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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/12/2007 5:50:05 PM |
When the nation is deceived and misled by a criminal administration, as we are now; I would consider the oath to serve no more binding than an oath to the mafia.
Just like individuals, a nation is what it does. This president has used his office to misuse the public trust that people have when they make an oath like that.
Bush has destroyed US credibility to our own citizens as well as the world. He should be impeached so new leaders can come in and have an opportunity to rebuild trust and faith in government.
Impeaching Bush and Cheney would be a dam good way to do it.
Well said. Amen | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/14/2007 8:26:16 AM | You can spout off about the Administration as much as you'd like. However, the case in point is still that someone paid to take orders said "Nah, I'd rather just not this time." "But the presidency is criminal", you say. That doesn't matter. When he signed up he signed for everything and anything the Army chose for him to do.
Keep in mind, though, that you (meaning Americans) had the chance to send Bush back to Texas. People were so fed up with Bush that y'all gave him a majority. Good idea that two party system.  | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/14/2007 9:07:41 PM | | * See page 1 msg:13 It will explain my take ,and for what it means I DID NOT VOTE EITHER TIME for Bush as I know too much about his life and the kind of person he has been and still is. You can only get rid of so much evidence. Sometimes you miss things,records and people with the knowledge of his past is just as bad as the present.Money or not He is a loser. | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/14/2007 10:01:59 PM | Neysha said in msg 249:
Just as I said in the personal email, this will be debated till the end of days.
How true. I recognize that not everybody will agree on this subject. In your personal email to me, you said:
I get the feeling you believe you are far more intelligent than I...
What I took issue with (among other things), was your attempt to use false information to support your views. When you said that Bush had "overwhelming majority support", it just wasn't true. It never has been true, now more than ever. I was correcting you when you attempted to misrepresent reality. You are free to interpret it however you choose.
You went on to say:
...*and just as an aside there sweets, I don't own a TV or watch the news* I get my information from several other sources. Note, I didn't call them reliable, I just said sources.
Clearly they aren't reliable if they're telling you that Bush ever had "overwhelming majority support".
Some think LT Watada is a coward/POS/whatever, and some don't. But if you're going to come into the forums popping off about what other members can do who don't agree with your views, don't be surprised if somebody calls you on your shit. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. Ya get what ya give. There are plenty of people in these forums that don't agree with one another, but they are able to do so agreeably. Why? Because they've learned to interact like adults.
And the fact that you are belligerent, aggressive, and antagonistic in the forums but get offended when somebody calls you on it, speaks volumes. Honestly, I would suggest that you might benefit from therapy. | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/16/2007 1:34:42 AM | | Neysha61, I get the idea that you are an all or nothing, black and white kinda thinker. If someone doesn't support the Iraq war 100% (which includes almost everyone except Bush/Cheney), then that person, to you, must hate the US and take his liberties for granted. The big problem with that sort of black and white thinking is that it leaves almost everyone in the dark... including yourself *nudge, nudge, wink, wink* | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/16/2007 2:45:10 AM | Six years? Thats a bit light. This is the reason the united staes will go the way of Rome. No one in this country has the guts or the foresight to do what needs to be done. The fascist Islam must be stopped. However back to the topic at hand. If the jackass didn't want to fight he shouldn't have joined the Army. I sure as hell didn't want our soldiers dying in some Wag the Dog War Like Somalia. I'm sure they didn't want to be there either. Yet, they went. If you join the Military you give up you luxury of speaking out against your countrys foreign policy. They same way my family has done for generations.
I don't expect to sway any of you that are so steeped in anti-establishment propaganda to actually understand anything other than your own recycled viewpoints you spew forth for each other.
For those of you who actually want to know the opinion or a real foot soldier and not some coward looking for money from interest groups. Are we needed in Iraq? Yes for three reasons
One, to divert terrorists from our own country. It's better to be fighting them over there than over here.
Two, to pressure other middle eastern countires against futher development of weapons of mass destruction by showing that the United States is not soem giant paper tiger. For proof of this look at the WMD program of Lybia. Thats right folks it's not there anymore and Qadaffi is allowing routine inspections of his former weapons sites. Lybia used to be one of the leaders in WMD research among middle eastern nations.
Three, The Iraqi people deserve to determine their own destiny. How can you possibly disagree with that. Perhaps you don't think Arabs capable of self rule.
As for the Execution of the war. We definitely needed far more troops than we sent. Only now is the administration waking up to what the military has been saying all along.
OK now lets get over with the appropriate force, stop the crap out of the insurgency and come home. We don't need cowards like this joker anyway. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/16/2007 7:06:53 AM |
One, to divert terrorists from our own country. It's better to be fighting them over there than over here.
So, you honestly think if there weren't US troops in Iraq, there would be warfare in your streets?
Two, to pressure other middle eastern countires against futher development of weapons of mass destruction by showing that the United States is not soem giant paper tiger.
I guess Iran and Korea are just figments of our imagination, then.
Three, The Iraqi people deserve to determine their own destiny.
Indeed they do. Unfortunately, this war has taken them even further from that happening.
As for the Execution of the war. We definitely needed far more troops than we sent. Only now is the administration waking up to what the military has been saying all along.
That's what the military was saying three years ago. Now it is saying the extra troops won't help, and might actually make things worse.
OK now lets get over with the appropriate force, stop the crap out of the insurgency and come home.
Please explain how the extra force is going to stop the insurgency. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/16/2007 8:09:30 AM | Six years? Thats a bit light. Actually, by the time this is all over, I hope he will not even get that ...
No one in this country has the guts or the foresight to do what needs to be done. What would that be? Invade a sovereign nation under false pretenses so they can steal the oil? I see it's in the works ...
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingposts6366605.aspx
The fascist Islam must be stopped. Nothing but neocon war mongering rhetoric.
However back to the topic at hand. If you join the Military you give up you luxury of speaking out against your countrys foreign policy. Yes let's do stay on topic ... lots of other soldiers around the world are setting a wonderful example for Lt. Watada by also speaking up against their country's foreign policy.
I believe anyone should do their duty when they sign a contract to do something, but I respect Lt. Watada for following his conscience ... something it appears that the man who ordered him to fight does not have.
Bush has no conscience, so I guess it's up to the soldiers now ... right?
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/16/2007 9:51:56 AM | ^^^The thread that was noted in that post is gone, but here is one that is on the same subject:
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/5699891datingPostpage4.aspx
"Bush's Petro-Cartel Almost Has Iraq's Oil"
It certainly adds light to my feelings about our true presence in Iraq ...
... and just gives me more reason to support Lt. Watada's reasoning for not going to Iraq.
This is not our war ... this is about making Bushco more wealthy ... nothing else. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/17/2007 2:29:49 PM | This from Veterans for Peace:
Military Personnel Present Iraq Petition at Capitol
by David Welna
Active-duty members of the U.S. armed forces visit Capitol Hill to present more than 1,000 signatures demanding that lawmakers cut off funding for the Iraq war. They say that most of the people who signed the Appeal for Redress have served in Iraq, while others expect to be sent there. Two House Democrats received the petition and promised to urge the entire House to consider it.
One of those presenting the petition was Marine Sgt. Liam Madden, 22, who, two years, ago did combat duty in Iraq's turbulent Anbar province. Madden dressed in a civilian coat and tie in a chilling wind outside the Capitol to formally present the 1,028 appeals for redress from other active-duty forces — 60 percent of them fellow Iraq veterans.
"We will not tolerate the rhetoric that we must support the troops by funding a war that puts them in harm's way," Madden said. "If you are funding a war that puts them in harm's way, you are not supporting them. You are endangering their lives for a war that cannot be justified, has not been justified and will not work."
The actual text of the Appeal for Redress reads, "I respectfully urge my political leaders in Congress to support the prompt withdrawal of all American military forces and bases from Iraq. Staying in Iraq will not work and is not worth the price."
California Army National Guard Sgt. Jabbar Magruder, 24, who also fought two years ago in Iraq, visited the Capitol along with Madden. He too, dressed in civilian clothes. He said he had not told his commander about the appeal he signed.
Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich, a longtime opponent of the war and also a presidential contender, received the documents.
"The action taken here by individual service members is an appeal for redress to end the war in Iraq," Kucinich said. "As you know, these troops have risked their careers to deliver this message to Congress."
None of the three active-duty servicemembers who were at the Capitol Hill event reported any reprisals from military superiors. Massachusetts Democrat Jim McGovern promised them Congress will act on their demands. | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/17/2007 4:20:20 PM | I just have a few questions in this regard:
When he signed up he signed for everything and anything the Army chose for him to do.
How many people in the different branches of the military who agree with this statement would also stand behind it if they were ordered to do Kamikazee runs or suicide bombings? What if you were ordered to kill your wife/husband and children? Perhaps these scenarios are unlikely to happen, but if no one ever stands up to those who give the orders, who's to stop them from eventually giving such orders? Why should they draw a line that they won't cross when they are accountable to no one? | |
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| Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/17/2007 10:11:05 PM | One thing I never agreed with while I was in the military, was that your family comes second. In those days, I was single so it didn't really affect me. To this day, I would never put anything before my family. So no, I would not follow orders blindly from a commanding officer if I know deep down that they conflict with what I believe in.
Better to follow what your heart, mind, and your higher self tell you. I trust myself above what anybody else can tell me. | |
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| Support 1st US Army Officer to Speak Out Agst Iraq War - Support our troops - bring 'em home!
Posted: 1/18/2007 1:44:43 PM | This from Veterans for Peace:
PROTESTERS WILL URGE CONGRESS TO STAND UP TO BUSH
Peace March Expected to be Among Largest Since War Began
MoveOn.org, National Organization for Women, Labor Unions Mobilize Members
Buses and vans coming from 30 states and 111 Cities
Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson, Reverend Jesse Jackson, Jr., Members of Congress, Military Families, and Soldiers to Speak
NEW YORK, NY -- Americans angered by Bush's plans to escalate the Iraq war will flood the streets of Washington on Saturday, January 27, in a massive national peace march organized by United for Peace and Justice (UFPJ). Marchers will call on Congress to listen to the voters, not Bush, by using its power to end Bush's war and bring the troops home. The last three national marches organized by UFPJ each attracted between 300,000 and 500,000 people.
MoveOn.org has called upon its 3.2 million members to join UFPJ, describing the march as potentially a "turning point for the war" comparable to how "Martin Luther King Jr.'s March on Washington in 1963 was a turning point in the fight for equality and civil rights." The National Organization for Women (N.O.W.) is mobilizing its chapters to participate. Local antiwar groups in cities and towns across the nation are mobilizing.
On Monday, United for Peace and Justice's website received more than 700,000 hits. District Council 37 in NYC, A.F.S.C.M.E.'s largest district council, and New York's United Federation of Teachers, the largest teachers union local in the country, are sending busloads of their members to Washington. Car caravans and peace trains are heading to Washington, DC, from all over the East Coast, Midwest and Southeast. Buses and vans are coming from more than 30 states and 111 cities, including from as far away as Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.
Judith LeBlanc, UFPJ Co-Chairperson, said, "Bush's announcement of plans to escalate the war has backfired. Every day people call or send email to say they will be marching in Washington with United for Peace and Justice on January 27th to call for an end to this war. They are demanding that Congress stand up to Bush. There is no doubt: This is the right action at the right time."
Among those slated to speak at the pre-march rally are Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson, who last year led an antiwar march of thousands, the largest protest in Salt Lake City history; Reverend Jesse Jackson, Jr.; Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH); Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA); Bob Watada, father of Lt. Watada, the first military officer to refuse deployment to Iraq and currently facing court-martial; and active-duty service people.
On Monday, January 29th, UFPJ is sponsoring a Grassroots Lobby Day, in which hundreds will press the case for withdrawal from Iraq directly with their Congressional Representatives and Senators. The weekend's activities will include a Saturday morning interfaith peace service and organizing workshops on Sunday.
On Thursday, January 11, United for Peace and Justice member groups and allies staged more than 1,000 local protests of Bush's escalation of the Iraq war. UFPJ's March on Washington is the next step in the antiwar movement's national surge of opposition to Bush's escalation of the war.
For more information on the January 27th march on Washington and the January 29th Congressional Lobby Day, visit www.unitedforpeace.org. For interviews with United for Peace and Justice spokespeople or local or national organizations mobilizing for the march, contact Hany Khalil at 212-868-5545 or 718-637-7351, press@unitedforpeace.org
WHAT: Massive peace march in Washington, D.C.
WHEN: Saturday, January 27, 2007. Rally begins at 11:00 am. March to kick off 1:00 pm.
WHERE: Rally on National Mall at 3rd Street. UFPJ has applied for a permit for a march route that goes east on Constitution, south on 1st, west on Independence and returning to the Mall to end.
Media professionals planning to cover the march should register for press credentials at www.unitedforpeace.org.
With more than 1,400 member groups under its umbrella, United for Peace and Justice (UFPJ) is the nation's largest grassroots peace and justice coalition. Since its founding in October 2002, UFPJ has spurred hundreds of protests and rallies around the country, including the two largest marches against the Iraq war. http://www.unitedforpeace.org
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/19/2007 10:35:39 PM |
One thing I never agreed with while I was in the military, was that your family comes second. In those days, I was single so it didn't really affect me. To this day, I would never put anything before my family. So no, I would not follow orders blindly from a commanding officer if I know deep down that they conflict with what I believe in.
Better to follow what your heart, mind, and your higher self tell you. I trust myself above what anybody else can tell me.
Well said! Each person goes through his/her own process in making these tough decisions.
Bottom line: You have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror each morning.
~Boots~ | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 10:34:46 AM | Here's an interview with Lt. Ehren Watada with NPR's Terry Gross:
Fresh Air from WHYY, January 25, 2007 · Army Lieutenant Ehren Watada is the first American officer to refuse to deploy to Iraq on the grounds that he thinks the war is illegal. He is joined by one of his lawyers, Eric Seitz, a civillian. Watada is now being court-martialed for his refusal, and for statements he made opposing the war and the Bush administration's leadership..
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7017446 | |
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quebra
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Joined: 1/7/2007
Msg: 267 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 10:50:17 AM | i think that since the "illegal war" defense has been disallowed he will have a much tougher time defending himself. i don't understand why the judge won't allow it (other than for political reasons).
i find lt watada's courage to be inspiring. many soldiers have deserted and returned to face court martial, but he is the only one who has it in him to publicly refuse to combat an illegal war. even generals critical of the war waited until they retired to be critics. after they could do anything about it.
the army isn't some mercenary outfit that an oil-hungy president can send out to do whatever. i don't agree with militarism at all, but i think that lt exemplifies the values that make a good officer.
so enough of this charge of the light brigade bullsh*t. i don't think that the military should blindly go wherever they're told. that's only ever gotten the world into trouble.
support the troops! end the iraq war now! | |
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bobby7
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 268 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 11:11:52 AM | I believe that the officer made the right choice. I also believe that, should he be convicted, he has an excellent chance at winning an appeal..
The grounds for the appeal would be that: The judge has exceeded his authoutity by refusing to allow the "Illegal War" Defense. That is a matter for the Congress, the population, and the Supreme Court. to decide..
The Congress is supposed to reflect the will of the American people, much as the President is!
Neither show any inclination of serving the people!! | |
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bobby7
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 270 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 11:46:20 AM | "These courts do not have the same rules as a civilian court......."
I know that a military tribunal is not run as are civilian courts, Rae Rae, but; Is there not an appeal mechanism built into their system?
Does the Supreme Court have jurisdiction over the military courts? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 12:28:04 PM | No, the Supreme Court Has absolutely no jurisdiction over a military issue. The tribunals are set up to be totally self sufficient. The military does not answer to the people, it answers to the Government, if the Government tells them to go blow sh1t up, that is what they are to do. As a free thinking being they signed on to be property of the United States Government.
There is an appeal process, but good luck with that, no one in the military is willing to step on someone else's toes.......that's if you actually get a different judge.
I don't believe in the war, I think it's self serving and oppressive.
It's a good thing that this guy made the news, because the ultimate punishment for High Treason is death. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 12:58:36 PM | No, the Supreme Court Has absolutely no jurisdiction over a military issue. The tribunals are set up to be totally self sufficient.
Bullshit. That is the same as saying that the military is literally above the law. The UCMJ is a body of laws enacted by Congress (legislative branch) and used by the President, as Commander in Chief (executive branch). So to argue that the judicial branch has "absolutely no jurisdiction" is absurd. Can you cite a legal precedent that supports this claim?
It's a good thing that this guy made the news, because the ultimate punishment for High Treason is death.
Well, then I guess it's a good thing he didn't commit treason, High or otherwise.
Does anybody even bother to research anything before they post so they know what they're talking about? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 1:42:09 PM | UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE The Congressional Code of Military Criminal Law is applicable to all military members worldwide. Who cares about that? The procedures of military courts has nothing to do with what branches of Government have jurisdiction over another....what you said is like saying " The monkey is sleeping, therefore I have the fluffiest marshmallows".
The Supreme Court is to hear cases dealing with Constitutional violations, etc.
You don't think that as property of the United States Government, him speaking out about his reasons for not going to Iraq, is disloyal? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 1:55:40 PM |
You don't think that as property of the United States Government, him speaking out about his reasons for not going to Iraq, is disloyal?
No, because he is not being disloyal to the people of the United States. The ones who sent the military to Iraq are the ones who are disloyal. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 2:11:49 PM | | Well, that is just plain old rhetoric. Oratory jibber jabber. How do you think the tribunal will see it? Who elected the Government that sent the military to Iraq? Who ate all that crap about a disarmament crisis, hook, line, and sinker? I am pleased that the people now see the consequences of being sheep, believing all of the propaganda shovelled down their throats daily. Why do they think the Government banned most media/images coverage in their country? | |
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