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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:41:19 PM | Negative....when one enlists into the military, just as I did this past May, you take an oath to "obey the orders of the President of the United States". If one feels that they cannot fulfill this obligation, then they should not enlist in the first place. Many today feel that the military is a charity ward with their enlistment bonuses, money for college and other benefits, but it does come with a cost: potential military service. Unfortunately many want to take the money and run instead of doing their sworn duty. It is even more unfortunate that many today wish to pick and choose which wars they will fight in, whether "just or unjust", or depending which political party is in power. Too bad we cannot put political differences aside,as the "Greatest Generation" did in World War II, when ALL Americans (republicans and democrats) rallied behind the flag and supported the war effort. Perhaps our generation will be referred to as the "Spoiled Generation" by historians in the future...that is if our country still exists years from now, as I am starting to wonder with our lack of patriotism and self-serving attitudes.
Pvt. Thomas Noell
NC Army National Guard | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:43:38 PM |
If he is a coward, then why did he not simply desert, and cross the border to Canada, or Mexico, or wherever? Why is he instead taking a stand and going to a trial he knows he is very likely to lose?
very true... and considering the criminal behavior of the higherups in the US military these days; secret torture camps, "accidental deaths" of prisoners while being interrogated and other things; I'd say he's braver for what he's doing than soldiers who give in to the external pressure and just go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Over there, most soldiers make it with no problems. Here, he marked himself for a shlitstorm that won't be over for years...
He knew they'd prosecute. He knew he'd face consequences. Over there, the odds were against his getting wounded. Here, he knew he was going to catch hell.
I'll be NONE of you guys would have the guts to do what he's doing...
I'm not saying it doesn't take alot of guts to go to war, either; but when the whole world is against you and you decide to do the right thing; I think that takes more courage. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:43:55 PM |
Have you even read what he's based his decision on?
(hint ....wasn't "the news")
Yep. I read his interview with Kevin Sites.
I understand what he has claimed. I gave it a couple of days thought, read many of the links here on this thread, and after all that concluded that he is full of it.
I can assure you I did my homework. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:46:46 PM | I wouldn't call anyone willing to face a possible six years in prison, and probably a lifetime of blocked avenues afterwards due to that conviction, a coward.
How about an opportunist? He got his college education paid for. In fact, with all of the coverage he can probably get a decent job as an activist after he gets out. The time in jail will become currency he can spend to prove that he is a legitimate antiwar activist too. Its a great deal for him.
I bet he writes a book and sells a movie deal while in jail.
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:54:15 PM | If we used today's standards (liberal media-hyped death toll) in the wars and conflicts in our nations history, the U.S military would have:
withdrawn from the American Revolution after Valley Forge, and we would still be living under colonial, British rule.
allowed the Confederacy to claim victory after the battle of First Manassas, thus millions of blacks would remain in bondage and our country divided.
cut and run after 2400 Americans died at Pearl Harbor on one December morning, Japan and Germany would be allowed to continue their genocide and war crimes with tens of millions more slaughtered and enslaved in tyranny.
Thank God, our country did not "cut and run" in the past and hopefully will stay the course to ensure victory in Iraq...otherwise 3000 of our best men and women DIED FOR NOTHING!
Pvt. Thomas Noell
NC Army National Guard | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:58:57 PM |
If we used today's standards (liberal media-hyped death toll) in the wars and conflicts in our nations history, the U.S military would have:
withdrawn from the American Revolution after Valley Forge, and we would still be living under colonial, British rule.
allowed the Confederacy to claim victory after the battle of First Manassas, thus millions of blacks would remain in bondage and our country divided.
cut and run after 2400 Americans died at Pearl Harbor on one December morning, Japan and Germany would be allowed to continue their genocide and war crimes with tens of millions more slaughtered and enslaved in tyranny.
Thank God, our country did not "cut and run" in the past and hopefully will stay the course to ensure victory in Iraq...otherwise 3000 of our best men and women DIED FOR NOTHING!
Pvt. Thomas Noell
NC Army National Guard
Do you have a point relating to this thread? This is all off-topic.
By the way, I don't know if you heard, but the administration isn't into "staying the course" anymore. According to Bush (now), they never were..... | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 3:59:08 PM |
Thank God, our country did not "cut and run" in the past and hopefully will stay the course to ensure victory in Iraq...otherwise 3000 of our best men and women DIED FOR NOTHING!
I thank you for your service to our country, but I reserve the right to oppose the war.
Regarding your post, though...
How about the 58,000 that died for nothing in Viet Nam? only to have the US government start another war thirty years later for no other reason than to milk the US treasury and try unsuccessfully get new oil reserves for the multi-national oil companies?
It depends on what you consider guts, doesn't it? Because to me, what he is doing isn't brave. Its wrong. Its cowardly. Its harmful to the service.
Maybe he feels he has a higher duty to humanity and his individual conscience than the service. Should the service be higher in our personal hierarchy than all the rest of humanity? .... and the values we're taught from birth?
What is a nation but a social construct of individuals? ... and those don't count?
Who appointed Bush "God"... Oh wait... don't tell me: The US Supreme Court, THAT'S who.
The military is supposed to protect citizens, not go bomb innocent people in other countries so they can get money from the government to build and use more weapons. The US government is clearly no better than a bunch of murderers in our foreign policy. Why should he feel honor or duty bound to keep a promise to them?
Are they going to keep promises to HIM?
They lie to anyone who joins anyway to get that "oath" out of them. What does it mean?
Squat.
George Washington was an officer in the British Army. It was men under his command who are said to have committed atrocities against the French that started the French-Indian war. Do you think HE didn't swear an oath to King George's England to become an officer?
How about the training he got?
He was not loyal to the death toward the British crown.
According to your definition, he's a coward too. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:22:02 PM | I'll bet NONE of you guys would have the guts to do what he's doing...
I'll stand by Strangebloom, personally knowing a fair number of guys currently serving or have recently served in Iraq.
The brave ones, they're the ones that go *despite* knowing the risks and hardship they face, during - and after serving.
You haven't have no idea of the condition that many of these men return home in, their nerves are fried, they can't sleep for nightmares. Recovering from significant physical and emotional trauma, soldiers are depressed, they have anxiety problems, they can't sleep. And some of them are asked to return after a very short break, once they are deemed 'fit for duty' - because there is a shortage of experienced men for battle in hot spots. Most men are in it for their full two years - plus.
This is one of the most fatiguing war situations for the soldier on the ground, since 'Nam.
I knew a fair number of 'Nam vets, too. I saw their drug and drinking problems, their broken marriages, their inability to feel 'normal' again. Heard of their suicides, and 'disappearance'm when they dropped out of life, unable to cope. Uncle did basically nothing for these soldiers, after they returned.
See? The thing is, I'm helping a few recover from this battle stress, those who returned from Iraq in the last two years, after their mandatory two years on duty. They feel alienated within their families and friends, they have no stress reserves, they get sick easily - and their employers don't seem to give two sh*ts. They are flat-lined, chronically down and unable to enjoy life. What I hear most: " I want to feel like I am home and back to normal, instead, I keep waiting for bad to happen."
The dire situation: that the US DOD has very little programmatic help for the returning soldier with acute and chronic stress reaction. Its left to the community, to overworked, underfunded public services to pick up the tab.
Buncha soldiers told me: this debriefing and supposed help for mental duress - its a joke!"
This Lt will never know that kind of active duty battle stress. He will receive his punishment, in a warm cell. I doubt they will make him do hard time. The worst that can be said is that he will be in minor isolation. He will have his books to read, men to talk to, idle hours spent waiting his release. I, too, personally doubt he will suffer much in his career. Too many are willing to make him into the hero that he is not.
The Lt is a pawn, an example of what the military can never afford: the soldier to determine whether or not the rationale, behind a war, or an order meets his criteria for ethical or legal legitimacy. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:24:25 PM |
George Washington was an officer in the British Army. It was men under his command who are said to have committed atrocities against the French that started the French-Indian war. Do you think HE didn't swear an oath to King George's England to become an officer?
How about the training he got?
He was not loyal to the death toward the British crown.
According to your definition, he's a coward too.
Apples and oranges... but I will play.
When the LT frees Hawaii from US rule and becomes its first president, I will take back my cowardly comment about him.
I mean come on... Do you think Washington or any of the founding fathers were actually safer after revolting against British rule? Many of them lost their wealth, their lands, and their lives. Others were jailed. Here is a link:
http://www.quiltbus.com/freedom.htm
There is NO comparison really. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:26:40 PM |
When the LT frees Hawaii from US rule and becomes its first president, I will take back my cowardly comment about him.
So... it wasn't the LT breaking his word that was immoral... it was not becoming president?
Commmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmme on!!!
Please explain the logic of your remark.
LT broke his oath, but so did Washington. So they did the same thing. Why aren't you saying Washington was a coward? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:27:56 PM | Appologies for the off-topic rant. Shouldn't have happened.
Yes Obsession was a clearly biased Memri movie and I agree that they were extremely critical of Radical Islam (note Radical). However I still feel her point of "political correctness" as a weapon is valid.
Late, you also raise a good point:
"If you are ordered to do participate in something you believe to be a crime against humanity, ....do you do as you're told? Because an oath has removed your conscience?"
When you join a military, you have to somewhat "syncronize" your conscience with that of the military. You ask yourself "what is the worst thing I could imagine being asked to do by my country." For me in Canada, the worst I could imagine was a situation similar to Iraq: invading another country that may or may not have deserved it.
I asked myself: Could I ever round up and kill innocent men women and children? My asnwer was no. Thus I asked "could I ever see Canada asking me to do something that extreme"? Again my answer was no. Therefore given that I trust in my country and what it will ask me to do, I'm willing to follow orders, even if it presses the limits of what "I" may consider the right thing to do.
I don't think that this "illegal" war that this soldier was asked to participate in is an extreme enough example to justify refusing orders to deploy.
He's disagreeing with a VERY general issue: not a specific "against my conscience" issue such as being ordered to commit genocide.
The UN has not issued any directives or resolutions calling for the arrest of all US servicemen in Iraq as war criminals. Thus this Lt is not going against some international law for which he has to fear punishment at a later date. What he is doing is bypassing a "chain of command" which as any serviceman knows, is to be done only in the most extreme of circumstances (ie being ordered to kill civilians or use biological weapons etc)
And Anticon: You can't compare Watada to Washington. Washington stood up for an entire revolution and was willing to put his life on the line to achieve independence from British rule.
Watada just doesn't want to go to Iraq. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:38:42 PM | The war is complete treachery. The young men are always too young to know it.
80% ofthose dying are under 30 years old. There is massive informatioin being suspressed
to the public of all the circumstances of this war.
Canadians have no clue of what they are doing there. The numbers of deaths of Canadian troops now are being supressed. Though the numbers in the US are multiplyng..........thousands are running AWOL - 500 per month!
The public doesn't understand that THEY THE PEOPLE DECIDE THE WAR - and they have already by polls stated that the American people want out. And I don't beleive they really ever voted Bush and his goons in or backed this war. We are being dictated to by
a dangerous Fascist government -- | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:48:38 PM | First off: for all of you soldiers, active or othrwise, who posted here and pretty much defined this Moron for what he is.... May I offer you my most gracious heartfelt thanks for your honorable service!!
We allready have 'contiencious objectors"... this guy isn't apparantly one of them cause he sure took all the goodied from wearing the uniform.
then we have the guys who sometimes have to make personal judgement calls in the heat of battle because of a lame or incompetent command. this guy wasn't one of those, cause he never even got to battle.
this guy is nothing but a waffling coward, and an obvious pawn for the anti war left. (who no doubt have surronded him and comforted him....enabling his stand.
this dumbkoff is trying to take the position of the above described situations...after the fact and under the general sweeping generalizations that he is against the war. I would call him 'the convienient coward'. Or perhaps...'the opportunistic coward'. Much the same as the guy who turned in the Abu grave soldiers. (you know his home town wants to kill him for a traitor)
the Only reason this ever became a story is because the left leaning media will not put the same emphisis on the 99.99999 percent of the military who honorably support our efforts! Blah Blah. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:54:54 PM | Much the same as the guy who turned in the Abu grave soldiers. (you know his home town wants to kill him for a traitor)
Speaks volumes.
I wonder of those who serve with honour will back you on this one.
The soldiers I know see these war crimes, as war crimes, ...and don't associate themselves with this kind of atrocity.
See: Nuremberg | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 4:57:50 PM | I'm pleased that so many people have gotten onto this thread to express their opinions about these important life and death questions...
as for this one:
Is he a hero? Everybody's opinion on that will be different, depending on what you value more: his obligation to serve or his obligation to do what he thinks is right. Again, there is no "right" answer; just each person's opinion.
...isn't heroism subjective? I imagine the LT must have struggled before making his decision and he is certainly the one who is living with the consequences of his choices.
As a person who has personally experienced war and as the mother of a son who will some day be draft age, these issues have deep meaning for me.
I think if most people in our countries had first hand war experience, we would be far less likely to begin and/or jump into armed conflicts. There are other ways to resolve conflicts, even big ones. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:01:28 PM | Ya know, I'm just gonna support the ones that are fighting...no matter where they are...and hope that this friggin' war is over soon. I am tired of hearing about kids that aren't even old enough to drink getting killed. I'm tired of the hate mongers that protest at a soldier's funeral over homosexuality and call themselves Christians...I'm tired of everyone ****ing about our government and how it's messing up...I don't like what it's doing...but I'm more concerned about some twenty year old and how he is surviving over there.
I've heard tell that a lot of those troops don't have anyone sending them letters or cards...can you imagine what that must feel like? Putting your life out there and no one appreciates you.
So let the officer do his thing...if he brings more awareness to what goes on over there then more power to him. He promised to do his share but he changed his mind. Unfortunately, no one will ever know the real reason why. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:05:07 PM | No offense to dear Rosemerrie, but this is a perfect example of one of the greatest Al-Qaeda tools in the West.
First, she casts doubts on the soldiers themselves as being naive or not knowing what they're getting into. It might be true in some cases, but most guys KNOW what war is, they've seen the body bags coming home and they know they're signing up to go fight. After all, most of the fighters in WWII were just farm boys who didn't know much about the world right?
She quotes outrageous numbers that while those well informed know are not true, those who aren't so up on their facts might take it seriously and go "oh my god really?!"
We have 2500 soldiers in Afghanistan. Since 2001 I'm not sure what the exact number is (I seem to remember 44) but its around or under 50 for sure (someone please correct me)
And yes, while the public does "decide" the war, they do not UNDERSTAND the war. They sit at home watching the news about the latest genocide, or bloody reprisals in a totalitarian regime and say "Oh my god that's horrible somebody should do something." And then when the government does go to war, they say "oh but we don't want anyone to die doing it."
How does the most powerful, advanced and well equipped military in the world lose to insurgents riding around in pick up trucks and on donkey carts?
The answer is it's lack of stomach for battle.
Beirut in the 1980's taught terrorists one lesson: Kill enough US marines and the United States will go home.
Vietnam: Ho Chi Minh said "I can fight for a thousand years." When the war got bloody enough, the US packed its bags.
Somalia: Drag a dead body through the streets: the US goes home.
USS Cole: Blow up a US warship, they'll maybe fire off a few rockets but they won't risk anymore troops.
And now Iraq and Afghanistan: They know if they make it bloody enough Western Media will have a field day over it and the public outcrying ensuing will make the US back down. Except in Iraq and Afghanistan so far the West has held its ground.
The enemy is smart: they know history and they know how to look for trends. And they learn their lessons about our weaknesses
Terrorists are terrorists for a reason. Their mode of operation is to use bloodshed (and their enemies lack of tolerance for it) to acheive their goals. They don't care how many of their own perish. Lets face it, how many mothers of suicide bombers have you heard praising Allah and saying "I'm so proud of my son and I know he's in paradise now."
The boys here who have been to Iraq will know what I'm talking about with this:
There's two types of fighters in Iraq: What the Marines call "Martyrs" and "Guerillas."
Martyrs WANT to die. Specifically they want to be killed by Marines and in doing so take as many of them with them as possible. They do things like barricade themselves inside houses with weapons and explosive vests etc or are suicide bombers.
The Guerilla fighter wants simply to cause as much death and destruction as possible, but to live to fight another day. They don't want to acheive strategic or tactical victories and hold ground, or capture certain points: Again their goal is to create as much blood shed and fear as possible.
Thus, what this Lt is teaching the world is that "Kill enough marines, kill enough people, make things bloody enough and they won't want to fight anymore."
Spilled blood to these fighters is simply a currency: How high does the body count have to be before the United States gives in? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:05:40 PM | First off: for all of you soldiers, active or othrwise, who posted here and pretty much defined this Moron for what he is.... May I offer you my most gracious heartfelt thanks for your honorable service!!
Why thank you so very much! But I was talking more about Watada not Bush.
I'm not sure I understand this point though:
Or perhaps...'the opportunistic coward'. Much the same as the guy who turned in the Abu grave soldiers.
Are you saying that reporting the crimes (and war crimes) of other soldiers is a cowardly act?
I think JAG would take even greater exception to that violation of the UCMJ, given that it is a soldier's duty to report such things, than they will with refusing a deployment. In fact, it is JAG's position that "WHEN IN DOUBT - REPORT IT."
edit:
The Guerilla fighter wants simply to cause as much death and destruction as possible, but to live to fight another day. They don't want to acheive strategic or tactical victories and hold ground, or capture certain points: Again their goal is to create as much blood shed and fear as possible.
I've got bad news for you but victory doesn't necessarily involve taking and holding ground and the goal of any soldier is to defeat the enemy without dieing (a dead soldier is of no use to anyone but the enemy).
And, if you can kill enough of the enemy to make them give up and leave, that is the ultimate strategic victory, as in, you've won. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:08:04 PM |
Because six years in jail is easy compared to Iraq, easy compared to being a convicted felon on the run, easy compared to paying his own school loans.
I don't know about you, but I would not so frivously throw away six years of my life. In addition to fleeing, he could have easily avoided both Iraq and legal trouble by having an 'accident' that resulted in a broken leg, or some such thing.
I also find it interesting that people are calling for harsh punishments, executions, and such for this guy who is taking a stand, but don't seem to care less that their current president, the one who was so eager about this war, avoided serving in Vietnam when he was a part of the military.
The fact of the matter is, none of us know this guy. It may be he is using this as an excuse to get out of serving. It may also be that he is fighting to make things better for the very people who are so eager to see him nailed to the wall. You care so much about the intangible effect this guy will have on his team, and yet give a free pass to the people who started this war, on either faulty information or lies, that is killing so many of your brothers-in-arms. In your minds, you have already convicted this officer, one of your own, and yet refuse to even consider the misdeeds done against you by your own government.
I hope this is not a common mind-set amongst the armed forces. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:08:19 PM |
I wouldn't call anyone willing to face a possible six years in prison, and probably a lifetime of blocked avenues afterwards due to that conviction, a coward.
Which is exactly why he is going public with his case. He is NOT willing to face 6 years in prison, otherwise he would have just refused to do his duty and taking his punishment. Instead he is trying everything he can think of to twist this situation around to make it as painless as possible for himself.
He may have been sincere about going to Afghanistan, because it is in fact safer there than Iraq for the average soldier. And he can also use that as another clever dodge, in effect saying "I support the war in in Afghanistan as being just and will therefore go fight there, but the one in Iraq is not, so in good conscience I can't go". He's not stupid, he knows that with this ploy, plus trying to get his case heard in the court of public opinion, that he may have a chance to escape both punishment and doing his duty.
So I disagree with your comment, Montreal Guy. If he was willing to do the time, he'd already be in the orange jumpsuit.
He's just trying to weasel his way out of all his responsibilites that he incurred by swearing his oath when he was commissioned a 2nd Lt. And further he is still trying to dodge the rightful punishment he deserves for violating that oath.
I stand fully by my previous comment. This guy is a coward, and a slimy one at that. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:15:09 PM | Or perhaps...'the opportunistic coward'. Much the same as the guy who turned in the Abu grave soldiers. Are you saying that reporting the crimes (and war crimes) of other soldiers is a cowardly act?
I think JAG would take even greater exception to that violation of the UCMJ, given that it is a soldier's duty to report such things, than they will with refusing a deployment. In fact, it is JAG's position that "WHEN IN DOUBT - REPORT IT."
Yup, I'm surprised that his one slipped by.....
Advocating murder no less.
(you know his home town wants to kill him for a traitor)
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:15:30 PM |
for all of you soldiers, active or othrwise, who posted here and pretty much defined this Moron for what he is.... May I offer you my most gracious heartfelt thanks for your honorable service!!
Does this mean that those soldiers who didn't call him a moron don't get your thanks? Do they not deserve it just as much? Or only if they agree with your views?
I would call him 'the convienient coward'. Or perhaps...'the opportunistic coward'. Much the same as the guy who turned in the Abu grave soldiers. (you know his home town wants to kill him for a traitor)
I don't know if you've been keeping up on current events, but what he did was the correct thing to do. Remember how all those people went on trial and were convicted? It's because they were committing crimes, and he brought it to the attention of the proper authorities. Or is that only correct when you agree with it?
As for his town wanting to kill him for a traitor, I think that is more reflective of their character (or lack thereof) than his. | |
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