
EDITED to add
..about your son and that 'possible' situation of him impregnating a girl while they are both young.. it is true that will miss out on many, many things. However, likewise true is the fact that he will have the opportunity to grow in so many, many ways.. ways that wouldn't be afforded him if he continued on in an 'unencumbered' life. I am in NO WAY suggesting teenage pregnancy is healthy or should be advocated.. but rather pointing out that while we so often attempt to protect our children we often forget that the sword is forged in fire... and that it is when we are most challenged that we often arise to grow stronger and show our greatness.
I sincerely hope that if a situation like that does occur, that you support him and encourage him to be the type of father to that child as you have been to him. Walking away would only leave a tarnish on his heart and soul.. especially if you're raising him with the values that you are claiming. But alas, it is just a hypothetical situation and HOPEFULLY one you'll never have to worry about!! | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 11:13:44 PM | It is precisely because you can only control what's happening under your roof that you should, carefully and under certain conditions, let it happen where you can control it.
If you want children to have sex so much, have your own children and make them do it. Have a camera if you want, too.
If your goal is to "reduce the risk" then it is the way to go. Threatening to kill her if she has sex, and refusing anything related to this in your home, may be the way to make YOU feel better, but it's definitely NOT going to reduce the risk, it will only INCREASE it.
And here we go again. So you, oh great childless sage of fatherhood can tell me what is the way to go? So I should dismiss all the opinions of actual mothers and fathers just to listen to you? But hey, you have read books! You know the truth!
No, I won't let my children have underage sex under my roof, and I will do my best to educate them not to have it elsewhere.
How will i do when I have spent all my money? Bah! Let's not make a budget,
Don't play stupid. The fact that you don't know exactly how will you handle a particular situation, because exact life circumstances cannot be predicted nor scheduled, doesn't mean you won't prepare for it.
If you'd really give your best to fulfill that responsability, rock_hunter, you would open up to the idea that you do not hold the only truth about children education, and hear it when people tell you important things about this.
I know I don't hold the truth. However, you don't. Because until now, your position is as inflexible as mine, with the difference that I only impose my views on myself instead of trying to convince others to try my theories on their children.
Besides, I'd say parents who have been successful in rearing children are more worthy of being listened to than some "I read books therefore I know the truth" teenage-sex obsessed childless guy.
However, the point is, your strict "dictator" and binary method will fail, as 99.9% of every dictatorial parent who end up with adolescent finds out sooner or later. Learn that now, read about it, change your ways, or it will happen to you too.
May I borrow your crystall ball? And since we're at that, your statistics charts, too? I also like to quote studies and statistics, but generally I don't pull them out of my ass. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 11:28:30 PM |
Unfortunately, my experience, both in life and as a parent watching the raising of other children, that if there isn't open communication, the child gets curious and starts to play with things they don't understand.
"Open communication" doesn't mean "give them a condom and hope for the best". To explain them the reality, to make them understand life, and convince them that they shouldn't risk having sex when they're not ready for it, is also open communication.
You are entitled to set your rules and to raise your child as you see fit.. that is the truth with everyone.. but being open to discussion with your child doesn't mean you're bieng their friend.
Being open to discussion is not synonymous with always telling them yes. To talk, discuss and explain why they can't/shouldn't do something, whether sex or anything else, is also being open. And friends can also say no, when it's for your own good.
You can be friends with your children. Moreover, you'd better be. However, you should never forget that you're a parent. And act as such. And if you have to choose between being a parent or being a friend, you should always choose being a parent. Because we may have many friends, but only one father and one mother. If you forget your parental role only to be a "friend", it may be a lot more comfortable for you, and your children may think you're "cool" and give you some heart warmth in the short term, but you're actually failing them. And when they grow up, they'll know it.
However, likewise true is the fact that he will have the opportunity to grow in so many, many ways.. ways that wouldn't be afforded him if he continued on in an 'unencumbered' life.
I'm sorry but I don't think so. I've seen too many teenagers being robbed of their lives just because of an unwanted pregnancy to accept that a few success stories can justify the bulk of misery that such a situation brings.
I sincerely hope that if a situation like that does occur, that you support him and encourage him to be the type of father to that child as you have been to him. Walking away would only leave a tarnish on his heart and soul.. especially if you're raising him with the values that you are claiming. But alas, it is just a hypothetical situation and HOPEFULLY one you'll never have to worry about!!
Haven't you read? There is a 99.9% chance of him becoming a teenage father if I don't let him have sex in my house. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 12:12:43 AM | You've taken my words and manipulated them to your own interpretations rock_hunter. PLEASE go back and find 'where' I said that open communication is equivalent to handing them a condom and saying go for it? DO NOT put words into my mouth or rather into my post. I wasn't deriding you or negating you.. just stating the fact that if you do NOT have open communication you're in for a world of trouble. Open communications, while also including why they should or should not do something, does not mean telling them what you think and ruling that you're right without an opportunity for them to express their own thoughts and views on the matter either -- which is an attitude that has seemed to generate or flow from your own words. That may not have been your intention, but it is exactly how it came across.
Likewise, I didn't say to allow him to get someone pregnant.. I was refering to your "comment" that you didn't know whether you would encourage him to stand up and be a father. That is once a PREGNANCY/child has already occurred. Hell of course you shouldn't encourage it.. nobody here is saying you should. HOWEVER, no matter how tough the situation is, IF it were to happen, then how could you actually even consider having him walk away, which is what it sounded like. Protect them yes, but to have them walk away?? Besides, given that you are correct and you can 'keep' him from having sex until he is out of the house, it really is a moot point, isn't it?
Don't see enemies or contradictions where there aren't any. And as pointed out before, if you're going to refer to something being said, you ought to make sure that you've taken the correct connotation from it. Misrepresenting what I said only makes you look bad.. and argumentative for the sake of being right and arguing. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 12:30:39 AM | You've taken my words and manipulated them to your own interpretations rock_hunter. PLEASE go back and find 'where' I said that open communication is equivalent to handing them a condom and saying go for it? DO NOT put words into my mouth or rather into my post.
I didn't mean it that way, sorry if that's how you understood it. I have stressed open communication several times in this thread, so you mentioning it again (and it came across as if you thought I wouldn't have it) looked like, if it doesn't end with a "yes, have sex", the communication is not "open". If that wasn't so, I apologyze.
then how could you actually even consider having him walk away, which is what it sounded like.
Where did that come from? Nowhere in my posts I've said that he should "walk away". He should assume his responsibility, even if only by paying child support. The thing is, he can avoid being burdened by this responsibility by not putting himself in the position of having it in the first place.
Likewise, I didn't say to allow him to get someone pregnant.
I didn't say you said it. But you said that if it happens, he will have "the opportunity to grow in so many, many ways.. ways that wouldn't be afforded him if he continued on in an 'unencumbered' life". That's what I disagree about. Remember, the bulk of teenage moms are single. Which means that for every success story where the kid "grew in so many ways" there are many more stories where he didn't. And from those kids who married the girl, how many of them actually "grew up in those many ways" and how many of them become just another dead-end job, dead-end marriage, dead-end life statistics? | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 12:51:43 AM |
I didn't mean it that way, sorry if that's how you understood it.
Apology accepted.
then how could you actually even consider having him walk away, which is what it sounded like. Where did that come from? Nowhere in my posts I've said that he should "walk away". He should assume his responsibility, even if only by paying child support. The thing is, he can avoid being burdened by this responsibility by not putting himself in the position of having it in the first place.
I had asked if you would encourage him to act as a father or just to provide child support. You had said you weren't certain, that he'd miss out on so many things. That uncertainty made it appear as though you would allow him to only provide CS and then live his life to his best. While I agree that CS is important, and that there are options where the child could be adopted, that in the case where the child is being kept, CS isn't the most important thing.
Likewise, my comment on him having the opportunity to grow dealt more along the lines that if the mistake occurs, then learning to accept responsibility and being an 'active father' in some way, shape, or form, as difficult as that may be, would provide him with the opportunity to grow. I didn't mean to say that teenage pregnancies are a great medium for a person to mature.
I think my biggest concern in this regard is that often I hear and see parents who want the best for their child/children... that's a given because we all do.. or should in any case. However, there are those who try to prevent their children from facing responsibilities.. as a means of protecting them.. and it usually ends badly. My brother has a friend whose father is a judge. They are in their mid-30's now, but this young man was caught drinking and driving on many different occasions, but the police failed to show up to court... the wrong papers were processed.. etc. Now, just recently, he actually returned back here, stepped out of the car, and took a swig of a beer bottle. He has never been made to account for his behaviour -- never had to live up to owning his errors and even now, when he should be a mature adult, he's still riding around half-baked and without any concern or caution because he just figures daddy will take care of it.
I am in no WAY implying that you would do the same. However, when it appeared to me that you would consider having him only contribute CS, it brought this and other examples to mind. Sometimes the hardest things we have to do create the greatest and strongest character from us.
And you're right, keeping teenage pregnancies from occuring in the first place should be of our utmost priority. When it does happen, it takes everyone, including the parents of both teens, to diminish the negative repercussions. Unfortunately, both sets of parents aren't willing to help out oft times! | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 3:53:57 AM | I half agree with Consious. However privacy is not a right, except in a certain place. The restroom only, and even that places privacy is over-ruled if I think she is hurt or in danger. A bedroom however can have a lock, as long as you have a way in. For instance a key. That way she/he can change without going to the bathroom everytime. Other than changing the door should never be locked. He/she is old enough to have privacy when they are old enough to pay rent in there own place.
As far as gay/lesbian goes. That isn't a predetermined thing, in my opinion. But I can support my opinion by fact. And fake case studies to try to prove there is no choice only get annoying. They are not done properly, then they just put it out there and say they did.
And the part I agree with, is that a child will find a way to do what they want, if they no nothing about it. It is up to parents, not schools to teach children about relationships, emotions, and sex. And you'll have to bring it up cause they're not gonna tell you first. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 4:03:12 AM | | Sorry about the post. It didn't show this as 3 pages on my comp. So I was responding to the first page only. Not done reading the other 2 yet. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 5:26:19 AM | Ok finally.
Rock_Hunter: Your mostly right. But you can't not communicate, until you get to the bridge. Underage sex is definately a no.
Veiled Inveigler: Your right. Consious is only right about 1 thing though not several.
Consious: The only thing you were right about is talking to your child. Other than that you have been reading too many books, coupled with bad parenting from your own. Giveing a 15yr a condom and a place to have sex is irresponsible. If you had children or knew anything about children you'd know that. And stop using big words to sound smarter, yes I agree you're intellegent, however because of your flagrant dissregard for etequiette, you sound like a ignoramus. See I can do it too. If you act like your talking about acting, when you have children, your going to be hurting when the time comes for real parenting. You never did answer the question. WHERE IS THE 15YR OLD GIRL YOU WERE WITH? When your young you don't fall in love. Love invoves a whole lot more than physical attraction. 1 major ingredient comes from experience. And that experience doesn't even come until you get past the sex for fun stage. You get crushes, and since they are new, and exciting you think it must be love. So, allowing a child to act on a crush and potentialy complicate his/her life, your life through their actions and your being an irresponsible parent, another persons life, their parents life, and the childs life, is just plain stupid. Your trying to make Rock_hunter sound like a hard liner with no room to budge, and from what I've seen he isn't. Who are you to ask any parent, "then who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready?" It's idiot like you who put my daughter in danger. You'd give your son a condom and let him have sex in your house, with my daughter. I tell you what would happen next, i'd break both your knee's when she told me. I do talk to my daughter and she would tell me. And BTW did your parents ever ask the girls parents if it was OK? Or did they not care as long as you were getting some? I'll bet they didn't to both answers.
You have no right whatsoever to make a judgement call on anyones parenting if your not a parent, you shouldn't even have posted on this page. People who are parents understand the realities that come with being a parent. All that stuff you said you'd do as a parent, will fly out the window when you really become one. Don't trust books, they will lead you astray. Books are good for advice only, you test and see what works, then keep the stuff that works and trash the rest. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 9:55:36 AM | Hey Nyemesis,
I'm glad that you too wish to protect your child, but as you said.. and they will do what they want.
In defense of ConsciousSoul you have no right to jump down his throat either. At no point did he ever say that allowing your children to sleep under your roof at '15 yrs' is what he is advocating. He is advocating tolerance and communication. While I personally couldn't see myself allowing children to have sex under my roof with my knowledge and permission, he is stating that it may be safer to have it occur as such, rather than have them sneak around.. and you know what, they will.
As for commenting on his parents 'parenting' style.. isn't that just as ignorant as what you have accused him of being? Again, you said not to judge parenting unless you're a parent. His parents have already raised their children, and from what I can tell, he is a deep thinker. We may not agree with various parenting ideas that he, or others, may have but that doesn't mean that we are necessarily correct and everyone else wrong either. Perhaps if his parents hadn't allowed him the safety of his privacy and the ofference of condoms he and his girlfriend at the time might have snuck outside and done it.. Perhaps they would have done so without any condoms.. and she could have become pregnant. None of us can or will know the ramifications.
On another point, however.. my father, as strict as he was and as much as I was raised to 'wait' (mostly by my mother).. attempted to put me on birth control pills as soon as I reached 14 yrs of age. I literally had to 'fight' with him NOT to be put on it, because he came from a small area and knew of many young girls whose lives had been thrown away by becoming pregnant. He told me I was too smart and had too much to offer to allow the 'heat of the moment' to ruin my life. Thankfully we came to a compromise that should I ever get involved with someone and feel the urge to explore my sexuality that I would either come to them or go to a health clinic and obtain birth control. At the time STI's weren't as documented or a concern as they are now. In any case, even teenagers know what is right or wrong for them... if you have allowed them the freedom to think for themselves and the ability to trust their own judgment.
I think the bottom line is that we all agree to the same thing on here. Some of us are just promoting the idea that you can't 'control' them completely.. so empower them. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2008 10:23:31 AM | Hello Nyemesis,
I think you are reading rock_hunter's responses to me and that you didn't realize he was inventing thing I never said. (For instance, I never said a parent should have no control over underage sex - only that, since it is not something you can prevent, you 'd better communicate, educate, and let happen when your daughter is ready, in a safe, protected environment, rather than let her sneak out on her own and do it anyway in an unsafe environment). Let me go through your post so that things could get clarified:
The only thing you were right about is talking to your child.
Since this is my very main point, I am happy we agree on it.
Other than that you have been reading too many books, coupled with bad parenting from your own. Giving a 15yr a condom and a place to have sex is irresponsible.
First, I believe you should start by reading these books I am talking about before you judge their content. I am referring, in this case, to Thomas Gordon's workshops, which helped millions of parents in 30 different languages across the globe. You can agree or disagree with it, but the least you could do is to learn about it before you judge it.
Second, you are trivializing what happened with my own parent when I was 15 years old. My parents realized that, as I was getting into adolescence, they couldn't control my every move, and of course, they were concerned with my safety, aids, STD, and pregnancy. They were intelligent enough to realize that simply "forbidding" me to have sex simply would not have worked. They also had the intelligence to know that, for a 15 years old, buying condom can be embarrassing. They thought they'd rather have their son protected than not, and that i'd be wise enough - knowing me through all these years and having educated me the proper way - that i wouldn't have sex until I was ready anyway - but that they had no way of knowing for sure when that would happen nor any power to prevent it - so they gave me a condom box, gave me the whole speech about the dangers and responsibilities of sex, and trusted my with it. I didn't have a girlfriend when they gave the condom box to me. They didn't think I had one either. They only wanted to make sure, should it happen, that i'd be protected. They didn't "provide a place to have sex", and they didn't forbid me to it. They simply didn't even mention the house as a possible place I could have sex, and frankly, I was shy and embarrassed enough of this conversation as it was, it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to have sex at home anyway.
You never did answer the question. WHERE IS THE 15YR OLD GIRL YOU WERE WITH?
No need to shout. The reason I didn't answer rock_hunter is that, when people insult me, I don't see why I would answer them, especially when it is irrelevant to the whole discussion. Now, because you are writing to me for the first time, I'll assume you didn't mean to insult or shout, and I'll answer this. As explained above, i didn't have a girlfriend at 15. My first GF i had after 18, and this was NOT because of anything my parent ever forbid me. THEN, as I was 20, yet still at my parent's home, I spent 2 years living with that first girlfriend (and obviously having a normal sex and love life) under my parent's roof. But all this is irrelevant, because the point is that parents should realize they cannot control underage sex, and the best way to help your child is to help them develop their self discipline, which doesn't work on arbitrary rules.
When your young you don't fall in love. Love involves a whole lot more than physical attraction. 1 major ingredient comes from experience. And that experience doesn't even come until you get past the sex for fun stage.
With that attitude, you'll lose all communication with your adolescents if you ever have some. You should respect your child's emotions and feelings. If they feel they are in love, then they need to live this fully, because the only way they can realize that it was only a crush and not love is through experience, and you are denying them this. You can help them by being a guide; but telling them they aren't in love when they are, because "you know better" will only shut you down for your kid's trust and communication.
It's idiot like you who put my daughter in danger. You'd give your son a condom and let him have sex in your house, with my daughter.
Oh? And what would you do if my son would do exactly the same, at the back of a friend car, with booze and drugs, not using a condom? How would that be any better? If an adolescent decides to have sex with someone, there is NOTHING you can do as a parent: you won't even KNOW it. It's only because you actually had these conversations with them, that you can at least make them feel like it is an important decision that you respect, and help them NOT do it until they are truly ready. How many kids will rush to do forbidden things, against their parent's will, BECAUSE they are in rebellious mode? How do you propose to stop it - tie them to their chair the whole day, perhaps?
My parents gave me a condom box at 15, knowing i'd never actually have sex until i was ready, and knowing it would probably be a long time before i'd be ready, but not wanting to take chances that i'd be without protection whenever I'd be ready. I hope for your daughter whoever have sex with her have protection. Are you aware that today, the average kid has sex for the first time at 12 years old? Yes, it disgust me as well as you. But it's happening, and their is nothing you can do about it. How do I know? One of my friend is a specialized social worker for children adn adolescents, she is on the field, actually helping 12-17 years old adolescents every day. I am not pulling these statistics out of my ass.
I tell you what would happen next, i'd break both your knee's when she told me.
Make another comment like this, and I write to POF to have your account deactivated for threats and violence. Is that crystal clear? Violence, wether it is verbal, written, or physical, is NEVER acceptable and I have ZERO tolerance for it, just as you should never tolerate it in kid's behavior.
You have no right whatsoever to make a judgement call on anyones parenting if your not a parent, you shouldn't even have posted on this page. People who are parents understand the realities that come with being a parent.
That's bullshit. First, I was a child and had parents, just like anyone else. Second, I deal with children all the time, and have interacted with many more than you obviously have.
Third, children are the futur adults and citizen that will form tomorrow's society, so I damn have a right to say something about how they are educated and what kind of society it will do in the future. And Fourth, you are the living proof, with rock_hunter, than having a child definitely doesn't make you any wiser about children education.
Books to not replace experience. But experience doesn't replace knowledge.
You certainly can't become a great psychologist by only speaking to people, you need the studies. What makes you believe you can suddenly become a great parent just by parenting? | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 10:55:24 AM | For instance, I never said a parent should have no control over underage sex
"who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready? it is her sex life, not yours."
"because the point is that parents should realize they cannot control underage sex"
That's bullshit. First, I was a child and had parents, just like anyone else. Second, I deal with children all the time, and have interacted with many more than you obviously have.
Do the parents of these children know that you condone them having sex even against their parent's wishes? Do they know that you consciously undermine their authority before their children? Do they know your views on underage sex?
Would you let those parents read your posts here?
you are the living proof, with rock_hunter, than having a child definitely doesn't make you any wiser about children education.
And you're the living proof of the bad consequences an all-too-permissive parental attitude can bring.
Are you aware that today, the average kid has sex for the first time at 12 years old?
"I" am aware of it. How many of those occur because the parents follow the "enlightened" advice of those books about parenting you have in such high regards? How many of those are because the child is coddled and mis-educated to believe that if s/he wants something, s/he must have it and damn what their parents think?
If something, those facts highlight the FAILURE of the all-permissive, don't-hurt-the-kid's-ego parenting style you are so fond of.
What makes you believe you can suddenly become a great parent just by parenting?
What makes you believe you can be a great parent WITHOUT parenting?
Frankly, I don't know if you're trolling, or you're actually serious about the BS you're writing.
Go back to your books, and preferably stay there. Children will be safer that way. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:04:44 AM | to rock_hunter:
Third rule of debate: The truth is never rude. If you can't stand opposing views, nor formulate clearly your question, you shouldn't be debating.
Now please grow up and attack the ideas, not the person.
If you want children to have sex so much, have your own children and make them do it. Have a camera if you want, too.
This comment is not only insulting, it is purposely comparing me to a sex offender.
So this is beyond rude, and a direct attack on the person, not the ideas.
Another fine example of double standards from you.
If I were you, I'd re-read what you just wrote about kids, sex and camera, and reflect upon the implication. And I would retract this quickly.
Besides, as I stated multiple times before, I am not advocating to have under-age adolescent have sex; I am advocating that you cannot prevent them to do so behind you back. You are again putting things into my mouth I never said.
I know I don't hold the truth. However, you don't. Because until now, your position is as inflexible as mine, with the difference that I only impose my views on myself instead of trying to convince others to try my theories on their children.
First, i don't impose anything. This is a parenting forum, and people are certainly free to read or not what people write, to take it or leave it, and that is far from any imposing or forcing.
Second, my position stands behind a large array of possible behaviors. I spoke about the importance of communication, about mutual respect, and listening, about the careful evaluation of your child readiness, about the parent's limited power to prevent things from happening and ways to handle it so that, when it happens, at least, the child is both protected and guided, rather than on it's own. So, my views aren't inflexible: they encompass a large spectrum of possibilities, pointing out that strict, dictatorial "enforcement" will only lead you nowhere but with a non-communicating, rebellious adolescent. On your end, you are unable to accept even one single shade of gray of anything I am saying. That it is your loss, I really don't care. But it will also be your son's loss, and that is quite sad.
Besides, I'd say parents who have been successful in rearing children are more worthy of being listened to than some "I read books therefore I know the truth" teenage-sex obsessed childless guy.
Then perhaps you should hear what Veiled Inveigler has to say?
I read books, therefore, I know some things you obviously don't. It's not the whole truth, but it's a lot better than nothing. Besides, it's not about what I know or don't know, it's about what the author know or didn't know. So, until you read it, you really can't comment on it.
Oh, and the "teenage-sex obsessed" is, yet again, your binary mind kicking in and assaulting the writer, rather than the ideas.
I also like to quote studies and statistics, but generally I don't pull them out of my ass.
I didn't pull that out of nowhere. This "adolescent crisis" you have heard all around does not exist for teenagers who were raised according to communication and mutual respect principles. Why do you think so many parent loose all communication with their teenagers? I took these statistics from my friend's studies and experience as a social worker specialized in child and adolescent's interventions. And she has a LOT more experience that you will ever have. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:08:18 AM | This comment is not only insulting, it is purposely comparing me to a sex offender.
Why? After all, if a child wants to have sex, we have no right to prevent it. And therefore, we have no right to tell him/her "who" have sex with, either.
Again, would you let the parents of those children you work with read your posts in this thread?
If one of them came to see you to discuss about their child, would you tell him: "who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready? it is her sex life, not yours." | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:12:53 AM |
Would you let those parents read your posts here?
Yes, of course. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:21:34 AM |
Why? After all, if a child wants to have sex, we have no right to prevent it.
It depends if you are talking about children or adolescent. between 14-18 approximately, it's a whole different situation. They are in transition between childhood and adulthood, and their sexuality is their own. You can evaluate if they feel they are ready or not, and you can evaluate if they realize the importance of protection, the absence of peer pressure, and so on, and you can help them realize it if you feel they aren't ready yet, if you are truly listening and your guidance isn't arbitrary; but you can't prevent anything with certainty.
If one of them came to see you to discuss about their child, would you tell him: "who the hell are you, even as a parent, to decide she is or isn't ready? it is her sex life, not yours."
Certainly. Sometimes, parents must hear the hard truth: there comes a time, when your child is no longer a child, (and no, that's not something determined by law - some may not be at 25 and some may be already at 16) that a parent has to realize he can only have a role of guidance, but that life is no longer yours to command. You can help, not dictate anymore. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:30:28 AM | I have no kids, thank God.
But if I had, I would be in favor of strict boundaries, at least till the kid has demonstrated decent critical thinking skills. That usually happens when they are not kids anymore. Yes, I would see a problem if my kid hanged around lesbians or gays when he/she does not have a well developed mind. Those kind of choices belong to the years of maturity, not to teenage years. Even if it was only for discovery purposes, I would likely discourage it. I am in favor of loving discipline and respect of societal rules. I would not want a kid of mine to grow up eccentric as I did: it makes like very difficult.
I have grown to love structure and traditions ( too late, unfortunately!) At times I resent my parents for having allowed too much freedom when I was not ready for it. It's like treating a child like an adult: Not very wise. To this day I have a problem setting healthy boundaries.
You can help, not dictate anymore . I disagree: you dictate till the kid has demonstrated he/she is able to make reasoned choices. This means helping and directing properly, In my opinion. Sometimes adults can take risks in order to see if the kid is able to manage it, but they have to be careful in assessing where the fine line is. Always better to err on the side of caution, especially in relations to sex, health, and what could become an unhealthy habit. To help a child develop wise habits is a sign of wisdom. You don't give too many choices to somebody unable to manage them. Now, some adults are less wise than their children....but that is a different story. A 16 yo kid is still a kid: it hasn't developed ethical boundaries yet. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 1:44:51 PM |
. Now, some adults are less wise than their children....but that is a different story. A 16 yo kid is still a kid: it hasn't developed ethical boundaries yet.
You aren't serious with this, are you? *raised eyebrows*.. Perhaps SOME 16 yr olds haven't developed 'ethical boundaries'... but many have. This comes from my own life experience, from that of my siblings, and also from that of my children's lives.
Right now, my son is only TURNING 16 yrs old and he is more mature and ethical in ways that exceed the average adult. I KNOW this because I talk to him.. I'm INVOLVED in his life.. I KNOW who he is with and what he is doing. I have interacted with him while he interacts with his friends.. I have watched from the sideline as he has interacted with others. Please do NOT put your limitations on my son or other teenagers. That is a huge problem that teens suffer from anyway each and every day... often being considered "troubled teens"... "confused teens"... "immature people who think they know everything"..
Fair enough, some aren't mature and THEY DO need more guidance and restrictions. However, there ARE those who know exactly what they are or aren't ready for and adults who diminish this are diminishing them as people. My son only had his first kiss a couple of months ago, and in spite of there being MANY girls who have decided they like him now that he's into 'football' and getting 'cut' physically.. he still will not just go out on a date, or get involved with just ANYONE. He turns 16 yrs in about two weeks and has told me that he doesn't care what a girl wants to do... if he doesn't feel right or isn't ready to hold hands, kiss, etc.. then he will NOT do it. He has also explained the differences to me between why he likes one girl opposed to another -- and you know what that is???? It is her intelligence... not 'book smarts' per se... but on a deeper level. Of course he likes the girls with the nice bodies .. the real cuties.. but he has no desire to just go jump them and explore. HE is a HELL of a lot more mature than half the men here on POF!! And that is just my son... that doesn't even begin to cover my daughter.. but she's 18 1/2 now and is 'classified' as an adult.
Yes, PROTECT your children.. yes SET GUIDELINES... and rules.. You yourself have said that you felt you were given a free reign. Children and teenagers do not THRIVE in an environment that does not HAVE BOUNDARIES. They are necessary. But whatever you do, do not 'lump' them into some kind of category and say 'better to be safe than sorry'. Better to be knowledgeable and in communications with them.
As for the 12 yr olds out there having sex.. I'll let you know something. Early onset sexual interaction is one indication that a child has been abused or is from an abusive/dysfunctional home. MOST kids who are raised to respect themselves and others in a healthy, functional environment do not feel the need to become sexual at such a young age. They are taught and are ready to hear about the responsibilities and the importance of it. They are open to discussions as well. It is the children who have come from dictatorial families.. who have not enjoyed the opportunity to learn who they are and to believe in themselves who search out sexual liasons with others...
And, for those who are giving ConsciousSoul such a difficult time about wanting to prepare our children.. there was a news story within the last couple of months where it was claimed that young girls were making a 'pact' to get pregnant. The number of pregnancies skyrocketed within this one particular community and school. A few days or a couple of weeks later one young girl who was pregnant came forth and spoke up. She said she didn't know if others had made a pact or not... but that wasn't what happened in her situation. INSTEAD, what happened was that this PARTICULAR school decided to REMOVE the easy access to condoms that was available within the guidance and health areas of the school. This Catholic school wanted to remove them because they thought having them there PROMOTED sexuality in the teens and they believed that by removing them from access they would remove the 'temptation' the kids were under and stop them (aka control them) from becoming sexually involved. It was such a big deal that the school nurse and physician RESIGNED over this decision because they needed to make their own point that this was only a disaster waiting to happen. And you know what... it was. Instead of 'controlling' the teens and keeping them 'restricted' what they did was stop them from having access to protection. Now, not only could some of these youngsters have managed to come in contact with or transmitted STI's.. but many ended up pregnant. One reporter asked "Well, why didn't you go to the drugstore and purchase them?"... and the young girl and her boyfriend looked at each other and replied that their community is very small and it is very embarrassing, for teenagers in particular, to buy them... especially when their neighbours can identify them... and tell their parents.
So?.. what is better?.. prepare your child and hope that the communication and guidance (boundaries/guidelines) you've set deters them until they are ready, or to pull away from it altogether and hope it just goes away? I know where I stand and how I've handled it... and for me, it's been working out wonderfully. | |
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