| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 9:42:06 AM | watchman and malt: Okay.... we've decided that everyone should try to better themselves... fine and dandy...but that still doesn't address the fact that the wages for jobs aren't paying enough for people to live on.
If you've got 100 people who are educated to do jobs that make enough to live on, but only have jobs that PAY enough to live on for 60 of them, then we're going to have 40 people that are either out of work or underemployed... and that's a big part of the problem. It's not that people aren't trying hard. It's that wages are getting too low because of the large supply of workers.
Even some highly educated (much more highly educated than you or I) people are out of work in professions like school teaching and computer programming today. They have to take jobs that are below their skill level, and it doesn't have anything to do with their not trying hard enough. It's the job market.
I DO believe there should be a minimum wage that makes sure people make enough to live on. If jobs don't pay well enough for that, then they ought not to be able to hire humans to to it, because people have to live and support themselves.
You may discover someday how important this is. Greedy people are in power now. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 10:59:01 AM |
I DO believe there should be a minimum wage that makes sure people make enough to live on.
So, Elwood, you're saying that McDonald's should have to pay every full-time, 16 yr. old employee at least $40,000 a year? WHo needs college then? WHo wants to get a promotion to a position of greater resposibility, when you live comfortably on what you earn already? Crap jobs incite people to better themselves. Welfare makes people lazy and content with what they have. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:15:23 AM | Raising minimum wage only helps the poorest people and not for long. If I make 8 dollars an hour and you raise minimum wage 1.00 more than it is now, do you think my employer is going to raise my salary to 9 dollars an hour? No. But the cost of that higher minimum wage will be felt in the prices we pay for goods and services. Raising the minimum wage causes inflation. And that little bit of inflation ensures that new minumum wage is actually equal to the old minimum wage in real dollars. However, for the people that make a little above minimum wage, they didn't get an increase -- so in real dollars they lose money because we wanted to give high school kids and temp workers a raise.
Robert Reich, the Clinton secretary of labor was arguing this point in the early 90s. When he was labor secretary, Clinton pushed for the raising of minimum wage. Shortly after the announcement (within a few months if I recall correctly) Reich went back to Havard to teach. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:17:56 AM | Welfare is different from Social Security for disabled people and un-employment insurance. Welfare is for people who do not work. And I'm glad we have a system that says that if you're able bodied and mind and do not work, your benefits do not last for ever. It's not perfect but it's much better than remaining on welfare for life.
Unemployeement insurance is for people that have lost their job. That's a very helpful safety net in our society. And Welfare is too if and only if the benefits are limited. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:24:45 AM | bm: You still don't get it.
My point is: If there aren't enough jobs that pay people enough money to live on, then people have to take lower paying jobs even if they're qualified to work in one requiring higher levels of skill.
Let's take a job which pays enough for a person to make a living. Let's say you're a teacher. A school district hires one teacher if they have one opening. They don't hire two just because there are two qualified people.
Let's take computer programmers... same thing.
The WHOLE LABOR MARKET this year needs x number of teachers and X number of programmers and if you're number x + 1, it means you either don't work or you take a lower paying job.
There are MANY MANY jobs these days which MANY people are qualified to work in, but there aren't openings.
Sadly, YES, the manufacturing jobs and higher skill jobs in the US are growing scarce. Because the overwhelming majority of new jobs created by the labor market are ones which require very low levels of worker sophistication and are service jobs which are microsupervised and automated, there are less and less jobs which pay enough for people to live on.
Many times the workers have skills far and above the level required for the jobs they have. This is a reality the labor market these days.
Yes, I say even jobs like Mc Donald's if worked 40 hour weeks, should be able to support an individual and pay their living expenses in the communities they work in. They shouldn't have alot of expendable income, but they should at least be paid enough to put clothes on their backs, a roof over their head and food on their table, as well as pay their dental and medical expenses.
If the unskilled jobs keep replacing skilled jobs at the present rate and this doesn't happen, we're going to have alot more homeless people with bad health problems living in squalid living conditions...AND alot of businesses which live off expendable income of the working classes are going to go under....
You guys seem to be assuming that there are always jobs out there for people who try to improve themselves and that's simply not the case!!!
Besides IT's and Teachers there are machinists, doctors of molecular and cell biology.... Greyhound cut 52 cities out of their routes here in California this week... It's really not what you say it is and I don't know when it ever was.
Your assessment of things again is overly simplified. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:30:34 AM | 1. I'm Canadian, and we pay up to 52% income tax followed by 15% sales tax. So you all shouldn't complain so much
2. Yes, when welfare payments increase more people take welfare - relatively speaking. The number of welfare-ians is directly related to the gap between welfare and minimum wages.
3. Simply put, people remain in minimum wage jobs becasue they feel they have no choice, I think - which they may or may not actually have | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:36:44 AM | elwood - i don't disagree with everything you posted in that last post.
in fact, i do believe that the majority of full time jobs out there should not be paid minimum wage but something that can support a person at a basic standard of living. however, i was commenting on the original post that started this thread...where the min. wage is for those part time jobs for students, etc. and the jobs are necessary but aren't considered long term career options. these jobs are more transitional...to gain work experience and fill a need.
i agree that the majority of jobs out there must at least pay a wage that values and meets the basic needs of workers. but changing min. wage to something higher impacts ALL jobs, not just "life time" jobs. i don't agree that a 16 year old or for that matter, anyone working at a fast food chain on a part time or full time basis should consider that job as a lifetime one - rather it's a transitional job that provides experience and some pay - there's a reason they are called level entry positions.
what's the answer? it's more complicated than what i could offer here. but just some thoughts...
all eyes seem to be on technology, BUT there is a huge shortage of trained plumbers, electricians, carpenters, drywallers in the construction industry and few young people entering into these professions. they pay far more than minimum wage but are not considered "white collar" jobs and therefore not attractive. as far as i know, we will still be using toliets, electricity and living in homes made with wood for at least the next few decades. SO...training/apprenticeship programs for those who have graduated from high school that are co-sponsored by builders/developers/contractors who need the labour...especially as the existing workforce begins to retire.
service based industries are increasing and need to increase to replace the low paying manufacturing jobs moving overseas. customer service makes service based industries successful and we could learn from the japanese on this one! contrary to popular belief we do NEED TO LEARN THIS SKILL and then practice it. jobs in service based industries - tourism, transportation can pay pretty well be successful if its employees are all about "customer service".
financial based businesses are always going to be in demand - high school graduates studying tax planning, income tax prep. etc. can make good money as their own businesses without studying economics for 4 years or trying to become certified accountants. training programs aren't as expensive, either.
those are just a few holes in employment currently that are not being filled and are not expected to be filled adequately over the next 20-25 years. OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS...are people willing to listen?
- training | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:40:17 AM |
there is a huge shortage of trained plumbers, electricians, carpenters, drywallers in the construction industry
financial based businesses are always going to be in demand - high school graduates studying tax planning, income tax prep. etc. can make good money as their own businesses without studying economics for 4 years or trying to become certified accountants. training programs aren't as expensive, either.
If you've got a 4 year bachelor degree from UC Berkeley in Economics, that's good for a telemarketing job around here... Otherwise, you start from the ground floor in auditing or anything like that. MANY MANY people with business or economics degrees can't work in their field because the labor market is saturated.
Construction?
If you drive by Truitt and White Lumber in Berkeley there are at least 400 illegals waiting on street corners at 7 am every day to do this work for $10 per hour... no benefits, no insurance... not enough to live on... at least around here. Not even close...
The only union construction jobs here are government ones and I don't know anyplace in the US where it isn't like that. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:47:24 AM | Everytime I've used Union labor, it's put me way behind schedule. I've worked in union plants and we were lucky if the workers were 40% utilized. Meaning they did nonthing 60% of the time they were being paid to work.
The trade unions were slightly better than the un-skilled unions but I've also had problems with electricians putting me weeks behind schedule on a 2 month job. And I had to kick some off for working unsafely.
I'm against using illegial labor but if I have my choice, I usually opt for non-union labor when I can. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:49:04 AM | Minium wage As the word sugessts " Minimum" and should go hand and hand with "minimum "
THe billion dollars employees pay as little as posibble but charge the consumer as much as bearable often no benifits to employees and when the employee get sick guess what?? he either gets let go or uses up his small dollars to pay for his medication to get bette not to mention for a doctors note to tell his employer he was sick. Speaking of sick this society is sick minimum mage from billion dollar corporations . Executives on water front homes driving Mercedes. And if you think this is fair your sick but hey dont worry friend God will reward those who are Just.( You decide who's just
Rick in Canada
ps i dont work for minimum wage but give generously to those who do | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:53:08 AM | | Didn't the United States steal present day California,Texas,Arizona,Nevada and New Mexico from Mexico about half way through the 1800s?Maybe this is their way of getting it back,by outbreeding the Gringos and becoming the majority if the population.It looks to me like feminazism,spawned mainly by American gringos in the 1960s,and the "me" generation, spawned by California's pop psychologists in the 1970s, is going head to head with good old fashioned Mexican Catholicism and losing.All of California's major cities were given their names by Jesuit missionaries in the 1600s.If you'd kept doing what the Jesuits told you to do, rather than thinking you were smarter than they are, you wouldn't be in the mess you're in today. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:53:13 AM | That about sums it up Kadmus...
Most people or businesses don't have enough to pay other people enough to live on anymore because the top rungs of our society are hoarding so much of everything that it affects people at the lower end of the economy more than anyone else. THEREFORE they don't make enough to live on.
THAT is our problem. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:58:33 AM |
Didn't the United States steal present day California,Texas,Arizona,Nevada and New Mexico from Mexico about half way through the 1800s?Maybe this is their way of getting it back,by outbreeding the Gringos and becoming the majority if the population.It looks to me like feminazism,spawned mainly by American gringos in the 1960s,and the "me" generation, spawned by California's pop psychologists in the 1970s, is going head to head with good old fashioned Mexican Catholicism and losing.
A good Mexican friend of mine (he is HR manager for a plant I used to visit in Mexico). He said that Mexico had decided to take back those states one Mexican at a time.
But seriosly, we did steal those states. James Polk was **stard of a president! | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 10:26:11 AM | And - back to the original question, and a comment about it.
You are not considering a rather large segment of the population now working for minimum wage, on either a part-time or full-time basis. Young "seniors". Often these people have lost their jobs before retirement age, through downsizing, plant closures, outsourcing and other reasons that were not necessarily predictable. There's also been pension fraud etc. on the part of some large companies. Agism is rampant and many try for months, or years, to find better paying work. A small minority of these people (aged 55 to 65) succeed. You'll find the others, who must work - in fast food joints and other places that pay mimum wage.
A higher minimum wage would not wreck the economy. It would enable those who make the least to go to food banks less often and maybe even afford the bus fare to get to an interview for a better job.
lyrical | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 3:53:31 PM | lyrical - excellent points about older people in the workforce. i was relating specifically to entry level positions where young people are getting their start or developing work experience on their resume and how that related to minimum wage jobs.
i think it's shameful that we don't value those of our citizens who have contributed a lifetime of work to society. the fact that so many seniors have to live on what they're given at food banks or worse is deplorable.
however, i have to disagree that increasing the minimum wage for many jobs currently paying said wage is not going have to a negative impact on the economy. it will if it's done across the board. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 6:05:12 PM | maltgirl: it's only the minimum wage. It's not done across the board... and you don't think that the current minimum wage, which is not enough to live on for all the service jobs in the economy is NOT going to hurt it?...you don't think this is causing a downward spiral?
Think again... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:10:04 PM | | Elwood, your grasp of economics is tenuous at best. You're the same person who called for 16 yr olds who work at McDonalds to earn at least $40 grand a year? Do you have any idea what happens when we pay everyone more? It creates inflation. The more money you give to people, the more money you have to print, the less worth it has as a result. If minimum wage was increased to $20 an hour, then a gallon of milk would cost $15. No one would be any richer because of it. Didn't you ever hear of the Germans who would have to to cart wheelbarrows of Deutschmarks around just to pay for a loaf of bread? Simply handing out more money won't fix a thing. This is basic economics, which you seem blissfully inaware of. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:16:38 PM | BM: I didn't say 16 yr olds should make $40K a year. That's a lie.
Everyone who works should make enough so that if they work 40 hours, they can feed and clothe themselves and have a roof over their head.
I stand on that. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:18:33 PM | Nobodies calling for a 20$ min wage, bulldogmatic. Get real.
It's been proven again and again through REAL LIFE that a higher min. wage creates prosperity. But I'm pretty sure if it gets ridiculoulsy high, there would be a problem, yes. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:25:22 PM |
Everyone who works should make enough so that if they work 40 hours, they can feed and clothe themselves and have a roof over their head.
And, how much is that? Specifically in the great state of California, what is the dollar amount you are assigning to this goal? Please be sure to count all revenue including rent, food, clothes, gas, transportation, etc. You like to make broad, sweeping proclomations (ie. I tihnk teh everybody should be rich! LIAR! You are a LIAR! Neocon slimeballs don't insult me!"
SO, put up or shut up. I wanna know how you propose to solve this problem, since you seem to know everything. First step: How much is enough for someone to live on, at 40 hr work week? This oughtta be real easy for you, oh enlightened one. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:32:16 PM | Just to easily shoot afew holes in your theory, BM.... who said the person had to buy gasoline? Did I say they had to own a car?....
I never said I knew everything. I'm not the bureau of labor statistics.
BM: the way I see it, I'm the one-eyed man in the valley of the blind
In other words, I don't know alot, but I'm pretty sure I know some things you either don't see or refuse to consider.
I just know most people can't even come close to living on their own when they're paid the current minimum wage. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/15/2005 7:37:40 PM | | I know, Elwood. I knew you couldn't answer the question, which is why I asked it. I know you never said you know everything, you only act like it. You just like to bring up problems and **** about them. You rarely offer solutions, and none of them are ever viable. I guess running the world is a little bit harder than we think. Wouldn't you agree? | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/17/2005 6:33:53 AM | A higher minimum wage would not wreck the economy. It would enable those who make the least to go to food banks less often and maybe even afford the bus fare to get to an interview for a better job.
What a naive statement to make. Let me help you get a grasp on some reality.
I have a business and pay 10 people minimum wage.
The Government raises minimum wage 20%.
I'm not making any more money because minimum wage was raised.
I lay off 20% of my workforce (2 people)
I try and get the other 80% of the workforce to make up the work deficit because I cannot afford to pay the higher minimum wage to 10 people.
Now you have two more people who have no job, that need to go on unemployment (which is much less than minimum wage) and place an even heavier burden on the economy and tax payers.
People need to have an opportunity to better their lives. In America EVERYONE has that opportunity. You cannot expect Government to force businesses and taxpayers to pick up the tab for people who do not have the drive to try and better their lives... | |
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