| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 5:36:06 AM | ubkobalt, you are a man on a mission! Good to see. Not everyone is so persistent at finding the truth. I've read the entire post. Here are my thoughts:
1)
This seems to relate to Kant's views on ethics in that he believed that people should not treat other people as a means to an end, but rather as an end in themselves. Yes, exactly. It is unethical to use human beings as "a means to an end." Kant's view on this coincides with the Christian view of ethics. For Christians, ONLY human beings are an end in themselves. Everything else in the universe is a means towards that end. (The reason for this is that humans are the only creatures created in "the image of God.")
When you think about it, the ONLY way to mistreat a human being is to use them as a means to an end, as a pawn in your power trip. There is no other way. (Although it is possible to accidentally hurt people through miscommunication and ignorance, this doesn't count as mistreatment in this sense because the fault here does not reside within the will.)
2) A helpful analogy has been made between a woman using a man for his money. In this scenario, the man is the "means" and the money is the "end". Similarly, in the scenario of a man being interested in a woman merely for sex, the woman is the "means" and the sex is the "end". Another word for "means" is "instrument" which might be useful here because it highlights that the person is being "used" as an "object" or "thing".
The key word here is "MERELY". It is difficult for a woman to perceive the difference between
a) a man who desires her MERELY as a means, instrument, or object.
b) a man who desires her "personhood" (the end), and also desires her as a means of attaining sex.
Desires cannot be unethical, only actions can. However, it might be seen as unselfish to desire someone for her personhood and for what is in her best interests and selfish to desire someone as a means of satisfying your own desires.
The best way to deal with this, I would say, is to simply OBSERVE your desire for her. Do not express it until such time as it is within the context of appreciating her personhood. This requires RESTRAINT and DISCIPLINE. Such is life.
3) Language expresses concepts. Notably:
a) Swearing is, I would say, inherently derogatory.
b) "Crass" language here might be defined as language which treats different parts of a woman as objects in and of themselves. It is crass because it "objectifies" the woman, treating her as a means to an end.
c) "Common" language might here be perceived as aesthetically displeasing or aesthetically inferior.
d) "Poetic" language might be perceived as paying attention to the subtleties of her personhood, and subsequently may be perceived as desirable by her. Then again, poetic language might be seen as pretentious and subsequently undesirable!
May the Force be with you. | |
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ksue44
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Joined: 6/20/2005
Msg: 53 | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 1:08:41 PM | | Myself, I prefer sex in a loving relationship. If I am just getting to know someone and I am being made to feel like a sex object, then I lose interest because I don't think the guy respects me apart from my "titties." Okay, its flattering that the guy thinks they're nice, but I am not looking for sex, I am looking for romance, a partner and THEN sex. I don't mind a few jokes about it, I'll even laugh (I know guys like and think about sex :p), but if I am made to feel uncomfortable and like a sex object, then I feel like telling them to go to the slummy side of town and pick up a streetwalker instead. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 5:22:50 PM |
Uh oh. You compare women to cars and don't understand why graphic sexual comeons are disrespectful? lol, no wonder you "don't understand". ;)
Oops, I knew that one would come back at me. 
The key word here is "MERELY". It is difficult for a woman to perceive the difference between
Bingo. Good one.
I was thinking last night on this, and was wondering. If being seen as a sex object is unwanted, why bother being sexy?
What is so wrong about seeing a woman as a sex object that I should be ashamed of myself?
And when I said I want it all, I meant that. I do want what's on the inside, and the outside. I want the brains, the personality, AND the sex object. Not "merely" the sex object. So, with that, I shouldn't be ashamed or guilty at all. Because that's a really good part that I don't want to get rid of and ignore, and I figure they don't want to get rid of it either, or else they'd stop trying. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 8:04:10 PM | I see it that way when you haven't taken the time to get to know the person well enough and over enough time where it would evolve to that naturally in person. I am so tired of people coming forth with the swear words for body parts right on meeting someone. What happened to tact? Anyone who brings up body parts in the first discussion/date will have me out the door like greased lightning. Womeon have a hard enough time keeping their self esteem about their bodies. A stranger out of nowhere making innuendos doesnt often go down well.
If you really do like someones "tits" try saying it a little more respectfully, and later on in your relationship/discussions with them, like "you have a really nice chest".
If you're both mutually in on an "intimate" online discussion (ahem), you could say how nice her breasts are, but please do away with the derrogatory words. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 9:09:24 PM | I would think the short of it is the difference between being treated like a whore or a girlfriend. Would you want someone to treat your mom or sister or female relative that way?
I think there's something to be said for dating & wooing rituals, & men should definately know their part if they want to make inroads with the female persuasion. I think it also depends on the type of relationship, long term as opposed to casual. It also depends on the type of relationships you have with the other people. For example, do you ever wonder why something you say to one female would be laughed at while another would take it as an insult? Maybe it's the combo of knowing the person enough to know the spirit in which they are saying something to you. You have to know the other person enough to know what they will or will not accept. It takes all kinds. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 9:13:46 PM | | hope i'm not insulting anyone here lol, but when im interested in a guy and he makes asexual comment or compliment, i take it as just that and im flattered...if however im not interested, it offends me..... | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 10:05:03 PM | I've heard this story multiple times. "My ex called me up and I haven't seen him in a year. He said he wanted to visit me, but then he brought up that he was horny. Can you believe how disrespectful he was being to me?" No...no I cannot. Because I just don't get it. It seems like a compliment to me. Are you just not good with compliments? I don't get it.
Obvioulsy if he hasn't seen me in a year I am not much of a priority..am I? If he is calling cz he is"horny" then he doesn't miss me ......but getting laid. This implies that I am interchangeable with anyone else who would lie there.. I hope you can at least grasp how that might make one feel.
"Nice tits" Crass, but....I think it it's a compliment. Why are you angry? Makes me kind of jealous that I don't have something like that to compliment
If I want to know what a random stranger thinks of my "tits"" (considered by many a crude word).. I will ask them..Watch me as I move hands as they do on the price is right at my mid section and ask.." So what do you think of these beauties ,nice, eh?
Why would you assume I need or want to hear whatever runs through your or another's mind? You do not really think that when I leave the house I am hoping some stranger will tell me what they think of my body. Do you? If I do not know you why would I care? I think it is rather nervy to foist your opinion on someone who hasn't asked for it especially about thier body parts. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 10:57:01 PM |
hope i'm not insulting anyone here lol, but when im interested in a guy and he makes asexual comment or compliment, i take it as just that and im flattered...if however im not interested, it offends me.....
This is being inconsistent. It is inconsistent to interpret the same comment differently merely based on how you feel about the source of the comment.
Perhaps what you mean to say is that the comment pleases you when made by a guy you're interested in because it is a sign that you will be able to achieve closeness with someone desirable. The comment itself, however, is different from this sign. How you feel about the comment is distinct from how you feel about the sign.
If you feel the comment is pleasant/unpleasant by nature, then you should interpret it in that way regardless of how you feel about the source. It seems illogical to do otherwise. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 11:01:58 PM | | well you have a point, but the fact is if its from someone i find attactive, it gives me a good feeling, as does a compliment. When it comes from someone i find unattractive, it makes me feel yucky and unsafe...as does an insult | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/14/2007 11:33:16 PM | If you feel the comment is pleasant/unpleasant by nature, then you should interpret it in that way regardless of how you feel about the source. It seems illogical to do otherwise.
I would be upset if my Bf said "i hate you" but not a two year old. I would feel good if my bf said I am falling in love with you..but not a stranger...Of course the source matters.. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 4:56:00 AM | | Women are by nature emotional and men are physical. Chances are if a woman cheats on her spouse she isn't doing it because her hubby is only giving it up once a week. If the husband strays chances are it is because his wife only gives it up once a week. Don't get me wrong I love great sex and often but if I don't feel safe emotionally the physical will suffer automatically by default and there is nothing I can do to change that. When the foundation is solid then it's safe to drop the reserved innocent routine, go home and unleash the freak only you know. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 5:11:29 AM | even though we are both aware that men and women get horney...
or are horney...
women do not like to speak directly (this is not an insult just an insight).
So a women may say things like, I want to spend time with you or would you like to come to my place for dinner...?
A man well say " nice shoes... want to f##K?"
It can mean the same thing but the part about being romanced... it is a nice (indirect way) for a women to say that she wants sex... but wants you to do the leg work first.
Not that there is anything wrong with that | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 6:55:49 AM |
when im interested in a guy and he makes asexual comment or compliment, i take it as just that and im flattered...if however im not interested, it offends me.....
To put it simply...there's a difference between being turned off and being insulted...I've been turned off by women who want nothing other than sex (yes, there are a few out there) ...but never have I felt insulted...no matter how unattractive she is....
...it's just a misinterpretation of your feelings... | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 10:01:54 AM | | I have talked about this in other forums but American Culture sees sex talk as somewhat taboo . European nations even our neighbors[CDA] , have no problem talking about sex. The perfect example is the big uproar about Janet Jacksons nipple that is brought up all the time. Violence seems to be acceptable but sexuality is shunned . I agree with the [op] . I see no problem with sex talk but it should be appropriate . | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 11:15:44 AM | OP- Cute and funny topic, also totally honest so why not try to "understand" something here right? I tried to read almost all the posts and think I got the gist of most of the comments: you're a pig, stupid, insensitive or whatever. Whatever!
"I want to have sex with you."
Guy: Thanks! I'm flattered. When and where?
Woman: I'm so insulted.
Lol- I love this comment! It makes me laugh because it is obviously funny to me, too. I guess I can be the "guy" too- lol! And these are feelings, not to be acted on at a moment's notice for those who seem to need to get a grip. Feelings are fun!
Dude, I think it has to do with how sexual you are... Personally I flirt with babies and old ladies, so when some guy gets my attention by just standing there, I look, I look again, I smile, I have no problem acting affected by their presence sexually (gasp!), would be happy to talk to them, happy to compliment them, happy to recieve compliments. I feel sorry for the poster who thinks women who enjoy their sexuality and enjoy men who enjoy their sexuality are "sluts" (that's ew to me)- lol!
So anyway not to go on, but obviously sexuality is one of the most unique things about each of us... I am receptive to people (especially men, duh) who are quite sexual by nature, meaning it's always kind of there. Maybe that's how you are. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Maybe try to pick up on personalities that are on that wavelength or whatever. It's fun! And no one has to know, it's just a sexual buzz. Could last a second or a lifetime (my personal favorite fantasy!). Dude, I swear to god if I am at the dx and see some old dude checking me out I make sure he knows I think that is great AND FLATTERING. Is that what you are talking about??????? Peace.  | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 8:45:55 PM |
If being seen as a sex object is unwanted, why bother being sexy?
What is so wrong about seeing a woman as a sex object that I should be ashamed of myself?
Nothing to be ashamed of, but a doomed strategy for wooing her, nonetheless.
I want to be desired as a woman, who happens to be sexy, not a "sex object".
In my mind, a "sex object" is one of those girlfriends you have but don't talk about openly...you know, the inflatable kind you hide from your mom under your bed. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 9:47:21 PM | Kudos to you judy...well said
Thanks Bracelady well it had to be said!!
BTW I have seen any number of posts from the OP and he seem quite an affable and intelligent guy..al along I have wondered if he Really "dsn't get it" or just likes hearing our opinions..and getting hits to his ad.....sssssssssssssh do no tell the OP i said this ..
either way I think it's been a fun thread. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 10:25:25 PM | You just have to remember one thing women are more indirect than men are. This means that if they are around a guy who is naturally good at sexual communication who isn't a pervert they know it. IF some guy just walks up to most women and says, "you have nice tits" Most women are going to be offended by this because you are only just looking at the visual. They think you are doing nothing more than looking at them as a sex object instead of a human being with hopes, dreams, brains, etc. THe ladies are right when they say the problem is using sexual humor and sexual compliments TOO EARLY. Now if your in the bedroom with a woman then you can use that stuff but not before. Your doing great by asking about women to further your understanding how most women think. It happens to the best of us!
Example: one time I was at the outback steakhouse and this waitress was flirting with me big time and I was doing the same back. Well, the third time she came back to my table as she was walking away she asked me how the food was. I got bold and said, "this food is better than sex." She goes and tells her manager the guy comes over and talks to me. I felt like I was in middle school. lol I was so happy that the manager knew me so he was really cool about letting me know that I offended the waitress. That was the ONLY time in my life I used something sexual while flirting with a woman.
I have heard that there is a really great program for men called Sexual Communication that teaches you have the smooth naturals (naturals are men who are naturally good at attracting women) that David Deangelo has out that is suppose to be really great at teaching men the right way how to communicate with women on a sexual level without being a pervert and scareing her off. Do a google search
Another thing you might do is try to imagine that your a woman....Now think really hard to yourself if you were a woman would you want some guy coming up to you and saying "nice tits" 100 times a day? | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 10:37:41 PM | I forgot to add: SOme men who really have their inner game (high confidence, masculine, humor, no insecurity issues, non approval seekers) naturals can sometimes get away with being overtly sexual too early as long as they say it in a confident/joking manner. Even so this totally still depends on what woman it is as to how she will process the communication from the guy. Example: Guy is at a bar and he is looking at the waitresses tits and she says to him, "what are you looking at?" He says to her back in a confident joking manner "I am lookin at your tits." Some men can get away with this but most would not. So I would recommend NOT using any sexual humor or sexual comments with women too early at all.
Question: why aren't all the working class single women in Canada (30's 40's) moving down here to date me yet? (smile/wink) | |
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pensky
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Joined: 12/19/2006
Msg: 73 | |
| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/15/2007 11:01:42 PM | Dear ukobalt,
Some women seem to handle it better than others. Some women, maybe, even seem to appreciate such comments? I can only speak for myself. I very rarely want to be reminded of sex, unless I'm about to get some. And I wish I had a big male guardian angel with me to grunt at men who made innuendos in my direction.
I don't mind dealing with it with people I've actually had sex with--that's different. My ex-husband is vulgar at times. We still go out occasionally and I'm flattered by his comments, even though he is a little on the obnoxious side. He's my people.
See, women just aren't thinking about sex all the time. That's why the "ew". | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/16/2007 12:27:13 AM | i dont actually care if a guy brings up a topic like sex early on...Ia m comfortable with it but i think the problem is a maturity issue...if your just trying to fit the words anal, boobs, and blow job into the conversation cuz they make ya giggle then i can see how it is a turn off.
I think there is a time and place...and quantity...and quality of talk...no one wants to hear about the asian gang bang videos you love...but an incidental mention in normal conversation is different. | |
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| Tell me why bringing up sexual topics is disrespectful
Posted: 1/16/2007 2:25:17 AM | ukobalt: The very fact that you have pursued this through so many messages and invested so much time in it is proof alone that you failed already. You have failed to notice the basic truth that it exists and to work with it, rather than trying to ANALyze the hell out of it.
I can analyze with the best of them so I'll offer this analogy:
Everyday you get into your car, you turn the key the solenoid engages which spins the starter and engine and away you go to work. Do you know about those exact processes and why they work? Maybe, maybe not.
Even if you know a whole bunch of scientific jargon about them like there is 6.02 times ten to the eighteenth power of electrons(defined as a Coloumb...spelling?) running through one wire in one second to make up one Ampere of current... you still do not know HOW it works. You know IT WORKS. You use it, you go to work.
This issue is the same way. I'll tell you I have studied electronics for the better part of my life and the most ironic thing to me is that our society absolutely REVOLVES around magnetism. That car starter has permanent magnets in it as well as an electromagnetic core. Almost all of our electricity, be it coal or nuclear or wind or hydroelectric is ALL produced with magnetism. There is not a single thing you can do today which magnetism has not touched on... your clothes made on sewing machines, your food brought by diesels with alternators... or maybe trains which are diesel/electric hybrid technology, your water pumped by electric motors with magnets in them. Magnetism impacts almost ALL of your life.
The strange thing is this-- We don't know what magnetism is. Period.
But we do have seven rules of magnetism and magnetic forces andwhen those are followed we are succesful. This is why magnetism is in every single area of your life. Someone listened to and utilized the natural order of things. I suggest you apply this model to this question. Accept what you have little probability in changing. Learn the rules and benefit. | |
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