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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:19:49 PM | "avoided serving in Vietnam when he was a part of the military."
Let's not bash Bush too much here. He was a trained fighter pilot and was probably going to go over to Vietnam, until the airforce realized that the jet he was trained to fly was completely useless against Russian Migs. They decided rather than sending antiquated planes to get shot down on mass, they'd send newer planes (with different pilots who actually knew how to fly these newer planes)
He wasn't a dodger of military service.
You know, one day if I'm ever running for Prime Minister of Canada, I'm sure my opposition will drag out my course reports from basic and point out that I was "below standard" or was always falling asleep or wasn't the model soldier.
Guys who get through the military with a sparkling record, never a problem, then go on to pursue a flawless political career: something sits wrong with me. You know, like it's too good to be true?
Off topic- Apologies on that. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:24:05 PM | The brave ones, they're the ones that go *despite* knowing the risks and hardship they face, during - and after serving. I'm not sure we should categorize them as "brave" in the sense you are speaking. I would say more like "scared to death" based on the propaganda that has been shoved down their throats regarding:
*"If we don't fight the terrorists there, they will attack us here."
*"High terror alerts all over the country where no true danger ever existed in order to scare the sh*t out of our citizens … to convince them we needed this war."
*"Lies, lies, and more lies thrown at them by the current administration."
(All of the above statements are from actual military personnel who went to Iraq and Afghanistan.)
You haven't have no idea of the condition that many of these men return home in, their nerves are fried, they can't sleep for nightmares. Recovering from significant physical and emotional trauma, soldiers are depressed, they have anxiety problems, they can't sleep. And some of them are asked to return after a very short break, once they are deemed 'fit for duty' - because there is a shortage of experienced men for battle in hot spots. Most men are in it for their full two years - plus. Oh but I do know … it's part of my job to take care of these people. I also work with medical personnel who were stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan … their work continues here at home … they tell me that working with the returnees is as if they never left the battlefield. For sure, my heart goes out to each and every one of them.
But let me just say one thing quickly … not one single person that I have encountered … either as a client or a fellow co-worker … feels positive about the way they were "sucked into serving" (their words). You see it's not just the "battle fatigue" they are dealing with. It's the fact that they personally feel betrayed by their President … the man who got them into this mess to begin with. Most have personally told me that if they ever had to face that man personally, they would not want to be held responsible for their actions … I truly believe they would kill him on the spot.
I knew a fair number of 'Nam vets, too. I saw their drug and drinking problems, their broken marriages, their inability to feel 'normal' again. Heard of their suicides, and 'disappearance'm when they dropped out of life, unable to cope. Uncle did basically nothing for these soldiers, after they returned. The people you speak of here (almost all men) are my fellow high school classmates, not to mention that I was in the USO back then as well and made the acquaintance of even more men directly involved. Some are still corresponding friends.
The dire situation: that the US DOD has very little programmatic help for the returning soldier with acute and chronic stress reaction. Its left to the community, to overworked, underfunded public services to pick up the tab.
Buncha soldiers told me: this debriefing and supposed help for mental duress - its a joke!" I can confirm this based on the contact I have with these people.
So what we have:
*are thousands of military personnel returning … many with mutilated bodies, with mutilated minds … with little or no help from the government that sent them into this situation.
*a man who has the "guts" to protest being sent there before he too is turned into the above described condition.
*folks sitting behind their computers here in this thread who insist that this man is a "coward" because he has the guts to say that he cannot in good moral judgment … participate.
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:33:14 PM |
Let's not bash Bush too much here. He was a trained fighter pilot and was probably going to go over to Vietnam, until the airforce realized that the jet he was trained to fly was completely useless against Russian Migs.
He got into the pilot's program with a 25% qualifying score. How do you think he even got into the national guard?
The national guard even said strings had to be pulled for him to get in.
They decided rather than sending antiquated planes to get shot down on mass, they'd send newer planes (with different pilots who actually knew how to fly these newer planes)
but where was HE when they decided this?
There's still a 50K reward from Trudeau to anyone who can prove Bush filled the last year of his commitment...
OH.... and to those who say GW started a revolution is therefore less guilty of breaking his oath than LT.
That's so ridiculous. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:33:20 PM | | The UCMJ is strictly concerned with "maintaining good order and discipline", not the usual goal of civil law. As such, the legality of the war is not to be decided or is even an issue here. That slimy coward/**stard missed movement and if allowed to do so would harm morale and that would not be maintaining "good order and discipline"........The military is different than working at Sears or Jiffy Lube. He disobeyed an order to deploy, that's it. The time to decide to disobey an unlawful order (in his opinion, not mine) would be if when deployed, he decided that attacking a certain village or group of terrorists was an illegal order....One does not have to follow an illegal order and deploying with your unit is not ever, in any way whatsoever, illegal. This is not my opinion, it's military law. Blaine SSG Ret. US ARMY | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:45:22 PM | I find it hard to believe that you don't understand what I said. But anyway, since you want me to spell it out for you.
Breaking one's oath because you believe that your country has become a tyrany, forming a new country, and fighting one's old country can not be compared to:
Breaking one's oath because you want to cherry pick your military deployments.
Easy enough? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 5:49:10 PM | I can't speak out against this war.To begin with they are not fighting against Iraq,you're spreading a bunch of Left-wing propaganda that is not true.The Bush administration has made a lot of mistakes in it,1 was believing that Americans would stand up for the right of people all over the world to be free.
The second was believing in Americans wanting a world filled with peace.
We are not fighting another nation,we are fighting Muslims,and according to Islamic teaching either you believe in Islam or they destroy you.
You're proving how anti-American you are,but we will enjoy our upcoming victory there and not worry about you idiotic comments.
Islam has declared a war on US,the way I see it is,"we win,they lose".
God bless America.
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:04:38 PM | As a Veteran I can only say this..
Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and per DOD regulations, he cannot go out and publicly criticize the orders of the Commander in Chief,(he can do so in private, even to the President BTW) nor can he refuse any military order of deployment without a medical referral.. This "person" has violated long standing regulations and traditions of the US Military and simply deserves any penalty he receives.. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:06:57 PM |
1 was believing that Americans would stand up for the right of people all over the world to be free.
The Iraq war has nothing to do with freedom.
The second was believing in Americans wanting a world filled with peace.
There is absolutely no chance the Iraq war will bring about peace.
We are not fighting another nation,we are fighting Muslims,and according to Islamic teaching either you believe in Islam or they destroy you.
Wrong.
You're proving how anti-American you are,but we will enjoy our upcoming victory there and not worry about you idiotic comments.
Isn't 'innocent until proven guilty' one of the cornerstones of American beliefs? | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:07:32 PM | Most have personally told me that if they ever had to face that man personally, they would not want to be held responsible for their actions … I truly believe they would kill him on the spot.
Calling bullshit on this one. Not true of the men I've worked with. They're hardcore soldiers. They didn't enjoy their duty time, but they enlisted, they weren't drafted. Unless you're confusing Vietnam vets (some genuinely despised Nixon) with Iraq war vets.
So what we have are thousands of military personnel returning … many with mutilated bodies, with mutilated minds … with little or no help from the government that sent them into this situation.
This is no different than past wars, as you confirmed in your reply here.
a man who has the "guts" to protest being sent there before he too is turned into the above described condition.
What guts? He flatout didn't want to serve in Iraq, and he decided to punt this one based on his 'rights' to question authority. His own lawyer expressed extreme dismay once he understood that the Lt was to be used as an example.
Hey Cotter. Since you're a logic whiz, suck on this one!
If the president is culpable for 'lying', so is the entire Congress. After all, they agreed to start the war based on the evidence available at the time. And all of the military command are as well - after all, some of them supplied the faulty analysis of intelligence reports
folks sitting behind their computers here in this thread who insist that this man is a "coward" because he has the guts to say that he cannot in good moral judgment … participate.
No, we're calling bullsh*t on his rationale, just like we are on yours. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:44:31 PM | | I am in support of anyone and everyone who speaks out against this war. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against the troops. I honor them for their bravery and hard work. I am against the presidunce who started this war. Bush somehow convinced the US citizens that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 but we all know he wasn't. This war is a nightmare and anyone who really supports the troops would be calling for a quick exit from Iraq. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:48:44 PM | Let me say one thing, who is anybody to judge? I was a civilian employee for recruiting and:
1. the goals were not met, the quota levels were lowered. Statistics at their best.
2. if he was not on the up and up, he could have done what I personally witnessed "soldiers" do. They found ways around going. He could have done the same, no muss, no fuss.
3. that said, there are plenty of good soldiers dying daily for a war the "commanders" are still debating whether to leave or not. These peoples have been "fighting" for generations. this is not the first bloodbath the middle east has been embroiled in nor will it be the last.
4. how arrogant are we as a people/nation to put forth that we know what is best for another country, religion, etc. In this country we can hardly tolerate one belief over another. the pro-life people kill the people who believe in abortion, etc. I think we should clean up our own act before forcing ourselves on other nations.
5. after reading all 8 pages of this blog, I see we range from the blind follower who would kill me if ordered to those who actually want to try and think before acting. It is and should be everyone's right to stand up, whether or not they signed on the dotted line; isn't that what we say our forefathers fought to preserve, our inalienable rights. Rights to say what we want, believe what we want, etc. without the fear of being ridiculed, jailed or even worse killed for them.
Soapbox down. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 6:57:57 PM |
I find it hard to believe that you don't understand what I said. But anyway, since you want me to spell it out for you.
Breaking one's oath because you believe that your country has become a tyrany, forming a new country, and fighting one's old country can not be compared to:
Breaking one's oath because you want to cherry pick your military deployments.
Easy enough?
No... it's too simple. HE says he's doing what he's doing because his country has become a tyranny and is fighting an immoral and illegal war.
YOU say he wants to cherry pick his military deployment.
Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaida was located in Afghanistan. That's why we attacked. Iraq did not attack us.
I believe he's right and I believe he's telling the truth.
I believe you misunderstand. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 7:06:39 PM | | As a former army officer who did not serve in combat, but would have if ordered to, I have absolutely no respect for the cowardly LT in question. He took an oath to uphold the constitution, and that meant taking orders without question from his superiors. A soldier's responsibility is to "do or die and not question why". To question why is to put one's self above all those in his chain of command, and that is wrong. Throughout history, the right or wrong of going to war is rarely black and white. There are always gray areas, but it is not a soldier's place to question them, especially an officer's. What the LT should have remembered and followed is "My country, right or wrong, my country"! | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 7:09:39 PM | This is amazing, such a relatively simple topic how much diverse attention and tangential thinking it has received...
Let me be bold at restating the question:
Has Lt. Watada the right to conscientious objections after he voluntarily signed up?
The question is not whether Lt. Watada is a hero or a scoundrel.
It is not whether Lt. Watada should be forced to suffer the unspeakable horrors the rest of the signees have, just because they signed up for them and went through that hell, so he should suffer just because everybody else has suffered (what?)...
It is not whether you agree with the iraq war or not, it is whether Lt. Watada woke up one day and discovered that he disagreed. If you agree with the Iraq war you will find his objections ridiculous, if you disagree you won't, but again that is besides the question.
Has Lt. Watada the right to conscientious objections after he voluntarily signed up?
For me the answer is very obvious and very affirmative.
Some lawyers might pull their hair out calling me in order and threatening me with legal action, some uber-patriots might warn me of the impeding end of society the way we know it if Lt. Watada's action becomes a precedent, some past/active duty soldiers will just be spiteful they didn't follow the same path, all dressed up nicely in patriotic garments of argumentation...
...which brings in mind Emma Goldman's definition of patriotism but I will bite my tongue... | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 7:33:37 PM | Most have personally told me that if they ever had to face that man personally, they would not want to be held responsible for their actions … I truly believe they would kill him on the spot. Calling bullshit on this one. Not true of the men I've worked with. They're hardcore soldiers. They didn't enjoy their duty time, but they enlisted, they weren't drafted.
I also do not know what capacity you are working with these people … I work with them as their nurse. My co-workers are also nurses who participated in Iraq (on the front lines so to speak) … tending to the wounded and mutilated … one is a Captain and two others are Lt.
Unless you're confusing Vietnam vets (some genuinely despised Nixon) with Iraq war vets. No confusion … while I still have contact with former Viet Nam vets and refugees as well (they are my clients) … the experiences I spoke of are with soldiers from the current "war".
Hey Cotter. Since you're a logic whiz, suck on this one! Nothing to suck on … the US was not attacked by Iraq … the US invaded that country … we're all entitled to our opinion as to the "legality" of the war … we all have to live with the results … all of us that is except the man who started this war.
In the meantime … here's the latest:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16453606/
Bush set to announce U.S. troop surge in Iraq
NBC: Announcement expected next week in effort to reduce sectarianism
By Jim Miklaszewski
Chief Pentagon correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:55 a.m. ET Jan 4, 2007
WASHINGTON - Although nothing is final until President Bush puts his stamp on it, administration officials tell NBC News the president has all but decided on a temporary surge of additional American forces into Iraq in an effort to bring sectarian violence in Baghdad under control.
While no one is talking specific numbers, military officials believe it would involve some 20,000 additional soldiers and Marines.
Most of the increase would be achieved by extending the deployments of those troops already in Iraq by 90 days and accelerating the deployments for troops scheduled to deploy by sending them into Iraq sooner. All you guys in here who are so gung ho about going to Iraq … here's your chance.
Saddle your horses … Giddyup!!
And while you're packing your gear … do us all a favor and leave the objecting Lt. out of this.
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 7:57:46 PM |
Has Lt. Watada the right to conscientious objections after he voluntarily signed up?
Technically, according to regulations he does, but the system is designed in such a way that it is virtually impossible to demonstrate. You basically have to convince the board that you oppose the use of lethal violence in any way or for any reason including the defence of yourself or another. Even suggesting that you would kill someone to stop them from killing a child can, and most likely will, be taken as grounds for denial.
Watada had no chance of obtaining CO status under a review board regardless of circumstances. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 8:08:21 PM | Technically, according to regulations he does, but the system is designed in such a way that it is virtually impossible to demonstrate.
exactly, but again that is a different issue. If he does have a right then he deserves support for his stand to exercise that right.
...to confuse the week-spirited even more and at the risk of sounding too cheesy:
Lt. Watada's right to say no was the "official" reason the rest that said yes were sent to Iraq in the first place...democracy and freedom(tm)...
(can't hold back the evil smirk here) | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/5/2007 11:01:55 PM |
Even when his top superior is breaking his own oath to uphold the Constitution?
I'm sorry, did I miss something. Are you a lawyer trained to interpret law with regards to past precedents? The last time I checked, the Supreme Court, which is the FINAL authority on the interpretation of law and the ONLY authority on the interpretation of constitutionality, has yet to find the President in violation of the Constitution or the law with regards to the war in Iraq.
The only real direct participation that you, as a citizen, are entitled to, is the right to vote for your congressional representatives. Last time I checked, just because a common citizen said, in his own crazy interpretation of the "facts" fed to him and his own understanding of the Constitution, that something was unconstitutional, it didn't make it so.
And finally, in the event the Supreme Court does decide that the President's actions were unconstitutional, then this argument might have a little more ground. But the president is the "expert" that YOU elected to deal with national and foreign policy. A 22 year old lieutenant is not trained in, nor entrusted by the American people with, the ability to pass judgements on legality and foreign policy. He fights at the tactical level, and can thus question the legality of orders that are carried out on the tactical level; the president is issuing orders on the strategic level, and truly, the only people who can question such orders (still not publicly) are commanders in charge of executing strategic level operations.
If you want to know more about the differences between tactical, operational, and strategic levels of war and the people who execute each level, FM 1 is the book to read. It also contains other duties and responsibilities of soldiers that are relevant to this thread. It's a short read and pretty informative for those people who are basing their opinions off of things they see in the movies or worse yet, are fed by the news. http://www.army.mil/fm1/preface.html | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/6/2007 6:24:03 AM | I choose not to support him.
He was paid to do a job. He chose that job, it didn't choose him.
It's a job you just can't "quit" just because you feel like it.
I'm sure they drew enough pictures for him to understand this.
Simply put:
Stop whining sissy boy is what I would tell him as I sent his a$$ packing to Iraq. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/6/2007 6:50:13 AM |
And Al-Qaeda is using our freedom, and fifth-column elements on the American Left, to do just that!
That's SOOOO Nov 6th.....
Even President Bush has dropped the "Democrats are assisting the terrorists !" party line.
You can be against this war, and still be for the troops.
You can be against this war, and still be proudly American.
Freedom begins with the right to dissent. Without that dissent, you have tyranny. | |
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| Support 1st U.S. Army Officer to Speak Out Against Iraq War
Posted: 1/6/2007 7:20:23 AM |
You may cry and whine over your "imperiled" civil liberties, lefties, but your civil liberties aren't going to mean much if the Islam-o-fascists kill us all!
Please explain how that could possibly happen.
I can easily explain that one. One attack on any major metropolitian area with certain types of germ warfare and we are goners. In case you haven't noticed, the push for more smallpox (among others) vaccine has literally died. There are several other diseases that are very capable of wiping out entire populations as well. | |
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