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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 10/22/2008 7:26:06 AM | | Ticking away, the moments that make up a dull day. ;-) | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 10/22/2008 7:28:25 AM | | You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 12:25:46 PM |
Time may NOT apply as many actually think it does. - - -
A measurement does not only serve to give meaning to a quantity,
it creates a particular value for this quantity.
Measurement=Creation principle.
It is an ontological principle.
I read your previous posts in this thread ho2 (although is seems you've changed your name slightly) and it appears that you may have altered your view on the matter.
you seemed to have had a heated debate previously and now it appears you lean more towards your antagonists point of view.
That is admirable | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 530 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 12:34:00 PM | Merely attempting to stir the pot in a different direction.
Debating has quite sophisticated arguing techniques and you will often
be in a position where you will have to argue the opposite of what you believe in. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 2:35:19 PM | My thoughts:
Time isn't just a measurement, but it's not as people perceive it as being a plane that can be traversed.
My personal evidence that time is something more than we perceive it as comes from Hawking's simplified explanation of the formation of a black hole.
A star reaches the point where it no longer has enough fuel to counter the force of gravity. It begins to collapse in on it's center of gravity, this goes on until it's reached the point where it's entire mass is now contained in one singular point of space.
That singular point of mass is called a singularity, the singularity begins to dig into the fabric of space-time, until it reaches the point where it falls through it's own event horizon. At that point it goes from having the gravity to hold together a solar system, to having the gravity to consume that solar system.
To picture this, imagine you have a lead ball sitting on a blanket that is stretched tightly, it condenses more and more, goes from curving the blanket to creating hold through the blanket, that point where the hole is formed is referred to as the event horizon; in other words, the point where the fabric of space-time is not strong enough to suspend the mass on it's surface.
That brings an interesting question that's puzzled me for a long time, where does that jump in gravity come from?
Initially I thought of space as a deformed sphere, it's center being where a black hole pulls matter into, but that wouldn't work because then all black holes would have an equal force of gravity (though it may still be true if the surface of the sphere is very deformed since gravity is a factor of distance and mass).
The other thought I had was that it gained mass from the position of the stars center of gravity along it's course through space, since space is relatively empty but not completely empty and a star traverses a very large distance during it's life, this could potentially make sense if I could just wrap my mind around that amount of mass in it's path from creation to formation of a black hole. For this to work time would have to be skewed somehow, which would suggest time isn't just a form of measuring change in systems.
But until I can wrap my mind around such things, I will probably continue to think of time as a measurement of change in systems. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 4:38:42 PM | | hi... time is a measure of our existence past , present and future... the twenty-four hr/ 7 day cycle was created at the beginning of life so that we could know that we followed a plan and that there was order... little known fact perhaps, a ~day~ in the bible begins with darkness at sunset vs our modern practiceof midnight to midnight... sunset to sunset is how it is meant to be measured.. blessings, warmly Mona | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 4:51:20 PM | Maybe time is just a consequence of intermittent frequency propagation, dancing around a field of uniform frequencies.
I don't even know if I worded that right.  | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 5:32:30 PM | okay so you have to take a listen to this 'Living on Oxford Time' episode of Ideas - a CBC program I heard this past Spring. Three researchers present their ideas on time.
David Deutsch, Julian Barbour, and Roger Penrose have each spent the last few decades thinking very deeply about the nature of time, and have come to some very counter-intuitive conclusions.
David Deutsch, a physicist, is known as a pioneer in the field of quantum computers. His 1997 book The Fabric of Reality explores multiple universes, causality, free will, and time travel. For Deutsch, the “flow” of time is an illusion. Sure, there is a moment we call “now” and later another “now” that takes its place – but the old now did not evolve into, or move toward, the new one. Both moments, Deutsch insists, are quite static. Physics, he says, tells us nothing about time’s “flow.” “I think time has quite a reputation for being mysterious,” he says. “There just are a few common-sense facts about it that we think we know. And the funny thing is, is that it’s those facts that are wrong.”
Julian Barbour is an independent researcher, a freelance theoretical physicist who also happens to have settled in Oxford. In his 1999 book The End of Time, he goes even farther than Deutsch, arguing that time itself does not exist – that it is merely a construct of the mind. The quantum universe, he insists, is static; only timeless “nows” exist. We have no evidence for the past, Barbour argues, other than our memory of it, and no evidence for the future other than our belief in it. All those nows, he says, are not a “sequence in time” within our universe – rather, they represent an array of universes, all of them frozen and unchanging. And what of time? It is “a mistake the mind has made,” he says. “I would say of time what Laplace said to Napoleon about God: ‘I have no need of that hypothesis.’”
One of the implications of this “timeless” perspective is that we are all, in a sense, immortal. Each stage of a person’s life, Barbour argues, exists permanently in some particular universe. “You” as a young child co-exists with “you” as a young adult and “you” as a senior citizen, simultaneously, somewhere in this vast set of universes. Julius Caesar, he says, is just as alive as you are.
Roger Penrose is a mathematical physicist; he’s known for establishing the existence of black holes, and for suggesting a link – however controversial – between quantum mechanics and consciousness. He is also the author, most recently, of The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe, a hefty tome of 1,000-plus pages.
For Penrose, as for Deutsch and Barbour, the flow of time is illusory. In relativity, Penrose reminds us, “one has just a ‘static’ four-dimensional space-time” – three for space and one for time – “with no ‘flowing’ about it. The space-time is just there and time ‘flows’ no more than does space.” It is only our conscious experience that seems to impose a flow onto this entity that we call time; our theories of physics make no mention of it. In other words, says Penrose, the puzzle of time is caught up with the puzzle of consciousness. And consciousness, at least for Penrose, is something we are not yet equipped to tackle. We’ll only come to understand the mind, he argues, when we develop a more complete theory of physics – that is, when we finally unify quantum theory with Einstein’s theory of gravity, known as general relativity. In the meantime, he can only muse that time “is not what we think it is... It’s not a steady progression – certainly not a sort of universal steady progression.”
beware - it will cost you 54 mins.
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/living-on-oxford-time/ | |
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mich0
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Joined: 10/24/2008
Msg: 535 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/3/2008 9:42:09 PM | | Depending on the concept, time is just another instrument of measure, like dates and numbers, that are used on a set of principles. For example, before 1 + 1 = 2, 1 had to be defined as 1 we know and 2 as the 2 we know, otherwise, it makes no sense at all. Matter a fact, I dont know if all that made sense... | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/8/2008 9:21:58 AM | As a layman who studies physics as a hobby I cannot really speak with authority on this topic.I can only reference David Hume(1711-1776}. Hume wrote."It is not possible for time alone to ever make it's appearance.Hume wrote."It made no sense to speak of time as having an absolute existence that was independent of observable objects whose movements permitted us to define time."
This idea that there is no such thing as absolute time would later echo in Einstein's theory of relativity. | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 537 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/8/2008 9:51:16 AM | Ahhh...and that idea from gypsy~road's post may hint at the truth.
There is no end and no beginning, it has existed forever and will exist forever.
Hence there never was a God and no big bang to start.
Infinity - the conundrum, catch 22, quandary of people who want a beginning.
Einstein was a religious person and struggled with the math till his grave. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/8/2008 10:43:38 PM |
Einstein was a religious person and struggled with the math till his grave
His religious belief are not the religious beliefs I believe you are refering to.
His views on religion are well quoted, and they certainly do not lie in the traditional interpretations of dogmatic beliefs.
Although I do agree that Einstein struggled with the math in the context of "Time"
P.S. Interesting looking article in "New Scientist" November issue - Claiming Albert might have gotten some of it wrong, relatively speaking :-) | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 539 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/9/2008 10:50:34 AM | There is no doubt Einstein got part of it wrong. Einstein tried use God in the equations
He is not the beat all, end all, game completed answer to it all.
He attempted to mathematically quantify items that don't adhere to the rules of math.
Infinity = energy forever, no start , no end, no God, no big bang.
e=mc squared doesn't begin to explain how energy came to exist,
hence it may just have been there forever whith no start or end.
A tough concept to swallow for those that want to believe energy has a beginning, like God
August 2008
Physicists at the University of Geneva's Group of Applied Physics have shown
that two photons can be connected in a way that seems to defy the very nature
of space and time, yet still obey the laws of quantum physics.
*__any signal passing between the entangled photons is, if not instantaneous,
travelling at least ten thousand times faster than light.__*
http://www.gap-optique.unige.ch/HomeExtras/SalartNewsandViews.pdf
The entire expanse of the univerrse may have started out as a singularity,
which may have been neither mass nor energy.
--negative time, before the singularity....who knows ??
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/9/2008 7:13:27 PM | E=mc2 Energy equals mass times the square speed of light.The speed of light,of course,is huge.Squared it is almost inconceivably bigger.That is why a tiny amount of matter,if convereted completely into energy,has an enormous punch. A kilogram of mass would convert into approximately 25 billion kilowatt hours of electricity.More vividly:the energy in the mass of one raisin could supply most of New York City's energy needs for a day.
As usual,Einstein ended by proposing experimental ways to confirm the theory he had just derived."Perhaps it will prove possible," he wrote,"to test this theory using bodies whose energy content is variable to a high degree,e.g,salts of radium." | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 541 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/9/2008 8:33:48 PM | Einstein didn't get it right.
Towards the end of his life Einstein was acutely aware that he had failed
to realize his dream of a unified field theory for matter.
He knew that his theory may not truly represent the reality of matter. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/11/2008 7:02:30 PM | @HO2
There is no end and no beginning, it has existed forever and will exist forever.
Hence there never was a God and no big bang to start.
......im afraid you got it wrong!........the notion that there is no absolute time (no begining & no end) very well infers the existence of a timeless God........God being the alpha & omega, with no beginning and no end, is well reflected by the entity we call "time".
......."forever" is something that we cannot know of beyond the confines of the known universe, as nothing in our realm goes on forever! | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 543 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/11/2008 7:31:50 PM | | God is a construct of humans - time exists without a God--it doesn't involve a higher being | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/12/2008 12:57:20 AM |
God is a construct of humans - time exists without a God--it doesn't involve a higher being
Ah, but is not time a construct of humans as well? | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 545 | |
| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/12/2008 11:05:23 AM | No, it isn't .
Time marches on without us. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/12/2008 10:18:26 PM |
No, it isn't .
Time marches on without us
This is similar to the God concept. How can you prove it?
If time marches on without us, how would you know if you are not there to observe the proof?
Nasty little chestnut there. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/12/2008 10:21:58 PM | ^
time exists without a God--it doesn't involve a higher being
.......this is merely your own supposition (drawn from personal experience), you can't prove this anymore than i can prove to you that there is a God (in or out of 'time'). | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/13/2008 1:07:44 AM | | Do all these postings mean that I wasn't 20, then 30, then 40, then 50....then etc. dead? All of my life was an illusion and none of anything made sense? As I am getting older, it it is indeed refreshing to see that everybody is still imbibing in L.S.D. Rave on. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/13/2008 10:08:34 PM | "Time" doesn't exist. It's a fiction created by clock makers, who simply follow the tradition of calendar makers.
Numbers don't exist, either, but that's too complicated to get into here.
"Time Travel," you see, is as simple as following a probability curve through a right angle. Really.
Let me explain:
What it is, is SMOKE.
Smoke powers everything electrical, and quite a few mechanical things. You see, if too much smoke gets out, it stops working. That's what killed steam engines, they wasted too much smoke...
But back to my point:
What this has to do with time is- ah, but the Great Wonder of Des Moines hasn't happened yet, so-
never mind, we'll discuss this in a few years. | |
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| What is TIME ??
Posted: 11/15/2008 7:49:03 AM | | I don't believe in it aside from its relation to distance. It is an illusion that is utilized to create a sense of uniformity and a way to agree on something for purposes of being functional within a controlled environment. When astronomers research the galaxies to observe transformations in current time that occurred thousands of years ago it is interesting. More than a remnant but the astrological events that took place indicate that people are remnants of the past in current time. As the present is the past and so on. How a person makes decisions based on this to me says more about the person rather than whether or not time is an illusion. | |
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