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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/10/2007 1:55:23 PM | Hi.
I have to weigh in here.
I've not read all the posts, but I've gotten the general idea of what many of you are saying.
I work the front lines with youths in conflict with the law every day, and I've done so for 23 years, so I know a bit about this.
The knee-jerk reactions are always, let's revamp the law and let's lock the little so-and so's up. That is a very humand and emotional response and I understand that. That is also a political response because that is all the politicians know how to do when we ask them why our communities are in such trouble. Let's build more jails and re-write the laws, they say. It's all smoke and mirrors to distract us from the real issues.
The Youth Criminal Justice Act is our most recent federal legistlation. Buckets of money have been spent re-writing criminal youth laws. I recommend that you read the Act (or some of it). You can find it on the internet. Locking all of these kids up is not the answer. The money should not be spent writing tougher laws and building more jails. The resources need to be put into the communities to address many of the problems at the grassroots level; problems that many of you have raised here. Please allow me to make a list for you : poor parenting, lack of education, malnutrution, mental health issues, generations of marginalized people, the welfare system, ignorance, the education system, sexual and physical abuse, alchohol and drug abuse, fetal alcohol syndrome, the bloody television...and on and on. If you want to reach these kids, we, as in *WE*, our society of fellow humans, need to try to find ways to addrress the social issues in this province. And,we need to reach these kids when they are very young. We all know who the *at risk* kids are when they are in elementary school. They are as visible as the nose on your face.
I know many of you have personal stories of kids roaming in packs, of them committing crimes or doing things that scare you. I understand that. It is very frightening. They seek each other out because they are not in loving homes with parents who care for them. They struggle in school, they have no structure. Like attracts like. They are very, very angry, some of them. They have no impulse control. The hate. They are not wanted. They lash out in anger and rage and they do horrible things. Locking a 14 yr old up in Waterville for a custodial sentence will not begin to address the issues he or she has. And they will most likely come out of there with even more issues.
We need to have more ogranizations like Big Brother, we need youth activity centres, camps, counselling, sports programs, teacher aides, mentors for both the parents and kids...we need to find ways to care about them, to pull them back in.
I'm also on the board of a youth alternatives society. That program works. Read their stats for your county.
I'm all for sentencing kids in ways that make them accountable for their actions. And yes, some kids need to be locked up for the protection of society.
But, we have some serious, serious problems, not just in Nova Scotia, but in all of Canada and we need to address them.
My opinion.
Thanks for your time.
L. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/11/2007 2:44:39 PM |
The Guardian Angels are looking at coming here
http://www.news957.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20070911_071452_5256
I think that is awesome
My younger brother is a 36 yr old man with Schizophrenia.
On a Friday afternoon (Aug. 10) at about 2 pm, he was walking through Highfield park.
3 young black men approached him and asked him for a cigarette. He told them he didn't smoke. They beat him up. They beat him up so bad that they broke his jaw, damaged his teeth & put him in the hospital.
At 2 in the afternoon?!?!?!?!
The police never even called his parents. His father found out in the neighbourhood that he was attacked and rushed to the hospital
I don't know many of the details of what happened concerning the police, but I've been told that when contacted, they just blew it off. oh well just another North end Dartmouth beating . They wont pursue it or charge them. That would be up to him.
My little brother is about 150 lbs and wouldn't hurt a fly
He is currently walking around with a broken jaw because he is afraid to be put under.
How would these 3 punks feel if this was their little brother
NOTE: I am not racist, had it been 3 white guys I would have said "3 white guys"
Anyone who reads the Daily news might have seen an article about this a few days later when my other brother was interviewed by a columnist | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/11/2007 3:42:38 PM | Thats bull$hit(I mean the way the Cops acted or didn't act). I read through that link you posted, and I for one hope the Angels do come to HRM. To often do we hear of swarmings/random violence... things need to be done about it.
Tim
=(x | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/11/2007 4:08:17 PM | | Excellent post Lizabird. I think you hit it right on the head. People definetly have a knee jerk reaction to youth troubles/violence. Lock em all up, give them adult sentences. People think that kids aren't afraid of the system and thats why they do the things that they do. Well, good kids aren't sitting around at home saying to themselves....hmmm, I won't get much time, so why don't I just ditch hockey practice today and beat up a granny in Point Pleasant Park. We need to get to these kids BEFORE it gets to this point. Kids that have advantages...good parents/parenting skills, money, food, activities, etc etc aren't usually the ones out there causing all the mayhem. Not saying never, but they aren't the majority. I'm not sure what you really can do with kids once they hit that point where they are causing the trouble...but locking them in jail for huge stretches of time isn't going to make much difference. They will just get out and be much much worse then they were before. They're not going to come out and become an angel. They are more apt to come out and become more violent...maybe like the guy who got out of jail and assaulted and tried to murder that poor woman working in the Ultramar by herself in Dartmouth. or like Jimmy Melvin who seems to get worse each time he is let out of jail. Reformed they weren't. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/11/2007 4:20:23 PM | | Thats crazy Paige, assult is a crime and your family should be given justice. Hell I be calling every poitician I could till something was done about it. That just isnt right. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/14/2007 3:37:31 PM | Not a comment on youth violence, though it is probably usually the beginning of it, but a comment on parenting of our youth.
I'm a member of the Sackville Kinsmen. If anyone lives out there they are familiar with the Kinsmen Park. We've always had trouble with vandalism and graffiti on our gazebo and park benches.
At our last meeting the parents of a teenage girl and her friend showed up at our meeting because the parents indicated that their daughter and friend were part of a group that spray painted racial slurs on one of the park benches. The parents wanted to bring their daughter there to apologize for the deed. The girl and her friend didn't actually do the painting but were present as it was their friends. Both the girls got up in front of our membership and apologised and asked what they could do to help rectify the problem. They were willing to repaint the benches if need be. A number of our members commended them and the parents for doing this, coming forward to admit and apologise, as this was a first for us. We told the girls to express to their friends the consequences of such actions. Besides taking away the enjoyment of the park for the community, it takes money for us to repair this vandalism. For every dollar we spend on park vandalism it's a dollar not going to the needs of others. We donate thousands of dollars a year to a variety of charities. From MS, CF, Children's Trust, seniors, school bursaries, Xmas families, and many individuals that are in need and request our support. That is money not going to those causes. We also indicated that our members are all volunteers and spend many hours of our own time trying to raise these monies.
Thinking of this thread where we have bashed the parents of the youth offenders, I had to go and shake the parents hand and thank them for giving me some faith that there are parents actually caring what their children are doing and making them responsible for their actions. I was actually choked up a bit. We need more of them.  | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 7:16:57 AM | A number of years ago, my friend's daughter was chased home by the local 14 year-old bully. When she ran into her home mom confronted the teen who swore at her and still tried to chase the daughter.
My friend got home and knew who the kid was and knew where he hung out. He went down to the local spot and found the kid. He gave him a good thrashing (Didn't really heed the kid's taunts about how he couldn't touch him because he was under age.) and waited for the police to arrive. The cop also knew the kid and asked the dad what the young fellow tripped over. My friend was a little puzzled and gave the cop that look. The cop, once again, asked what the kid tripped over. "It's obvious he fell on something and is trying to blame you." The daughter was never bothered again and the bully was much less of a problem in the neighbourhood after that.
That's old school justice and that is what kids can understand. When we continually tell our youth they can do whatever they want with no consequence, how can we wonder why they do what they do?
When I was a kid they had the strap in school. If you got the strap in school and told your parents, you got worse than the strap at home. You learned to respect other people and their property. YES. Every once in awhile there was abuse; but, over all people were better people to each other.
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 8:14:55 AM | That's not "old school justice", that's vigilantism...violence to fight violence, without regard for the law, and an assault by an adult on someone else's child. To teach him a lesson? What lesson? Don't you suppose that kid had prehaps been the victim of violence previously? Your friend and the cop were wrong, in my opinion. Would you feel the same way if some other parent assaulted your child? Should we all just beat the crap out of people who give us a a hard time?
L. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 8:34:15 AM | If my child was in the wrong then they deserved it. Seemed to have worked for many, many generations. With all the bleeding heart liberals around, and I consider myself liberal, society is falling into a rut and allowing such abuse without repercussions. Somehow sending a child to their room with their TV, internet and xbox doesn't really send a msg that what they did was wrong. It just rewards them. Mind you excessive force may be too much, but I sure as hell was scared to get the strap in school and never assaulted, verbally or otherwise, my teachers because of that threat hanging over me.
You definitely saw a lot more of what happened to sweetgin when I was a kid than you do now! | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 9:09:21 AM | Assault is a criminal offence. Do you advocate this a means to fight youth crime and violence?
Corporal punishment was meted out by persons in authority, within the rule of the law. Beating up somebody's else's kid because they threatened, chased or even assaulted your kid is neither lawful nor a resolution of any sort to the problems our society is facing.
L. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 9:17:37 AM |
That's not "old school justice", that's vigilantism...violence to fight violence, without regard for the law, and an assault by an adult on someone else's child. To teach him a lesson? What lesson? Don't you suppose that kid had prehaps been the victim of violence previously? Your friend and the cop were wrong, in my opinion. Would you feel the same way if some other parent assaulted your child? Should we all just beat the crap out of people who give us a a hard time?
To answer your question. If my child was doing as the OP says these other children are doing and their parent beat the crap out of him, he'd best not tell me because I'd be doing worse.
Beat the crap out of someone who gives us a hard time? No. Beat the crap out of someone who bullies and terrorizes someone. You bet.
It's the (bleeding hearts=YOU) that are causing the problem. Since you say you've been working with youth and their troubles, I've gotta guess you're a social worker of some kind. You're also part of the problem. People often learn from action and reaction. Our youth are learning from action and no reaction. There is no consequence for poor behavior. YOU have taken the ability of parents to take action. YOU have further limited what police can do and YOU have cried away the power of the courts.
Problems like this don't go away with hugs and many parents don't know how to parent so their kids will act poorly. With no consequence for bad behavior they quickly learn they actually reap rewards for bad behavior. Better status with their peers, money or items from theft and privilege that is derived from power. They get all this without risk of real consequence.
You could spend many millions on education and social programs and not even scratch the surface. With both parents having to work or broken homes or poverty come parenting issues. You can't fix that without truckloads of money. What you can do is provide a real deterrent by providing for consequences to poor behavior.
Make the youth detention centers places where kids dread going and far fewer will go there. Boot camp style places with strict discipline and high workloads very big on education, would do wonders. Instead, even when we catch them, we do nothing except maybe send a social worker to give them some hugs and blame their parents and the system. WHY can't it be the child's fault??
The same principle goes for adults. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Did you hear that? Truck loads of boulders should be brought to the prisons each day. The inmates should spend 16 hours per day making gravel with sledge hammers. No TV. No games. No radios. Nothing! You give up all your basic rights by becoming a criminal. Do this for 10 years and see what happens to the crime rate. NOBODY is scared to go to jail now except the people who have made something of themselves and they are a very small part of the problem.
Before you spout off about my parenting, I'll say I have never hit my kids. What I have taught them is to respect the law and to respect others: especially adults. They aren't perfect but I haven't had any complaints about them from anyone. I have had the luxury of spending a great deal of time parenting them and they fully understand action-reaction or bad behavior-consequence. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 9:32:08 AM | I agree that fighting violence with violence is not a particularly good solution but neither is relieving our youth of any responsibility for any of their actions. I would not have liked to meet the person I might have become if I hadn't been forced (not through violence) to take responsibility for some of the things I did as a youth, because of that I grew up to have respect for others and their property. This I believe is where our society is failing our youth, we've put laws on the books to "protect" them but there is nothing there to teach them respect, morals and simple right from wrong...
It is sad when you think about it, society today is more worried about where I light up a smoke than how we are failing so many of our youth's. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 10:33:15 AM |
It's the (bleeding hearts=YOU) that are causing the problem. Since you say you've been working with youth and their troubles, I've gotta guess you're a social worker of some kind. You're also part of the problem. People often learn from action and reaction. Our youth are learning from action and no reaction. There is no consequence for poor behavior. YOU have taken the ability of parents to take action. YOU have further limited what police can do and YOU have cried away the power of the courts
you, sir, are way out of line and actually, completely wrong about my role with youth.
I was taught by my parents to be respectful during an argument without resorting to personal attacks. my dad also told me never to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed person, and so, I must withdraw....
regards,
l. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 10:59:07 AM | ^^^ Maybe it's my interpretation, or misinterpretation, but I think if you insert bleeding hearts where the capital YOU is then it's not directly at you, lizabird. At least not the YOU's.
I believe that was the purpose of (bleeding hearts=YOU). | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 12:23:29 PM | Well, thanks for the interpretation. However you look at it, the term *bleeding hearts* is meant to be derogatory, and as he assumes I am one, then he in fact blames me (and my ilk) for all the ills of society.
Not a very convincing, nor fact-based argument.
Anyhow, I appreciate that people are giving some thought to the issues because they are real and they are serious. Discussion can sometimes be very productive.
Thanks.
L. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 12:42:50 PM |
Well, thanks for the interpretation. However you look at it, the term *bleeding hearts* is meant to be derogatory, and as he assumes I am one, then he in fact blames me (and my ilk) for all the ills of society.
At what point did I even come close to blaming anyone for all the ills of society?
You didn't take exception to the term "bleeding hearts" when someone else used it.
Not a very convincing, nor fact-based argument.
Where were your facts? You made a statement pretending you had some kind of expertise in the field, yet you offer nothing real or substantive toward a solution. Anyone can say we'll just throw more money at social programs and make it better. We Canadians have been throwing money at social programs for years. We now have out of control youth along with social programs which don't work.
Lets go back to before we had all these programs and protections and see how many old ladies were beaten with table legs JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT. Lets see how many kids were terrorized while going to school without it being dealt with in short order.
You were right about one thing though. Getting into a battle of wits when you are unarmed isn't very bright. Why did you step back in?   | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 1:36:54 PM | OP, if you're still around? Did you find the parents of the bullies? That's the first place to go. Tell them what is happening and consult with them on what to do to correct the problem. They're usually more powerful than the police.
You need to approach them calmly and reasonably and explain factually what happened at first, until you can gauge their reaction.
Maybe they're parents who are just as stuck as you with what to do about the situation and the two of you could reach a solution. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 2:25:52 PM | I really can't imagine too many parents out there who would happily stand by while their son/daughter got a thrashing from a stranger...whether they deserved it or not. No kid deserves to be beat up by an adult as a form of punishment. Its not going to deter him from doing it again..it just shows him that if you want something, violence is the way to get it. Maybe that kids parents would have done exactly like those parents of the girls in Lower Sackville. Teach them a lesson, make them accountable.
Liza, you make good points though. You actually sound like you have first hand knowledge ...despite the "pretending" comment. The rest of us are just trying to make suggestions and talk, without being in the trenches so to speak. Obviously this system is beyond flawed and there are no easy answers. I just don't think going around beating up kids is the best solution. Maybe thats whats already been happening to them and they in return take out their frustrations on other kids who they can scare. I doubt very many of these bullies are raised in 100 % functional homes to begin with. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 3:45:01 PM | I too have over 25 years in the system and on the front lines. I agree with your comments to a point. The Policing community was using the buzz words "Community based policing" and this was to be a NEW way of doing things. It worked in many places and worked well. However, where it was not understood and used a Public Relations it didn't work. What it means is solving problems together as a community including ALL members of our community. Involving the youth, parents, education, police and yes even the elected ones. We need to go to the root problems of our communities and start there. Take the funds from the jail system and PREVENT kids from going to jail. TEACH parenting in school. TEACH sex education and problem solving at a very early age. Coping skills and tools to handle violence should be second nature. That is a start. RESPECT will come when one has SELF-RESPECT. Drugs and street crimes are a games of supply and demand. If there is no demand there will be no supply. No buyer for the stolen goods, there will be no theft.
So look at society in this manner, ARE YOU PART OF THE SOLUTION OR THE PROBLEM? There is no other way. If you look the other way and don't get involved you are part of the problem. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 5:40:51 PM | I used to volunteer for the restorative justice program thinking I could make a difference in kids lives - (buzzer) NOT.... it's a joke to them in most cases, not all, but in most and they end up walking away with a slap on the wrist, laughing all the way. And yes our young offenders act needs to be revamped and kids need to be held accountable for their actions (like dah). They need to be sent to a place where mommy and daddy can't bail them out; let them learn their lessons the hard way and maybe with any luck it might actually sink in and turn them around. Zero tolerance would be a good starting point. I say let the chips fall where they may.
By the way, statistics show that our capital city , dear old Halifax, has the highest crime rate, per capita, than any other city in Canada - scary and disgraceful!! | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 8:12:47 PM | The only way to make a difference would be to get to those kids before they get to that point. It is a joke to them at that stage. These aren't kids getting busted for doing wrong the very first time they did it. They have been causing mayhem and beating the system for awhile by then. Of course they find it all a joke.
There has to be a way of getting to these kids before that though. I'm no expert so I'm not sure what the answer would be or if there is even an answer. But bad kids don't get born. They don't start out as evil three year olds. They turn into the little jerks they become. The trick is to stop them from becoming one.
Lots of people talk about what to do, how to help, how to keep this from happening. Yet, most people never go beyond that. Maybe if just a few of us got off our computers and put our efforts where our mouths are maybe then we'd make some real changes. Talking about it does nothing. | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/20/2007 10:03:59 PM |
Lots of people talk about what to do, how to help, how to keep this from happening. Yet, most people never go beyond that. Maybe if just a few of us got off our computers and put our efforts where our mouths are maybe then we'd make some real changes. Talking about it does nothing.
So TG, what are you going to do?
But bad kids don't get born.
True, I don't believe kids are born "bad". However, I do believe that kids inherit parts of their parents personalities. If one or both have a "negative" personality....well.......! | |
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/22/2007 3:11:29 AM | Well a lot of these kids are products of the parents, who are often times more anti-social then the kid is. Old-fashioned notions about bringing the kid home for justice from mommy and daddy is a pipe dream in most cases. Its sad that some of these people can never be reeducated or saved.
But it is better to remove those kids from parents or environments that create this kind of mentality. Punish the parents as well as the kids. The adults deserve a kick in the ass just as much some times. When your dealing with a feral kid that cannot be controlled by a parent, then there is no choice but to forcefully yank this kid off the streets if you want any chance of saving them. It sounds cruel, and sometimes it is. But it is the only way.
All kids go through some hell-raising as teenagers. Its how they test their limits. But thats not what we are talking about. Those kids are easy to put back on the right track. Some of the ones dishing out these muggings and attacks are beyond the point of crying for help or being able to be made productive adults. They are little sociopaths raised on a diet of hate, violence, and anti-social ethos. They dont want to be saved. Laying your fists on them wont change their behaviors either. They are so shell shocked and angry that only a special care facility can help them. Prison is not a good means to deal with them, but leaving them on the streets is a major mistake too. If our system was more about fixing and less about punishing then it might help.
The problem is the Legal system tries to apply a blanket approach to treating all these offenders the same, and that just isn't going to cut it. There needs to be basic degrees of what can be done - dpending on whether the cops pick up little johnny on his first time offense, or whether they pick up kids who are long term offenders. Same rule should apply to adults. There are hardcore criminal minds in this city that have no business having the same rights as you or I. Yet they do, because it is suppose to be a fair and just way of treating people.
Its no good to think of it as the cops problem. Its a problem for everyone. And at some point violence is the only control mechanism that works on kids and adults like that. A lot of them also get so fed up with life that they implode instead of explode, and end their own lives long before they get old enough to understand how to change their self-destructive nature.
If we were not all so spoon fed with fantasies of vengeance, violence, or materialism as forms of solving problems then it would be less of an issue. Most of these kids are living out twisted versions of the same desires -- just without any controls on how they obtain it. For a society that likes to think it leads by example - we don't seem to practice what we preach very well.
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| Youth violence in Nova Scotia, Is it out of control
Posted: 9/22/2007 9:18:04 AM | I love the story of the guys in the valley who decided to stick up for the new classmate against some bullies. The bullies were going to beat up this kid because he wore pink, I'm sure we've all heard about it lately. Well, those boys got together and pretty much started a movement. No one in authority seemed to be able to stop bullying, but these kids got others to band together and protect their own. Now I see other schools picked up the pink theme and hundreds of kids showed up at their schools in pink. 30 schools in total, just in hrm. Saying no to the violence, by sticking up for each other and not putting up with it anymore.
One of the best stories I've heard in a long long time. | |
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