Nergal
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Joined: 5/14/2008
Msg: 26 | |
| Which man??
Posted: 7/1/2008 5:08:51 AM | | Its the old church guilt trip isnt it ... | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/1/2008 6:11:59 AM | | It amazes me ... so many posters believe that a believer is a sheep blindly following God, with no ideas of their own. I am not sure what God you are talking about, but MY God is big enough for my questions and encourages them. He wants me to be sure of what I believe not just follow without any thought. Remember no one is perfect- we are just forgiven for things that we do. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/1/2008 7:49:23 AM | First of all you got to explain to me what a G-d is...and what a heaven is. Is there one heaven or millions. Are they all the same.
In the first statement the man who lived the spiritual life was with out shame and guilt but oblivious to a G-d. While the second man lives in fear of a G-d. It would have been better if the second man did not fear a G-d and prayed because he was happy and thankful.
Then who goes to heaven......the question was loaded and lobe sided. The only way any one could come to an opinion is if both men where living the same life while one prayed and the other was not. Then who can judge. Its automatically assumed that a religious man has guilt and shame while the non religious man did not. Apples and oranges. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 6:55:02 AM | What a quaint hypothetical story. It amazes me how many people regard the two characters as representing actual people. It seems rather convenient. Anyway, if we're going to have hypothetical scenarios, may I present another one?
A man lived in a town, a law to himself. he had no regard for God, and he had no regard for his fellows. He was proud he was a self-made man and he daily worshipped his "creator". He regarded any belief other than his own to be delusional and foolish, and mocked the religious beliefs of others at every opportunity. It gave him a sense of security and superiority that he was more "scientific" than those "sheep", that he could elevate his sense of value of his beliefs by seeming to reduce the value of those delusional "others". He called religious parents "abusers" for teaching their children their religion, insisting that his way to parent was the only good one, and said that if he had the power he would arrest religious parents for teaching their children their faith.
Another man lived in the same town. He prayed daily and attended the local church. He had regard for God and his fellows, believed in and supported their right to believe whatever they wanted to, and supported their freedom to worship God or not as they saw fit. He lived a simple life, cared for his family, worked hard, gave generously to the poor, helped strangers, and respected others without regard to their beliefs. Though he believed in heaven he didn't pay too much mind to it, not counting his good deeds as making him worthy, but relying instead on the grace of God promised to him.
Which one really deserves to go to heaven? | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 10:29:51 AM | A man who lived in the mountain sides, oblivious of God. Annnd cut.
The opening sentence is flawed so there is no reason to even continue with the scenario.
The Bible teaches that every man knows "in his heart that there is a God". (Psalm)
Either the God in the Bible is a liar or no such man can exist. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:59:21 PM | I think the answer to RO's revised scenario very much depends on whether or not Heaven exists. If it does, then the fact that the first man is clearly a bit of of an @rsehole is going to count against him, and he would probably find it easier to get into a posh nightclub wearing jeans than he would the famous afterlife holiday resort.
The obnoxious chap going to be hoping that Heavens' entry requirements have been relaxed since the Bible was written, and instead of being immediately despatched to that place where the heating is always turned up, he is allowed to make amends for his former behaviour.
Seventy four years of cleaning the toilets in Heaven might be a good lesson to teach him some humility, but this thought raises a question that is almost worth a thread in itself; this being, Do the residents of heaven poo?
My guess is that they probably do but it no doubt smells sweeter up there than it does down here. A satisfactory bowel movement is one of the joys of life, so I can well envisage that Heavenly bodies spend even more time on the toilet than Earthly ones.
The second guy in the story will obviously breeze through heavens' strict entry process. He'll probably be issued with a "privileged member" gold pass when he enters the pearly gates and and immediately be ushered to the VIP reception lounge to share introductory tea and biscuits with Cliff Richard, among others. (This is assuming he dies at some time after Cliff, who is currently very much alive, albeit not having many chart hits.) | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 1:48:38 PM | Hi DA
The Bible teaches that every man knows "in his heart that there is a God".
But they would also need to know such a God existed, yes? Then there’s the long road to teach them, listen to what they say and express a desire to follow or not.
There was a recent story about a tribe never before having had contact with the outside world, you can read about it here… it has a colourful pic too. :)
Earth’s Last Uncontacted Tribe in South America
www.mujahideenryder.net/2008/05/30/earths-last-uncontacted-tribe-in-south-america/
I would hasten to say there are more in other remote parts of the world. It seems it’s going to be many generations before every living being on earth knows about God. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:10:20 PM | which man???
sounds like a "how many angels can stand on the end of a pin" type speculation. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:24:56 PM | If you don't have God in your life they there's no sense worrying about where you go when you die - if you don't believe in heaven then there's no discussion
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:25:23 PM | but MY God is big enough for my questions and encourages them. But if YOUR god is not THEIR god imo then maybe YOUR god is not the TRUE god and you're worshiping a FALSE god in vain.
Either the God in the Bible is a liar or no such man can exist. I vote for the person who wrote that in the bible.
If you don't have God in your life they there's no sense worrying about where you go when you die - if you don't believe in heaven then there's no discussion. IMO Spoken like a true christian. If you don't believe in god you're not qualified to speak of heavenly things. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 5:04:45 PM | Hi DA
The Bible teaches that every man knows "in his heart that there is a God".
But they would also need to know such a God existed, yes? Then there’s the long road to teach them, listen to what they say and express a desire to follow or not.
There was a recent story about a tribe never before having had contact with the outside world, you can read about it here… it has a colourful pic too. :)
Earth’s Last Uncontacted Tribe in South America
www.mujahideenryder.net/2008/05/30/earths-last-uncontacted-tribe-in-south-america/
I would hasten to say there are more in other remote parts of the world. It seems it’s going to be many generations before every living being on earth knows about God.
Hi, babe,  When ya gonna convert so as wes can get hitched? ;)
But they would also need to know such a God existed, yes? Again, according to the God of the Bible , every man is born with a heart that knows there is a God. The Psalm scripture does not teach us that we will know which god is the correct one, but that "every man knows in his heart that there is a God.
Then there’s the long road to teach them, listen to what they say and express a desire to follow or not.
I agree.
Each man must choose which god he will serve.
Either the God in the Bible is a liar or no such man can exist.
I vote for the person who wrote that in the bible.
So the writers of the Bible wrote of a genuine God but they themselves were fake, is that about right?
Errrr....Im confused... | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/2/2008 9:41:36 PM | So the writers of the Bible wrote of a genuine God but they themselves were fake, is that about right?
Errrr....Im confused...
No, IMO the writers of the bible wrote of a god they believed was genuine.
The Bible teaches that every man knows "in his heart that there is a God". (Psalm) Either the God in the Bible is a liar or no such man can exist.
I voted that the man who wrote "that every man knows in his heart that there is a God" in the bible is the liar. I can't vote for someone who I believe doesn't exist. Then again, now that I think about it maybe liar is too strong a word. Maybe he was just someone out to convince others of his beliefs and he used the "make them feel stupid/guilty/not with the majority, etc., for not believing" ruse.
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 5:16:30 AM | [Which man deserves...]
The word "deserves" is trumped by the word "grace" in God's ecomomy.
If one is so angry and confused as he professes to be then why is he reluctant to listen and consider? | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 5:33:07 AM | Let's start with this:
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
So my interpretation of the first line is that, "LORD your God" is literally just that your God not someone elses.
Next I see the first commandment as that which I believe and if I start believing in what you believe in then I will have lost my way and become a lamb to the slaughter. If I choose to listen to you then I will have chosen to not listen to my God.
And lastly the 2nd commandment I understand this to be in direct line with just about every organized religion on the planet. Just look around you and you'll see it. Buddha, Christ, Dalai Lama, the Koran and the Torah just to name a few. If you really think about it all of these are either things or people that are revered. We are told by higher ups to pray to all of these and more, think about how many Saints there are. What's deal with that? I'm supposed to talk to a medallion or a bunch of beads to get God's attention and if I don't then I will go to a very bad place.  
As I read your question I would have to say that neither because the first guy has no need to believe in heaven and has created his own heaven on earth. As for the other guy he gave his chances up when he decided to hand over his soul to organized religion.
Mind you I don't have anything against what others believe in, but don't force me to believe in it or call me names because of it.
As for organized religion call it what it really is an organized social event for like minded people and take away the tax breaks.  What, too soon?
Later, Bob | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 7:05:22 AM | Again, according to the God of the Bible, every man is born with a heart that knows there is a God. The Psalm scripture does not teach us that we will know which god is the correct one, but that "every man knows in his heart that there is a God.
I can't let this go misunderstood, it's way too important a point DA.... those people could never know the God of the bible for many varied and obvious reasons... the main one being their illiteracy.
Now, who knows, they may worship a Sun King or a Moon Goddess for all we know and these things would most probably be the limit to their understanding. Thus, a biblical God would never be conceived in their lives or their children's lives, so on and so forth…
If couple together their lack of integration interest, it gives rise to more doubt that they will ever have another understanding. It may also be true that there are other civilizations, as yet undiscovered, who will never know the biblical God.
Conclusively it makes the "every man knows in his heart" quote highly suspect and disagreeable. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:03:24 AM | This man.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.' | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:17:02 AM | IMO Spoken like a true christian. If you don't believe in god you're not qualified to speak of heavenly things.
That's not what I said. What's there to discuss if you don't believe in God or heaven? You know you're not going anywhere when you die so does it really matter?
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 2:35:34 PM | What's there to discuss if you don't believe in God or heaven? You know you're not going anywhere when you die so does it really matter?
Can we not opine our views on the matter regardless of our beliefs since this is an open forum?
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/3/2008 4:23:48 PM | Of course, Ray, you can do as you wish
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/4/2008 6:42:52 AM | [If you really think about it all of these are either things or people that are revered]
Christians believe there is one exception and that is that Christ is fully human and fully divine. Jesus and God are one which is clearly revealed in the Bible, God's written revelation. Granted many choose not to believe this and that is your right to do so, but don't fault those who choose to believe. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/4/2008 8:52:46 PM | To me, the man on the mountain is in heaven already,being loved, showing love!
the man in the church, praying with fearful thoughts is already in hell!
you see, heaven and hell, are a state of mind,and with our thoughts we choose where we are!  | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/5/2008 12:42:22 AM | dantwice : My point was not to tell others not to believe, but was to point out that it was one of God's original commandments that we are to have a direct conduit to God Himself and that by putting people and things up on a pedistal we are directly disregarding the original Law. He didn't create an addendum nor did Christ say we had to pray to Him directly.
As I perceive His teachings He was instructing His followers and everyone else that there was a new way out of sin because the old rules were more than people could handle.
If anything the new rule was to love your neighbor as yourself, which if anything pretty much covers the majority of all the other commandments, but does not supersede the original commandment of idoltry.
I still believe it's everybodies prerogative to have a personal relationship with God and if like minded people get together and worship how they see fit, well more power to them, but to deny others this same right or have one individual stand up for a group and start spouting their own rules ie... Jim Jones, Sharpton, the Pope and many others.
As I understand it there is, nor ever will be a need for a dare I say, " middleman".
Later,
Bob | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/5/2008 1:27:54 AM | Somewhere, some Buddhists are reading this on the internet and shaking their heads and asking why worry about such things.  | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:26:07 AM | ["middleman"]
That is exactly the point. God makes the rules and according to the revealed Word he appeared for thirthy- something years as fully man, Jesus Christ. At no time did he given up his divinity so Jesus Christ was always fully divine. No middleman required.
Unfortunately, we have many people, some you mentioned, who really messed with people's minds. That doesn't in any way change the Truth.
God has and always will give you the privilege of choice. We all choose, we all live with our choices. How you choose is your business.
For the Buddhist, since heaven was the topic of the original post, there is no concern for them about what is posted here. Let them live with their choice. | |
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| Which man??
Posted: 7/5/2008 5:58:47 PM |
I can't let this go misunderstood, it's way too important a point DA.... those people could never know the God of the bible for many varied and obvious reasons... the main one being their illiteracy.
Firstof all I wrote that the Psalm passage taught that every man knows in his heart that there is a God, not that hw would know in His heart that Jesus was He.
And illiteracy wont cut it. Some of the most godly people I have known cannot read/write. Preachers, teachers, missionaries, TV broadcasting , radio, media in general, and plain ol' gossip works wonders, my friend.
Most importantly, the God of the Bible has said,
"He who seeks Me with a pure heart will find Me." | |
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