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 Author Thread: Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 351
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History
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/5/2007 11:45:32 PM

just b/c Susan Sarandon said 600K doesn't make it accurate.

That would be correct if it were just Sarandon saying it. There's another thread here on that very subject. The conclusion was that 600K is the most likely estimate, and the most liberal estimates are actually higher. I can't remember the thread title, but it is something along the lines of "Iraqi death toll."

The guy should and will be courtmartialed

Agreed. Since the illegal war argument is being disallowed, he will be punished; it's just a question of how severe. If the illegal war argument were allowed, though, imagine the larger ramifications! Perhaps Watada is not a good officer, but I argue the bigger picture: that he is a conscientious human being following his personal principles, to jail if necessary.

The funny thing is that if he were deployed to combat in Afghanistan, no one would be having this discussion. Certainly no one would be calling him a coward...
 bobby7

Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 352
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 5:09:22 AM
What I find amazing is that these "service men", as they like to be called, are making fools of themselves, much the same as Bush did..

First it was 911..(nope, not Iraq..BinLaden!) Then, WMD..(Nope, none there)

Then Al Queada..(Nope, not while Saddam was alive)..

The US..(well, Bush), invaded Iraq without the authorization of the UN, and against the advice of his top generals, and the CIA..(he as warned that it would be a quagmire, just like Vietnam)..

Guess why??

He says, as do some of these "service guys" that Iraq was violating the terms set down by the UN..(pretty funny, when you can see that Bush doesn't give a rat's ass about the UN, or about world opinion..)

The war is not only illegal, it is immoral, and that is why protests are cropping up all over..

Lt.Watada made the right decision, and thousands are following his lead..The bully is getting his nose smacked..and it looks good on him...
 NEW_Heart

Joined: 10/8/2006
Msg: 353
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 11:47:08 AM
I hope the US militray prosecutes this person to the fullest extent of the law.
He has his opinion(s), but he should have thought things out a little more before he signed the contract.
The military sends you where they need you, not where you wanna go. If he was truly an objector, either he should have never joined up in the first place (he joined shortly after 9/11 I believe) and admitted that "I knew I would have to follow orders -- sometimes without rhyme or reason. I would have to be obedient and respectful to authority. Never did I believe I would have to follow orders that were contrary to my moral beliefs and illegal"

How does an act of the UN, with several dozen countries involved be an illegal thing?!! Good grief, people need to think more and stop reacting as the wind blows.
 soulman15

Joined: 5/22/2006
Msg: 354
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 12:01:09 PM
When a person joins the Army, they lose the ability to proffessionally deside what is and is not a good or moral war. They freely give up the right to protest any war. Soldiers are under the command of a civilian authority, this is known when they take thier oath. The good Lt. needs to deside whether he is a soldier or not. Is standing on his principles and must pay the price for knowingly violating regulations. It is only fair to all who came before him and will come after him that he pay the price for his views. To some he will be a villan to others he will be considered a coward, I will reserve my opinion until I know how he takes his punishment. This Lt. knew what the punishment was for his actions, if he stands up like a man I will honor what he is standing for, but if he crys and whines, I will forever know he was a coward.
 bobby7

Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 355
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 12:11:46 PM
"How does an act of the UN, with several dozen countries involved be an illegal thing?!! Good grief, people need to think more and stop reacting as the wind blows. "

You are joking, of course?! Or, just asleep at the wheel??

Read my lips!! GWB said, in essence..Screw the UN..Who needs them? The UN is useless..God tells me what to do, and, I am the "Decider"!!

Cite the nations that are backing the US..(besides Britain, of course) and cite where the UN has sanctioned this "WAR"..

Didn't think so..But, nice try!! (though)
 Michael1010

Joined: 9/26/2006
Msg: 356
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 12:32:29 PM
This so stupid, the fellow volunteered, he refused to go to war when called on, case closed, go to jail for a long time. A soldier does not get to pick and chose his missions. Ever.
 pitdogK9P

Joined: 11/8/2005
Msg: 357
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 12:53:10 PM
This is a general letter to all who are interested in the war, not related to a service man, the media in general and who have not "gone ro see the elephant" (civil war terminology for going to the battle front). I suggest that you go to the following site www.strykernews.com . Soldiers and imbedded reporters reporting from Iraq do the writing not the correspondents who can't push themslves away from the bar long enough to go outside the "Green Zone". The Tacoma News Tribune, home of the 1st Stryker Brigade, 3rd Brigade 2nd Infantry SBCT,
along with the Stryker Brigade News which covers all Stryker Units will give you an idea of what is really going on there. Lt Watada was/is a serviceman in this unit and what he did was unconscionable (sp). He had already done one tour in Iraq with this unit. When it becomes time to do it again, he bails. Once you sign on the line your soul belongs to God but your ass belongs to the military and you do what they tell you to do. Why does a 67 year old accountant have an opinion? ...because he has a dog in the hunt! My 20 year old son is a specialist w/ 5th Battalion 20th Infantry HHC, with a history dating back to the civil war, who is now in beautiful downtown Baghdad having recently arrived to rejoin the 3/2 after a command performance in Mosul. His question this week to friends and family was should I re-up now and go to school for a different mos or stay with my unit or try to get to Fort Drum. His options are open. He has been told that he has to make the choices with out influence so he never looks back and says "Gee, I wish I had...". As so many of us are wont to do.
Personally my belief is that all war is wrong not just this one. However, sometimes wars are necessary. I prefer not to have people blow up portions of my country, or spit in my face or a dozen other things w/o consequence. The older I get the thinner my layer of civilization becomes but my patience gets better. with that auf Wiedersehen from frozen Syracuse NY
Love and Prayers
pitdogK9P
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 358
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 2:01:37 PM

(Msg. 357) pitdogK9P wrote:
I suggest that you go to the following site www.strykernews.com. Soldiers and imbedded reporters reporting from Iraq do the writing not the correspondents who can't push themslves away from the bar long enough to go outside the "Green Zone".
I doubt that anyone will see "totally objective" news reported on that site.

The few minutes I was on there it was apparent to me that it is a site that would never consider printing information informing the soldiers that there are support groups out there for them and lawyers who will assist them when they do show a conscience and object to being in Iraq and fighting an "illegal" war.

It appears to also be a site that would never in a million years tell the soldiers that once they do get injured and / or maimed (while fighting in this illegal war) that their veterens medical benefits basically become nothing but a physical exam from year to year because the same president that sent them into the mess to begin with also comfortably sat in his big chair in Washington and cut Veteran's benefits down to almost a bare cob.

Would this site consider telling the soldiers that when they come back wounded and maimed and no longer able to appropriately dodge bullets and bombs ... how to support themselves and their families? Does it tell them that most of them will be destined to live on "Welfare and Food Stamps"? Huh? No ... I didn't think so.

I think before we entice these young men and women to "sign on such a dotted line", that they ought to be told those things as well.

And if Watada is getting the "shaft" (which I think he is) for objecting to fight in an illegal war ... then maybe it's time for some legislation that makes it legal to object to fighting in an illegal war that an illegal president started in an illegal act.

JMO.



And by the way, my daughter was there.

She reports that there are hundreds of soldiers who do object to the illegal war both here before deployment and after they arrive in Iraq. They are not treated well if they make their feelings known through the appropriate process, so they don't bother to file the paper work. Her evenings as an officer were mostly taken up with trying to counsel these young people ... some of whom she ended up talking out of suicide.

Imagine the hopelessness of knowing you are doing something against your conscience and it bothers you so badly you just want to die ... and if you do voice your opposition, you will most likely die as well ... but at the hands of your own comrads.

What's that you say? That would never happen? Ever heard of "friendly fire"?

Would www.strykernews.com ever print the names or the stories of the soldiers who have committed suicide because they just couldn't bear to go against their conscience because of this war? No ... I didn't think so.

Our president turns his head and rolls over every night falling soundly asleep with not one thought of "collateral damage" and the lives being wasted in his illegal war.



Good luck to your son and the choices he makes ... may his conscience be with him.
 mgm8822

Joined: 2/24/2005
Msg: 359
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 2:22:57 PM
i just wanted to say that was a very well thought out posting by cotter. if you read "a peoples history" by zinn, he describes how in all wars in the US, conscientous objectors have been ridiculed, and at times just flat- out assaulted.

also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the military oath to the CONSTITUTON, and not the president?
 hunterbig10

Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 360
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 2:45:12 PM
The president is the comander and chief so if he gives you an order you follow it plain and simple.
 FredHH

Joined: 1/24/2007
Msg: 361
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 2:47:19 PM
The oath also includes a line about obeying all of the people who have authority over you, which by definition includes the Commander in Chief of the armed forces.

So.. the oath does include an implied promise to obey the orders of the President. It just doesn't expect any single officer to need to have the President himself sign each order he receives.

Its called "chain of command"

President (Commander in Chief)
Secretary of Defense
Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff
General/Admiral in charge of the branch of service
Main area commander (still a 2 or 3 star at least)
....\
\
and on down eventually: (assuming Army/marines)
Company Commander
LT in charge of the platoon
Platoon Sgt
Squad leader
Grunt

ANY order given by any intermediary and passed down is going to be a result of a need to follow the orders of someone higher up... and that means eventually the President had something to do with it, however indirectly.
 bobby7

Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 362
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 5:02:56 PM
"When a person joins the Army, they lose the ability to professionally decide what is and is not a good or moral war. They freely give up the right to protest any war. Soldiers are under the command of a civilian authority,"

No!! You are wrong!! Every situation is fluid..If I enlisted,and the rules/objectives changed..-Before my very eyes!! I have the RIGHT to question..Call me a traitor, if you will.I don't care! My conscience dictates what my actions are!!

If the Lt decided that what his superiors' decision was wrong!!! He did what was necessary!!
 Michael1010

Joined: 9/26/2006
Msg: 363
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 5:21:07 PM
Exactly bobby. And now he must face the consequences of his actions, which in all likely hood is a few years in jail.
 hunterbig10

Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 364
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 6:10:14 PM
Thats the whole deal he is gonna get time in jail so who really cares and its another coward off the front lines at least now he wont get anyone killed because he is to busy lookin out for his own hide.
 stone429

Joined: 11/5/2006
Msg: 365
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/6/2007 7:34:39 PM
When the government pays for your school during your years of ROTC and you leave with a commission and debt free you are obligated to give up 6 - 8 years of your life in service of your country. You know this because you have had multiple classes on this and it is reviewed with you at least once a year. Whether you agree with the war in Iraq or not is irrevilent, you made a committement. Should you get to stay home after one tour so my son or someone else's daughter has to pull another tour for you? Should my child be able to deny his orders and place your child or your life in danger? I notice that you state IF you served - so since you haven't served, you do not know what it is like to serve in an unpopular action (that's an undeclared war where everyone is dying but nobody has the balls to call it a war) where singers, songwriters, and everybody except the warriors feel the need to speak out from what - not experience but opinion. It is heart wrenching to think that men you have held while they are dying and people with limbs shot off will always be remembered as dupes in an action you did not approve of. Please spare us bobby of what you would have done because you never took the big step of serving in the first place. To all the our uniformed personnel who stand on the pointed end tonight - may peace come quickly, and may your tour of duty find you in a better place next year.
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 366
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 6:29:13 AM

(Msg. 365) stone429 wrote:
You know this because you have had multiple classes on this and it is reviewed with you at least once a year. Whether you agree with the war in Iraq or not is irrevilent, you made a committement.
Do they also review the points I made in Msg. 358?

Do they tell these future "warriors" ...

*That once they do get injured and / or maimed that their veterans medical benefits basically become nothing but a physical exam from year to year because the same president that sent them into the mess to begin with also comfortably sat in his big chair in Washington and cut Veteran's benefits down to almost a bare cob?

*When they come back wounded and / or maimed and no longer able to appropriately dodge bullets and bombs ... how to support themselves and their families?

*If they should get wounded and / or maimed that most of them will be destined to live on "Welfare and Food Stamps"?

Huh? No ... I didn't think so.

I think those things should be made part of the yearly review as well.


(Msg. 365) stone429 also wrote:
... where singers, songwriters, and everybody except the warriors feel the need to speak out from what - not experience but opinion.
Soooo ... unless a person dons a uniform, they have no right to:

*have an opinion
*be against killing innocents
*be opposed to "war"
*be opposed to the (back then) mandatory drafting of ...
... their healthiest family members, fellow class mates, friends and neighbors

but are expected to:

*support the criminal administration who started it
*send their loved ones off to be ...
... killed, maimed, mutilated
*pay for it

And by the way ... there were (back then) and are today ... veteran "warriors" speaking out against these illegal killing sprees. They marched with us against the war back then and are marching with us against this war as well.


(Msg. 365) stone429 also wrote:
It is heart wrenching to think that men you have held while they are dying and people with limbs shot off will always be remembered as dupes in an action you did not approve of.
That is spot on WRONG.

I do not see any person who got sucked into this action or any other action as a "dupe", and have never treated any as such.

http://www.thankyoult.org/content/view/1/5/


About Lt. Ehren Watada

1st Lt. Ehren Watada, 28, was born and raised in Honolulu, Hawai`i. He was an exemplary Eagle Scout by age 15.

Lt. Watada worked while attending Hawai`i Pacific University, where he earned a degree in Finance and graduated magna cum laude in 2003. He received no financial assistance from the Army for his education.

Friends and family consider him a born leader and were not surprised by his determination to pursue a military career immediately upon graduation in a post 9/11 era. He enlisted in the Army as an officer candidate and was stationed in Korea from late 2004 to early 2005, where his superior officers evaluated and described him as "Exemplary," with "Unlimited Potential" and "Likes challenges and moves toward the fight."

In early 2005, Lt. Watada was re-assigned from Korea to Ft. Lewis, Washington. Knowing that he would be expected to lead his soldiers into Iraq, he undertook to learn all that he could about the war and what he and those he commanded would likely face. Lt. Watada read widely and researched how and why the Iraq War began and the evidence that was presented to convince the U.S. Congress to approve the war. After a year of study and reflection, Lt. Watada came to the courageous decision to refuse deployment to Iraq.

Lt. Watada's parents have both expressed their support for their son's actions and have traveled the country to speak on his behalf His mother, Carolyn Ho of Kaneohe, Hawai`i, is a high school guidance counselor. His father, Bob Watada of Honolulu, Hawai`i is the former Executive Director of the State Campaign Spending Commission of Hawai`i.

Lt. Watada is assigned to administrative duty at Ft. Lewis pending his court martial on February 5, 2007.




It is not cowardly to stand up against immoral actions and follow your conscience.

In the world we live in today ... that takes guts.
 Eihwaz

Joined: 5/27/2004
Msg: 367
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History
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 10:52:45 AM
An interesting read...



February 7, 2007

An Open Letter to America's Soldiers from the Ranks
The Looming Shadow of Nuremberg
By TONY SWINDELL

Crimes Listed by the Nuremberg Standard of 1947: a war of aggression,
or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for its
accomplishment; murder or ill-treatment of civilian populations in
occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war;
plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of cities,
towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;
crimes against humanity such as murder, extermination, enslavement,
deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian
population, before or during the war.

Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Fallujah, the rape of Lebanon, the concentration
camps in the West Bank and Gaza, clandestine prisons, the Iraq embargo
of the 1990s, Halliburton, and Black Water. There are more, but these
will suffice to compare against the Nuremberg Standard. It will not be
a difficult task. For example, start with Halliburton and the plunder
of public (American taxpayers') property.

How many of you recognize the name of Army Warrant Officer Hugh
Thompson, Jr.?

I do because he and I stood on and flew over the same ground nearly 40
years ago. Like him, I left a little blood and a lot of sweat in a
Godforsaken place halfway around the world, earning four battle stars
in 11 months. Plus some cheap tin and ribbon medals made even cheaper
by the good friends who never came home with me. Thompson did, too.

Hugh was a helicopter pilot who aimed his guns at American soldiers--
members of my brigade -- to keep them from slaughtering civilians in
the Vietnamese hamlet of My Lai 4. Spotting massacred civilians around
My Lai, Thompson and his two-man crew landed beside wounded civilians
to give medical help as the infantry company commander and others
present kept shooting the wounded. Thompson ordered his crew to open
fire if the slaughter continued. No more civilians were shot.

Thompson's story is critical because the march to a nuclear war
against Iran has begun, and YOU will the ones carrying it out. There
is no way to effectively "confront" Iran except with tactical nuclear
weapons. Tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children will
die outright or suffer lingering deaths from horrible radiation
sicknesses. It will be murder, pure and simple. Look at the suffering
around you and multiply it by hundreds.

No doubt you know that back home, 80 per cent of the American people
voted in the last election to end the Iraq debacle, but no one in
Washington listened. Our two-faced media watchdogs are a gaggle of
neocon propaganda peddlers, corporate whores and New World Order
shills who helped orchestrate and cheerlead the slaughter, and they
sneer at your patriotism behind your backs.

Everything you've been told about Iraq is a pack of lies, and the
powers that be seem to think we're all stupid enough to be conned
again. We can't trust our elected representatives to carry out the
will of the people. They're been bought and sold, and have just proven
it. For all practical purposes, a coup d'etat has taken place.

Meanwhile, soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have problems of their own
just staying alive. After four years, why doesn't everyone have the
equipment and armored vehicles needed? The most cynical thing our
government can do is to send its soldiers into combat with defective
weapons or lacking critical equipment. To me, actions speak a lot
louder than words. Just ask the folks who lost everything to Hurricane
Katrina down along the Gulf Coast.

Keep in mind that defense contractors like Halliburton are raking in
billions, and the 100-grand-per-year hired guns and their employers
certainly aren't lacking anything they need. Take a close look at
their equipment. Whether you realize it or not, these hired guns are
making your job a lot harder by terrorizing and humiliating the Iraqi
population, accountable to no one. I've seen it all before, only with
more humidity and less sand.

Let me tell you a little secret about the plan to parcel you out in
small groups and isolate you in Iraqi units. This was tried in Vietnam
with disastrous results, with adjectives like suicidal. And that was
before we had really gotten serious about killing people over there.
How can you tell who the enemy is? Do you speak the Iraqi language and
understand the culture? That friendly Iraqi kid or little girl in a
burka may be taking reams of mental notes about your unit strength,
equipment, and movement patterns to relay to their big brothers with
the IEDs, RPGs and AKs. They may even be humping bags of ammo or
ordnance and running commo for insurgents.

Count your fingers for the number of new insurgents every dead
civilian creates. Rape a girl and murder her family to cover it up,
and you'll need a computer. Don't forget to factor in the damage from
50,000 armed-to-the-teeth mercenaries, many of whom not only don't
speak Iraqi, they don't even speak English. Always remember that none
of these people invited you there to blow their country apart. Imagine
how you'd feel if some friendly invaders and a bunch of their salaried
thugs had wasted New York City and killed the entire population.

I can tell you from experience that it's impossible to win any kind of
guerilla war without the support of the population and while
soldiering from a defensive position. Have your missions turned from
search and clear to search and avoid like ours did? Do you have a
mentality of "the day is yours, the night is theirs"? If that's true,
the situation has disintegrated into a war of attrition and you've
lost.

Put aside from the moral conundrum of nuking a non-nuke country that
has signed the non-proliferation treaty to keep that country from
maybe getting nukes of its own, and all on behalf of another country
that already has hundreds of nukes and refuses to sign any such
treaties. An attack on Iran means you will be trapped between a rock
and a hard place. Make no mistake: the real reason for the "surge"
into Bagdad is to reinforce security around the laptop warriors and
bureaucrats in the Green Zone. You'll find yourselves in the curious
position of playing bodyguard for the hired guns. How ironic will that
be?

Think about your families and loved ones. A large number of you are
serving multiple tours, with many involuntarily extended. For the
latter, your country has violated the contract it signed with you, but
just try breaking your end of it. Meanwhile, military families suffer
at home, a significant number of you will not have jobs to return to,
and unbelievably, your government is doing its best to slash or delay
veteran's benefits. For those of you who come home wounded, it will
take years to get a VA disability claim processed if you succeed at
all.

Are your families are living near the poverty level? Look at how many
payday loan shark operations hover like vultures around stateside
military posts. The bottom line is that you and your loved ones are
suffering all the blood and material sacrifices while White House and
Congressional cronies get unspeakably rich. And, you're being asked to
do it over and over again by people who are willing to spill every
drop of your blood while making sure their own children avoid wearing
a uniform.

To say that combat veterans--or anyone -- who oppose these wars are
against you is an outright lie. We would stand shoulder-to-shoulder
with you to defend our country and protect our Constitution. We want
Osama bin Laden and his cohorts dead as much as you do. Our hearts
break when another coffin comes home, or a young man or woman returns
physically or psychologically crippled. We have personally seen and
felt this pain for 30 years or more. We are outraged that it's
happening all over again, and for what?

Our anger is directed at the people who have cynically exploited your
patriotism and love of America, people who seem to owe their
allegiance to another country, people who have been using our
Constitution as toilet paper. Turn your bullshit detectors up to full
volume like we have. Open your eyes and discover what true courage is.
It's not just facing another man in combat, it's also standing up for
what's right.

Be forewarned and forearmed: the dogs of war never confront a man's
intellectual or moral compass, but only his body and his emotions.
They count on your blind obedience to authority. These people are not
armed with superior knowledge or competence. They have nothing but a
monopoly on violence and coercion, and a talent for exploiting our
ignorance and timidity. All of us were born free men and women, and
it's time to once again begin living like we are. It's time to show
the government where real strength of the American people lies.

The bottom line is, if you don't think an ordinary soldier like
yourself can do anything about the situation, you're dead wrong.
Remember the story of Hugh Thompson. When the same dogs of war start
barking, you start biting like he did. You do it with two simple
questions to each officer and NCO, and ask it repeatedly: "With all
due respect, sir, why are we still here and when are we going home?"

You don't give up your Constitutional rights when you put on the
uniform, because the defense of the Constitution is at the core of
your solemn oath to serve. Anyone who orders you to give up your
morality and humanity should be hung. My fervent prayer is that a
brigade of Hugh Thompsons like you will rise up to put a halt to this
coming atrocity.

Tony Swindell can be reached at: phoenixtexoma@550access.com
 myfirstlove

Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 368
Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 4:18:31 PM
Mis-trial is the word of the day? I am so glad they have seen the light, drain ACLU for every penny they have.

Now I see that two members of the press have been subpoenaed to testify against the Lt. And if they don't they could face 6 months in jail and a $500.00 fine. Will ACLU represent them too? I hope so.

Sounds like a very smart move by the prosecutor.

 shortandsweet57

Joined: 12/3/2006
Msg: 369
view profile
History
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 4:23:57 PM
The man isn't refusing to fight. He said he would go to Afganastan, but believes the Iraq invasion to be illegal. And I agree.
 FredHH

Joined: 1/24/2007
Msg: 370
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History
Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 5:38:33 PM
Technicly the Iraq invasion was not illegal.

It may have been done for the wrong reason...

The CEASE FIRE from the 1990/91 Gulf War was repeatedlyviolated, and it was still getting violated by Iraq. That alone made the resuming of hostilities appropriate under international law. Basicly ever time Iraq fired at a US aircraft, they invited invasion.

We typically responded to having the aircraft fired upon by taking out the missile launchers. Thats not a violation of the cease fire, since they fired first, but since they fiored first we had no obligation to stop at taking out the missile launchers.

So, the suspicion of WMD simply was the last straw in a long string of provocations, and the cease fire was considered void.

**************

The only reason we still have troops there is to trry to help the country become stable again. I really don't caer if the Shias and Sunis shoot each other and blow each other up. (which is where most of the violence over there really is taking place)

So I don't care if we just pull our troops out.

However, it seems Bush doesn't want the Muslims to be shooting each other...

Pulling out and letting them have at each other would result in essentially the same thing as happened to Mogadishu (SP) They're just starting to get civilized again. We pulled out how long ago?
 Deleted_Jenna

Joined: 11/29/2006
Msg: 371
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 5:45:43 PM
i think he obviously knows something that ppl here dont
 myfirstlove

Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 372
Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 5:49:40 PM
Sorry here is your references

Mistrial in war objector case - Military Affairs - MSNBC.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17032609/

The Press and the Watada Trial - Yahoo! News
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20070123/cm_thenation/20070205cooper
 sassymiss

Joined: 5/7/2006
Msg: 373
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Do Not Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 6:51:33 PM
Conscientious Objectors do not believe in war and they do not join any Military Service or pick what war they want to fight. (Cassius Clay) Mohammad Ali was one and he was stripped of his Championship belt. He did it on the grounds of his faith. Mistrial for Watada.
 Bookworm70

Joined: 11/14/2004
Msg: 374
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Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 2/7/2007 7:28:20 PM
In msg #370, Fredhh said:

The CEASE FIRE from the 1990/91 Gulf War was repeatedlyviolated, and it was still getting violated by Iraq. That alone made the resuming of hostilities appropriate under international law. Basicly ever time Iraq fired at a US aircraft, they invited invasion.

We typically responded to having the aircraft fired upon by taking out the missile launchers. Thats not a violation of the cease fire, since they fired first, but since they fiored first we had no obligation to stop at taking out the missile launchers.

So, the suspicion of WMD simply was the last straw in a long string of provocations, and the cease fire was considered void.


Please cite which UN resolution authorized the no-fly zones in Iraq. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to; the NFZ's were a unilateral decision made by the US, not by the UN. That's why it wasn't used to justify the invasion of Iraq in the run-up to the war. So this argument is bogus.

The war was approved by Congress, so some have argued that the war was legal that way (I used to believe that too). There's just one problem with that.... The United States Constitution:

U.S. Constitution, Article VI:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

-http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html

Since the U.S. is a member of the U.N., according to our own Constitution we are legally bound to follow the decisions of the UN. Since the UN did not, in fact, authorize the 2003 invasion, the Iraq War is illegal.
 texasroadwarrior

Joined: 8/4/2006
Msg: 375
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Butter Bar Is Toast
Posted: 2/8/2007 2:43:57 AM
He hasn't got a leg to stand on. He's on trial for missing movement. Movement orders cannot be illegal. He can't use as a defence that he was refusing illegal orders because a movement order is always legal.

Even if he's ordered to move and then to smash baby skulls. He can refuse the second order and use as a defense that the baby skull crushing would be illegal.

The reason a mistrial was called is because he realised that he admitted earlier to missing movement and he has no defense that would be allowed in his trial to explain it away.

He's screwed.

I bet he would have refused orders to Afghanistan as well, but fortunatley we don't get made to our order movement orders.

Bye bye LT. Keep whistling we'll find you lol.
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