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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 3:13:38 PM | Message 75:
It takes more than 16 years of age to make a person experienced, self aware and with good judgment.
There are exceptions to the rules, of course, but a teenager does not have enough life experience and discrimination to make choices on the ethical level (and when I talk about ethics, I am not referring to what is legal and what isn't....so to speak) He might distinguish what is right from what is wrong, according to common standard of behaviors, but is he really able to discriminate between what is wholesome ( = conducive to own's own good) and what is not, at that age? Teenagers have not yet developed a sense of principles and conduct of behavior that is their own ( unconditioned by the environment they live in). At that age they usually have a 'common sense' ethics, they don't understand what it means to make choices in line with your one's own beliefs and principles: this kind of consciousness is developed later in life. As teenagers, they don't have enough knowledge of the world.
This has nothing to do with protective sexual measures. It has to do with sexual inclination, and, possibly, with the desire to experiment with what is out of the norm. Now, this whole thread was based on the assumption that the kid in question is lesbian or gay. How do they know that at 16 years old? I am of the opinion that sexual inclination is a choice, not something people get born with. Therefore in order to say "I am lesbian" one should have tried both. I doubt at 16 yo one has that kind of knowledge and life experience. It would be very dangerous if he had it. They are allowed a certain innocence at that age, which is a good thing. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 3:26:33 PM | Veiled Invleiger
In your post, you extol the maturity of your 16-years old son. But in the same post, you give a blatant example of the immaturity of several other young teenagers.
Perhaps your son is an exception instead of a rule, and guidelines are not meant for exceptions.
Tell me: Which of these had the worse consequences: A bit of a bruised ego (in the case of a very mature kid being seen as immature by his parents) or teenage pregnancy, possible abortions and/or single motherhood (in the case of those immature kids who weren't taught that certain actions have consequences).
Nobody says our children shouldn't be "prepared". But how can you "prepare" somebody if the authority to do it is DENIED ("who the hell are you")?
Also, nobody is proposing to close the eyes and hope it will go away. To talk, convince, explain, etc. about the need to delay sex until they're mature enough (in all aspects, not only emotionally) to face ALL the possible consequences of it is not "closing your eyes". Conversely, to FACILITATE their access to sex (as in, a parent giving them a room in the house to do the deed), that can be fairly called "closing the eyes" to all possible consequences.
If a kid is mature enough to have sex, he's mature enough to understand that sex should be delayed until you can cope with the worst-case scenario. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 5:50:22 AM | CounsiousSoul
First of, stop being dense. If you read the whole thing I wrote I am not threatening your dumb ass. If any parent, gives there son a condom and a place have sex with my daughter. I WILL do something about it. I just used you as an example, but you already know that. You can stop trying to play games with me, I can call you on all of em. Ironic that you would threaten me, for threatening you though. And your a crybaby, violence blah, blah, blah. TEAR. So if you must, go tell the forum parents I'm picking on you.
(I had parents that were intelligent enough to buy me condoms when I was 15 years old, as they gave me a speech about protecting myself. I had my girl friend living with me and sleeping in the same bed under my parent's roof for 2 years before I left home with her, when I was young. )
This statement right here, came from you, not Rock_Hunter. I no way does it suggest you weren't having sex till 18. When you were asked about the 15yr, you made no correction. So, any wrong assumptions come from your lack of correcting. Not me, or Rock_Hunter making it up.
I have no problem with your main point being talk to your children. I would guess, neither does Rock_Hunter, or Veiled_Veigler. However, I have a problem with all your other points. I also guarentee, that if you showed the posts to the parents of the children. You wouldn't have a job anymore.
I know caps means shout, I don't know how to Itallicize, and your wrong I meant very much to insult you. You are the one who started insulting people, Who the hell are you. Is insulting to exeryone.
You have no, remote clue about how many children I've raised. An educational environment, is not even comparible to doing a parents job. Not even a little bit. Books like I said are only good for advice at best. You are trying to use them as law. How black and white is that? Your even going so far as it imply that the book is right, and the parent is wrong. That the reason I keep saying your an idiot. Relyiing on a book will lead you down the wrong path. Book are writtne by people that haven't been there. -This is written by mothers for mothers- No it's written by a writer. Rich people, edit it, rich people market it, rich people put ideas into it, and then rich people pay a nanny to watch their children 24/7. That is why book can't be used as training, only for advice. And yes you were a kid with parents, you were however not a parent with kids. That's the point. And I read your profile again, what experience do you have? Your a software consult. Watching children at the play ground?
(Books to not replace experience. But experience doesn't replace knowledge.)
That's just another fine example of idiocy. EXPERIENCE MAKES KNOWELGE.`So it replaces knowledge all the time, with new knowledge. The is no knowledge without experience.
Now, that I think about it more. Your an adult, advocating sexual freedom for children 14-18. Who claim he works with children, as a software consultant? Has no girlfriend. And in your profile, basically says you wouldn't want a girl who wanted just sex. Or did you mean a girl your own age? Could it be that, your not agrueing the point for the benefit of children, which you clearly in my opinion are not anyway, but so you can ease your own CONSIOUS of the thought, and maybe even action, that you yourself are thinking about doing?
And lastly, You said you were resposible enough at 15. You and your parents couldn't "Known" that you wouldn't do it at 15. BTW you used wise. Wisdom comes from experience and knowledge, you weren't wise enough not to have sex, you didn't have the opportunity till you were 18. You just assume you wouldn't have gotten a girl pregnant, just as I can assume that you would have done it, and gotten a girl pregnant. At fifteen if a girl had been all over you trying to get in your pants, you would have thrown that wisdom out the window, and maybe used a condom. But since you never got a chance to experience that you have no knowledge of what you would have done.
As a matter fact, you might have been smart enough to realize (if your parent hadn't set you up for failure) that because you don't have a comdom you shouldn't have sex.
If you really got all the knowledge from your parents. Your basing, a lot of your agruements on facts that you are creating. A big one is you at 15yr being resposible enough about sex, but you wouldn't know, you never had the opportunity. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:56:44 AM | Veiled Inveiger
Yes, he actaully argued with Rock_Hunter, or Rock_Hard if you perfer, about having underage children in him home having sex. He did make a valid point about the change to 18yr, however Rock_Hunter also made a valid contradiction to the point. Just because you snuck around behind your parents back, after you refused birth control ,doesn't mean all children will. Your parent offered you birth control, and then you say that you were under very strict parents. Hmm? You refused the brith control, yet you try to blame your parents for the sneaking around. That was all you, and your excuse is if you had asked, they would have said no. And that is why you had to sneak around, and have sex. It's all your parents fault right? Or maybe you just weren't mature enough to make the right decision. Weird how that keeps comming up.
(Thankfully we came to a compromise that should I ever get involved with someone and feel the urge to explore my sexuality that I would either come to them or go to a health clinic and obtain birth control.)
No you wouldn't, because you didn't. As proven right here. Yes you were 18, but you can't in one breath say they tried to protect you, and let you refuse. Then say they were so strict you had to run off with a 37yr, and it was their fault you were too immature to make the right decision.
(It was done to me and it had a very negative effect. Instead of developing a loving relationship with someone I knew, someone my age, I ended up getting involved with the first 'man' who knew how to take what he wanted.. .and he happened to be 37 yrs of age as opposed to my 18 yrs at the time.)
Yes he's a deep thinker alright, who has no experience in the points he tries to make. You can't make a point that giving him condoms at 15 was a good or bad idea. He didn't even have an option of using as more than a baloon till he was 18. We all made it a big part of the discussion, and in reality it never ever happened. We may not agree on his parenting ideas? He doesn't have any, he's trying to quote a book. In order to have real parenting ideas, he needs to be a parent. So he can talk about an idea he used, not he's guessing will work cause a book said so.
I can make judgement on another parents "parenting style", because my judgement is based on my experience. I have raised several kids from babies, teenagers, and every age inbetween. I have a lot of experience in it. No i'm not the perfect parent. There is no such thing. But because of the experience, I am damn good at parenting. I don't make rookie mistakes with my daughter. I'm not going to sit here and let someone who knows nothing about children, not you obviously, talk to parents and give bad advice about parenting to people. Then have the nerve to imply that the parent is bad at it. When he has no kids, and doesn't know anything at all about parenting.
Conscious's main idea is true. Communication is the key. But all that other rubbish he's been spewing is backed up by lies, and interpretation. Yes there were assumptions made that were false, but because he decided not to clarify them. Noone could have known. You can't discuss a point, if all you are giving is false fact, and what you assume you would do in a situation you have no experience in.
As for Rock_Hunter, yes he maybe a bit over protective, but over protective is way beter than underprotective. He'll make mistakes and learn from em. He has the opportunity to do that. If he has a question, he can ask, or read a book. There are ways, for him to change any bad to good. He's a parent he has to test ideas against his child, and use the best one that works for him. He sure as hell doesn't need, advice from someone who only knows theory and has no experience in practice.
I'm not getting down on you. You sound like an excellent mom, for the most part. You sound like you've made mistakes and dealt with them. However, you also sound like your bitter at your parents, and the only reason is your own fault, not theirs. Since, I don't know the whole story. There's no way to know.
I tend to agree with most of what you say, out of the three, i'd say your the most rounded. I just think you lean toward being too nice, when I lean more toward being too hard. Then again, I talk to my daughter all the time about everything, and give her hugs and kisses more than discipline. That's is only cause when she was younger, I set the groundwork for that. My daughter is great. She tells me everything. She is only 11, but I've already had to deal with all the stuff that comes next for her. With both boys and girls, not the girls as much though, I hadn't make the real parent get off her ass and do something. Plus, I have people I can ask if a situation arises I haven't seen before, people whose opinion I can trust as a parent. Not someone who read a book and wants to give me advice. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 7:19:56 AM | As an after thought.
When you start thinking your kids are going to to do whatever they want no matter what you say. YOU have given up on them. You can't say there's nothing I can do as a parent. There are several things I can do as a parent. You can't know what they are doing all the time true, but you can know what they are doing most of the time. And you can teach them to do the right things in during the time you don't know. Children don't have rights or freedoms automatically. Except right that all human, and animals have. The right not to be abuse or neglected. Everything else is a privilege, not a right. The privileges they get are the parents right to determine. If you start letting children have too many privilege, before they are ready. As all children do they will test the limit. If your such a wuss that everytime the test you, you back down. Then they will grow up thinking they can do whatever the F*** they want. You make the rules, and you need to enforce them too. Because when you don't, when they grow to adult they will think the same about societies rules. If your kids are doing whatever they want no matter what you say, then you did that to them. I personally think that is abuse, and if they don't want to talk to you about issues they have becasue they are ashamed, or scared. Then I beleive that is neglect. Yeah they didn't come to you, but you never went to them either. They don't trust that you will try to help them. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 11:47:07 AM |
Yes, he actaully argued with Rock_Hunter, or Rock_Hard if you perfer So the first thing you start off with is an insult ... so to speak.. because I made ONE error in writing out a persons name..??? It was no freudian slip.. at least not a sexual one... which is why when I responded I said I didn't know if it was a good slip. Had more to do with someone heaving a rock-hard head... However, to be fair to rock_hunter, since talking with him.. he's not as "hard-headed" as originally thought.
Just because you snuck around behind your parents back, after you refused birth control ,doesn't mean all children will
AND where do you premise this accusation from??? hmm.. WHERE did I ever say I 'snuck' around. Again, just shows ignorance coming from you.
Your parent offered you birth control, and then you say that you were under very strict parents. Hmm? You refused the brith control, yet you try to blame your parents for the sneaking around. That was all you, and your excuse is if you had asked, they would have said no. And that is why you had to sneak around, and have sex. It's all your parents fault right? Or maybe you just weren't mature enough to make the right decision. Weird how that keeps comming up.
Let me reiterate.. my parents hadn't 'offered' me birth control.. I had to fight my father NOT to go on it, because of things he saw in his small town. So, if I tell my kids that they can't go out in the boat... yet make sure that there are life jackets available.. I'm what.. a permissive parent? No I'm a wise parent who realizes that the possibility exists that they might sneak out.. as children do. Go ahead and preach and don't provide any 'life jackets' to your kids... but don't go crying when they end up hurt either. My parents WERE strict and I don't need to even touch your comment.. it's not even a question.. it's a reality.
A s for my 'blaming' them.. no I didn't blame them per se. I said that the type dictatorial type of parenting can end up badly.. .and it did. While the 'offer' of condoms were there, the freedom to grow up and go out with young men or get to know them in a healthy environment was not present. Had I been able to GROW from EXPERIENCING relationships prior to reaching the 'freedom of adulthood'.. which is basically what it was.. once I turned 18 yrs I could do what I wanted.. then my choices would have been different. My maturity wasn't in question.. my experience was. Those are two different things entirely...
No you wouldn't, because you didn't. As proven right here. Yes you were 18, but you can't in one breath say they tried to protect you, and let you refuse. Then say they were so strict you had to run off with a 37yr, and it was their fault you were too immature to make the right decision.
First - WHENEVER did I say that (a) I didn't use protection? or (b) ran away with a 37 yrs old.
Your IGNORANCE is again shining through with everything you are writing. You are making ASSumptions of things that didn't occur. You are taking different posts and "filling them in with your own innuendo's and ideas". Quite a FANCIFUL imagination you have there... I have to say. My FATHER tried to PUT ME onto birth control when I was "14 yrs" old... and I refused. I WASN'T ready.. which just goes to show the maturity and intelligence teenagers can have about themselves and their own bodies... lives. I was first active with my ex-HUSBAND - oh yes, I married him -- when I was "18 yrs" old.. HOWEVER, I DID make sure we used protection... and my parents DID know about it.. and I DID NOT "run off" with anybody. .. Another figment of your imagination!
BTW, that's at least the second or third time you've called or implied that I'm immature. At no point have I ever made an attack at "you" personally... I do believe the only "immaturity" being shown here is thine own..
You can't make a point that giving him condoms at 15 was a good or bad idea. He didn't even have an option of using as more than a baloon till he was 18.
Again, another ASSumption on your part. Who said that he didn't have the 'option of using it' until he was 18 yrs old. I don't remember reading that. I DO remember him saying he DIDN'T use it until then... but that doesn't mean that there weren't girls who would have been willing. AND YES, I can say that for myself... I KNOW there were options between the ages of 14 ys and 18 yrs of having sexual intimacy. Just because I chose not to, doesn't mean I didn't. OH wait, and before you 'hammer on' and say, how can I say I wasn't allowed the freedom of exploring a relationship and yet I could have had sex.. Well let's see.. I wasn't allowed to date or to develop a relationship.. have a boyfriend.. but I was allowed to go visit girlfriends and spend the night sometimes. Of coure, they didn't live in a nunnery, hence when we were our walking, going to see a movie, going to the beach, there were always young men around.. and so yes, opportunitities always arose.
I can make judgement on another parents "parenting style", because my judgement is based on my experience. I have raised several kids from babies, teenagers, and every age inbetween. I have a lot of experience in it.
Hmmm... you know what.. my friend is dating this man.. heaven help her. He has seven brothers... they were all raised together.. by their parents. He is a mean abusive s.o.b... and has been in jail a few times. One of the other brothers is gone back to prison for life... and of course, one just managed to keep clean after he was released.. while the fourth brother is smacked out on cocaine and other drugs. That's only the four of the seven, I didn't want to know more. THEY were parented... and I'm sure their parents think they have experience as well.. doesn't mean that they are right or have 'more to say' than someone else who has studied human behaviour. God help us all if you're implying that the only people who know are the people who do.. That's just silly ignorance again.
YES I agree totally that experience counts for a LOT.. but it doesn't count for everything. I don't need to be a fireman to know that it is a dangerous job... I don't need to be a cop to develop ideas about the stress and difficulties that pervades it.. and I don't need to be a doctor to wonder how they manage to 'isolate' their emotions when dealing with sickness and death all the time. If I read up on it, if I talk to them about it, I will learn more.. Of course I will NEVER KNOW what it is exactly like, but I can garner some insight. So while you are correct that being a parent and actually parenting gives a person a hell of a lot of insight, it doesn't mean that every parents opinion outweighs someone who doesn't have kids.. My family doctor has no kids himself.. and I just smile at him while he talks to me of parenting styles and having open communication.. because I do. However, I also know that he offers this advice because he knows of so many parents who do not... and through HIS EXPERIENCE working with hundreds of patients and kids/teenagers.. he's garnered insight on the various issues.
I'm not getting down on you.
Ummm... yeah, you were getting down on me.. lol.. Personally too..
You sound like an excellent mom, for the most part. You sound like you've made mistakes and dealt with them.
Thank you.. I am an excellent mom... and we ALL make mistakes. Anyone who claims they've been a perfect parent is either lying to themselves or needs a reality check. However, I'm not sure which mistakes you are referring to at the moment...
However, you also sound like your bitter at your parents, and the only reason is your own fault, not theirs.
WHERE on earth does this come from?? lmfao.. Nope... no bitterness nor is there anywhere you can say that I am bitter. Stating a reality does not mean that someone is bitter. If I went on and on about how horrible they were... what terrible parents they made... etc.. then yes, perhaps you could make such an ASSumption.. but not in this case. Nice try though.
Since, I don't know the whole story. There's no way to know.
Say WHAT??... maybe you should have started your reply off with that exact statement.. and ran it from there. "I don't know the whole story. There's no way to know".
I tend to agree with most of what you say, out of the three, i'd say your the most rounded. I just think you lean toward being too nice, when I lean more toward being too hard
Hmm... I'd hate to see your reply if you disagreed with me... lol. For the record, I don't lean toward being 'too nice' or 'too hard'. I think a healthy middle field... where there is "FAIRNESS" is what I go after. There are times I have been too nice... and times I have been too hard.. but overall they balance out and as a parent for many years I've grown to the point where I have learned the differences and tend to find the centre..
The great thing is that when I'm too nice or too hard and have to rebalance myself.. I take the opportunity to share with my kids why the change in my actions/reactions. It gives them insight on where I'm coming from... allows them to know why I'm concerned.. and teaches them that nobody is perfect. Which is a very important lesson for all.
I will end this saying I can only assume you decided to 'attack' me because I stood up for ConsciousSoul.. and spoke against what you said. You came at me 'hard'... and then decided to what?.. lighten it up at the end? You are entitled to raise your children anyway you see fit.. and from a lot of what you said I think you know that I'm not pushing any 'underage' sex ideas out into the main stream of thinking. My only suggestion to you is that next time before you jump at someone.. make sure you actually read what has been said and not fill in blanks with stuff that hasn't been said or doesn't exist. It really doesn't wear well on you. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 11:56:22 AM |
As an after thought.
When you start thinking your kids are going to to do whatever they want no matter what you say. YOU have given up on them. You can't say there's nothing I can do as a parent. There are several things I can do as a parent. You can't know what they are doing all the time true, but you can know what they are doing most of the time. And you can teach them to do the right things in during the time you don't know.
I'm not sure who you are addressing this to or if you're just making a statement. However, I believe giving up on your children is when you believe they aren't sentient enough beings to be communicated with and guided. I do believe you can do a lot as a parent and part of that is talking to them guiding them... the other part is keeping them busy and active in other activities so they don't get bored.. and yes, knowing where they are/what they are doing 'most of the time'. You can also teach them to do the 'right things' during the time you don't know. The problem arises when what you 'believe' is the right thing alters from what they 'believe' is the right thing. Trust me, kids do not always grow up with the same values, ethics, morals, and desires as parents do. Children are not 'mini-me's'. The sooner we realize, as a parent, that our children, especially teenagers, have their own minds and personalities.. have their own thoughts, dreams, and beliefs... the sooner we're able to reach them at a mutually acceptable level. I'm not suggesting being permissive and giving them total freedom. I'm suggesting finding out WHO THEY ARE .. and going from there.
As for the rest of what you are going on with.. I'll step away.. Nobody here has suggested giving the children freedom before they have earned the right.. or shown the maturity.. to have it. There may be different opinions on when that is, or how to go about that... but I haven't heard one parent out here say that they think giving in to the child is what is acceptable. You're preaching to the choir basically. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 12:27:38 PM | There may be a double standard, I am not sure, I suppose the thing I would be thinking about if I had lesbian daughter would be....Shes not going to get pregnant in there with a girl, rather than in there with a boy...
IMO | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:26:48 PM |
He might distinguish what is right from what is wrong, according to common standard of behaviors, but is he really able to discriminate between what is wholesome ( = conducive to own's own good) and what is not, at that age?
Yes, he is or she is, in many cases. Of course, it also depends on how the child has been raised and treated prior to reaching that 'sixteen' years of age. Now, if you said a 12 yr old, I might agree with you, but in many cases 16 yr olds are quite aware between what is wholesome for oneself and what is not.
Of course teenagers haven't experienced a whole spectrum of life. Nobody has even when they're in their old ages. They have experienced a lot and gained a ton of knowledge, but again their own lives and experiences have colored and shaped who they have become. I am NOT saying that ALL teenagers or 16 yr olds are able to make complete mature decisions.. but some.. many can. Again, it depends on the parenting style. If as a parent I restrict my child's choices or ability to make decisions so that "my choice/my world" is what they know, then of course they don't have that ability. However, if I slowly allow them the opportunity to make decisions for themselves, depending on what it is and the possible ramifications, alongside with the knowledge of their previous decisions/reactions/choices, then I am allowing growth and maturity to take root in them.
It has to do with sexual inclination, and, possibly, with the desire to experiment with what is out of the norm. Now, this whole thread was based on the assumption that the kid in question is lesbian or gay. How do they know that at 16 years old? I am of the opinion that sexual inclination is a choice, not something people get born with. Therefore in order to say "I am lesbian" one should have tried both. I doubt at 16 yo one has that kind of knowledge and life experience.
First of all, the original topic suggested both -- allowing a child to have sex under one's roof and if as a parent one would allow the other. While the last few posts have been based on heterosexual relationships it isn't meant to diminish homosexual relationship -- we have, most of us, already said that it wouldn't be different for 'us'.
Secondly, you are of the "opinion" that sexual inclination is a choice. That is your "opinion" and you are entitled to it but that doesn't mean your "opinion" is correct. There are studies that have been done and are continuously being done, and a lot of it actually leans towards it being biologically based -- at least SOME homosexuality is being shown to be biologically based and not 'choice'. Did you know that there are even homosexuality among dogs and other animals? How did they make the 'choice'. We studied in neuroscience that sometimes the homosexuality becomes more predominant when there is a population overload and a need to 'restrict' the reproduction of a species. Furthermore, male and female brains have sexually dimorphic areas. This means that they ARE different between the male and female species. How they look under the microscope and how they work. One such organ is the septal nuclei. Now, keep in mind that the comparisons took place after death, as they cannot be tested/checked when a person is alive. In any case, histological staining shows the difference in the amount of said nuclei between the male and the female brains. When the nuclei of the homosexual male was likewise tested, it showed a similar staining pattern to that of the female.
Does this prove that it is biological? Of course not. There are many different explanations that could be provided. It is but one of many 'curiosities' however that are being looked into. On another note, many people who are homosexual/lesbian will tell you that they "knew" they were different and interested in their own sex by the time they were 4-5 yrs of age!! How is it possible that those feelings and desires are 'by experience and choice' at that age? So while I do respect you in your right to your own opinion and while I won't sit up here and CLAIM it is definitely or 'only' biologically induced... I do believe that you may be wrong. Certainly, if it comes to your child - whenever you do have one- you will hopefully look into the matter more carefully rather than run on assumptions. And NO I'm not suggesting you allow your child go experiment with various types of sexuality... I'm just saying that if your child states they believe they are homosexual/lesbian that you take the time to learn about it rather than relying on 'opinions'.
Thirdly, about your statement that you doubt anyone 16 yrs of age have had that experience, I'm afraid you are highly mistaken. The number of teenagers these days who are 'virgins' at that age are very low. It is an unfortunate and sad reality of our present day society... and while I would definitely prefer to see everyone wait until they are 18 yrs of age (of course I do) they don't. I could not BEGIN to tell you the amount of homosexuality/lesbianism that is in the population at my daughters high school - well the one she just graduated from. This high school, however, was 'known' and a safe 'haven' for many such young men and women. The population were not into 'cliques' and were much more accepting of the odd and unusual... probably because it was a Performing Arts school as well. Nevertheless it was astounding over the years to discover who was and who wasn't "homosexual" or "bisexual". Ironically, while I don't believe in stereotyping individuals, many homosexual young men did display more feminine traits. Not all of them, but quite a few.
In any case... and for the record.. a child has developed about 50% of their personality and attitudes by the time they are FIVE years of age. That doesn't mean you can't teach them or guide them, or that the rest of their lives are unimportant. It just means that a huge part of their development has already occurred by that time. Then, by the age of 7 or 8 yrs, the child has developed 70% of their total personality and attitudes. IMAGINE that for a moment -- 70% of their personality (of course minus reasoning skills because they don't have full reasoning abilities at that age) has already been formed within a 7-8 yr old's mind. The rest of the years the teenagers develop reasoning abilities and being able to create ideas and other 'mentally' complex processes. The teenage years are the ones that are most difficult because they are getting so close to being adults and yet they aren't. It is during this time that we are to teach them HOW to use their mind and 'rationalize' or 'reason' their thoughts and experiences. This is why communication is so important and treating them as a 'human being' is likewise important. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:59:34 PM | rock_hunter
I am not sure why we are cycling and cycling around the same stupid old thing. I have NEVER said that you shouldn't teach your children that there are consequences to certain actions. I have NEVER said that underage sex should be promoted. And I have NEVER suggested that YOU should encourage your child to have freedom or to take risks. I have only EVER suggested communication.
Now, I have questioned what you would do if your child does have sex before he is of age or even afterwards while living at home. I have questioned you because, in spite of all your great intentions, there is a very good chance that he WILL. As for your comment on being "denied" the right to prepare your child I, personally, have never questioned that right. NOR have I "personally" suggested that someone "give them a room in the house". Actually, I stated I was 'uncomfortable' with that and didn't believe I could do that.
That being said, being a parent who "teaches" their children that certain actions have consequences does not GUARANTEE that they won't still partake in said actions. If they are going to partake will you have, at least, made sure they know that they are to have condoms/birth control? Or are you simply going to say "No way no how, not in my house Mr. or out you get!" and HOPE that it will keep him from becoming sexually active.
And, you know what, your comment that "If a kid is mature enough to have sex, he's mature enough to understand that sex should be delayed until you can cope with the worst-case scenario" is a very nice idea. However, you said your son can wait until he has a roof over his own head. Unfortunately, having a roof over one's head is NOT synonymous with being able to "cope with worst-case scenario".
In the end you and I are NOT in disagreement of what we want for either of our children. Our ways of teaching them and communicating may be at odds, but we both want and hope for our children to wait until they are adults and can handle what might happen.
Oh and while my son may be considered an 'exception'... it's not that simple. He may be ahead, but that doesn't mean that the 'average' or the rest of the pack is 'necessarily' far behind. Think of the normal bell curve. My son might sit closer to the +3 standard deviations from the mean... but there are oh so many who are near him the closer to the mean he gets. Of course, there are as many on the other side as well. Hence, guidelines are meant for the 'masses', but they can be changed or shifted and altered depending on individual circumstances. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/12/2008 9:56:26 AM | | Why are the most prolific writers on this thread both completely off topic and joined the site only a few weeks ago? Start a blog if you think people want to hear about YOUR life. | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/13/2008 10:44:21 PM | ^^^^^ talk about exlusivism. Since when does 'time' on the site equal freedom to participate - I never saw it in the rules. As for off-topic, it did go off-topic but the responses were always on-topic with what someone else wrote.
Oh yes, and just because it says that a person is a 'new' member doesn't mean they haven't been on the site previously, deleted their account, and returned again later.
Oh wait, and isn't YOUR comment 'off-topic' in and of itself? | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 5:12:22 PM | It does not make sense to arbitrarily ban teen age sex in my house.
If "kids" are going to be sexually active, the location does not change any of the risks
and may in fact make it riskier....
I do not mean to imply that we had "open house". We did have open dialogue.
Now on their own at 20 and 25 my older offspring do seem to be making good choices.
BZB | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 6:49:36 PM | | You know what...this isn't even a double standard....I don't care how many excuses you pile up, it changes nothing.....No! | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:56:04 PM | To veiled Inveigler
Hello :) Sorry for the delay in answering to your response - it has been a very busy week and it's only now that I found a bit of time to catch up with this interesting thread.
I read it all and I see you have written quite a bit to the other posters, and I must say that I am very impressed by your writings. I really hope I can find someone who shares you kind of values - you'd be the kind of mother I'd want for my kids, when I am ready to have them.
You are correct in that I have a very wonderful and enriching relationship with my kids although I have to admit that sometimes being open with them can be miscontrued as a 'friendship' during the teenage years and I have had to put my foot down once or twice as they mistook the boundary.. lol. No harm done because, while I had to ensure the boundary was present, my communication with them was open enough that they understood why I did so.. and realized the difference. I haven't had to do that in a while mind you ;)
Yes I can imagine :) You know, someone people (such as rock_hunter and his friend, to name only a few) seems incapable to notice the nuance between communicating with your kids and being a "friend". And I like how you clarified that fact that, even though sometimes, the difference might be slim, it is not the same - and sometimes, that limit has to be clarified. But the essence is: listening to your children as a full fledged human being, does not equate being friend with them.
What I do know is that I cannot get up on my soapbox and say "No way, No how"... to it. I've done that before and ended up with egg on my face.. lol.
Yep. After so much resistance and insults from the other posters, it is refreshing to notice someone who is capable of gray zones. Kudos to your wisdom!
AND you know what, the kids don't want to come home to that either... trust me, the topic HAS come up in discussions...
Of course! No adolescent would, usually, feel any more comfortable with their parents "around them" when they discover their sexuality, than their parents with them around - it's perfectly natural to want intimacy to be private. You got the main point I was trying to communicate: better to control it than dig your head in the sand and pretend it won't happen... and let it happen out of your control, in an unsafe situation.
Thank you for the kind wishes  you are a great person too. :) I'll look forward to your other interventions in other forums and threads, it's always a pleasure to read your comments. Take car & best of luck to you too!  | |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 12:54:07 PM | | It wouldn't make a difference to me whether my children we straight or gay my rules are there no matter what. I guess it would depend on age for one, how trusting they are, and what they would be doing. I am pretty set in my ways and they would have to earn the trust to have the door shut. I do understand privacy but it comes with respect and trust. That is why I make it a point to know who my kid friends are, where they are at and when they are coming home. There would also be no difference between the rules for my daughter and my son. The rules apply to both! | |
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| double standards
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:27:23 PM | The same "household rules" would apply. Bedroom doors stay open...lol
There's no need for teenage sexual activity in my house. Does it happen, yep.
Are teenagers sexually active, yep. Will I educate mine and supply them with a means to prevent STD's and pregnancy, yep. Will I make my house a motel, NOPE. And it has nothing to do with whether my child is straight or gay, same rules apply.
Just for the record, I'd love my child just the same and will not hold a double standard for anything based on my childs sexual preference.
GPH | |
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Posted: 8/22/2008 10:21:50 PM | to seriouslytaken:
Teenagers have not yet developed a sense of principles and conduct of behavior that is their own
Personally, I believe that if by the time they are teenagers, you haven't guided them successfully to acquire these principles, it will be too late to expect them to acquire these later in adulthood. Ethics and principles are fundamental, they are thought from day 1, by example, and later by teaching, while they are still children.
Now, this whole thread was based on the assumption that the kid in question is lesbian or gay. How do they know that at 16 years old?
What an interesting question. May I return you the same question: when did you know you were straight? Did you know it at 16 years old? Or at 13?
Isn't it funny how we assume gay / lesbian cannot know about their sexual orientation until they are "ready to make a choice" (?!?) yet of course, if we are straight, it is so "evident" we assume we know our sexual orientation sometimes way before 16? Personnally, I knew I was interested in women when I was between 11 and 12 years old. Why would it be different about gay / lesbian? They are just like us, human and all.
I am of the opinion that sexual inclination is a choice, not something people get born with
For the record, I would like to know if you believe that straight people also "choose" their sexual orientation? Did you "choose" yours?
Therefore in order to say "I am lesbian" one should have tried both.
Oh? And in order to say "I am straight" one should also try both, then? is that it?
I will grant you a difference. If you are, indeed, a lesbian, you might have had SO MUCH pressure from your peers and from the society to IGNORE your inner feelings and force yourself to "try" the straight orientation. So, yes, many lesbian might have to actually "try it" with a women to realize that they are, indeed, SO MUCH MORE attracted to woman than the society must be wrong. But this IS a double standard. Because if you are straight, then nobody is expecting you to "test" it with the same sex "just to be sure", right?
Every single one of my gay / lesbian friends - and I have quite a few, mind you - that is, 100% of every gay or lesbian person I know, knew their sexual orientation as naturally as we know ours, and never needed to "test" both to be sure: they never chose. They just are. | |
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