| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 11:43:03 AM |
I notice that on many of your comments you only tell part of the stories. To me that is taking things out of context and using the true information to prove something false.
Look at your message 30. What point were you trying to make? To me you were putting America down. Most every post I see you make on these forums you seem to have something bad to say about the U.S.A.
You listed these conflicts as empire building. You stated reasons for the conflicts which is good. But there was much more to these conflicts than what you stated. You can not just put up a list like this which has history prior and after. Many things lead up to the things in your list. Too much to mention in a forum like this. That is where it is not fair to post a list like this.
Yes the United States is a large and powerful country. Yes the United States has interests in other countries. All countries do. The global economy started back before the New World was discovered. Everything has a reason. Not all reasons for actions are evil.
I do not have a lot of time to spend on this but I can elaborate at a later time. I have a meeting to go to in a few minutes. I should be able to further elaborate on this Sunday.
That post was from this website:
http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm
It's a US Navy website. If you go to it, you'll see the US had used it's forces all over the world since 1798. Whether this is anti-US or not, they are facts. If you don't like the facts, then the problem is not with me.
ALL countries do not have interests in other countries. The US tells almost every other country in the world what to do and has exploited weaker nations since it's inception.
the US is a modern day neocolonial empire.
Whether the world would be better off another way is a different question, but at least let's be honest about what's going on. If you won't admit the truth, how do we debate the problems? | |
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| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 11:43:14 AM | ^ And WW3 happened a long time ago too. The world HAS changed as we knew it with MANY new alliances and riffs which could never have been imagined. I.E. France and Germany as partners and Britain and the USA as partners. ;)
WHat are we on now; WW11 or so?
We're o.k.
and the beat goes on and on and on.
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| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 11:47:32 AM | ALL countries do not have interests in other countries
Most countries actually do have interests in other countries. Call it embassy, or, ambassadors, or businesses, or medical aid teams, etc etc etc
WW3 IS the last great war on earth; because it just never ends, as we are ALL involved FOREVER in each others business. We cannot HELP but be as there are SO many people on the earth with SO many expansive interests and networks. People are dying, ownerships are changing, governments are rising and falling, boundaries changing, etc etc etc etrc etc.
*shrugs*
Just my two cents, if you will bare with the philosophy n such.
DRINK CANDIAN BEER!!! WOOHOO!!! | |
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| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 11:50:46 AM | Hal
If you are asking about my position on the 'war for oil' idea, it is that while I do not believe oil was the reason for the war I agree that we considered oil in our planning for the war, to have not done so would be poor preparation. I think Bush wanted to rid the world of Saddam from the day he entered office, and seized upon the WMD intel (now known to be cr*p) as the justification.
I think the war was technically illegal and that our intel folks need to be reamed good, but hope that the fledgling democracy takes hold and brings lasting peace to the area. I would actually like to see some oil for us in remuneration for the liberation of Iraq, but in as fair a manner as possible to the Iraqi's.
Anything else you want to know just ask, and I will be happy to provide references for my posts (I usually do when I use stats or quotes).
MajMike
Major(R), USAF
100% DAV | |
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| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 11:53:42 AM | frrosty: Look at this map and tell me how many other nations have military presence in 156 nations. There are only forty something nations that DON'T have US Military.
So you don't call this an empire????
http://www.ecclectica.ca/issues/2003/1/image007.jpg
I hope our attempt to change the government in Iraq works also. I think it was a bad decision for the reason that it wasn't necessary and I believe we could have done the same thing without going to war... but now that we're there, I hope it works.
However, I have no doubt in my mind that our entire presence in the middle east has to do with oil. Iraq is merely a subproblem related to that.
Nations have fought over resources before. I can't think of any where resources were not at the heart of the problem actually... but at least let's admit the truth! | |
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| I agree somewhat with you
Posted: 4/15/2005 12:09:59 PM | Elwood et al
This map includes any country with more than the minimum number of embassy Marines, which includes engineer units building roads and drilling wells, medical units on humanitarian missions, advisors/liasions to local forces, etc. Some empire, huh?
MajMike | |
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| NO WMD.
Posted: 4/15/2005 12:39:03 PM | ^ Canada, as I understand it, very much acknowledges the US contribution to our identity and who we are.
How could we not; they are our only land neighbour.
That does not mean that we will not throw a punch at them to try n make them see how stupid they are being at times..no? Even if it means our nose may become bloodied in the fray?
Little brothers, or even sisters for that matter; ya gotta love em...no?
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| NO WMD.
Posted: 4/15/2005 6:57:42 PM | "Hal"... I don't even believe you're "hal". I believe you're probably watchman or someone who got ground into dust because of his fallacious reasoning and lies and you're too humiliated to show your first face *LMFAO* BECAUSE YOU LOST THE ARGUMENT!!!
I said what I thought and posted the website. You don't like my conclusions...
so what?
I didn't misstate any facts. I gave my opinion on this topic.
That big long post you made says a whole lotta nuthin... | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:02:31 PM | http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/15/international/middleeast/15graves.html
BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 14 - Investigators have discovered several mass graves in southern Iraq that are believed to contain the bodies of people killed by Saddam Hussein's government, including one estimated to hold 5,000 bodies, Iraqi officials say.
The graves, discovered over the past three months, have not yet been dug up because of the risks posed by the continuing insurgency and the lack of qualified forensic workers, said Bakhtiar Amin, Iraq's interim human rights minister. But initial excavations have substantiated the accounts of witnesses to a number of massacres. If the estimated body counts prove correct, the new graves would be among the largest in the grim tally of mass killings that have gradually come to light since the fall of Mr. Hussein's government two years ago. At least 290 grave sites containing the remains of some 300,000 people have been found since the American invasion two years ago, Iraqi officials say. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:04:42 PM | | Hal: you never made a point. You're an idiot, and a right wing extremist. You may think you can come in here and assert some type of intellectual authority in here just by having some funky nick like "Hal 9000" *LOL*, but I KNOW when I'm losing an argument. I've debated with intelligent people, and neither you or watchman, OR MajMike, OR BM, OR Sealacamp OR tonyki is one of them.... Twist and shout | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:25:14 PM | BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 14 - Investigators have discovered several mass graves in southern Iraq that are believed to contain the bodies of people killed by Saddam Hussein's government, including one estimated to hold 5,000 bodies, Iraqi officials say.
Bulldogmedic!!!!!!!!
When will you understand that the American press only reports on things that will support the war and the government you folks have down there. Wag The Dog man.
People sometimes see only what they want to see or what their governments want them to see. Although I can get USA tv up here, I would never watch an American newscast. It is so biased it makes me want to puke sometimes. When I watch Canadian newscasts, I see people in Iraq crying out for the USA to leave. I see protests with thousands of people in each screaming at the ileagal activitiy this war is. I see the bodies of dead US soldeirs with hundreds of Iraqies cheering over them. I doubt that your press would ever show you the truth.
So feel free to get caught up in the American propaganda. It is all about personal government agendas.
Goodness!!!! Even Bill Clinton sent in unshedualed bombing raids the day after the story of that chick blowing him under his desk hit the press. It was worth killing a bunch of non US people to get that story off the front page. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:33:17 PM |
When will you understand that the American press only reports on things that will support the war and the government you folks have down there. Wag The Dog man.
Wow. Many conservatives would say that the mainstream media is biased against the war. I suppose that you are quite qualified to report on this, seeing as how you "would never watch an American newscast." I love non-biased, Canadian input. It's always so enlightening, and never filled with the same party-line rhetoric that they denounce. | |
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korky
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Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 63 | |
| My two bits again
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:44:42 PM | Its interesting reading all your comments about who is right and who is wrong RE. Evil Empires and screwed up empires. Some of you have good points and a lot is Balderdash. Reading the list earlier about all the squabbles and wars the US has been in since becoming a Republic answers our question. The common denominator in all these cases are US interests in other countries and that is wherein the problems arise. This is ok to a point but when they get in there they become the dictator and all of a sudden they want to control the country. As my father used to say they put a wedge in and keep driving it until they bust everything wide open and create complete chaos. Communism is out and never really worked anyway although it did somewhat for China and Russia when their people had nothing. At least it put everybody to work to survive and they at least had some food and medical care. Democracy is not the answer either as now we have the rich living on the backs of the poor who have lost all hope. Ronald Regan made a wonderful comment by saying that these people WANT to live on the streets----what kind of idiotic thinking is that. Their government goes around enticing the poor to join the military to defend their freedom from what---something that the US Government and Corporations have brought on themselves. The only ones benefitting from all this are the big Corporations, they ship the poor, the brainwashed ( and probably brain damaged too) overseas to get killed so that big business and the US can control the world. What a wonderful senario and how do the poor benefit from all this. When they get home, if ever, their lives are messed up, limbs blown off and mental problems from what they have experienced. Did you know that more vetrans have committed suicide than the 60,000 killed in the Vietnam war. Over 300,000 were also wounded for a war they never won, isn't that a wonderful legacy. Out of all the US Senators only one has a son that is in Iraq and I'm sure he doesn't want to be there.
As I said earlier Communism and Democracy aren't the answer on their own ---- What does work is a Social Democratic society where everybody benefits. There is the insentive to succeed and the homeless are taken care of---- Make friends with other countries and invest in them an let them see how a successful US operates---- let that country participate in the benefits instead of attacking them for your own gain. We in Canada have our problems with the US over BSE, Lumber etc, we are continually dictated to and threatened--- what type of taste does that put in our mouth. Go figure.
Can someone enlighten me on some of these statements. When the American Indian wiped out a platoon of soldiers, it was a MASSACRE but when the Indians were wiped out it was a VICTORY.
When you talk about flying a Sortie why not be truthful and say that you are flying to kill as many people as you can.
When you have Collateral damage why not say you just wiped a whole lot of people.
Why would you make a statement like AXIS of EVIL when you helped create the problem and are part of it. Does this statement make you feel more superior. There are lots more of this type of lies that fools the population.
You see by making these statements it sounds good and gets the population behind the corruption of your government. (Its known as BAFFLEGARB) | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:49:07 PM | Just to give the duller blades on this thread a chance to catch up:
Here's watchman's argument:
Let's say the tax base is 100 and we have 100 people in the country.
Top 50 people pay $99 (not 98 like you suggest, we have 100% of a tax base right?)
The bottom 50 people pay $1
This means that the top 50 people pay $1.98 each
This means the bottom 50 people pay $0.02 each
You're suggesting that the bottom 50 people pay 98 times what they pay now.
That would be 98 X .02 or $1.96 each.
$1.96 x 50 people equals $98.00
As you can clearly see, the bottom 50 people paying 98 times the 1% is still not as much as the top 50 people pay. The top 50 people pay $1.98 each.
Now what I am saying is that ALL 100 people pay $1.00 each.
Now... if you raise the bottom 50%'s taxes from $.02 to 1.00, you're raising taxes by $.98, right? Now if the bottom 50% of the taxpayers are paying 10%...(which is about what they are paying) and multiply that times a factor of 49, which is what $.98 divided by $.02 comes to, then you're raising taxes to 49 x what they're paying now... which means that since they're paying 10% of their income, the total would become 490% of their current taxable income.
It's totally ridiculous.
You'd have to slash the federal budget or raise the bottom taxpayers income MANYFOLD in order to make it happen.
Watchman's dumb idea held up to the light of day | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/16/2005 1:59:58 AM | korky
Did you know that George Bush's grandfather backed and supplied Hitler with equipment and steel for their war machine during WW2.
You should walk around with a sign on your back saying how wrong you are.
Firstly he invested in steel,plate,pig iron etc in the early 30s to a german steel company that simply was used for construction or ship building. this was before the spanish civil war and definatly before world war 2 so how the hell can you tie prescotte bush to the German high command? After all hitler was the head of the german high command and the leader of the Nazi party. The NAZI party didnt show eny sign of wrongdoing or atrocities till the G.I.s investigated the concentration camps near the closing days of the war in europe.
If prescotte bush was not part of the german high command and he invested in a steel company in the early 30s how does one know it was going to be used to fuel a war when the only people who had war and invasion plans was hitler and the german high command? awnser that one please korky since your so full of wisdom lol. | |
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| NO WMD.
Posted: 4/16/2005 9:42:51 PM | | what's this "WE own eveything" comment? We own shit! A few...very few own almost everything and WE must continue to allow the status quo without question, or risk being named a terrorist....COMMUNIST ETC. "YOU'RE EITHER FOR US (THE FEW THAT OWN MOST EVRYTHING) OR YOUR AGAINST US" | |
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| NO WMD.
Posted: 4/16/2005 9:45:05 PM | | what's this "WE own eveything" comment? We own shit! A few...very few own almost everything and WE must continue to allow the status quo without question, or risk being named a terrorist....COMMUNIST ETC. "YOU'RE EITHER FOR US (THE FEW THAT OWN MOST EVRYTHING) OR YOUR AGAINST US" | |
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| My two bits again
Posted: 4/16/2005 10:09:12 PM | "Nixon and Reagan were both Californians, so Phfffffffffffft to your "left coast" argument."
Actually, Reagan was born in 1911 Tampico,Illinois and stayed in Illinois till about 1937..and credited most of his values to the heartland.
Just alittle fun fact for ya! | |
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| My two bits again
Posted: 4/17/2005 6:23:04 AM | To me you were putting America down. Most every post I see you make on these forums you seem to have something bad to say about the U.S.A.
You hit the nail on the head, just a look at all the topics he started validates your point. Add to that the fact he will take posts made by other members and omit and renovate them to make ridiculous statements and outright lies and you have a prime time candidate to ignore, which works rather well by the way....;) | |
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| Iraq is Free, get over it
Posted: 4/17/2005 10:38:07 AM |
Since 1945 the US intervened on average once every 18 months somewhere in the world
In reaction to similar interventions by the Soviet Union. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/18/2005 8:45:39 AM | Not so swiftcut:
He retained interest in those companies after the war started, even though his own son was flying a carrier plane in the Pacific.
He had to be forcibly divested by Congress of some of the holdings, but it was proven after the war that he retained interest in some holdings that had continued doing business with the Axis during the war and didn't seel them until as late as 1951.
Issue II
The NAZI party didnt show eny sign of wrongdoing or atrocities till the G.I.s investigated the concentration camps near the closing days of the war in europe.
So Hitler fighting against the US wasn't bad enough for him to sell off his stocks in companies that furnished oil, weapons and ammo to the enemy?
HELLL no... that's not a good enough excuse for HIM not to make money off a war!!!
FOR SHAME!!!!
Hitler probably never would have come to power in Germany had it not been for money funneled to him from Bush, Ford and Rockefeller starting as early as 1924. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/18/2005 8:51:45 AM | Hitler probably never would have come to power in Germany had it not been for his parents. Or air. Or nutrient-rich food that sustained the process of oxygenated blood reaching his brain.
If we can blame Ford, then can't we blame anyone who bought a Ford car? Elwood, did YOUR family support Hitler? I bet they did. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/18/2005 9:25:26 AM | Antoine69
Well it wasn't exactly done for Weapons of Mass Destruction,because none were ever found before U.S went into Iraq,and to this day none have been found.There was no need for America to go into Iraq,they never once did anything to you guys,it's Alquada that did.I agreed with the war in Afganistan but I don't agree with what is going on in Iraq.I can't think of any reason other then oil for Bush want his military to go in there.
You can't just go into a country for no reason and not expect anything to happen in future,blame Bush for that just because he's oil hungry.Several American soldiers have died because of him.
WMD not found....not true
Bush was acting on what US intelligence was telling him.
No reason to go Iraq....again wrong.
The Iraqi people were under 'Sodamn Insane's' power living a complete hell. | |
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| NO WMD, just hundreds of thousands dead.
Posted: 4/18/2005 10:19:11 AM | | In a way I guess it was for oil. To take Sadam out of power so the Iraqi people could have their oil. Maybe they will be glad to share it with us. Sorry all you countries that didn't want to help....you had your chance. | |
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