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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/14/2007 7:15:59 PM | Women today want to be let on the same playing field with the Big Boys, but they don't want to have to play Hard Ball
Hmm so does this mean that if I was to "sleep around" then I'd be called a MAN insted of a wh*re ??
Just wonderin, is all.. 
( sorry had to add my 2 cents..) | |
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| Men put divorce out of reach back then.
Posted: 6/14/2007 7:44:08 PM | I got's me a rollergrrl in the choir! Hot damn!
Are you really on a squad, grrl? Do you ever compete in KC? Because I want to come and scream when you do! I love rollerderbygrrls! Talk about your femininity! These are real girls, only they're made of meat and bone! My three favorite things!
Oh, and Everything Nice. Of course.
Cheers!
Vulf  | |
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| Men put divorce out of reach back then.
Posted: 6/14/2007 8:07:31 PM | 
i had knee surgery in february to repair some torn cartilidge and have part of my patella tendon lasered off. i haven't skated since then. :(
i'll be back though, just have to get back to full strength
KC has an AWESOME league!!!! i can't WAIT for st. louis to play them!!! hopefully soon | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/14/2007 10:01:59 PM | | We've strived to become more like men and it's almost complete. The wise wmoen are the ones who have managed to stop at a point so they can enjoy having a man around...can understand the differences between the sexes and appreciate it. These women are the ones who are happy in a relationship, but fully able to take care of themselves if alone. | |
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| Men put divorce out of reach back then.
Posted: 6/14/2007 11:12:44 PM |
But grrl!
Will you let me know? And will you tell me your skate name? And can I get an autograph?
I mean, honestly! A fish on skates? If I can, I have to see it!
On topic: Marriages come and go, but a divorce is something you always have.
Cheers!
Vulf  | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/14/2007 11:30:42 PM | You if you depend on the state , you are not truly independent"
Capegardengirl says:
Neither is a man who relies on his wife to stay at home full time to raise children..He depends on her doing this so he can have a family and work full time...Both......None of us in relationships are "truly independent"....Thats a myth perpetuated by the PC macho culture (and recently politics) that says people have to be isolated entities onto themselves in order to be "successful"....Which is BS...We all rely on some kind of support from others to get what we need and want in this world....We dont do it alone...."Make a choice and live with the consequences"....Single mothers didnt plan on being single...If the man isnt working with her as a partner or has addiction problems or domestic violence problems, is that really her fault for not being able to have a crystal ball and fortell the future?..The same argument could be said for men who pick unstable, but physically beautiful drama queens early in life who wear them out and use them brutally for their money and act passive agressive.....I see alot of 40 something men here speaking of exwives who were exackly like that.....Make a choice and live with that consequence...It goes both ways
Neither is a man who relies on his wife to stay at home full time to raise children
How many relationships even emulate that situation any more? And if he wants that exclusively, some might say he's an insensitive pig that won't let his wife work or have a life outside of the home (even though many men try to be flexible despite whatever personal problems they possess).
If you don't think that more federal funds are allocated for women than men, especially geared towards women specifically, and there are lesser federal and state support (or no equivalent for men) you have a lot of learn and research. Many equal opportunity laws and civil rights laws, as well as anti--assault laws (VAWA) favor women, and who's paying the tab for all of that? Not politicians, I assure you.
None of us in relationships are "truly independent"....Thats a myth perpetuated by the PC macho culture (and recently politics) that says people have to be isolated entities onto themselves in order to be "successful"....Which is BS..
Yeah, tell that to the anti-nice guy hordes and legions on this site, demanding men to grow a pair (i.e., be a beta male drone and shut up and take it).
Single mothers didnt plan on being single...
Actually, the incidence of single, never married moms is higher than ever, so your premise is flawed. Plus, I know a lot of men will date flawed women out of caring for them because 1) they actually do care about them 2) the best of the women aren't giving them the time of day and have a greater pool of men to choose from than men, with the exception of the top of the heap of males. In addition to that, more women divorce their husbands than the other way around, so yes, most DID make a choice somewhere along the line. The fact they supposedly didn't is a cop out, barring literally accident of birth.
Of course, we could tell women to stop marrying and procreating with bad men, but that might be considered crass and politically incorrect . . . akin to taking charge of their lives. I don't buy the innocent, naive woman defense.
Make a choice and live with that consequence...It goes both ways
The "It goes both ways" statement doesn't quite cut it. Most men, unless they are filthy rich, don't have much to fall back back upon and can't pick and choose between an ideology that supposedly favors "equality" (feminism) and a system that gave them support despite its faulty mechanisms (traditionalism). Most men are expected to play the role of breadwinner, father, and task-bearer despite that adage that "It's a man's world." A good portion of social and personal responsibility and obligation is heaped on men, not just women. If he doesn't, some might consider him a loser, reckless fool, or playboy, while if a woman did that, she's liberated and independent. Hell, I've been called selfish by BOTH men and women simply because I don't want kids and am cynical of marriage, which has become a legal and social trap for many.
Same thing with women who sleep around. First, it's become a cool thing for women to do---it's called hook up culture and "slut feminism" is a badge of honor for some, and if you're not in the game, you're an undesirable, and this damages both men and women. Face it, women are still the gatekeepers of sex and men have to "earn it," but of course, we're not supposed to act like we're desperate, because that's not cool. Secondly, women are critical of players, but who are these players sleeping with? Gay men? Nope. Women are giving affection to many of players, as usual.
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| Men put divorceru out of reach back then .
Posted: 6/15/2007 6:22:30 AM | Re post 154:
"....We've strived to become more like men and it's almost complete. ..."
That was the "strategic" and philosophical mistake IMO. Because it was based on a static analysis of what "man" was. What man was in the old days was affected by what woman was too.
The idea was not for women to move from Venus to Mars and become Marsians like men! And for some men to move to Venus.
The idea was for men and women to move to Earth and live in equality and pluralism in peace together. Thus the evolution is not yet complete. The Earth destination is still to be reached, by both women and men! Of course some men and women may decide to stay in Mars and Venus or move to other planets, such as Uranus, Pluto, etc. or even other galaxies (see "Star Trek", "Babylon Five", etc and "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe", lol, or for more advanced stuff "Space Odyssey 2001" and "2010")!
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| Men put divorceru out of reach back then .
Posted: 6/15/2007 7:39:14 AM | Can someone please explain to me what "being more like men" means? I hear this accusation so many times and it makes no sense in the true sense of being a man.
This phrase seems to be used when describing scenario's which involve careers, money, decision making anything that was traditionally "male" only because the law, social acceptance and the church set those parameters. None of these things are or were the exclusive genetic or physical make up of a man, just set in place by society. The ability to budget, earn money or make an informed decision is not gender based but I find it interesting that so many men brand women who are self sufficient as "trying to be a man". How so? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of having to compete with a woman because in your personal opinion women shouldnt be competitive because that is a character trait that has been traditionally considered a "male or dominant" trait?
If you choose do define yourself so narrowly as an individual that you dont have anything to offer other than the killin' spiders, wearing a gun or taking the lid of jars kind of mentality then that is your choice to set those boundaries on your self and accept the ramifications of that choice, and Ladies if you also want to pidgeon hole yourself into that type of relationship, go right ahead and guess what you get to choose to do that now becasue of all those women who fought the good fight to be more than "property" or a punching bag when the spider killer had a bad day.
And to all those men that want to be leaders, prove that you have the skill set to lead and have the critical thinking ability to lead, then you may get the chance to lead and be part of the decision making process of the family, its not an automatic assumption any more that because you have a****you are smarter. | |
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| Men put divorce out of reach back then.
Posted: 6/15/2007 12:51:10 PM | First a real rollergrrl, and now a real angel! I was wrong; this isn't my choir. It's my Legion of Superheroines! Maybe I'll get to wear a cape!
And ali? First of all, having a c0ck doesn't make me smarter. It gives me something to talk about. A most important difference.
As to your question, what is acting like a man, Simone De Beauvoir said it best, I think: "Whenever a woman behaves as an adult, she is accused of acting like a man."
Or French words to that effect.
Cheers!
Vulf | |
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| Men put divorce out of reach back then.
Posted: 6/15/2007 2:40:02 PM | "Whenever a woman behaves as an adult, she is accused of acting like a man."
Very wise words from a wise adult human (Simone De Beauvoir).
Good selection of quote fellow poster!
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 162 | |
| Two wrongs make it ok now ?
Posted: 6/15/2007 3:28:41 PM | ....it makes no sense in the true sense of being a man.
As to your definition of what a "man" is. I dare say a lot of women get just as offended when man dictates what a women should be or how they should behave when they have no idea of the influences or pressures on the gender, as the majority of women don't about men, or what they themselves dictate to men.
As a lot of this thread proves by women trying to tell men what they should be, where as most guys will thankfully ignore that and be who they feel they are, not what someone is trying to mould them into, for their own purposes.
If you choose do define yourself so narrowly as an individual that you dont have anything to offer other than the killin' spiders, wearing a gun or taking the lid of jars kind of mentality then that is your choice to set those boundaries on your self and accept the ramifications of that choice, ....
It would seem you've already done that for all men in your opinion, obviously to justify your animosity towards men and to fuel the fight even more.
.....................he ramifications of that choice, and Ladies if you also want to pidgeon hole yourself into that type of relationship, go right ahead and guess what you get to choose to do that now becasue of all those women who fought the good fight to be more than "property" or a punching bag when the spider killer had a bad day.
Hence the bitter and angry backlash on the current generation of guys by some women looking for revenge at every turn, as the over tones of your whole post carries. Punishing ever man for being born one, just because you feel you can justify abuse of power, two wrongs to make a right etc.
Let alone the condescending tone you have to other women who are happy with the choices they make, who don't feel the need to tell you what choices to make, or who don't have such hate issues with men as you obviously do.
Guilty until proven innocent, as so often is the mantra from that corner ...... I dare say no man here should bother trying to change your mind or deal with your accusations, that's for you to do.
Thankfully there are lots of lovely ladies that actually like men and aren't looking for their own emotional punch bag.
You are obviously not one of them. | |
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| Men put divorceru out of reach back then .
Posted: 6/15/2007 4:00:08 PM | "My point is I don't think men know where they fit in a woman's life anymore. " This is the essence of the OP. I would agree only to the extent of viewing it from a societal perspective. The thing that's evolved is that women have more opportunities to do things that in the past only men could. To vote, own property in their own name, earn a degree, and have a career. It's just the opportunity not an entitlement.
Women still have to work as hard as men do (or should have to, rather) to achieve their goals and desires. As with many things, the intent was leveling the playing field so that women could develop themselves if they so chose to, rather than being labeled a failure or outcast if they couldn't at least marry if not marry and have children. To have a choice to pursue education and career rather than wife and mother.
As with all change, people don't readily accept or adapt easily. Neither gender, some women feel they should be treated with a gender advantage and many men resent that (as they should). And some men just aren't accepting of having to treat a woman as an equal in the workplace, school or other social environment.
Unfortunately, this has spilled over into personal relationships. Some women feel they have to prove they are the "better man" and tend to emasculate men. Some men feel they have to treat women as "one of the guys". It's a shame that the gender wars still seem to rage on, but it's a fact. Society is what it is, no one individual will be able to change that.
What we can do is make our own personal decisions. If we could put aside the one-upsmanship and the competitive spirit and appreciate each other for what we are. Accept our strengths, aknowledge our weaknesses and try to bring out the best in each other. Too much criticism, too much nitpicking, not enough support and encouragement. That's for humanity in general, not any gender specifically.
The gender wars will continue as long as the genders are working against each other rather than together.
The examples of killing spiders or opening a jar or a door are just that. Not criteria to use on which to choose a mate or a reason to have someone in your life.
If we could step back and see the big picture. Men or women aren't the enemy!! We were meant to and made to work and be together. To live together, love together and mesh our strengths and weaknesses for the betterment of our relationships and soceity. How two people fit into each other's lives is for them and them alone to decide and determine. | |
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| Its suppose to be about decency - which is not weakness there gurls
Posted: 6/15/2007 5:03:09 PM | allgurl asked - Can someone please explain to me what "being more like men" means? I hear this accusation so many times and it makes no sense in the true sense of being a man.
Young boys are raised to learn that competition without respect for your peers is a negative. When they grow up they learn that aggression must be reigned in else it causes problems for others. Both men and boys can develop a unhealth obssession with winning. This is an ongoing lesson for males until they finally get the message. When that happens it is only hard lessons that seem to snap them out of it. These and other subtle male behavior patterns are things most men go through and learn to grow out of. But what do you think happens when women mimic this behavior without the other side of the equation coming into play?
Women see all of the above as typical "how men act", and many seem to emulate it -- especially in the workplace in order to keep up with the boys. Some women try very hard to one up a man on the level of nastyness because they think that is what competition in the workplace is about. Instead of being an equal to a man they are picking up all of a males worse qualities without realizing it. When criticized (as men will do to each other) the woman mistakes this as something else, and gets even more defensive.
Ironically most men have learned to be more sensible in their communications with each other (less hypercritical as it is more productive), but it seems a lot women without management experience go the other route. That is what makes a woman manager most effective in a mans world -- she learns to be a peacemaker and a communicator, because to an average men that is a leadership attribute. It is also not a easy balance to achieve and certainly does require communication skills that are "non-feminine". (Most of us are not going to take orders from someone trying to be "mom" btw).
But what women do not seem to learn is the underlying morality that men learn from these experiences. Things like honor, not kicking someone when they are down, and not going overboard in celebrating ones gains are all social behaviors that are needed in order to keep society from falling into a violent mob. It seems strange to women perhaps -- but the end result is a set of check and balances in most men so that we know it is bad for everyone when we push these boundaries.
Women do not pick up on the subtle messages -- which is what men mean when they accuse women of "behaving like a man". I think that women accuse men of doing the same thing with female sub-culture, and yes it is true in reverse a lot of times. But when a man accuses you of acting like a man it often times means "you are being worse then a man" in some irresponsible, unethical, or fairness violating sort of way.
In short you are emulating male behavior of the type that when seen in a man -- would be hated and shunned.
And to all those men that want to be leaders, prove that you have the skill set to lead and have the critical thinking ability to lead, then you may get the chance to lead and be part of the decision making process of the family, its not an automatic assumption any more that because you have a****you are smarter.
It has been my experience that when you prove this then you just make the situation even worse with women. Most women would not know male leadership if it bit them on the....well you get the point. Instead they see men who are all talk and flash as being leaders, while the real leaders amongst men go ignored. Another sore point men have with female culture.
In the situation you mention though - even when a man is trying to simply do a better job, the other person in the equation sees this as a challenge of some sort, gets more defensive, and escalates the level of anger or competitive response. Instead of being a loving friendship/relationship -- it degrades into a spiteful one where no one gains, and women fail to see the after effects of their brooding, resentment, or the negative effects on the woman's chosen response. In short is a no win scenario because the woman makes it that way by refusing to allow a sensible resolution. She would rather fume, rant, and accuse then fix the problem. Men look for solutions, but the woman looks for a loophole.To a man this is tantamount to spewing a line of unjustifiable excuses for not getting the job done -- another big negative in the eyes of males btw.
In short it seems like everything is a no win situation with women these days many times -- which is why some men know the best choice is not to fight but to walk away. It is also why a lot of guys are tired of trying to moderate any kind of win-win solution between genders when these conflicts arise, because it seems like female culture doesnt want one. They just want men to shut up and admit they lost. Well sorry but it doesnt work that way with us.
Something to think about the next time your mad at men in general  | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/15/2007 7:30:45 PM | | Well I think what women want is for men to understand that we can do these things, but out of respect, care and love to not want us to have to do it. I have always been independent, capable and interested in taking care of myself, but when life is hard I want someone to say "here baby, let me do that for you!" It's hard because it can seem like ewanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I really think a person should strive for finding that person who's going to try and do those little things that help us out and make us feel like we have a soft place to fall on a daily basis. | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/16/2007 2:19:26 AM | Disagree.
If my primary role, to a woman, was opening jars, squishing spiders, providing for her, or defending her, it isn't very appealing. I'll do most of that (minus the providing) for just about anyone, regardless of gender. It's more about being courteous than fulfilling a pre-defined role in a relationship through trivial tasks. If you're the first one through the door, hold it open for those behind you (to an extent, sometimes long lines make this unreasonable), be you man or woman. If you can open a jar that someone else can't, be nice and do it...it'll take 2 seconds.
Take it all away (or just share it with me, as I prefer), and I'm still a partner and lover who knows how to communicate.
Women today want to be let on the same playing field with the Big Boys, but they don't want to have to play Hard Ball
Hmm so does this mean that if I was to "sleep around" then I'd be called a MAN insted of a wh*re ??
Just wonderin, is all..
( sorry had to add my 2 cents..)
Nope, but guys who sleep around are called man whores and generally aren't well thought of, either. :P | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/16/2007 2:39:51 AM | Well I think what women want is for men to understand that we can do these things, but out of respect, care and love to not want us to have to do it. I have always been independent, capable and interested in taking care of myself, but when life is hard I want someone to say "here baby, let me do that for you!" It's hard because it can seem like ewanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I really think a person should strive for finding that person who's going to try and do those little things that help us out and make us feel like we have a soft place to fall on a daily basis.
Now, flip "women" and "men" around, there. Is that really so different? If I shouldn't want my girl to have to do said things because I respect and love her; if she respects and loves me why would she let or even possibly expect me to do twice as much so she doesn't have to?
I agree that it's important to want to do the little things for someone, but it falls to the couple to decide what they can both do to help make eachother's life better. | |
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| Two wrongs make it ok now ?
Posted: 6/16/2007 4:48:01 AM | Jemue
Ok first of all I am not looking for an emotional punching bag.
My post was in frustration to what you exactly point out. Both men and women are guilty of pushing their own parameters of what a man or a woman should be, and I dont think that is right. I dont look at a man as a "saviour" in my life and someone to do the hard stuff while I get to sit back and pick and choose when I want to step up to the plate in a relationship and I am quite sure many men dont want to be that, no more than women want to be the "domestic" in a mans life and be automatically pidgeonholed into a role that is clearly outdated in today world, yet we keep coming back to these stereotypes agian and again.
When I hear people describing manly traits as being a spider killer and a jar opener I cringe because I think that actually is an insult to men and negates what so many men have to offer and diminishes the value of the so called non manly attributes they bring to a relationship. And the same goes for women who get praised for being nurturing and emotionally strong but damned for being assertive in their lives as acting like men. I find this statement even more confusing as to me it actually insults males as a whole as it implies that being an independant, strong and focused person is somehow flawed and many of these traits are traditionally attributed as male.
How you interpret my words is clearly up to you but make no mistake I like men and do not blame them for my lot in life as I am the only person reponsible for that. But as you state I dont want to be guilty before proven innocent because I dont fit in the same box that many people think that women should fit in and the same goes for how I view men. To me a man is more than a spider killer or someone to do the heavy lifting when I dont feel like it.
Hope that clears up some assumtions made about my post. | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/16/2007 2:59:41 PM | For the poster who asked what "being more like a man" means:
I think that in view of what was posted by a fellow poster above (Simone's quote) it means acting like an adult and to be more specific, IMO, that means using more logic and less emotions in their daily lives and decisions. Mind you, that does not mean IN NO WAY that women or men are void of emotions, but it is a matter of not allowing emotions to get in the way of logic in dealing with the daily as well as "grand" issues in life, IMO.
I am strongly attracted to women who are quite LOGICAL while not throwing their emotions into the garbage can of course (not talking of robots or cynics). | |
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| Men put divorceru out of reach back then .
Posted: 6/17/2007 3:24:12 PM |
Unfortunately, this has spilled over into personal relationships. Some women feel they have to prove they are the "better man" and tend to emasculate men. Some men feel they have to treat women as "one of the guys". It's a shame that the gender wars still seem to rage on, but it's a fact. Society is what it is, no one individual will be able to change that.
What we can do is make our own personal decisions. If we could put aside the one-upsmanship and the competitive spirit and appreciate each other for what we are. Accept our strengths, aknowledge our weaknesses and try to bring out the best in each other. Too much criticism, too much nitpicking, not enough support and encouragement. That's for humanity in general, not any gender specifically.
The gender wars will continue as long as the genders are working against each other rather than together.
The examples of killing spiders or opening a jar or a door are just that. Not criteria to use on which to choose a mate or a reason to have someone in your life.
If we could step back and see the big picture. Men or women aren't the enemy!! We were meant to and made to work and be together. To live together, love together and mesh our strengths and weaknesses for the betterment of our relationships and soceity. How two people fit into each other's lives is for them and them alone to decide and determine.
Bucsgirl...as always, smart and hitting the nail right on the head...And unfortunately, some people - males who have been emasculated or females who have been treated as 'one of the guys' - tend to look upon the next one they meet as possibly being the same type who will do the same thing to them...instead of getting to know them first and seeing them for who they actually are. Maybe part of it is that some people are afraid to simply *be* who they are right from the beginning; maybe some people are too insecure with who they are to be themself; and maybe it's that some people just assume too quickly or can't be accepting of who others are. But when one sees some people, like you, it does give the rest of us hope that there are others like that out there. | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/27/2007 6:59:36 PM | | It depends of exactly where you are at , I suppose ~ Various parts of the country differ. Social Economics is playing a big role. Morality another. The very substance we eat plays another ~ it appears women are maturing ( in Body) anyway earlier then thay were just 20 years ago. Lots of hormones in our food today. Social Engineering by governments plays another. ~ we hadn't got a change of nailing it down to just one or two things I fear. ~~~~~ In the end , the world is ran by Need & Greed, figure out where you are at in the foodchain and make the best of it. Dar | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/27/2007 11:03:48 PM | In the ideals of pair marriage, woman has finally won recognition, dignity, independence, equality, and education; but will she prove worthy of all
this new and unprecedented accomplishment? Will modern woman respond to this great achievement of social liberation with idleness,
indifference, barrenness, and infidelity? Today, woman is undergoing the crucial test of her long world existence! | |
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| Women put women where we are today!?
Posted: 6/28/2007 3:23:07 AM | i agree that the politics of yesterday are responsible for the status and behavior of women today, completely. The feminist movement or suffragettes are the only new successful poitical movement that survived the 20th century..... 
but beware, the women of today will determine the status of women of tommorow, and my personal feeling is that there are no constructive, dignified or inspiring role models for todays women........ | |
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