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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 3:19:39 PM | Lyrical
I read the judgement, and I think it is sound also.
The mother showed shall we say an uncharacteristic sense of responsibility in her choice of adoption by the couple.
The ex-father is clearly a man with some substantial problems both past and possibly future.
For all of the tooth gnashing etc, the courts have to consider the interests of the child first and foremost, not the mother, not the father, the child. As I said this judgement was a good, if not easy one. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 3:21:37 PM | She presented only half the story, read it for yourself.
The judge concluded that the father and fiancee may very well have a stable home, independent audit done. The key to the story is the adoptive parents being able to hire "an expert" psychologist to testify ripping the child away during the bonding process is damaging.
Where the father had squat, not even social services would help him. Again if this were a mother 5 rights groups/social service programs would've stepped forward with help
How many times is a drug user mother able to "clean up" while her child is in foster care? Why could not the same thing happen here until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt the father is a stable environment. If that was even required, which in my opinion wasn't. Read the pdf Javaqueen posted before you pass your bias judgement.
The crucial point in this is the judge favoured an "educated" woman and her husband over a guy with Grade 9..........tell me there is no class system in this country. Reading through the paper the judge commented most on the fact that alot of the parties came from alcoholic homes......not that they were alcoholics........how many of you are the same.....would you like your parental ability judged on this fact? | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 3:29:37 PM |
- he has a grade 9 education
- has an alcohol problem, and has admitted he has abused alcohol in the past
- he blamed the bad relationshiop with the mother for him drinking "that one time" and hitting her
- when he was 20 he had a daughter who was put up for adoption by his and the mothers choice, and althoug open he does not purport to have a father/daughter relationship
- he married a drug user who had 2 children, lots of Social Services involvement, she left him in 1998 and they are still legally married although he is now engaged to someone else
- he states that all of his relationshiops have eneded "badly"
- his current income cannot be substantiated and he has not filed income taxes for over 3 years and acknoledged he will likley have a debt with Revenue Canada when he does
- he declared bankruptcy in 2002
- his fiance also grew up with alcoholic parents and has been married 3 times before and is 8 years older than the father, who is 34
Neither one of them are fit, so the best interest does seem to be with the adoptive parents.
Although I can understand "flipping the coin", Im frankly getting sick and tired of trying to twist the story around to accomodate ones stance. In THIS particular ruling, hearing the pro's and con's, I think child should reside with adoptive, as both bio. mom and dad dont seem to be fit. Sad a child had to be brought into this world with parents like that, but, at least child will have an opportunity to not grow up in poverty and unfit parents. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 3:41:02 PM | Long read,
Money talks doesn't it, as well as having a degree makes you a better parent.
Lets see how this will unfold with the child now later in life.Will this be kept from the child?
Even so,he will find out and either the adoptive parents will, in his opinion, look bad or the biological parents.
Being adopted i know this would have been a concern for me, as even though parents raise you,there is somthing about a biological connection.
I am interested if anything comes out of this .Will Rose be held accountable for her actions and will there be any change of the procedures putting a child up for adoption. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 3:52:30 PM |
as well as having a degree makes you a better parent.
This was never mentioned for why adoptive parents have custody.
Being adopted i know this would have been a concern for me, as even though parents raise you,there is somthing about a biological connection.
Not in all cases. My mother was adopted, and has known since she was 9 days old. My mother found her birth mother after over 40 yrs. She was raised in a loving home and never had a major need for any other 'parent' connection. After her mother passed, and she had myself and brother, she got to wondering because we were doing family tree's in school. She opted to search for med. reasons. Never did feel that she had or wanted that bio. connection. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:01:36 PM | Treeman.......I take huge offense to you labeling the 'adoptive parents as greedy, and total strangers?
^^^^^^^^^ Says it all, no education, drinking problem, already has a daughter that he has not contact with...Geesh who in their right mind would want a child to go to a bio father like that????????okay turning the tables now or to the bio-mother.
Believe me big boy.. as an adoptive parent the shit that my ex and I had to go through in order to receive the most precious gift that anyone could ever give to me was incredible. Our lives were an open book ...our application form was 42 pages long (typewritten)and the only thing they didn't ask us is which hand we wipe our butts with. Before our adoption could go through the bio father was petitioned (mandatory) He did not step up to the plate.
Over the yrs in order to try to conceive I have had 13 surgeries, right after one surgery they just about lost me within 3 hrs of the surgery. Infertility is huge strain on a relationship, my ex was ridiculed by his friends and family that 'he wasn't man enough not to just be shooting blanks' We were always the last to find out that friends or family were expecting babies because no one wanted to tell us as they all knew what we were/had gone through.
Two yrs prior to us getting my now daughter we had another adoption fall through as the birth mom changed her mind 18 days after the baby was born, I was on maternity leave, friends put on a huge baby shower. Both of the girls are mine whether I gave birth or not to both of them. When we had to take the first baby back it was like getting my heart physically ripped out of my chest. We went to counselling and yes we did grieve that little baby that was taken back. Adoption is very costly adoptive parents pay more to become parents than what most bio parents spend in the first 5 yrs of their children's lives..
Sorry for getting off topic but damn I am an adoptive parent and I am defiently not greedy.
P.S. Our adoption is open but we no longer have any contact with either of her bio parents. Yearly I send pics and along letter to the bio mom. We left this decision totally up to my daughter. Due to the openness of our adoption I know for a fact that my daughter has a better life living with me than she ever would of had with her bio mother. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:04:52 PM | Adoptive parents are not considered strangers. There are extensive background checks that are performed before being awarded a child. Yet, this man with a history of neglect to his first born, alcohol abuse that led to a physical altercation being held up on a pedastol?  | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:19:15 PM |
Adoptive parents are not considered strangers. There are extensive background checks that are performed before being awarded a child. Yet, this man with a history of neglect to his first born, alcohol abuse that led to a physical altercation being held up on a pedastol?
Okay, but why should Adoptive Parent have to submit to this... But a Bio-parent doesn't. Disney I have the up most respect for you... But prior to be allowed to give birth to your child why was your life not put into a microscope? And you were not asked a whole lot of questions about your choices? And how your going to be able to raise your child? ext..
I agree for the most part it doesn't sound like either Mom or Dad are suitable people to be parents... But if Mom had simply decided to keep the child, this entire conversation about her ability, and background would not even come into play.
Meaning that by virtue of being "Mom" you are afforded more rights then Dad. And that simply should not be the case. I know of plenty of single moms, as I'm sure you do, that simply should not be parents. But until they do something to show they are an unfit parent to that particular child, they are given the benefit of the doubt.
And he should be allowed the same opportunity to do the same. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:23:14 PM | He is not being held on a pedestal he is being afforded the same rights the mother would've been allowed. And yes the fact that the adoptive mother was a "professional" was a factor in the decision.
If a woman decided to give her first born up for adoption when she made a concious decision that she was not ready for it and keep the 2nd, when she felt she was, no one would say anything but apparently for a man its a sign of deadbeatism. Funny how he is being villified for the same thing the mother did in this case, and for her it was a "smart" decision.
Again bias. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:27:54 PM | Ahh i knew you were Capricorn.
Pretty much everything has been posted here and opinions will be what they may.
I hope this won't make it more dificult for parents adopting as it is hard enough.
All the hoops to jump through for them and now, as a biological father, this will set a pecident in which they will have to jump through hoops too. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:30:00 PM |
If a woman decided to give her first born up for adoption when she made a concious decision that she was not ready for it and keep the 2nd, when she felt she was, no one would say anything but apparently for a man its a sign of deadbeatism. Funny how he is being villified for the same thing the mother did in this case, and for her it was a "smart" decision.
East... Very well put. Very valid point in there. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 4:59:59 PM | All the fish that don't know... you realize the the Judgement is written in such that it has to favor the judge's decision.
For starters not to offend any Canadian FISH.....
Your courts and adoptive situation are F'ed up! F'ed up !F'ed up!
Pretty much the government said.... hey they got more money...period!
I do applaud the government for moving the case so quick. Little Ian would have been 10-12 here. Also the Judge for informing the Adoptive's Dr that Psychology is an "ART" not a "SCIENCE".
Though I got a long and rough battle with my government. I am so so glad to be in USA.
So many points.
First off I truly believe this child will be best off if with the Adoptive parents(even though the Dad is 47 and a equipment operator) if it was done as it is done here in Maryland.
Once a child is put up for adoption ( or the courts take from parents{which a parent/s have to be REALLY screwed up and a LONG LONG process here}) ...
That's it. bio parents lose ALL contact.
Here the grandmother is friends of the adoptive parents. She went to them. It's clear in the agreement that the bio mom got to pick the family, help pick the name and upon contract get to stay involved with the adoptive family if they agree.
First off all that is WRONG.... Secondly IMHO is not healthy for the child.
Now all that said... As the judge went into the GF's parents history...(again the judge has to write a judgement to imply his decision) I am amazed at how bad the dad is suppose to be,
No mention of criminal record, even term of supervision by judicial system .Only a drunk charge of 1989...(Um was he 17?) No mention of hospital stay in an institution.
Basically he has the 1/2 @ss drama that half the these threads are full of and he is POOR...
In closing his attorney was worthless. Probable slipped this guy a release statement to sign so the "Father's for Justice" have rights to any publication deals.
This father's group is as bad the womens abuse groups i posted on this morning.
Again his attorney was a PIECE of SHYTE.
Had that case been here in Maryland or he had a better attorney he may have gotten custody..
I'm really scartching my head why,,, his attorney
A) Didn't clean his finances up
B) Why he hired a half as psychologist( report written strictly on Chatts...WTF?)
C) Why he let the gf's ....parents...back ground into the case
D) Why he even let his client testifly the way he did(sure wasn't coached)
E) Why even with the 8 months he didn't get the Father in his "best" (job/housing/some classes under his belt)
the aforementioned is only the tip of the iceberg, but I only had the 109 point judgement to read. There written to fit the judges actions anyway.
It's true lyrical girls paraphrase of the case, but it really ain't shyte.
Just reading it made me give my daughter a hug. My heart would fight for the child , but my mind thinks that maybe the best is for the adoption, but only if
ALL....I mean A-L-L ties are cut..period.
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 5:23:48 PM | Hi java queeen
We don't know. Since, the way it is written, it looks like a one-time occurance (no mention of a long history of this), I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
When it comes to a child I have a hard time with "the benefit of the doubt" when it comes to excessive drinking and violence.
Some people take Years to get sober..some never do, couple that with the fairly Low success
rate of anger management when it comes to domestic violence and you get a big fat "maybe".
If the child is definetly in a good situation why take him/her from that good situation with 2 parents and place them in a doubtful situation with one iffy parent?
I'd like to know more of the specfics..Usually domestic violence is no "one time thing".D)
Why he even let his client testifly the way he did(sure wasn't coached)
E) Why even with the 8 months he didn't get the Father in his "best" (job/housing/some classes under his belt)
Since the child has been with the adoptive parents from the start,,has bonded with them and the bio dad still has to get it together on all these fronts..then indeed I think they make the btter choice.
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 5:52:22 PM | THIS is the part that bothers me:
"It is clear that they present an environment that will best provide for his health, education, emotional well-being, opportunity for training and economic and intellectual pursuits," Smith said.
SO basically, the courts based their decision on the financial situations of the two parties. If the court actually said this... then they did not choose this family because of some alleged abuse, they did it because one family had more money.
What kind of precedent does this set? I may not be well off... sometimes the power bill gets paid a month late, does that mean that someone who lives 7 blocks away, in a more affluent neighbourhood, with more cars, more toys and more money is a better parent?
uhm..... HELL NO
sick... just sick | |
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*Tee*
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Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 40 | |
| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 6:13:10 PM | Why does everyone go on about the monetary aspect of it?? EMOTIONAL well being seems to be overlooked here, and thats what I would worry about most. Not to mention, lets be realistic here, raising a child is NOT cheap. I'm not talking about buying them all the latest bells and whistles, I'm talking about just normal everyday needs that a child needs as years go by.
It was stated that this man still couldn't hold a job, not to mention hes gone bankrupt and hasn't filed taxes for years. If he can't even take care of himself, hows he going to take care of a child??? Just the alcohol problems should make you stop and wonder.
If you're all going to sit here and say that seeing evidence of a man that isn't capable of taking care of himself, and hasn't even taken part in his other childs life is going to be a better parent because hes the biological parent, you're all fooling yourselves here. Lets face it, given the evidence that this judge had, he made the right decision for that child. He was faced with two choices, and I doubt any of you being faced with those same two choices, would choose the biological father with all those issues, over a couple who has proven to be stable, to raise this child. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 6:17:49 PM |
Okay, but why should Adoptive Parent have to submit to this... But a Bio-parent doesn't. Disney I have the up most respect for you... But prior to be allowed to give birth to your child why was your life not put into a microscope? And you were not asked a whole lot of questions about your choices? And how your going to be able to raise your child? ext..
Any parent should. But thatll never happen. Good question. I know that there are some that should not be out there breeding when they cannot take care of their first born. Stop pro-creating if you cant take care of them.
Thank you, as I have equal respect to you also. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 6:20:11 PM | Money???? Well here you go...first the judge said...
90) The birth father had the benefit of an extremely supportive mother
and family and suggested that the environment he could offer met or exceeded
that of the adoptive parents. Rothery J. noted at paras.
Then went on to conclude with his opening statements as
Interpt it how you like
95) I conclude from all the evidence, without hesitation, that Ian’s best
interests are served by granting custody to the Turners. It is clear that they
present an environment that will best provide for his health, education, emotional
well being, opportunity for training and economic and intellectual pursuits.
96) This conclusion must not be interpreted as a determination that
someone is wrong and someone is right. The focus is the best interests, now and
in the future, for Ian. I know that each of the parties, in their own way, hopes for
the same.
Northem fish... Are these judges appointed...or elected.
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 6:38:29 PM |
How many times is a drug user mother able to "clean up" while her child is in foster care?
Gotta assume in alliance with this case i9n Canada....um 8 months
I mean the father started may 2006... and case is closed???right?
Here in maryland the mom's don't clean up..... Courts hold a 10 month review after 10 month review, after 10 month review...........( while child is held in temp. foster care case floating not closed/no adoption available)
I personally was witnessing (by docket #'s AND courtroom viewing mom's getting 3, 4 and 5 years)
For phucks sake... I was shoveling money,lawyerS,andMY petitions at the courts and they STILL give my X over 2 years.
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 6:47:32 PM |
It was stated that this man still couldn't hold a job, not to mention hes gone bankrupt and hasn't filed taxes for years. If he can't even take care of himself, hows he going to take care of a child??? Just the alcohol problems should make you stop and wonder.
That said, lets take the case of a 15yr old girl who has a child. Most teenagers are not able to care for themselves properly on their own, let alone another child... Yet no one would ever force her to give up the child... As a matter of fact we would take it one step further and do our best in society to allow this girl to attend school.. Provide ample supports in daycare funding... Heck even hand over money for Education.
So the argument simply because he hasn't been able to hold a job isn't enough to say he is not a good father... Or could be a good father..
If you're all going to sit here and say that seeing evidence of a man that isn't capable of taking care of himself, and hasn't even taken part in his other childs life is going to be a better parent because hes the biological parent, you're all fooling yourselves here. Lets face it, given the evidence that this judge had, he made the right decision for that child. He was faced with two choices, and I doubt any of you being faced with those same two choices, would choose the biological father with all those issues, over a couple who has proven to be stable, to raise this child.
As mentioned by East in a previous post.. If a mom were give up her first child for adoption... For whatever reason, then decides to keep the 2nd one... She would be allowed.. And no one would ever even inquire as to why she gave up the first one. And as mentioned she would even receive praise for action of giving up the first child to ensure it was in a good home.
Your right the judge was put in a difficult position. And in some regards I do agree with the decision given down. As both the Mother and Father are probably not capable parents.
But if we set a precedent like this, and allow judges to simply make these kind of decisions as to who is a worthy parent, or not a worthy parent... For reasons other then simple safety of the child... Then we may as well start creating a licensing system for people to become parents... Insist they meet certian criteria before allowing them to have kids... | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 7:45:17 PM | I still, after reading the judgement again, fail to see how this bio father was denied custody rights due to his financial position alone.
In terms of providing a stable home, this guy is married and living with another woman, one who had been divorced three times prior. This guy had another child he willingly gave up for adoption. and although still open, has no father/daughter relationship and could not recall the birthdate. This guy is an alcoholic having admitted he has abused alcohol "to a considerable degree". This guy admits that less than year before he was providing the mother wih dope. This guy had one violent episode he blames stresses on the relationship on (what about the stresses inherent of having a baby - how would he deal with that?). He has been involved wit two women who were admitted heavy drug users and admits he is attracted to women "on the wild side" and "vulnerable women with drug problems and a hiostory of abuse". so far, no mentione of financial aspects, just a litancy of reaons this guy was not awarded custody of this child. He cannot prove an income, and has evaded filing incoe taxe reurns for three years and likely will face a debt with Revenue Canada. He has declared bankruptcy in 2002. He has been hospitalized fore depression. This guys current girlfriendf grew up in an abusive home as well, and all three of her exes were abusive alcoholics. Her two grown children are drug addicts. The social worker he himself retained stated they culd benefir from counselling and were co-dependent on one another.
The adoptive parents by the time the application was filed had the baby for 8 months. Think about your child at 8 months - you cannot tell me the bond and attachment has not been fuly developed at that time. The adoptive parents went through proper legal channels to adopt, so should be give rights in a court of law.
This is about best interests of the child, not the rights of the father - AS IT SHOULD BE.
(a) have regard only for the best interests of the child
and for that purpose shall take into account:
(i) the quality of the relationship that the child has
with the person who is seeking custody and any
other person who may have a close connection with
the child;
(ii) the personality, character and emotional needs
of the child;
(iii) the physical, psychological, social and economic
needs of the child;
(iv) the capacity of the person who is seeking
custody to act as legal custodian of the child;
(v) the home environment proposed to be provided
for the child;
(vi) the plans that the person who is seeking
custody has for the future of the child; and
(vii) the wishes of the child, to the extent the court
considers appropriate, having regard to the age and
maturity of the child;
(b) not take into consideration the past conduct of any
person unless the conduct is relevant to the ability of
that person to act as a parent of a child;
No mention of how much money the person is required to earn to be considered as it does not matter.
The test judges rely on is as follows, as stated in King v. Low, supra,:
"This is not to say that the question of custody will be determined by weighing the economic circumstances of the contending parties. The matter will not be determined solely on the basis of the physical comfort and material advantages that may be available in the home of one contender or the other. The welfare of the child must be decided on a consideration of these and all other relevant factors, including the general psychological, spiritual and emotional welfare of the child. It must be the aim of the Court, when resolving disputes between rival claimants for the custody of a child, to choose the course which will best
provide for the healthy growth, development and education of the child so that he will be equipped to face the problems of life as a mature adult. Parental claims must not be lightly set aside, and they are entitled to serious consideration in reaching any conclusion. Where it is clear that the welfare of the child requires it, however, they must be set aside."
Also, even though the adoptive parents had hired a pshychologist to testify, the JUDGE REJECTED HIS ARGUMENT. The mere fact that the judge ruled the baby's attachment to his adoptive parents and seperating the baby from them would not be an issue, serves to show just how the bio dad was not in the best interest of the child.
To unequivocably state it ws the fnancial positon of the bio dad that rendered the decision, or that his rights were "trampled", I feel is entirely incorrect.
Also, bear in mind a few of the case law cited were DIFFERENT cases than this one. Cases are used as pecedent in future cases and these were referred to because they assisted the judge on forning his judgement, with law already argued before the courts. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 8:00:00 PM | Wow... I am glad that my son's father never went for custody and put my life under a microscope like that when I was 20... I was about as messed up as this poor guy, if not worse. 
Oh, wait a minute... that's right, I'm the mom... I would have been just fine....... | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 8:04:08 PM | Lyrical.... to you really feel okay with the whole way the judical process has now placed ONE judge with the power of 18 years of a child's life???
Plus the whole shady deal of each parents roll?
She actuallly testified against the bio dad for the kid to be adopted.WTF??
Just wondering... Our thinking is rather close of the interest of the child to a degree.
TRUST me I can throw more case law then you could EVER EVER read in the states where parents 10 times worse then this still have there kids.
You have your government deciding how to construct a family.Again WTF....
What's really ironic is the preaching of money by the judge, but care to tell me how many government contracts in Canada are over ran, and racking up of debt???
Okay for the government to not be financial responsible and keep a clean house withthe tax payers money, but this surely was a decided what the bio DAD "MIGHT" earn in the next 2 decades...
Looks like Canada could be headed from family planning as the likes of china....Hummmmm...
Java... that's funny, but not funny..... I got a pretty impressive last 20 years, no drugs or DV, but my first few sheets of my FBI sheet are pretty nasty.
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 8:07:49 PM | Lyrical:
I do agree with you... From the sounds of it this guy probably isn't the poster child for being a father. However that said why is it that the mother got to choose where the child ended up with no say from the father.
Also he was categorically denied the ability to be the Parental Father to this child. Was granted after 1 year he may have access to this child, but informed he will never be in charge of the well being of this child.
I again ask, if this were a woman, would we be singing the same tune. If a Mom who has evaded taxes.. Been a Drug Abuser, alcoholic ext.. Stands in front of a judge and vows to change her ways the adoption would be left open, and she would have a chance to prove herself after a period of time that she can care for the child. And then take custody back.
Why can't the same set of rules be applied here. Simply be told that after 1 year if can prove to the courts how he has cleaned up... Held a stable job... ext... Why should he not be allowed to care for his son.
I agree the welfare of the child must be paramount in all decisions handed down by the courts. And I do applaud them for taking that into account. But essentially this decision of where the child would reside, and the family whom would take of him for life, was decided on by Mom... With 0 input from dad.
Also in this case a stable Blood Relative was available to look after the child. To keep the child with in the family. And ensure the safety of the child. But that again was dismissed because Mom had already made up her mind on something else.
Point is this guy had his rights as Dad simply stripped away from him. And I just have trouble imagining of the same set of rules being levied against mom. I trouble believing that courts, no matter the condition of mom, simply telling her to bad, so sad you will never be allowed to be the parental parent of this child again. There would be outrage from the public at large.
I know children are stripped away from Moms on a daily basis and placed in Foster Care. But in this case, the child is not simply in Foster Care until he can prove himself worthy... He has been told to bad, so sad, you are no longer Dad. | |
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| Biological father loses custody to adoptive parents
Posted: 1/29/2007 8:12:10 PM | All I have to ask is when do they start the mass sterilization program........as this is where this is ultimately headed.
The point of the arguement was not that this guy has not had problems in his life but in how is this case any different than your typical methamphetamine mother, strung out and having kids?
Let me know when they sterilize her as she's not fit to take care of her children...........or don't ever screw up in your life as it admittedly will curse you for your life and the life of your children. | |
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