| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 10:54:36 AM | exavier: the point is though that SOMEBODY'S going to be poor. It might not be your brothers and sisters, but that's the way it works. Some jobs will be in low demand and others not. The reason some people make more than others is because of this. If we had 50 million nuclear physicists and 1 million nuclear physicist JOBS and only 1 million who cold sweep floors and 50 million floor sweeping jobs, then floor sweepers would make more than nuclear physicists and that's the ONLY reason they'd make more.
Do you understand this? | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 10:58:39 AM | Yes I do understand that!!!!! Any logical person can figure that out.
Like I said a couple posts up....
I thought that the POINT was. Everyone has the same Opportunity as every one else. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 10:58:55 AM | | I know that's an unpopular alternative to most people, but there are also scholarships for people who do well in school, regardless of color. If I had been motivated enough to concentrate on getting the best grades I could have gotten a scholarship. Or, if I had concentrated on athletic scholarship and such. Unfortunately, you pretty much need a college degree to do anything that pays nowadays. The Unions are almost dead, and I will never be able to work a job like my father had, at GM. Those are the kind of jobs that you could raise a family on without a degree. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:08:09 AM |
Yes I do understand that!!!!! Any logical person can figure that out.
Well the thread is "Why do people try and live off minimum wage.".
My argument is that it's a moot point because SOMEBODY (it doesn't matter who) is going to be making low wages, no matter what they do and have to live on it.
This is the final analysis of capitalism: Of course, some people will try harder than others, but that's not even the point. EVERYONE can't be doing good.
It's like Descartes and his "humunculus" (that pulls the levers and makes our bodies work) in the middle of the brain. Who is the Humunculus' humunculus? Who is the boss of the boss of the boss? Who gets more education than whom, than whom, than whom?
Someone's always going to have more and someone's always going to have less. Those who have less will be poorer than the others...
Stupid thread. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:08:11 AM |
I guess I thought he was simply saying that everyone in America has the opportunity to better themselves.
Be.. if you came from a poor family or a rich family.
That is exactly the point.
Everyone has the opportunity to create a better life for themselves. It is the defeatists that say 'well we have to have a certain number of floor sweepers' when they really mean 'I might as well not try anymore, we need floor sweepers'.
I was white and poor, I chose not to stay that way and I worked hard. Guess what happened? I'm still white but I'm not poor... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:10:34 AM | I think we have to differentiate between the ability to 'better oursleves' and the tax structure and income levels
1) Yes, everyone has the ability to better themselves. There are rules set into place however that allow certain elements of society to better themselves more easily ( umm my caste I guess.. white middle class male club). Genereally I had more liesure time, less fear in my environment, more exposure to the idea of bettering myself as a person. If you are a minority and born into poverty, you're idea of making it is exactly what is espoused by the rightists in this forum. You try hard , get rich. Like drug dealers and pimps. Unbridaled capatilism at work.
2) The inherent rules. Certain classes of people are 'looked down upon' by the controlling factions, mostly because they have encountered the poor of that class and stereotyped the mojority of that class of person as being the same; needey, wanting, uncouth.
If you are in this class of people, you don't get let into the big boys club. You are evaluated differently, with greater amounts of critisim and a higher expectation. Its harder to get a promotion above certain glass celiengs. While I will conceed that this is changing, don't forget that less than 50 years ago, blatant racsism was an accepted act in North America. Things haven't been corrected yet. You arn't exposed to education becuase your parents are a) too busy working, b) havn't had an education themselves to show you, c) are crack addicts. Hence the idea of
3) Again, supposedly productive capacity of the country in question ( in my case Canada, in others America) is supposedly maximized under capatalism. Its supposed to be the most efficient system for generation of wealth. But the size of the pie is then fixed. And some portion should go to maintaining the society that enabled the creation of the wealth, lest it crumble. When you're rich you're eligible for tax credits and all sorts of 'comps'. When you're poor , the bank pays you a percentage point below prime on your savings account which you can't afford to risk. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:13:59 AM | Well the thread is "Why do people try and live off minimum wage.".
My argument is that it's a moot point because SOMEBODY (it doesn't matter who) is going to be making low wages, no matter what they do and have to live on it.
This is the final analysis of capitalism: Of course, some people will try harder than others, but that's not even the point. EVERYONE can't be doing good.
It's like Descartes and his "humunculus" (that pulls the levers and makes our bodies work) in the middle of the brain. Who is the Humunculus' humunculus? Who is the boss of the boss of the boss? Who gets more education than whom, than whom, than whom?
Someone's always going to have more and someone's always going to have less. Those who have less will be poorer than the others...
Yes! Agree.
Econmomics: Intro.
I think the post turned somewhere on page two though. that is where I was going from. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:15:00 AM | I think way too many people see college as their only way to success. And maybe our society pushes people in that direction. One the avenues not pushed as hard as it should be is vocational school. We can outsource all the jobs we want but we can't get rid of electricians and plumbers. We need them and lot's of other skilled trades. Heck, I do alright with two masters degrees but I have a friend that never went to college and he runs a small resturant. With his bonus, he whips my butt in salary. And all he's ever done is show up for work and done his job the best he can. He's not special or unique. Just responsible and hard working.
What workers today have to understand is that the world has changed. The day's of learning to make a shoe and making the entire shoe your entire life is over. I need interchangable skill sets today. If I'm working and I'm not taking at least one class every 6 months or making myself more marketable, I'm going to be left behind. and that goes for anyone. I work for a company that has 500 hourly employees. You've probably played with our playing cards. And we will pay for anyone to go to college or trade school. Last year, one hourly person used that money to go to school. One in 500. And I'll guarentee when the economy shifts, that one person will be prepared and the other will get left behind. And who will they blame? Somoene else.
I grew up the son of a fire man. We wern't rich by any standard. I grew up in a rough town where most people worked for a paper company that was dying and a railroad that was dying. And I knew it. I knew those jobs would not be there for me. But my parents valued my education and made a lot of sacrifises so that I could have an education. I'm not special or exceptionally bright. But I do know what it means to be prepared. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:15:21 AM | But watchman, you're still not Rich!
and Kadmus: you do realize that the only reason you were able to raise YOUR standard of living was because there were people who have a lower standard than you who didn't do as much. Right?
It's only because of the inequality that you were able to get more!
... so why the question "Why do people try and live off minimum wage?" if someone's always going to make "the least"?
It's STUPID. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:19:43 AM |
Someone's always going to have more and someone's always going to have less. Those who have less will be poorer than the others...
but it's not a zero sum gain. Capital is constantly growing. Just because some people get richer doesn't mean that other get poorer (if by poorer you mean they have less than they did before).
Capital grows through investiment. And if the owners of my company invest in my company and we work hard and that investiment pays off, we may need to hire new workers. Now those new workers are the beneficiary of someone else getting richer. But they get wealthier too. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:23:29 AM | kadmus: but something is only worth more because something else is worth less.
"Zero sum" means nothing is gained.
Of course, it's possible to gain, but only because some people do lower paying work. If everyone did the same thing, we couldn't function as a society. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:25:43 AM | | I agree that if we all did the same thing, we couldn't function. A Beautiful Mind proved that. And some skills are more valuable than others. And some skills are hard to get and therefore there should be a finacial insentive to get them. I would never become a doctor if I could make the same amount being a floor sweeper with a lot less education. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:31:21 AM | | I made the most of my situation, when I didn't have the money to pay for the lawyer to get custody of my daughter, I sold drugs. There are oppurtunities, but don't get pissed and look down on me when I take advantage of the ones in front of me. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:42:36 AM | kadmus: yes... and even though you are trained as a doctor, if there were 50,000 trained doctors and only money enough in the economy from all companies who hired doctors to pay 10,000 doctors needed, if you weren't among the 10,000, you'd have to work at something else...
Yes, you can criticize individuals for not trying hard enough or not working at all IF they have an opportunity to do it... but with college tuitions as high as they are in most US states and wages as low; many people aren't able to do that. It's not like Canada where education is more affordable. There are people down here who live in places without hot water...They're not going to be able to attend universities. It's possible they go to classes where the teacher doesn't even TEACH. There are schools like that in the US.... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:42:40 AM | Why are some Jobs more valuable then others?
When I worked at a Union Shop the Cleaners were the lowest paid positions. Yet when they were backed up or short staffed the walk ways would fill up with waste till you reached a point where you could not do your job till things were cleaned up.
On the other hand the CEO could take a week off and the plant kept running.
So whose job was more vital to the operation?
Watchman, because the Rich are scewing all of us. If they paid their fair share youy would have more. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:53:30 AM |
Watchman, because the Rich are scewing all of us. If they paid their fair share youy would have more.
The rich ARE paying their fair share. If the 50% of America that only pays 2% of the tax revenue were to start paying THEIR fair share then I could keep more of my own money... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 11:58:06 AM | SO watchman thinks 50% of the taxpayers should pay ninety-eight times the rate they're paying now OR he thinks the federal government should cut spending by 98%...
UH... which is it, watchie?
Sharpen your pencil there sport?
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 12:01:40 PM | Sport, you've already demonstrated your inability to comprehend the economy and most topics that have to do with rational thought.
I'm not about to give you a second semester of Economics 101 after you so miserably failed the first one... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 12:06:29 PM |
Watchman... well my reasoning is this: you complain the bottom HALF of taxpayers pay less than 1% of the taxes.
Well, if we have the same government expenditures as YOUR president George W. Bush signed into budget this year, that means that in order for them to pay as much as everyone else, they'd have to pay 50% of the taxes... which is about 98 times what they're paying now. OR...
We COULD cut the government spending to make it so EVERYONE ELSE pays the same as the bottom 50%... but then you'd have to cut government spending by 98%... right?
1 + 1 makes 2... or don't your figures agree?
Please advise
Don't be embarassed by a school janitor again watchman!!!
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 12:24:35 PM |
Why are some Jobs more valuable then others?
When I worked at a Union Shop the Cleaners were the lowest paid positions. Yet when they were backed up or short staffed the walk ways would fill up with waste till you reached a point where you could not do your job till things were cleaned up.
On the other hand the CEO could take a week off and the plant kept running.
So whose job was more vital to the operation?
It's supply and demand. There are a lot more people that can do the clearner job than can do the CEO job. Furthermore, while you saw the impact of the cleaner job, you really only saw part of the picture of your plant. If the CEO makes poor decisions, good chance no one could have a job. But even if he only does the minimum, other companies could pass you by causing the slow death of your company, leading to layoff's etc. But if the CEO makes good decisions, the company could grow meaning jobs are more stable, income can go up, and more people are hired.
Now some CEO's are good and some are not so good. The company I work for got a new CEO a few years ago and it has turned this company around. It's stronger than it's ever been -- pretty good for an 138 year old company. Workers are happy and we're hiring more people. But it's because this CEO makes good decisions and we've executed. I my opinion, he's worth every penny because of the wealth and prosparity he's brought to the stockholders and our workers. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 12:28:38 PM |
but with college tuitions as high as they are in most US states and wages as low; many people aren't able to do that.
That's a bunch of BS. They choose not to do that. You want a college education? Go join the military, and quit ****ing about how it's everyone elses fault but your own. | |
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