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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/2/2007 1:33:14 PM | Its not "discredit"ing someone to state the reasons for one's OWN opinion. Thats the entire concept behind debate. Why post opinions if you can't solidify your own when someone disagrees?
And you DID say and imply something about race. Albeit mistakenly. Its not my fault hat I took your typo literally. I don't read minds and can't really imagine why I would have thought you didn't mean it. You acknowleded last night that you typed the word "you" when you didn't mean me although your response was addressed to me.
I'm done arguing about it. You have an issue with what I said or how I said it, then oh well. Nothing I can do about it. I'm not overly fond of your phrasing either, or your continued insistance on calling me out for having an opinion. Even though thats what you say you are defending for another poster. This is dumb.
It is a beautiful..and innocent thing to be able to live life truly believing that, as you said earlier "Most people don't have it in them to truly be racist." I'm sorry, but when you've experienced true hate the way some have, that statement boarders on ludicrous. It would be beautiful ...but its just not the reality that many people have had shoved down their throats. But you are surely entitled to your opinion and I've grown so tired of trying to clarify mine that I find I'm losing sight of the entire point of this discussion.
I think the person the OP posted in regards to is a racist b!tch. I just do. My reasons have filled up about 3 pages of this discussion. I really can't elaborate any more. My grandmama used to tell us kids that "Some folks don't believe fat meat is greasy even when they see the grease running out of it." I find that pretty well sums up this entire exchange. May not make sense to anyone raised north of the Mason Dixon line, but it sure fits this situation for me. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/2/2007 2:09:28 PM | How does "you" imply racially motivated?
How does your opinion carry more weight than anyone else's?
An assumption is an assumption no matter who makes it.
So...now I don't know hate because...? because I'm white...? You didn't imply white but you did say me so that must mean because I'm white, right? now...GMAFB!
If you really think the majority of the people in this world are out to discriminate against you by simply referring to you as you...you need more help than anyone here can offer.
How can you not see that while one side is being insensitive the other is being overly so?
How do you not understand that UNDERSTANDING bridges that gap one idea at a time?
Instead you interpret all words as hate...because your opinion is that they are hate...and if you want to live in that miserable place you just go ahead.
I'm done. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/4/2007 8:20:11 PM | What Kind of Card is Race?
The Absurdity (and Consistency) of White Denial
By Tim Wise
Recently, I was asked by someone in the audience of one of my speeches, whether or not I believed that racism--though certainly a problem--might also be something conjured up by people of color in situations where the charge was inappropriate. In other words, did I believe that occasionally folks play the so-called race card, as a ploy to gain sympathy or detract from their own shortcomings? In the process of his query, the questioner made his own opinion all too clear (an unambiguous yes), and in that, he was not alone, as indicated by the reaction of others in the crowd, as well as survey data confirming that the belief in black malingering about racism is nothing if not ubiquitous.
It's a question I'm asked often, and which I answered this time in much the same fashion as I have done previously: First, by noting that the regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds. In other words, it's not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere). Second, I pointed out that white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn't new, and it isn't something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable. Fact is, whites have always doubted claims of racism at the time they were being made, no matter how strong the evidence, as will be seen below. Finally, I concluded by suggesting that whatever "card" claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly: a subject to which we will return.
Turning Injustice into a Game of Chance: The Origins of Race as "Card"
First, let us consider the history of this notion: namely, that the "race card" is something people of color play so as to distract the rest of us, or to gain sympathy. For most Americans, the phrase "playing the race card" entered the national lexicon during the murder trial of former football star, O.J. Simpson, back in 1995. Robert Shapiro, one of Simpson's attorneys famously claimed, in the aftermath of his client's acquittal, that co-counsel Johnnie Cochran had "played the race card, and dealt it from the bottom of the deck."
The allegation referred to Cochran's bringing up officer Mark Fuhrman's regular use of the 'n-word' as potentially indicative of his propensity to frame Simpson. To Shapiro, whose own views of his client's innocence apparently shifted over time, the issue of race had no place in the trial, and even if Fuhrman was a racist, this fact had no bearing on whether or not O.J. had killed his ex-wife and her acquaintance, Ron Goldman. In other words, the idea that O.J. had been framed because of racism made no sense and to bring it up was to interject race into an arena where it was, or should have been, irrelevant.
That a white man like Shapiro could make such an argument, however, speaks to the widely divergent way in which whites and blacks view our respective worlds. For people of color--especially African Americans--the idea that racist cops might frame members of their community is no abstract notion, let alone an exercise in irrational conspiracy theorizing. Rather, it speaks to a social reality about which blacks are acutely aware. Indeed, there has been a history of such misconduct on the part of law enforcement, and for black folks to think those bad old days have ended is, for many, to let down their guard to the possibility of real and persistent injury (1).
So if a racist cop is the lead detective in a case, and the one who discovers blood evidence implicating a black man accused of killing two white people, there is a logical alarm bell that goes off in the head of most any black person, but which would remain every bit as silent in the mind of someone who was white. And this too is understandable: for most whites, police are the helpful folks who get your cat out of the tree, or take you around in their patrol car for fun. For us, the idea of brutality or misconduct on the part of such persons seems remote, to the point of being fanciful. It seems the stuff of bad TV dramas, or at the very least, the past--that always remote place to which we can consign our national sins and predations, content all the while that whatever demons may have lurked in those earlier times have long since been vanquished.
To whites, blacks who alleged racism in the O.J. case were being absurd, or worse, seeking any excuse to let a black killer off the hook--ignoring that blacks on juries vote to convict black people of crimes every day in this country. And while allegations of black "racial bonding" with the defendant were made regularly after the acquittal in Simpson's criminal trial, no such bonding, this time with the victims, was alleged when a mostly white jury found O.J. civilly liable a few years later. Only blacks can play the race card, apparently; only they think in racial terms, at least to hear white America tell it.
Anything but Racism: White Reluctance to Accept the Evidence
Since the O.J. trial, it seems as though almost any allegation of racism has been met with the same dismissive reply from the bulk of whites in the U.S. According to national surveys, more than three out of four whites refuse to believe that discrimination is any real problem in America (2). That most whites remain unconvinced of racism's salience--with as few as six percent believing it to be a "very serious problem," according to one poll in the mid 90s (3)--suggests that racism-as-card makes up an awfully weak hand. While folks of color consistently articulate their belief that racism is a real and persistent presence in their own lives, these claims have had very little effect on white attitudes. As such, how could anyone believe that people of color would somehow pull the claim out of their hat, as if it were guaranteed to make white America sit up and take notice? If anything, it is likely to be ignored, or even attacked, and in a particularly vicious manner.
That bringing up racism (even with copious documentation) is far from an effective "card" to play in order to garner sympathy, is evidenced by the way in which few people even become aware of the studies confirming its existence. How many Americans do you figure have even heard, for example, that black youth arrested for drug possession for the first time are incarcerated at a rate that is forty-eight times greater than the rate for white youth, even when all other factors surrounding the crime are identical (4)?
How many have heard that persons with "white sounding names," according to a massive national study, are fifty percent more likely to be called back for a job interview than those with "black sounding" names, even when all other credentials are the same (5)?
How many know that white men with a criminal record are slightly more likely to be called back for a job interview than black men without one, even when the men are equally qualified, and present themselves to potential employers in an identical fashion (6)?
How many have heard that according to the Justice Department, Black and Latino males are three times more likely than white males to have their vehicles stopped and searched by police, even though white males are over four times more likely to have illegal contraband in our cars on the occasions when we are searched (7)?
How many are aware that black and Latino students are about half as likely as whites to be placed in advanced or honors classes in school, and twice as likely to be placed in remedial classes? Or that even when test scores and prior performance would justify higher placement, students of color are far less likely to be placed in honors classes (8)? Or that students of color are 2-3 times more likely than whites to be suspended or expelled from school, even though rates of serious school rule infractions do not differ to any significant degree between racial groups (9)?
Fact is, few folks have heard any of these things before, suggesting how little impact scholarly research on the subject of racism has had on the general public, and how difficult it is to make whites, in particular, give the subject a second thought.
Perhaps this is why, contrary to popular belief, research indicates that people of color are actually reluctant to allege racism, be it on the job, or in schools, or anywhere else. Far from "playing the race card" at the drop of a hat, it is actually the case (again, according to scholarly investigation, as opposed to the conventional wisdom of the white public), that black and brown folks typically "stuff" their experiences with discrimination and racism, only making an allegation of such treatment after many, many incidents have transpired, about which they said nothing for fear of being ignored or attacked (10). Precisely because white denial has long trumped claims of racism, people of color tend to underreport their experiences with racial bias, rather than exaggerate them. Again, when it comes to playing a race card, it is more accurate to say that whites are the dealers with the loaded decks, shooting down any evidence of racism as little more than the fantasies of unhinged blacks, unwilling to take personal responsibility for their own problems in life.
Blaming the Victims for White Indifference
Occasionally, white denial gets creative, and this it does by pretending to come wrapped in sympathy for those who allege racism in the modern era. In other words, while steadfastly rejecting what people of color say they experience--in effect suggesting that they lack the intelligence and/or sanity to accurately interpret their own lives--such commentators seek to assure others that whites really do care about racism, but simply refuse to pin the label on incidents where it doesn't apply. In fact, they'll argue, one of the reasons that whites have developed compassion fatigue on this issue is precisely because of the overuse of the concept, combined with what we view as unfair reactions to racism (such as affirmative action efforts which have, ostensibly, turned us into the victims of racial bias). If blacks would just stop playing the card where it doesn't belong, and stop pushing for so-called preferential treatment, whites would revert back to our prior commitment to equal opportunity, and our heartfelt concern about the issue of racism.
Don't laugh. This is actually the position put forward recently by James Taranto, of the Wall Street Journal, who in January suggested that white reluctance to embrace black claims of racism was really the fault of blacks themselves, and the larger civil rights establishment (11). As Taranto put it: "Why do blacks and whites have such divergent views on racial matters? We would argue that it is because of the course that racial policies have taken over the past forty years." He then argues that by trying to bring about racial equality--but failing to do so because of "aggregate differences in motivation, inclination and aptitude" between different racial groups--policies like affirmative action have bred "frustration and resentment" among blacks, and "indifference" among whites, who decide not to think about race at all, rather than engage an issue that seems so toxic to them. In other words, whites think blacks use racism as a crutch for their own inadequacies, and then demand programs and policies that fail to make things much better, all the while discriminating against them as whites. In such an atmosphere, is it any wonder that the two groups view the subject matter differently?
But the fundamental flaw in Taranto's argument is its suggestion--implicit though it may be--that prior to the creation of affirmative action, white folks were mostly on board the racial justice and equal opportunity train, and were open to hearing about claims of racism from persons of color. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. White denial is not a form of backlash to the past forty years of civil rights legislation, and white indifference to claims of racism did not only recently emerge, as if from a previous place where whites and blacks had once seen the world similarly. Simply put: whites in every generation have thought there was no real problem with racism, irrespective of the evidence, and in every generation we have been wrong.
Denial as an Intergenerational Phenomenon
So, for example, what does it say about white rationality and white collective sanity, that in 1963--at a time when in retrospect all would agree racism was rampant in the United States, and before the passage of modern civil rights legislation--nearly two-thirds of whites, when polled, said they believed blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities--almost the same number as say this now, some forty-plus years later? What does it suggest about the extent of white folks' disconnection from the real world, that in 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities (12)? Or that in May, 1968, seventy percent of whites said that blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities, while only seventeen percent said blacks were treated "not very well" and only 3.5 percent said blacks were treated badly? (13)?
What does it say about white folks' historic commitment to equal opportunity--and which Taranto would have us believe has only been rendered inoperative because of affirmative action--that in 1963, three-fourths of white Americans told Newsweek, "The Negro is moving too fast" in his demands for equality (14)? Or that in October 1964, nearly two-thirds of whites said that the Civil Rights Act should be enforced gradually, with an emphasis on persuading employers not to discriminate, as opposed to forcing compliance with equal opportunity requirements (15)?
What does it say about whites' tenuous grip on mental health that in mid-August 1969, forty-four percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job--two times as many as said they would have a worse chance? Or that forty-two percent said blacks had a better chance for a good education than whites, while only seventeen percent said they would have a worse opportunity for a good education, and eighty percent saying blacks would have an equal or better chance? In that same survey, seventy percent said blacks could have improved conditions in the "slums" if they had wanted to, and were more than twice as likely to blame blacks themselves, as opposed to discrimination, for high unemployment in the black community (16).
In other words, even when racism was, by virtually all accounts (looking backward in time), institutionalized, white folks were convinced there was no real problem. Indeed, even forty years ago, whites were more likely to think that blacks had better opportunities, than to believe the opposite (and obviously accurate) thing: namely, that whites were advantaged in every realm of American life.
Truthfully, this tendency for whites to deny the extent of racism and racial injustice likely extends back far before the 1960s. Although public opinion polls in previous decades rarely if ever asked questions about the extent of racial bias or discrimination, anecdotal surveys of white opinion suggest that at no time have whites in the U.S. ever thought blacks or other people of color were getting a bad shake. White Southerners were all but convinced that their black slaves, for example, had it good, and had no reason to complain about their living conditions or lack of freedoms. After emancipation, but during the introduction of Jim Crow laws and strict Black Codes that limited where African Americans could live and work, white newspapers would regularly editorialize about the "warm relations" between whites and blacks, even as thousands of blacks were being lynched by their white compatriots.
From Drapetomania to Victim Syndrome -- Viewing Resistance as Mental Illness
Indeed, what better evidence of white denial (even dementia) could one need than that provided by "Doctor" Samuel Cartwright, a well-respected physician of the 19th century, who was so convinced of slavery's benign nature, that he concocted and named a disease to explain the tendency for many slaves to run away from their loving masters. Drapetomania, he called it: a malady that could be cured by keeping the slave in a "child-like state," and taking care not to treat them as equals, while yet striving not to be too cruel. Mild whipping was, to Cartwright, the best cure of all. So there you have it: not only is racial oppression not a problem; even worse, those blacks who resist it, or refuse to bend to it, or complain about it in any fashion, are to be viewed not only as exaggerating their condition, but indeed, as mentally ill (17).
And lest one believe that the tendency for whites to psychologically pathologize blacks who complain of racism is only a relic of ancient history, consider a much more recent example, which demonstrates the continuity of this tendency among members of the dominant racial group in America.
A few years ago, I served as an expert witness and consultant in a discrimination lawsuit against a school district in Washington State. Therein, numerous examples of individual and institutional racism abounded: from death threats made against black students to which the school district's response was pitifully inadequate, to racially disparate "ability tracking" and disciplinary action. In preparation for trial (which ultimately never took place as the district finally agreed to settle the case for several million dollars and a commitment to policy change), the school system's "psychological experts" evaluated dozens of the plaintiffs (mostly students as well as some of their parents) so as to determine the extent of damage done to them as a result of the racist mistreatment.
As one of the plaintiff's experts, I reviewed the reports of said psychologists, and while I was not surprised to see them downplay the damage done to the black folks in this case, I was somewhat startled by how quickly they went beyond the call of duty to actually suggest that several of the plaintiffs exhibited "paranoid" tendencies and symptoms of borderline personality disorder. That having one's life threatened might make one a bit paranoid apparently never entered the minds of the white doctors. That facing racism on a regular basis might lead one to act out, in a way these "experts" would then see as a personality disorder, also seems to have escaped them. In this way, whites have continued to see mental illness behind black claims of victimization, even when that victimization is blatant.
In fact, we've even created a name for it: "victimization syndrome." Although not yet part of the DSM-IV (the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association, used by its members so as to evaluate patients), it is nonetheless a malady from which blacks suffer, to hear a lot of whites tell it. Whenever racism is brought up, such whites insist that blacks are being encouraged (usually by the civil rights establishment) to adopt a victim mentality, and to view themselves as perpetual targets of oppression. By couching their rejection of the claims of racism in these terms, conservatives are able to parade as friends to black folks, only concerned about them and hoping to free them from the debilitating mindset of victimization that liberals wish to see them adopt.
Aside from the inherently paternalistic nature of this position, notice too how concern over adopting a victim mentality is very selectively trotted out by the right. So, for example, when crime victims band together--and even form what they call victim's rights groups--no one on the right tells them to get over it, or suggests that by continuing to incessantly bleat about their kidnapped child or murdered loved one, such folks are falling prey to a victim mentality that should be resisted. No indeed: crime victims are venerated, considered experts on proper crime policy (as evidenced by how often their opinions are sought out on the matter by the national press and politicians), and given nothing but sympathy.
Likewise, when American Jews raise a cry over perceived anti-Jewish bigotry, or merely teach their children (as I was taught) about the European Holocaust, replete with a slogan of "Never again!" none of the folks who lament black "victimology" suggests that we too are wallowing in a victimization mentality, or somehow at risk for a syndrome of the same name.
In other words, it is blacks and blacks alone (with the occasional American Indian or Latino thrown in for good measure when and if they get too uppity) that get branded with the victim mentality label. Not quite drapetomania, but also not far enough from the kind of thinking that gave rise to it: in both cases, rooted in the desire of white America to reject what all logic and evidence suggests is true. Further, the selective branding of blacks as perpetual victims, absent the application of the pejorative to Jews or crime victims (or the families of 9/11 victims or other acts of terrorism), suggests that at some level white folks simply don't believe black suffering matters. We refuse to view blacks as fully human and deserving of compassion as we do these other groups, for whom victimization has been a reality as well. It is not that whites care about blacks and simply wish them not to adopt a self-imposed mental straightjacket; rather, it is that at some level we either don't care, or at least don't equate the pain of racism even with the pain caused by being mugged, or having your art collection confiscated by the Nazis, let alone with the truly extreme versions of crime and anti-Semitic wrongdoing.
Conclusion -- See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Wrong as Always
White denial has become such a widespread phenomenon nowadays, that most whites are unwilling to entertain even the mildest of suggestions that racism and racial inequity might still be issues. To wit, a recent survey from the University of Chicago, in which whites and blacks were asked two questions about Hurricane Katrina and the governmental response to the tragedy. First, respondents were asked whether they believed the government response would have been speedier had the victims been white.
Not surprisingly, only twenty percent of whites answered in the affirmative. But while that question is at least conceivably arguable, the next question seems so weakly worded that virtually anyone could have answered yes without committing too much in the way of recognition that racism was a problem. Yet the answers given reveal the depths of white intransigence to consider the problem a problem at all.
So when asked if we believed the Katrina tragedy showed that there was a lesson to be learned about racial inequality in America--any lesson at all--while ninety percent of blacks said yes, only thirty-eight percent of whites agreed (18). To us, Katrina said nothing about race whatsoever, even as blacks were disproportionately affected; even as there was a clear racial difference in terms of who was stuck in New Orleans and who was able to escape; even as the media focused incessantly on reports of black violence in the Superdome and Convention Center that proved later to be false; even as blacks have been having a much harder time moving back to New Orleans, thanks to local and federal foot-dragging and the plans of economic elites in the city to destroy homes in the most damaged (black) neighborhoods and convert them to non-residential (or higher rent) uses.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, has to do with race nowadays, in the eyes of white America writ large. But the obvious question is this: if we have never seen racism as a real problem, contemporary to the time in which the charges are being made, and if in all generations past we were obviously wrong to the point of mass delusion in thinking this way, what should lead us to conclude that now, at long last, we've become any more astute at discerning social reality than we were before? Why should we trust our own perceptions or instincts on the matter, when we have run up such an amazingly bad track record as observers of the world in which we live? In every era, black folks said they were the victims of racism and they were right. In every era, whites have said the problem was exaggerated, and we have been wrong.
Unless we wish to conclude that black insight on the matter--which has never to this point failed them--has suddenly converted to irrationality, and that white irrationality has become insight (and are prepared to prove this transformation by way of some analytical framework to explain the process), then the best advice seems to be that which could have been offered in past decades and centuries: namely, if you want to know about whether or not racism is a problem, it would probably do you best to ask the folks who are its targets. They, after all, are the ones who must, as a matter of survival, learn what it is, and how and when it's operating. We whites on the other hand, are the persons who have never had to know a thing about it, and who--for reasons psychological, philosophical and material--have always had a keen interest in covering it up.
In short, and let us be clear on it: race is not a card. It determines who the dealer is, and who gets dealt.
NOTES
(1) There is plenty of information about police racism, misconduct and brutality, both in historical and contemporary terms, available from any number of sources. Among them, see Kristian Williams, Our Enemies in Blue. Soft Skull Press, 2004; and online at the Stolen Lives Project: http://stolenlives.org.
(2) Washington Post. October 9, 1995: A22
(3) Ibid.
(4) "Young White Offenders get lighter treatment," 2000. The Tennessean. April 26: 8A.
(5) Bertrand, Marianne and Sendhil Mullainathan, 2004. "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment in Labor Market Discrimination." June 20. http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mullainathan/papers/emilygreg.pdf.
(6) Pager, Devah. 2003. "The Mark of a Criminal Record." American Journal of Sociology. Volume 108: 5, March: 937-75.
(7) Matthew R. Durose, Erica L. Schmitt and Patrick A. Langan, Contacts Between Police and the Public: Findings from the 2002 National Survey. U.S. Department of Justice, (Bureau of Justice Statistics), April 2005.
(8) Gordon, Rebecca. 1998. Education and Race. Oakland: Applied Research Center: 48-9; Fischer, Claude S. et al., 1996. Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press: 163; Steinhorn, Leonard and Barabara Diggs-Brown, 1999. By the Color of Our Skin: The Illusion of Integration and the Reality of Race. NY: Dutton: 95-6.
(9) Skiba, Russell J. et al., The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment. Indiana Education Policy Center, Policy Research Report SRS1, June 2000; U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System: Youth 2003, Online Comprehensive Results, 2004.
(10) Terrell, Francis and Sandra L. Terrell, 1999. "Cultural Identification and Cultural Mistrust: Some Findings and Implications," in Advances in African American Psychology, Reginald Jones, ed., Hampton VA: Cobb & Henry; Fuegen, Kathleen, 2000. "Defining Discrimination in the Personal/Group Discrimination Discrepancy," Sex Roles: A Journal of Research. September; Miller, Carol T. 2001. "A Theoretical Perspective on Coping With Stigma," Journal of Social Issues. Spring; Feagin, Joe, Hernan Vera and Nikitah Imani, 1996. The Agony of Education: Black Students in White Colleges and Universities. NY: Routledge.
(11) Taranto, James. 2006. "The Truth About Race in America--IV," Online Journal (Wall Street Journal), January 6.
(12) The Gallup Organization, Gallup Poll Social Audit, 2001. Black-White Relations in the United States, 2001 Update, July 10: 7-9.
(13) The Gallup Organization, Gallup Poll, #761, May, 1968
(14) "How Whites Feel About Negroes: A Painful American Dilemma," Newsweek, October 21, 1963: 56
(15) The Gallup Organization, Gallup Poll #699, October, 1964
(16) Newsweek/Gallup Organization, National Opinion Survey, August 19, 1969
(17) Cartwright, Samuel. 1851. "Diseases and Peculiarities of the Negro Race," DeBow's Review. (Southern and Western States: New Orleans), Volume XI.
(18) Ford, Glen and Peter Campbell, 2006. "Katrina: A Study-Black Consensus, White Dispute," The Black Commentator, Issue 165, January 5. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/7/2007 6:17:16 AM | Daydreamer, PLEASE read what Jordan just posted. Please.
And my opinion carries no more weight than yours. MY implication with that statement should be clear. You are singling me out over and over again..picking apart my position, when you claim it doesn't really differ from yours that much. But I think MY opinion is more deserving of respect? No...I simply wasn't going to slink away with it when confronted by someone who disagreed with my terminology.
I'm betting no one will read the above post...although it THOROUGHLY sums up the entire argument here. All dozen + pages of it. From a white man no less, so maybe the opinion won't be deemed as playing that dumbass card.
Again, thanks JordanMardan. Standing O for you!... | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/7/2007 6:36:35 PM | | Racisim (or more descriptively culturalisim) is a part of real life. I'm an an easy going older Caucasian male and just my confident demeanor is considered offensive by some to be racist. I can sense resentment from those who cannot get past the fact that we are all of the same race "human" but are not of the same cultural backgrounds. It's getting better here in the states but we've got a long way to go. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/8/2007 5:18:09 AM | BTW... what happened 300.. or even 100 years ago really shouldn't affect you now.
The black people who DON'T claim racism at every opportunity and who WORK to prove thier abilities... succeed.
Oh, Fred....Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred, FRED! I don't even know where to start with these two statements. I really don't. So I think I'll just say this: Only a person truly unaffected by the repercussions of "what happened 300 yrs ago" could even say that. Truly.
And what you seem to be saying (cuz I don't want to put words in ANYone's mouth) is that there is no way that society can be blamed past OR present for someone not getting ahead? We have only to SHUT UP and never even think someone is discriminating against us, and the floodgates of prosperity will open?? So, I guess that whole Dr. King thing was just unnecessary. The man didn't know what he was talking about when he said skin color was denying an entire race of people access to proper education? My mama is lying when she talks about having to take my aunt (her younger sister) 5 miles down the road for a drink of water when they would allow them inside a "whites only" restaurant? My grandfather really didn't have to stand and watch while a white sharecropper with HALF his payload was paid TWICE what he was. According to your analysis, if he just forced himself to believe that it really wasn't racism, he would have opened his pocket and seen the money had doubled.
And no, this didn't stop there. There are instances of the same type of ...abuse, outright abuse happening in America TODAY. I have SEEN a child put on one list as opposed to others...by simple virtue of the fact that her NAME sounded black. I've SEEN a family get up and move to a different location in a restaurant once they realized their waiter was a young black man. It goes on and on. And to be told by ANYone that these people should just shut up and not cry "Racism!" at the top of their voices......well, that just saddens me. And it pisses me off.
As far as the education and learning thing...I would agree to some extent. My point was that we aren't all starting from the same place. Its a cycle hun. People who were disenfranchised and denied access to education and training breed MORE people who work menial jobs and are uneducated. Thats not my opinion, but a social experiment thats been in the making since America came into being.
It is way too Pollyanna for anyone to say that there is no racism or that people should just shrug it off, get over it, or anything else cliche like that. THIS is the type of thing promotes frustration and seperatism among the races. If you were....I dunno, smacked around by someone, reported it to the police only to have them say "Oh, its your imagination. You must just be upset over something else." How would that make ya feel?
This entire debate borders on the ridiculous. It truly does.
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/11/2007 4:06:23 PM | keystone: "The word racist has become so politically correct to use. For some it's as easy to say as "good morning". It's something I've noticed over the years and I'm not accusing you (OP) of that."
Jordan: There's nothing PC about the term racist.
Racist is indeed a blunt term.
While I've contracted with the local and state Human Rights Commissions and similar other agencies, what I see is the following:
While People of Color (African-/Asian-/Latino-/ and "Native"-Americans and others around the world) are quick to use the term, whites/Europeans are just as quick to deny it.
People often confuse the terms bias, prejudice, and racist/racism.
Prejudice means exactly how it's spelled: to prejudge.
Bias can mean either preference or the same as prejudice.
A racist is someone who believes that "there are both inferior and superior groups of humans, and that physical characteristics, such as color, eye shape, hair texture, etc., are indicators of innate capacities, such as contro of emotions, intelligence, temperament."
Treating people differently because of a belief in this definition is an act of racism.
When Jimmy the Greek was fired from CBS for saying that "Blacks are better athletes because they were bred that way"....was indeed a racist statement. (or for those in Canada: "Blacks are better athletes because they have fast-twitch fibers in their muscles"......yeah, right)
In the case that prompted this thread, we don't have enough information to determine whether it's a form of bias, prejudice, or actual racism. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/11/2007 4:37:11 PM | FredHH: "claiming racism does get used as an excuse by some...
And it only takes a few who abuse something to give it a bad name.
Note also that "Affirmative Action" is a system that says "Black people are inferior and can not compete on an even playing field." Black people should be insulted that Afirmative Action exists.
Look for ANY reason for a comment other than racism, before calling it racist."
Jordan: After reading Fred's message above, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.
Couldn't we also claim that "the reason for affirmative action has been soooooo distorted, and therefore ABUSED, by white opponents (particularly talk radio hosts polluting our airwaves) that the policy "has a bad name?!"
Fred is DEAD WRONG about affirmative action being "a system that says Black people are inferior and can not compete on an even playing field."
Utterly ridiculous!!!!
Affirmative action legislation was passed by an overwhelmingly *white male* Congress and signed into law by a *white male* president....in order to remedy institutional discrimination against white women and People of Color (African-/Asian-/Latino-/ & "Native" Americans).
Two, white women are the largest group that have benefited from aff. action while Blacks are the group MOST scapegoated by the policy/laws.
For one, you have to have a college degree in order to use it, which is why many say that "more needs to be done for those who don't go to college"...and work in industries with a long history of discriminatory hiring and promotion practices.
And through the gains white women have made via affirmative action, their *white* husbands, sons, nephews, and grandsons also benefit.
Soooooooooooooooo....drumroll......WHITE PEOPLE HAVE AND ARE BENEFITING MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION THAN BLACKS AND/OR ANY OTHER GROUP OF COLOR.
As a matter of fact, white men have benefited more from discrimination laws than any other group due to "age discrimination" lawsuits.
Although most whites were the primary opposing force against Civil Rights laws, ironically they have been the largest group, statistically, to benefit from them.
White people like Fred should be ashamed that his Amerikkka IS not the meritocracy that is so often trumpted in textbooks and other media.....and is thus little more than an aspirational ideal to continue to strive for.
For a more indepth perspective on affirmative action, check out Ira Katznelson's book, 'When Affirmative Action Was White: An Untold History of Racial Inequality in Twentieth-Century America" (2005).
The author is a Ruggles Professor of Political Science and History at Columbia University and president of the American Political Science Association (at the time of publication).
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/11/2007 6:34:45 PM | Somehow my reply to Fred didn't post in the message.
Again:
FredHH: "The black people who DON'T claim racism at every opportunity and who WORK to prove thier abilities... succeed."
Jordan: The overwhelming majority of the Blacks filing lawsuits under affirmative action laws are...college-educated and/or high-achieving African Americans.
As I wrote earlier, you have to have a college degree to use it.
Fred: The problem is... too many are happy to accept the free points of affirmative action and then do the minimum work required to keep thier jobs. That is not the way to advance.
Jordan: Another LIE.
Affirmative action MAY open the doors for you, but you have to perform to keep your job.
It cannot be used as an excuse to keep poor performing employees employed.
But that's type of crap that Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc., etc., etc. spew forth on their talk radio shows on a daily basis. Nothing but a lie.
If people would read the legislation....rather than listening to the lies....they wouldn't make themselves look so damn silly. No where in the legislation of aff. action does it say what Fred conveys in his message.
Fred: Affirmative action also promotes racism by causing people who don't get the jobs but ARE more qualified to JUSTLY feel like they are victims of reverse discrimination.
Jordan: Affirmative Action was passed into law in the 1960s.
Racism has been around for centuries.
Two, although whites use it a lot...there is no such term as "reverse discrimination."
The opposite of discrimination is "NO discrimination."
Fred: You want to cure racism... quit teaching people to look for it. Affirmative action teaches racism.
Jordan: Racism can ONLY be cured...by teaching people that 1) there isn't such a thing as "races" of humans,
2) that there are not both inferior and superior groups of humans.....just humans,
3) start depicting Blacks and other Groups of Color in a more BALANCED way in movies, TV programs, textbooks, etc....rather than teaching or presenting movies showing us all coming from the ghetto, are takers rather then givers (welfare), drug-addicts, lazy, crime prone, studpid, etc., (less than 25% of Blacks live in poverty, but if you watch CBS/NBC/CNN/ABC, attend white-dominated colleges, etc., you will tend to believe that 95% of Blacks live in poverty....not true).
4) white people in America MUST tell the truth about what they have and are doing to Blacks and other Groups of Color....as the whites in South Africa did before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and many other tasks.
Fred: And if you run into a racist... just ignore the idiot.
Jordan: That all depends on the situation.
Should James Byrd have ignored the white racists who eventually dragged and beheaded him in Texas a few years ago?!
How could Hurricane Carter have ignored the white racists who imprisoned him? (but eventually was freed due to the efforts of both Blacks and whites working together to expose the racism of the judicial system)
Should I just ignore a white racist cop who has pulled me over for nothing? Wouldn't simply ignoring her/him make her/him even madder?!
Should I ignore the white racist principal who suspends/expels Students of Color for fighting in school while only sentencing white students doing the same to detention hall?!
It's little wonder that People of Color are disproportionately represented in prisons.....because in most cases....whites don't receive prison time for committing the same offenses...whether or not each defendant has a similar criminal background and/or has attorneys with similar educational credentials...instead whites are allowed to make Alford Pleas, do community service, have the severity of their charges reduced to another level, such as from a felony to a misdemeanor, or their charges may be dropped altogether, etc.
How many Defendants of Color can say:
my father and the judge were in the same fraternity in college;
the judge's brother and my uncle are partners in a business;
the judge's sister and my aunt in the same garden club;
etc., etc., etc....talk about networking.
Fred:BTW... what happened 300.. or even 100 years ago really shouldn't affect you now.
Jordan: But it does...because the beliefs about racism that were created back then, and written into our nation's laws, and implemented into various social customs/practices.... continue to be believed/practiced by many, many, many, many whites.
While the laws have changed...the culture remains virtually the same: racist/sexist, etc.
The huge economic, educational, political, and psychological advantages that have accumulated to whites....is quite a chasm to overcome.
There were laws that prohibited Blacks or any other Person of Color from holding the highest paid jobs in our society...for over 130 years....even today it's a shame to say that in many areas of employment, we're still hearing "so-and-so is the first Black person to hold this job."
And that's not because people were unqualified...it's because of racism...and for white women...it's sexism. Ask U.S. Supreme Court justice Ruth Ginsburg about the secism she encountered upon graduating from law school.
Fred: It is each person's choice to learn to read and to work to learn in school... or to see how much they can disrupt class and how much graffiti they can paint in the school hallways.
Teach kids to act civilized and to try to succeed... or plan on them failing.
Jordan: It is each teacher's choice to have......high expectations for ALL children or he/she can choose to only teach part of the class...while severely damaging the rest.
I recall a passage from Malcolm X's bio where he writes, "When I told the Guidance Counselor that I wanted to be a lawyer," he said, "Malcolm, why don't you become a carpenter? Your people are better working with their hands."
In effect, what was the white counselor telling Malcolm?
This form of "Acting White" is rarely as discussed in the media as the other type stated by a small percentage of Black children.
The counselor's covert "Acting White" is the most deadly type, because it involves a person in an authoritative position telling a subordinate that "you do NOT have the intellectual capacity to achieve at a higher level: same thing as low expectations practiced by teachers.
But why do a few Black children attempt to impede the progress of other Black students?
Because they have NOT learned in their studies or they are not taught that there have been high achieving Blacks throughout history who are very articulate, etc., etc., etc.
Back in 1959 there was a book published titled "Black Like Me, " and the author was a white male journalist who chemically darkened his skin in order that he could see *firsthand* "how Negroes were treated throughout the South.
John Howard Griffin's experience was also made into a movie.
In a segment of the book he writes, "There is an unwritten rule among southern newspapers, in that 'if you have to depict a Negro in a positive light, do it in such a way that the trait doesn't appear to be common among his race.' "
What message do Black and other Children of Color receive/learn when...there is ONLY one Black scientist (George Washington Carver) or one Black this or that...depicted in their textbooks?!
And don't whites receive the same message: this is NOT a common trait among their race. (!?)
Racism can ONLY be decreased and/or eliminated by remedying the situations I have discussed above.
In addition, our educational system must be re-configured into something that facilitates/fosters "independent thinking" rather than a system that produces, maintains, and perpetuates the narrow-mindedness of the various isms. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/11/2007 11:41:36 PM | Apparently me only being sexually attracted to or interested in Asian, Native or White men makes me a horrible racist person (I'm part native). Apparently my racial preferences in dating makes me a horrible person!
It gets really annoying seeing all these nasty messages in my inbox from black guys calling me a racist honkey ****! "Ooop, there it is out in the open for all the world to see. Good luck you racist peice of shit!"
It's my choice who I sleep with, i am not going to sleep with black guys just to prove that I'm not a real racist! I'm just not sexually attracted to them, sexual and physical attraction is important to me.
I have a number of black friends that I have spoken to about this issue. They said that these kind of black men are called Ignorant and Racist themselves. And it really makes them mad hearing about this sort of thing because it does hurt good honest black people.
Being a light skinned person that passes for white in a neighbourhood that is nearly 50% black I deal with racism on a daily basis FROM BLACK MEN!
Everyones a little bit racist, get over yourselves, knock it off with the name calling and deal with it! Constantly calling people racist at every turn just perpetuates the problem! | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 6:47:31 AM | RalGash: "I'm just not sexually attracted to them, sexual and physical attraction is important to me."
Jordan: The key word above is "I'm."
And the question is "how did your culture condition you to not be physically attracted to Black men?!"
Most people tend to believe that somehow he/she came to be like they are totally through their own individual predilections, etc. But frequently the culture they were raised in plays the largest role in mate selection.
If the Black men in your neighborhood are trying to date you, how could that be an example of racism, which would mean that "they would hate you because you're white-looking?!"
If they call you racist......after you reject their attempts to get to know you, etc., that is not an example of racism.
Based on the info you have provided thus far, it appears the Black men in your area are at least striking out at you in anger, but are certainly are not racist.
On the other hand, your comment about "physical attraction" mirrors the definition of racism I provided yesterday regarding "belief in inferior and superior groups of humans."
In other words, you are saying that "Black men are physically inferior to whites, Native, and Asian men."
And this is indeed racist.
I really have to wonder if you indeed "have a number of Black friends."
I know if I were a woman I sure wouldn't want a friend like you......knowing that you would not be attracted to the men in my family. (are these friends women or men?///no need to answer)
Being "native" does not exempt you from being racist...because you admitted to holding a belief reflective of the definition of racism.
Plenty of Blacks in earlier decades of America hated themselves...due to how Blacks were devalued and frequently depicted in denigrating ways in Amerikkkan media.
These people often attempted to use skin lightening products and/or peroxide to make themselves lighter and more accepting to whites.
Again, if some of the Black men in you neighborhood were racist towards you...they sure in the hell wouldn't be trying to date you or whatever. They would hate you.
Learn the definition of racism. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 7:18:51 AM | I am on the receiving end of racial mal treatment quite frequently over any given month - just for being white. I most certainly do not consider myself a victim. Mostly I just shrug it off and go on about my business. But the 'attitude' is there regardless of the fact that I treat people well - all people.
Donning the cloak of 'Victimhood' is a worse situation than being subjected to a bit of racism.
Life happens - one cannot expect to escape the travails of life. | |
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EC22
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Joined: 4/25/2007
Msg: 314 | |
| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 7:38:18 AM | | Of course there are some racist people from all groups ( whites, blacks, Asians etc ), but the difference is most people in positions of power are white men. Therefore blacks, women and any other non-white groups are more likely to be receiving end of gender and racial discrimination. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 8:35:40 AM |
It's my choice who I sleep with, i am not going to sleep with black guys just to prove that I'm not a real racist! I'm just not sexually attracted to them, sexual and physical attraction is important to me.
I am, by no means, questioning whether or not this particular poster is racist or not. Instead, I will try to provide a little insight in the mind of a black man - especially when he is turned down by a woman because of his race.
Question: Is it right to place ALL men of a certain race into the "unattractive" category, even ones that haven't been seen or met yet? Would it perhaps be better to list what is unattractive about an individual man, as opposed to seeing that he is 'black' from his picture or his profile description and automatically deleting his email before even reading it?
A black man on a site that is 97% white women is going to think that it's racism - it's only natural given our upbringing in this country. It's unfortunate, yes, but we are all, no matter your race, taught to believe that certain stereotypes about certain races have to be true - even if they are not.
Question: What about a black man is so unattractive that a woman would close herself off from even considering dating ANY black man? Is it skin color? Is it the texture of his hair? The shape of his nose? I'd like to know, because I've been something of a victim of racism, myself. I usually dont reply with some hostile, "I hope you die, cracka ass cracka!" response. I'm far more civil. But I am still curious as to exactly what turns a woman off to men of a certain race - because surely, not every man in that race falls under whatever stereotype she is thinking about.
So what would be sexual preference/attraction, and what would be bordering on racism?
Being attracted to blonde hair/blue eyes? Ok, those are physical attributes, not necessarily someting dealing with race. So probably sexual preference.
Deleting a man's well-spoken, well-written email because it says "Black/African American" under race, or deleting his email and blocking him before even reading said email? Might be bordering on the racist.
Like the way a tan line looks on a person? Prefer the way the sun glistens off of the more fair-skinned? Probably sexual preference.
Actually putting in your personal ad (and I've seen it), "Sorry, no black guys!" or "White guys only!" without any further explanation from a sexual attraction standpoint? Might be bordering on the racist there.
There's a fine... a VERY fine line between racism and sexual preference when it comes to the choices we make on this site. Personally I find it somewhat sad that interracial dating still has to be referred to as, "interracial dating," and not just dating.
Are we really that unevolved on this planet that we have to continue to separate ourselves into different races?
One last Question I just thought of: What IS white, anyway? Is it Italian? Is it British? Is it French? Scandinavian? Russian? Is ANYONE on this planet still any one pure race. Nope. Probably not. We're all a mix of something, so why don't we just get over ourselves, and the racist teachings of our parents and their parents, and come together as humans? I'll start, by removing my race from my profile. Seeing as how there is no "human" choice, I guess I will just Prefer Not To Say from here on out. Maybe I'll get more responses, LOL. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 8:37:41 AM |
I guess I will just Prefer Not To Say from here on out. Maybe I'll get more responses, LOL.
Or not! I just tried to change it, and there ISN'T even a choice to "Prefer Not To Say" under race! Wow... | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 11:07:17 AM | To clarify my point I am only sexually attracted to ASIAN, NATIVE and WHITE men.
There is an ASSUMED difference between European and White even though they are pretty much the same. To clarify, to me White is Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Celt, and English. Actually I am iffy on whether or not I'm into English guys. It's actually an appearance thing, what they look like seeing as your having trouble understanding the term 'physical attraction'. Gawd, why do I have to constantly keep explaining myself to people that are dead set on wanting to believe that I'm racist?
JordanMardan CLEARLY illustrates my view of what an ignorant black man is. Look at how absolutely rediculous his points are. If a black man do this it's not racist if a white man do the same thing it's racist? WOW.... double standards much? Basically what he is saying is that black men are EXCLUSIVELY the only people on the face of the planet immune to the label of racism. Mr. Jordan, YOU are RACIST! get over yourself! It's people like you that are making the lives of my most beloved friends miserable! KNOCK IT OFF and try being a little more constructive instead of accusing the whole world of being out to get you!
Excuse me, but calling me racist after I reject them in real life IS IN FACT RACISM, especially when I ONLY tell them that I am not interested.
You and the other guy reacted in a RACIST way immediately, you ASSUMED that I told these guys that I don't date black guys right off the hop. In fact what makes you think I would even word it that insensitively?
This mean ALL of the other races are not appealing to me as partners, not just black guys.
I was raised in a predominantly Asian neighbourhood when I was a child! But you feel happier just jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about me.
How about how these guys assume that I am a fully white person in my well mixed neighbourhood? And I said I was part Native, I'm willing to bet that you assumed that it means I am half native and half white and did not even allow it to enter your mind that I may be VERY mixed and only look like I am white, yes I did drop a hint in my other post that 'I am very pale and look like I am white'. Oh yeah, thier black so I'm not allowed to call them racist, silly me.
I never get this kind of grief from black woman, and LOL! Most of the ones that I know PREFER white men over black. Gee, I think I am starting to figure out why. Hmmmm...
Well it's not like your allowed to call me sexist, only men can be called sexist! How did that statement feel?
And where in my profile does it say that I don't date black men SPECIFICALLY and only date EVERYONE else?
I never said that I find black people ugly, in fact most of them are quite beautiful.
In answer to your question about my friends, it's about 50/50 men and woman. Actually, one of my friends is on plentyoffish under the name Shadow Dragon.
Why should I have to make a list of each race that I won't date just to make one group of people happy? I put it on my profile so that guys don't waste thier time, but they do it anyway by being ignorant with me about putting what I am attracted to in my profile.
I never get any nastey messages from any middle eastern guys about what I put in my profile accusing me of being racist.
I don't have any Spanish guys sending me notes about how offended they are and accusing me of being racist. (Although I do occassionally find Spanish guys hot) Hmm... maybe I should add spanish to my list then. LOL!
I don't have any other race doing this sort of thing.
It is only one group of men doing this, and believe me it is really hard to sympathise with male blacks when that sort of B*llshit is constantly thrown in my face all the time.
Luckily I have friends that through thier actions and words I can continue believing that not all Black MEN are a$$holes.
And yes you are RACIST
How is a white persons reaction racist when the EXACT same identical reaction from a black man is not racist? Redefining things to suit your own argument and twisting things to make yourself sound right when speaking of WHITE people makes what you are saying HATE LITERATURE no matter how you look at it. But because your black I guess it's not racism.
What about other races?
This video illustrates my point beautifully -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO-tobS1nl0 | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 11:18:05 AM | uultramann
<quote> Or not! I just tried to change it, and there ISN'T even a choice to "Prefer Not To Say" under race! Wow... </quote>
'Other' qualifies as prefer not to say. But that might imply that you're not proud of who you are which would be a bad move. You would also be specifically lock out those people who are looking just for you.
I know you're frustrated, just let it go.
And believe me, I have friends that are exclusively attracted to black men and it would be sad for them to not be able to find you. It's against forum rules to post other peoples contact info, if you have F@cebook (weird for some reason it blocked it out on the origional spelling) maybe I can hook you up? :D
I'm on there under Janet Forrester, and yes so are my supposedly imaginary black friends the other guy mentioned, LOL! | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 11:49:59 AM | I forgot to mention this.
Have you ever considered that what would turn a woman off from dating a SPECIFIC race may have something to do with personal experience? I'm not talking about just one bad egg, I'm talking several. This is in regard to a few black female friends that I have that is exclusively for white men.
Not only that, take a look at the kind of attitude portrayed in Jordans posts.
An attractive black man would be someone inspiring and going out and making change. Not some black guy being all racist and pointing a finger at a SPECIFIC group of people and constantly digging up negative feelings wherever he can find them.
And yes, any REAL racism that you come across in the workplace etc. needs to be reported right away irregardless of who you are so we can work towards getting rid of it faster. Yes the experience can be ugly but it has to be done.
Look at how ugly Ku Klux Klan people look to everyone, are you trying to create a black version of it?
JDMetro: You look like your white, according to certain individuals you are not allowed any rights to the terms Racism, Bigotry or Discrimination. these terms are exclusively only allowed for use by black men. Have a nice day.
I had to go here to make a response to the next post because it doesn't allow a certain amount in a row or whatever kind of crap.
dpd22
That's exactly my point! Congratualtions you hit it right on the nail!
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dpd22
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Joined: 11/9/2006
Msg: 320 | |
| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 11:56:07 AM | | Not dating a certain group of people because you aren't attracted to them doesn't make a person racist or prejudice. Not dating a certain group of people because of stereotypes and some bad experiences is racist or prejudice. If a woman stated that "she doesn't date black men", she could be racist but you wouldn't know that for sure. You would need to know more information about her. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 10:26:32 PM | I would think to be a 'racism victim' means:
~ because of colour, culture, etc .. is excluded from equal human rights
~ not hired for a job, even if he/she is well qualified for it, by a prejudiced employer
~ bullied by those who are making fun of his/her race
~ assumed to be a criminal by those who think every member of that race is bad
... but the worst is...............
being nearly wiped out of existence as an entire nationality by the fanatics who hate them. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/12/2007 11:17:25 PM |
In other words, you are saying that "Black men are physically inferior to whites, Native, and Asian men."
And this is indeed racist.
...... sputter..*dang*, nearly snorted my coffee all over the keyboard!
Jordan, WHY is it that a person has to return the interest of anybody who happens to show it? So what if RalGash doesn't physically prefer black men. So what if she has a liking for Asian, white and native men?
.. does the liking for one automatically debase another? NO. It's her preference and one to which she, like all of us, has a right. She never said black men are physically inferior: just that she's not attracted to that look.
Heck, I'm not interested in men who are very dark-haired, or have pale eyes, or are very stocky (long bodies, shorter legs), are shorter than I am ... or WAY too BIG.. I don't fancy a certain overall package, and that's up to me. It does not mean I'm saying those people are unworthy or inferior: just that they are not for me. As friends, perhaps, if we get along on enough common levels, but I can't see myself having intimate relations with them, because they are not visually appealing to me.
I've met some black fellows with the most beautiful smiles and gentle, softspoken and gravelly voices. I like them as people. Sometimes I find them kinda gorgeous, but there are others who just don't float my boat.
It's personal preference, not racism!! | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/14/2007 7:59:26 AM | So I've been thinking about this some more since my last post in this thread, and I think I know what we ALL should start doing:
We should all start admitting possibilities.
I've dated women of all races - that's because I admitted, long ago, that the possibility always exists that love can go deeper than a shallow skin color, or "certain physical features," as some posters in this thread have claimed (I still dont totally get that - do guys of certain races have a 3rd testicle I wasnt born with or something? I kid, I kid...)
I think the reason that some people see racism is because they observe a person putting ALL of the people of a certain race into a certain category, and regardless of "I'm not racist!" claims, to assume that all people of a certain color are something or another - even if the underlying intentions hold no ill will against said people of color - it's probably going to be interpreted as racist by some.
So onto my point - let's start admitting possibilities.
All of us.
How many of you out there can at least admit the possibility that while you might say, "No black guys," or whatever color you DON'T want in your profiles, can at least admit the POSSIBILITY that there could be at least one out there (of a different color/race) that you've not met, that just might spark your interest?
Believe it or not, I believe that racism exists MOST in our personal relationships. Sure, it still exists in the workplace, and out on the streets, and when a cop decides to follow a car with two young teens of color in it - but as a black man, if I had to measure how much of that has happened versus how many times a girl has broken up with me because her family didn't like my skin color, the ratio is staggeringly slanted toward the latter happening far more than any of the former.
(I've never been pulled over by cops because of skin color, by the way, LOL.)
So in closing, all I am saying is that we should all start admitting the possibilities, and instead of completely stonewalling a person when we see their skin color, we might actually see some beauty in everyone.
Possibilities, people. Possibilities. | |
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| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/14/2007 9:58:00 AM | JordanMardan
You need to get some counseling because you have surrounded yourself in negativity.
uultramann
So in closing, all I am saying is that we should all start admitting the possibilities, and instead of completely stonewalling a person when we see their skin color, we might actually see some beauty in everyone.
No, it's not even called stonewalling. It is called preferences and it's all about what I find sexually attractive. I am not going to date someone that I don't want to sleep with.
It's all about how appealing I find the overall package.
Why do you insist on seeing racism where there isn't any?
It wasn't me that grouped them all into one group, they did that to themselves by jumping to conclusions in emails they have sent to me and reactions after turning them down. They are using race as a way to strike out at me for thier frustration and really it makes them look like monsters to me. Other women not as strong as me would not have been able to handle this kind of behaviour as civilly as me and would begin to believe that all black men are ***holes.
If a woman doesn't find you appealing, she simply does not find you appealing and it has nothing to do with your race. It may even be the way you approached her. Maybe it's your attitude. Are you a smoker and she's a non smoker?
I was innocent of even knowing anything about racism, in fact many of my friends who are of various races had never even been exposed to it here until 1986 with the skinhead movement, I even knew one black female that had thrown herself in with the skinheads and I ended up getting into fights with her about how her people had just as much right to be here in Canada as everyone else. She honestly hated black people, especially black men. I loved the movie Romper Stomper btw where you see the skinheads get thier a$$es handed to them.
When I spoke with those kind of people I discovered I might as well be carrying on a debate with a bowl of porridge. I am now starting to have the exact same kind of problem with people just like JordanMardan. Same people, different skin colour.
Yes racism is a very real issue, but it has nothing to do with my sexual preferences.
My family does not have issues with race either. If you saw my family all together you would realise for yourself just how wrong you are about me and many other people.
It won't be for a few more generations that racism becomes watered down enough to be more tolerable, and not just on one side but BOTH SIDES!
If you read what JordanMardan posted you may start to see why people like me who were never even raised to be racist may be starting to become frustrated with black men in general. He took everything I said and twisted it into an entirely different meaning other than what I actually said to prove that I am racist where I am not.
On that note.
If I were an employer and I had a white man, a black man and a black woman sitting in my business waiting for a job interview. Try and guess which one I am most likely to hire?
The black woman! My experience has been that they are very hard working and really care about what they do. They are very well mannered when dealing with customers and know how to ALWAYS look pretty and clean. AND more often than not know how to recognise and deal with REAL racism effectively and quickly and still have a smile on thier face when they do it. | |
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EC22
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Joined: 4/25/2007
Msg: 325 | |
| How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 6/14/2007 11:49:59 AM | If you read what JordanMardan posted you may start to see why people like me who were never even raised to be racist may be starting to become frustrated with black men in general.
Generalizing all black men or all people of any group because of some people within that group or beacuse of some bad experiences is racist itself.
The black woman! My experience has been that they are very hard working and really care about what they do. They are very well mannered when dealing with customers and know how to ALWAYS look pretty and clean. AND more often than not know how to recognise and deal with REAL racism effectively and quickly and still have a smile on thier face when they do it.
More generalizations. There are hard working people and lazy whiners within any group of people. | |
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| Page 13 of 19
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