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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 5:52:39 PM | So you claim, or at least imply, that the human fetus (or "being" if you prefer, as that term seems to assuage any feelings of guilt or an applied denial regarding a soulful perspective), or a severly retarded person, or an elderly person afflicted with dementia, could have their lives terminated by someone else; and it would be moral and legal since they always have been--or somewhere along the line became--unaware of their individuality? Are you a Genuine Certified Prick? Or just playing the devil's advocate (which indeed has a valuable purpose in any and all discussions)?
When is someone an individual? They are an individual when they are not you. (Not you the person who poses the question, but you the person who is not them.)
We are only separated by caveman Ogg cracking caveman Gor's skull with a rock by about 75,000 or 100,000 years (and some impressive technology), which fools us into believing that we have actually evolved into intellectual beings and are not still crude survivalist brutes who happen to have the ability to split the atom which we can use to light our cities or incinerate other tribes who happen to oppose our self interest-based views.
Any species that kills its young due to perceived inconvenience to the breeder, yet then labels it as an assertion of privacy rights and/or choosing control of reproductive rights, is a species that is heartless and spiritually bereft. Which means that laws and notions of morality are for the chumps among us to follow. | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 453 | |
| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 6:06:16 PM |
Is it murder to kill one Siamese twin? Match? Any test cases
i'm no match for match of course but my guess would be that it's not murder to do whatever you can to save one twin assuming both cannot live. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 7:22:38 PM | OK. Let's go through this point by point, MD.
<div class="quote">So you claim, or at least imply, that the human fetus (or "being" if you prefer, as that term seems to assuage any feelings of guilt or an applied denial regarding a soulful perspective), or a seve rly retarded prson, or an elderly person afflicted with dementia, could have their lives terminated by someone else ...
I refer to the being in development inside an unwilling mother as a "being" to avoid having to mince words about whether it's a zygote, embryo, fetus, or legal person.
People who are self-aware, are. People whose brain function has stopped are dead for all practical purposes. What possible point could there be for keeping their bodies on life support interminably? No self awareness, nobody home. Severely retarded and other people who might not be productive are still home.
<div class="quote">Any species that kills its young due to perceived inconvenience to the breeder, yet then labels it as an assertion of privacy rights and/or choosing control of reproductive rights, is a species that is heartless and spiritually bereft. Which means that laws and notions of morality are for the chumps among us to follow.
Well, if we were in fact all in it together when it comes to raising children, I'd be with you on this. But when you put the entire responsibility on a single mother, one that she can't handle and knows it, and begrudge her and her child every bit of material help that they need, what kind of morality is that? Watching such mothers and children degenerate generation by generation until the best they can hope for is prison is also heartless and spiritually bereft. Perhaps even moreso than allowing the mother to nip that endless chain of misery in the bud.
The only difference between me and a woman who has had an abortion is that I got my tubes tied before I had any kids. And why did I do that? Because I knew I didn't have what it takes to be a good parent and could see the writing on the wall. So pardon me if I want the same option for other people who weren't as fortunate I a was to A) be male and have the operation be more convenient and B) be in a position to afford it.
My choice as permanent as far as I was concerned. But if someone wasn't yet ready but might be later, I wouldn't begrudge them the option of aborting when they weren't ready and having a child that they could actually care for when they were.
There are worse fates than dying. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 7:28:12 PM | The election case was not at all the kind of social activism the Court shamelessly engages in. I understand why the majority ruled as it did, and I'm persuaded by its legal reasoning.
Of course it was. Again, I'm not dicussing the final ruling. I'm discussing the timing of the ruling.
It is NOT an unwarranted intrusion into a state's electoral process to prevent a transparent attempt by its court to determine the outcome of a national election. Florida was NOT the final judge of Florida law, when a national election was at stake. No state has a right to disenfranchise voters in all the other states.
Then after the plainiffs had exhausted their remedies in Florida, the SCUS would have jurisdiction, and all 49 other Attorneys General could file their amicus briefs. But the SCUS jumped the gun, and _that_ is my procedural objection to their meddling. Their reasoning would have been just as sound after the recount, and at that point duly applied. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 7:50:14 PM | Continuing my point by point response to MD:
An embryonic snail is not self-aware, but it is still a snail.
No. It is not. It is embryonic tissue with the potential to develop into a snail.
Are you alleging that a human fetus isn’t a human?
It is a human fetus. I am not exactly sure when individual rights attach. But they certainly don't attach prior to consciousness as far as I'm concerned.
The legislative branch should codify the apparent agreement that society believes that you are not human until you are self-aware.
Perhaps they should, but since they didn't, and women's rights to control over their bodies were being abrogated by various states to one degree or another, the Court did its job by weighing the competing rights of the mother against the potentially unfounded claims of outsiders about the rights of an embryo.
But tell me, at what point do the rights of a being who is trespassing inside a woman take precedence over her own?
The moment she knowingly and willfully and recklessly had sex without bothering to take birth control measures--such negligence being the direct and proximate cause of her child’s conception.
And if she was raped, or if her birth control failed? Do those circumstances make any difference to the purported rights of an embryo or nonviable fetus? And on what basis can you prove that it wasn't birth-control failure? Since you really can't, you have to make a call for one or the other. There is nothing compassionate or spiritual about burdening a child with an unwilling and incompetent parent just so that the rest of us can feel righteous. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 8:11:48 PM | I have no idea about any Siamese twin cases, but I'd be glad to discuss sleepwalking as a defense to murder.
Interesting how discussions of abortion often seem to involve euthanasia and eugenics, also.Progressives were fascinated by eugenics as a modern, scientific way to improve our society. Sterilization of the feeble-minded, habitual criminals, and other undesirables--who were often seen as being over-represented among non-whites--was the way to go. When these ideas took root in Germany, and sterilization was replaced by elimination, the results were horrific.
I think there's still some interest in eugenics and euthanasia on the so-called left. Think of the "death panels" that Rahm Emanuel's doctor brother discussed in the context of nationalized health care. Mr. Obama, too, was a strong supporter of partial-birth abortion (a sort of eugenics-after-the fact) as a legislator in Illinois. And Planned Parenthood, a party in at least two of the Court's reproductive rights decisions, Griswold and Casey--and an organization many of today's feminists seem to admire--was founded by the eugenicist (and flagrant racist) Margaret Sanger. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 8:17:12 PM | The most grisly and blatant of modern leftist thinking re: abortion & eugenics is Dr. Peter Singer, harvard, naturally, who believes abortion should be allowed up to one month post-birth.
The utilitarian-Malthusian view the left embraces puzzled me for many years, then I realized they were simply mom's basement living, amoral, thugs looking for a free lunch, or somone willing to obtain power by playing to these kind of people.
Mystery solved, next conundrum. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/20/2009 8:48:30 PM | And Planned Parenthood, a party in at least two of the Court's reproductive rights decisions, Griswold and Casey--and an organization many of today's feminists seem to admire--was founded by the eugenicist (and flagrant racist) Margaret Sanger.
This guilt-by-association argument doesn't fly. If the ACLU could defend the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie--a Jewish lawyer was their advocate BTW--people who support the rights of individuals to choose to terminate a pregnancy don't all have to be savory for the principle to be sound.
There is a difference between a governmental eugenics program and individuals who choose, like I did, not to reproduce--or not to reproduce at this time. There is a lot more to successful reproduction than giving birth. If someone's not up for it, I'm not up for forcing them.
But hey, if you really want irresponsible, unprepared, and unwilling people to raise kids without help, and you really want to deal with the multigenerational consequences of that, I guess you can pay the taxes. Yes? | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 460 | |
| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:24:58 AM |
Sterilization of the feeble-minded, habitual criminals, and other undesirables--who were often seen as being over-represented among non-whites--was the way to go. When these ideas took root in Germany, and sterilization was replaced by elimination, the results were horrific.
I think there's still some interest in eugenics and euthanasia on the so-called left.
i guess i've never known which direction is which; my left from my right. hitler was about as far on the right as any neo fascist right wing extremist can get. stalin could not have been more the left wing socialist if he tried. both are the poster boys for sterilization and elimination monsters. how do crimes against humanity become associated with the so called left or the so called right? i keep hearing that christianity cannot be associated with the crusades and the inquisition. the faithful tell me those were committed by bad people and not christians. so how are eugenics and euthanasia products of the so called left? why is anything a product of the left? does the left exist? does the right exist? i'm called a right wing fascist neo con often for my veiws on taxes, entitlements, socialized health care, etc., and of course im a bleeding heart liberal sitting somewhere to the left of micheal moore because of my views on the second amendment, a woman's right to choose, the death penalty and other notions those on the right call blasphlemy. ah nevermind. as i said in the beginning of the post, i've never known which direction is which. | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 461 | |
| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:35:45 AM | | as i wrote the above post i was reminded of a test i took online awhile back. the test will tell you where you stand on the "political compass". i appologize for breaking my rule of not posting urls on the forums but i'm not trying to argue a point here. just thought you might be entertained. | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 462 | |
| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:14:02 AM | oops. forgot the url.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/index
if anybody cares, i fall about a 32nd of an inch right of the vertical axis and below the horizontal about the same distance. where are you? | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 10:33:24 AM | Interesting how discussions of abortion often seem to involve euthanasia and eugenics
That's because abortion opponents project them as the unacceptable outcomes of any abortion policy. It's part of their slippery-slope arguments.
I think there's still some interest in eugenics and euthanasia on the so-called left.
There are definite problems with euthenasia. There are also problems with forcing someone to live who no longer wants to. But I don't know anyone on the left who would deny life to a person who wants to live another day that day, no matter how tragic their condition. Nor would you find anyone on the left who would deny someone who has even a slight chance of regaining consciousness the chance to do so.
But that does not mean we should not check in with someone whose only reason for living on in abject misery is a fear of death. If they can be comforted to face what is inevitable with courage and in peace, what is wrong with that? And if they come to a decision that they want to go on fighting for every last breath, more power to them.
Not everyone wants to fight to the bitter end. End-of-life planning and counseling could of course be perverted by any payer organization--public or private. But how does that differ from what we have now, where profit takers can simply cut people off when their care is projected to get expensive?
I don't think you'll find anyone on the left who favors eugenics any more. It's been at least a generation or two since anyone on the left took that backward notion seriously. The left figured out long ago that the synergies of multiculturalism, the benefits of hybrid vigor, and the freedom that comes from the actual presumption of equality far outweigh any of the purported benefits of culling.
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 10:49:53 AM |
if anybody cares, i fall about a 32nd of an inch right of the vertical axis and below the horizontal about the same distance. where are you?
Same quadrant. A little bit farther to the left and below your position. Say, mabye 1/3rd the distance from the center.
I liked the idea of their political and economic axes as two dimensions of discourse. When I was younger, those 2D concept maps seemed silly to me. However, they are often surprisingly useful.
Political range: authoritarian -> anarchistic
Economic range: centrally planned -> free market
I guess the clearest statement of my general position would be:
Politically: The role of a government is to safeguard individual rights against infringement by powerful or deceitful individuals and combinations.
Economically: For short-term allocations, nothing beats the market. For long-term prosperity, everyone needs a plan. There is an objectively determinable best place to put a road--taking into account the ramifications of that road for its entire operating life. We might not be able to do all that math yet, but we can make good approximations. A government needs to be strong enough and accountable enough to ensure that the road gets placed there. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:20:09 AM | Very biased compass. Questions are very leading and worded to elicit a certain response. The answers that I wanted were not on there. Surveys are like statistics, manipulated by the science of outcome determination.
That is why polls suck. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:35:39 AM |
For long-term prosperity, everyone needs a plan
Out of curiosity, I'll have to study Wealth of Nations to see what Smith thought about long-term effects. The experiments with centrally planned economies don't seem to have yielded a lot of economic prosperity. Except, of course, in countries like Cuba and North Korea. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:41:51 AM |
That is why polls suck.
Because they're based on voluntary sampling so they're prejudicial from the start. Margin of error is moot as well. (yes, I aced statistics)
Back to the thread title,
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prostitution should be legal, safe, sane, consentual, taxed, monitored and healthy. FFS people, no one cares what others do with their own bodies. Consentual is the operative word here. Animals don't consent, children don't consent, you get the gist. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:59:32 AM | Can anyone in the forum answer his question based on experience?...
Try starting here:
http://www.bunnyranch.com/ | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:07:44 PM | Out of curiosity, I'll have to study Wealth of Nations to see what Smith thought about long-term effects.
There is a school that believes the long term is just a series of short terms. There is another that believes there is a more-or-less predictable business cycle. But the shortcoming in both of these views is an overly mechanistic model. The central planners don't leave room for adjustment. The free marketeers ignore the need for preparation.
Cuba and N. Korea are not doing well at all because they ignore the market. OTOH, when everyone ignored the role of long-range planning and regulation, we got the Great Depression. When I refer to planning, I'm not talking about those stupid 5 year plans that tried to micromanage down to the penny, but strategic investment in basic research, education, infrastructure development, and (OMG) social programs to aid those who are dislocated by economic shifts. No one can say exactly how an economy will grow. But you can train it to head in a desirable direction in much the same way as you can train the growth of a tree.
You cannot, and need not, specify the location of every leaf. All you need to do is pick the buds that show the most promise for growth in a direction that is likely to capture the most light (resources), and pinch back other buds that are likely to interfere with them. Once you set the growth pattern toward the most profitable directions, availability of resources (supply) and the capacity of the tree to utilize them (demand) will determine the eventual size and configuration of the tree.
Economies are living systems. They require both freedom to adjust and consistent ontology (directed development) in order to function at their best. That's why we have orchards and farms rather than just foraging for food. | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 473 | |
| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:26:37 PM |
Same quadrant. A little bit farther to the left and below your position. Say, mabye 1/3rd the distance from the center.
hmmm. one of us is navigating off course. lol. to be clear, i'm damn near dead center located in the lower RIGHT quadrant in it's upper left corner. if you're a third of an inch left of me you're in the lower LEFT quadrant. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 2:45:31 PM |
no one cares what others do with their own bodies.
Well, *I* sure don't, but it's a big country, and a lot of people do. I think bluenoses have the right to live in the kind of town, county, or state they want, if they're the majority. In Nevada, I understand prostitution's only legal in some counties--maybe that's another way to do it. | |
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| Should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 9/21/2009 5:46:56 PM |
In this day an age of incurable STDs, then again they had those in the past too, the kind of promiscuity implied by prostitution is almost a death sentance.
O-RLY? Do you have evidence to support this? Do you have evidence that will show how legalized & well regulated brothels are more of a public health risk than the unlicensed, unregulated, and untested prostitutes that live & operate in your town each and every day?
Nevada law requires that registered brothel prostitutes be tested weekly (by a cervical specimen) for gonorrhea and Chlamydia trachomatis, and monthly for HIV and syphilis; furthermore, condoms are mandatory for all oral sex and sexual intercourse.
(source: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-441A.html#NAC441ASec800)
When was the last time you demanded to see someone's "clean papers" before having sex with them? Were they dated only a few days ago? What gives you the right to tell a woman she doesn't have the right to choose her profession? | |
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