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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 2:29:38 PM | UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE The Congressional Code of Military Criminal Law is applicable to all military members worldwide. Who cares about that? The procedures of military courts has nothing to do with what branches of Government have jurisdiction over another....what you said is like saying " The monkey is sleeping, therefore I have the fluffiest marshmallows".
The Supreme Court is to hear cases dealing with Constitutional violations, etc.
Ahh, I see. So you can post false information (the SC has "absolutely no jurisdiction" over military courts) but when somebody else corrects you, then it's irrelevent and "who cares"? Interesting. You made baseless claims about the Supreme Court having no jurisdiction when in fact they do. I was correcting yet another occurrence of somebody posting blatantly false information and trying to pass it off as the truth. If you don't like being corrected, then I would suggest not posting such obviously incorrect statements.
EDIT: I realized after I hit 'post' that I didn't give you the short answer: You made the bogus claim that the SC doesn't have jurisdiction over military affairs. But military courts are defined in the UCMJ, so it would seem that maybe the UCMJ is maybe just a little bit relevent after all, dontcha think?
You don't think that as property of the United States Government, him speaking out about his reasons for not going to Iraq, is disloyal?
Yes, I don't think that. If you use that logic, then disobeying any order is "disloyal" and "treason", and that's simply false. A more correct label would be 'insubordinate'. It's nowhere close to being treason. But don't take my word for it; look it up. It's in the Constitution.
*Trivia for the day: What's the only crime to be defined in the US Constitution? Treason. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 2:59:44 PM | You can spout off about the Administration as much as you'd like. However, the case in point is still that someone paid to take orders said "Nah, I'd rather just not this time." "But the presidency is criminal", you say. That doesn't matter. When he signed up he signed for everything and anything the Army chose for him to do
^^^^^^So with this line of thinking...if the government told you to go out and set everybody named sarah on fire just for laughs...you would yes sir three bags full sir and pick up your napalm with a smile? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 5:30:36 PM |
How do you think the tribunal will see it?
Odds are the Tribunal will find him guilty. That doesn't change the fact of what I said, though.
Who elected the Government that sent the military to Iraq?
In the first term, the courts. In the second term, Diebold. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 6:17:34 PM | UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE was not created by the Supreme Court, and it is not in the constitution.
The Supreme court deals with CONSTITUTIONAL violations.
You can wish it was another way, but we are dealing with reality here.....it's funny to me how Americans know less about their country and it's policies than almost any other country.
Educate yourselves, and get out there and vote! | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 6:26:54 PM | I still believe, as much as I am against this war, that (as an officer) his place is with his men. That commission means that he has been given something that not many men ever get a chance to have.
To go there with them, and to serve in the highest moral terms, would advance his cause far more. One leads from the front, in both a military and moral sense. One can refuse orders that go against one's moral code, and face the consequences of that act. In doing so, perhaps the final goal may be better achieved. If only "gung ho" officers go, those that are unwilling (or morally unwilling) to challenge the orders they are given, then little will change. If officers are there that are willing to challenge orders on moral grounds, then it may change.
It reminds me a bit of a story from WW2. A regular German military unit had been sent into Russia, and had been detailed to assist in the massacre of Jewish civilians there. When the billeted German troops were advised of their orders, only one man stood up and refused.
He quickly was taken from his unit. All of the men in it presumed he had been tried and executed. It was only after the war, when Nuremberg investigators were looking into the defence of "just following orders" , that the truth was discovered.
He had not been executed, nor even tried for refusing such an order. The German military system had realized that any trial of such a man would have called into question not only the orders - but who had given them.
That was something no one wanted. | |
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quebra
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Joined: 1/7/2007
Msg: 282 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 6:53:11 PM | while i support lt. watada's decision to publicly refuse deployment, you make a really good point. if he was in iraq he could order his unit to stand down and take the heat there. this may lead to other officers doing the same thing or at least more public criticism of the war by army brass. imo this would probably end the war sooner than any mass protest.
it reminds me of something i read once about vietnam war draft dodgers. if the goal of the anti-war movement was to end the war in vietnam, why didn't draft aged war protestors accept their draft, join the officer corps, or volunteer and then refuse to fight when they got there? it's not like most soldiers fighting there believed in the war anyway. this would have been more effective than 10 years of useless protest. most of the anti-war movement were young white college kids and most draftees were poor whites and people of colour. the book i this was from treated pacifism in the face of violence as a psychological pathology. the point being, dodging the draft was more about saving one's hide than protesting the war.
***i'm not trying to offend any vietnam vets, draft dodgers or war protestors by mentioning this. it all happened before my time and i'm a canuck. i guess the whole thing is more intellectual and less heartfelt for me cause of that. no offense!***
anyway, maybe that's it with lt. watada. maybe he's just a college kid who's afraid to fight with the soldiers he was commissioned to lead. i wouldn't want to fight in a war either. at any rate, i am glad he's being public and gaining attention for the other soldiers who have refused to fight and are now facing court martial. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/26/2007 7:48:13 PM | UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE was not created by the Supreme Court, and it is not in the constitution.
The Supreme court deals with CONSTITUTIONAL violations.
You can wish it was another way, but we are dealing with reality here.....it's funny to me how Americans know less about their country and it's policies than almost any other country.
Educate yourselves, and get out there and vote!
Sorry to inform you but... the Supreme Court of the US is the final authority in ALL legal matters in the US, not just Constitutional matters. The Supreme Court is empowered by Article 3 of the United States Constitution, all other federal courts are created by Congress.
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
The Supreme Court holds both original and appellate jurisdiction.
As far as the UCMJ goes, after the trial there is access for review to 1) the Court of Criminal Appeals, 2) the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces and 3) the Supreme Court of the US, in that order according to Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 47, Subchapter IX of the US Code.
My guess is that Watada has educated himself on his options far better than some others have. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 5:48:52 AM |
UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE was not created by the Supreme Court, and it is not in the constitution.
No kidding. None of the US Code is in the actual Constitution; it's completely beside the point. Remember your analogy about sleeping monkeys and fluffy marshmellows....?
You seem to have forgotten, so I'll remind you what you said:
No, the Supreme Court Has absolutely no jurisdiction over a military issue. The tribunals are set up to be totally self sufficient. The military does not answer to the people, it answers to the Government, if the Government tells them to go blow sh1t up, that is what they are to do.
As has been shown to you, this is a blatantly incorrect claim. "The government" most definitely includes the judicial branch; to claim otherwise is to display a fundamental ignorance of our system of government. But again, don't take my word for it; google "GUSIK v. SCHILDER, 340 U.S. 128 (1950)". And if for some reason that's not good enough for you, this should do it (don't worry, it's short): http://www.thecre.com/fedlaw/intro3/89919.htm
You can wish it was another way, but we are dealing with reality here.....it's funny to me how Americans know less about their country and it's policies than almost any other country.
If you bothered to look at the two things I recommended above, you might see why I find this comment really funny.
The FACT is that if Lt Watada's Constitutional rights are violated, he can most definitely appeal to the federal court system, up to and including the Supreme Court. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 6:54:22 AM | "if he was in iraq he could order his unit to stand down and take the heat there. this may lead to other officers doing the same thing or at least more public criticism of the war by army brass. imo this would probably end the war sooner than any mass protest."
not a bad idea, very good one actually
If I understood the thread correctly ( that's debatable ha) Bookworm is right about the Supreme Court. Right now the USSC is reviewing the case of Michael New a serviceman who refused to wear a UN baseball cap in Schweinfurt, Germany. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 11:01:44 AM | The guy is a coward. He sure had no problem taking combat pay while in Korea, but god-forbid they actually call him to his duty.
Furthermore, he is a soldier. A soldier gives up some of their rights in order to protect those of the civilians. If he wants to protest, it's his job to wait until the war is over.
I have far more respect for the Army Infantryman who lost an eyeball in Iraq, but said, "While I have different ideas about what constitutes putting troops on the ground, it's not my job to argue about that. I am a soldier. My job is to do what I am told and defend my country." | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 12:21:46 PM | I agree with Montreal Guy,
I dont go along with Bush's War,...just like the Vietnam War,...my thoughts are that we shouldnt go to war, or "Liberate" any counrty,...unless it is the last resort,..and then it still better have the support of the American people.
I have to admit I think the LT should serve his country, and his fellow servicemen, by doing what he is told/ordered to do,...to do otherwise puts him at greater risk of the Prison time he will serve,..and things such as blanket parties, or just out right beatings that may take place from his fellow servicemen.
His place is leading his men,..to the best of his ability.
He doesnt have to like the war,...but he is a member of the United States Armed Service,...and he should act like it.
If he wants to protest, thats his right,...and Im all for having an opinion, and being able to voice it,...but do it in a manner that wont put you,..or your troops in harms way. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 12:24:47 PM |
And i am not trying to bash canada at all but the only reason why they have not been overpowed by some other country(wich would probly only take a matter of hours because no one will stand and make a fight)and they are still free is cause they are right above us and everyone knows we dont raise cowards in the US and we will fight for them even though they dont support us.
While most Americans are good, decent people, it is interesting how some of them so quickly forget the help Canada has given them.
Also, please point out the imminent threat Canada would be facing if we didn't share a border with the US. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 12:49:28 PM | To start it it all thay lied about WMD , now he hasn't the backing of you congress they suddenly find that Iran are supplying these particular weapons to the insurgents isnt it just wonderful how this B-stard Bush "finds" an excuse to prolong this disgusting war.
I praise all the soldiers that serve US, British (thats me by the way), and all others.The US are led by evil **stards who are most probably making a fortune out of this war.
Speak up the American people get rid of the swine, we Brits only have afew months of Blair if he can get his nose out of Bush's a*** | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 1:49:37 PM | | Anyway on topic no i do not support the first army officer to speak out against the war that is his duty to do what he is told and thats all there is to it there is no if and or buts about it , yes he has a mind of his own but he has a duty and if he is crying about the war cause he is scared then he needs to take it like a man and not fight and go to jail plain and simple,if not then he needs to man up and do his duty. | |
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bobby7
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 291 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/27/2007 3:16:46 PM | "Furthermore, he is a soldier. A soldier gives up some of their rights in order to protect those of the civilians. If he wants to protest, it's his job to wait until the war is over."
Another wild statement! Must be a full moon out tonight
Sure, kill a few hundred Iraqis, finish my tour, and then retire from the military..
I tell ya...We have some real bright sparks here!! | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 3:18:14 AM | I've been in the military and I refuse to die for an unjust war waged by our leaders that put their trust in US to carry out THEIR mission. On the same token, before I give my life, I expect my leaders to give me something truly worth dying for. The Iraq war was a lie from the very start and I remember before the war started, I was questioning the Bush administration of why they were taking away our resources and focus on Afghantistan and Al-Quaida. Didn't make any sense to me at the time and remember telling several people that it would turn into another Vietnam because of the utter stupidity shown by our leaders.
I commend any soldier, airman, marine, and seaman to question the orders they are given by their leaders and then make their own judgement on whether they can live with the orders given them. I don't want a military that can't think for themselves but rather one that isn't afraid to question their leaders if something doesn't feel morally right. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 4:55:58 AM | I commend any soldier, airman, marine, and seaman to question the orders they are given by their leaders and then make their own judgement on whether they can live with the orders given them. I don't want a military that can't think for themselves but rather one that isn't afraid to question their leaders if something doesn't feel morally right.
That's why I can't understand the position of those who say serviemen/women should just follow orders. It was wrong when Hussein's troops invaded Kuwait to steal oil, but yet Bush's forces invading Iraq to steal their oil is just a matter of following orders? If American forces could see the evil in the plans of Hussein's forces back then, why is it so inconceivable that they see the evil in the plans laid before them now? Oaths or not, I believe most people join the military to make a difference by fighting for freedom and justice. When they are fighting to enforce tyranny, the reasons for them joining are forfeit. Bush even said it's a volunteer army. Volunteers don't stick with causes that eventually expect them to conduct themselves in a manner which they consider immoral. If they wanted to just kill for profit, they would have joined the mafia. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 5:45:50 AM | | Officers do not get a choice on which orders they are going to obey. A good soldier takes the mission given and carries it out regardless of their personnal beliefs. What this person did was disrespect the uniform so many of us have faught to protect. If you ask me he deserves 6 years in prison then should be sent to Iraq | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 6:16:27 AM |
Officers do not get a choice on which orders they are going to obey.
Not only do they have that choice, they are expected to ensure that only legal orders are carried out.
Before the end of World War II, the Allies suspected such a defense might be employed, and issued the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal, which specifically stated that this was not a valid defense against charges of war crimes.
Thus, under the Nuremberg Principles, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty.
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
The United States military adjusted the Uniform Code of Military Justice after World War II. They included a rule nullifying this defense, essentially stating that American military personnel are allowed to refuse unlawful orders. This defense is still used often, however, reasoning that an unlawful order presents a dilemma from which there is no legal escape. One who refuses an unlawful order will still probably be jailed (and in some countries probably killed), and one who accepts one will probably be jailed.
All US military personnel receive annual training in the Law of Armed Conflict, which delineates lawful and unlawful behaviors during armed conflicts, and is derived from the Geneva Conventions, a subset of international law. This training is designed to ensure that US military personnel are familiar with their military, ethical and legal obligations during wartime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense
You defy such orders at your own risk . The military will decide if you are right or not. That works the other way as well. If you follow such an order, you can still be found guilty of the commission of a crime.
Not an easy job, in a time of war. | |
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quebra
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Joined: 1/7/2007
Msg: 296 | |
| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 10:13:15 AM | yeah the nazi's executed for war crimes were being just good officers and following orders too. that defense was seen for what it was - a crock.
while war can be foggy as far as right/wrong goes, this entire war is wrong and unjust. invading another country by duping the american population while ignoring the demands of the rest of the democratic world is wrong. we are all individuals and must be responsible for the decisions we make and in the military's case, the orders we follow. lt watada, by refusing deployment, is sending a message to the american government and military that he is not an automaton or a puppet that kills for whoever is pulling the strings. this is not cowardly, it is courageous.
slightly off topic, i have a question for all of the war supporting americans in this thread:
during your time on the internet, have you ever actually looked at alternative views about the war, domestically and internationally? i mean fox news and cnn are obviously government mouthpieces, so have you taken the time to see what the rest of the world thinks? or does it even matter to you? the reason i'm asking is because i don't understand how a person can look at all that's happened and still support this war. i'm actually surprised no one's brought up 9/11 in any of the threads because those two events still seem connected to many americans. i'm not asking these questions to insult anyone, i'm genuinely curious. where do you get your info on the war? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 10:14:25 AM | We have to remember that this man joined the Military,..
it was his choice,..he wasnt drafted.
How he handles himself in this situation is how he will be treeted,....if he would just do his job,..even under protest,....he would not be jailed, or faceing 6 years in prison.
If he had been Drafted,...against his will,....his objections would be taken into better consideration,..still possably, and most likely facing dire consequences as he is now,...
But to join,..and now refuse,......puts him in the worst position.
When he joined, he knew that they was a 100% posibility that he would have to go to Iraq, no matter if his position and view on the "War" changed.
Of course he has the ability to refuse "Unlawfull Orders",.......but so far,....not very many people agree that this is, or was, an Unlawfull Order.
Its hard to stand alone in something you believe in,...but he is doing it.
I dont see millions of protestors taking his side,..only a few thousand marched on Washington to protest recently,...if that says anything.
I believe if the Protestors had marched during the warm weather, thousands more would of made the journey to Washington,....
Poor planing didnt even generate 100,000 people,....
Heck,...most any minor outdoor Concert with 4 or 5 bands playing, would garner a couple of hundred thousand people,...
Lets say we get The Dixe Chicks, Neil Young, and other anti war Bands/Singer/Song Writers to play a benifit against the war in Washington,..do you think the powers that be would get the message ?
Yeah, Im sure Washington would get the message.
The problem is,......they (Bush) dont care !
When the powers that be, push their own agenda, dispite what the general consensus thinks,....its time to make changes,...like our founding fathers did. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 1:45:48 PM |
Officers do not get a choice on which orders they are going to obey. A good soldier takes the mission given and carries it out regardless of their personnal beliefs. What this person did was disrespect the uniform so many of us have faught to protect.
So then the only way any army determines who is a good guy and who is a bad guy is by the uniform they wear? If American forces carry out Naziesque orders, they may be bad guys to the world, but they are good guys to the members of their unit? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 1:57:40 PM | | ^^^^^^^^ well its hard for some people to understand what it means to give your word that you will follow all and any orders when you put your name on that peice of paper ,but then again some folks give their word and not stand by it anyway.He joined, thats the fact plain and simple if he didnt wanna fight if he didnt wanna go to iraq then he shouldnt have joined plain and simple,its really not that hard to figure out that he is a coward.Only a coward would back him up or support him ,he has a right to speak his mind but he gave his word that he will follow orders, and a man with out his word is better off dead anyway. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/28/2007 2:02:50 PM | well its hard for some people to understand what it means to give your word that you will follow all and any orders when you put your name on that peice of paper ,but then again some folks give their word and not stand by it anyway.
No it's not hard to understand. But if you are just going to follow orders without following your conscience, then you have to accept that some are going to consider you a bad guy. Just like the Nazis... they were just following orders, didn't make them any less bad guys. | |
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