| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 6:22:37 PM | I believe that human morality is unrelated to religion and is the result of our having evolved the ability to empathise with others and feel their pain as if it is our own. this is not an ability that is confined to the human species. Rats, chimps, gibbons, wolves, racoons, dolphins, walruses and other animals display altruistic behaviour that stems from their ability to empathise.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," far from being a purely God given command, is more a neat way of encapsulating the principle of reciprocal altruism that is hard wired into our brains. Most of us practice it every day when we are driving our cars slowly in heavy traffic and signal the driver waiting in an adjoining side street ahead to pull out and take our place in the procession. We get a small thrill of satisfaction for being so nice, and feel an equal appreciative spark when the favour is returned. Thousands of these small altruistic acts keep the traffic flowing and benefit us all. I must admit I sometimes feel a small pang of conscience when I could be courteous to another driver and miss the opportunity through inattention or selfishness.
The driving example demonstrates a common daily micro-act of altruism. I assume it applies to almost everybody, but could be mistaken. Is there anyone out there who never willingly gives way to a fellow motorist?
As regards sexual morality and religion, I think it is logical to infer that religious rules about sexual conduct were formulated by community leaders in order to engineer their societies in what they regarded as a desirable direction. Scribbling them down in a book and adding GOD SAYS would have gone a long way towards ensuring compliance, and the addition of OR YOU'LL GET STONED! would have been a useful addition for persuading the dissenting few. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 6:33:45 PM | good point. Who is more moral - the person who does good things because s/he feels its the right thing to do, or the person who does good things because they seek reward/fear punishment in the afterlife? Such a presumptive dichotomy. 
Jesus once told a story about two sons who were told to do something by their father. the first said, "Yes, Father" and didn't do it. The second said, "No, Father" but changed his mind and did do it. Jesus asks, "Which son did the father's will?" He doesn't seem to focus on any presumed motive for the action, but rather the action itself. So I would conclude that whoever {b]does right is acting morally. And I agree with DA, there is no "more moral" - except in your presumptive dichotomy.. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 7:48:51 PM | You all make me laugh, every one has got morals, some people juat have a little more morals than others. I have met non christian who have farely high morals, and i have met people who call them selves christians that have quite low morals. But i haven't met any one who didn't have no morals at all.
The true christian faith teaches a very high moral standerd, there may be other faiths or religions that teach high morals but none as high as the christian faith.
The person who dose good because he/she feels it is the right thing to do is the true christian.
The person who dose good because he/she seeks reward or fears punishment in the afterlife, well it would seem to me that their heart aint right and if that is true then their good deeds probably won't do them much good. But wait that is not my call, God will be the judge. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:40:18 PM |
You all make me laugh, every one has got morals,
If you had higher morals, you might not wish to post who are you laughing at. Perhaps everyone does have morals, but by definition "morals" are a set of rules. I can see that many answers on this thread do not adhere to english language definitions of words, and typically would prefer to debate in cryptic codes. I have found many in the entire forum likewise, and it makes for difficulty in communication of ideas and concepts. Perhaps someone might wish to send me a dictionary which demonstrates the cryptic language.
Only those who have a religion or a philosophy have a written set of rules to qualify as a moral standard. Everyone else, should be capable of writing the rules themselves, or they themselves do not have the conviction necessary to call what they do have a "moral code." A set of rules can be flexible, but the more flexibility your set of rules has; the more likely it is to recieve an accusation of hypocrisy. If you never write it down, your ability to recognize your own failures will be diminished, and you might develop a habit of pointing and laughing at others. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:50:56 PM |
Only those who have a religion or a philosophy have a written set of rules to qualify as a moral standard.Everyone else, should be capable of writing the rules themselves, or they themselves do not have the conviction necessary to call what they do have a "moral code." In your opinion ;)
My moral compass is my heart, plain and simple, and whether it makes you or anyone else uncomfortable that I have not written the "code" down, well its workin just fine all the same :) | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:56:55 PM | | I had wished to respond to your earlier post regarding the very same belief. Since you again wish to bring it up, I would that anyone reading your contention attempt a logical analysis. I am sure that most will see the logical connection. Unfortunately, not everyone is capable of logic. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:57:02 PM |
He doesn't seem to focus on any presumed motive for the action, but rather the action itself. So I would conclude that whoever {b]does right is acting morally. And I agree with DA, there is no "more moral" - except in your presumptive dichotomy..
I disagree. The parable of the Prodigal son, tends to show that God does take circumstances into an account, The one son who always made the right moral was not treated the same as the one who made terrible choices, but finally made the right one.
The Parable about the servants and the talents also indicates that God realizes some are more capable than others, the one that hid his talent, did not do very well.
Making a 'right decision, is easy when you are content, well fed, no stress. That hungry person out there, makes a moral choice not to steal, well that is more moral I think than my self making the same choice , with a full belly . There are many who seem to go through lives with out any abnormal stress, it is easier for them to make moral choices.
Far more than those who have been in the Hell that this earth can be at times. My opinion, there is a difference. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 9:32:10 PM | | Whenever I describe how much I've given to charity and volunteered on self-help forums people are surprised that I'm an atheist. Personally I think they need to find out what it means to be a secular humanist. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/30/2008 9:38:27 PM |
Whenever I describe how much I've given to charity and volunteered on self-help forums people are surprised that I'm an atheist. Personally I think they need to find out what it means to be a secular humanist.
You would probably be surprised how much the real Jesus supports your actions. He said "you must be hot or cold," and atheism is the cold he spoke of. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 3:43:46 AM | Jesus also fed the poor and clothed the sick and cared for the lepers. He didn't pray for them, he got in there and did the work himself.
The major annoyance I have with people in organized religion is that they delegate the world's problem via prayer to God rather than doing the work themselves. When you get back from your year in Africa personally feeding the poor then you can come back and I'll listen to your story about hot and cold. Otherwise I'm not interested. There are too many pseudo-Christians who pray lots and do nothing.
Make a sandwich and hand it to the homeless person who lives under the bridge. You can make that a hot or cold sandwich, it doesn't really matter to me. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 7:17:12 AM | Make a sandwich and hand it to the homeless person who lives under the bridge. You can make that a hot or cold sandwich, it doesn't really matter to me.
You have a very valid point here. It was my daughter , an aethiest , who made me more aware of the homeless. When she was living in Montreal she volunteered at a center there.
As a father concerned about her safety, spent a week end there with her, real eye opener for sure. Realized that the risk, is something worth while, and she had a higher calling even if it was not the same as my own.
Thank you for doing, what I had mostly only prayed about! Prior to being taught this lesson on morals, by aethiest Punk Rock Daughter .
Funny, because her Great Grand Mothers worked for the Salvation Army years ago, in Detroit and Windsor. As a young lad, I had been taught to feed the homeless. Forgot all about that as I aged , was not emulating Christ as I should have been I guess. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 7:33:46 AM | | "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world."James1:27 | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 9:19:52 AM | | So how was your year in Africa personally feeding the poor? Just curious. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 9:55:12 AM |
romanticoptimist: "So how was your year in Africa personally feeding the poor? Just curious."
Well-spoken. In fact... I just asked my girlfriend if we could do this last week and she said "yes". Someone else had put this idea in my mind a month ago asking me what I'd do if I'd won the lottery. She listed all the stuff she'd buy and when it was my turn I said I'd go to Africa, feed people, set up farming or something sustainable... anything to help the starving.
If every penny taken in yearly from the top 20 churches in the U.S. and Canada alone were used to feed the hungry, you could feed one out of every six people on this planet... every day of the year. That's how much money is taken in every year.
In case you were looking for an excellent charity I put most of my money into Heifer dot org. I've donated a heifer, a llama, a water buffalo, a goat, a flock of geese and a hive of bees to families in third world countries. Somewhere somebody's life was changed by a little directed money on my part and honestly, that's a great feeling to know that you've made a difference. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 10:00:31 AM |
dunrich: "As a father concerned about her safety, spent a week end there with her, real eye opener for sure. Realized that the risk, is something worth while, and she had a higher calling even if it was not the same as my own."
If each one of us--we people who have "enough"--could just take a small amount of what we have left over, plus a little of our time and campassion... and we give that to someone who doesn't have enough then just think how much better this world would be. No more hunger. No parents worrying for their children. Hope. You'd be giving hope to others. That's what it's all about really.
We just have to stop spending our weekends shopping for ourselves to buy yet more stuff we don't honestly need. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 12:29:54 PM | TakeMeThe WayIAm,
I am sorry that you did not understand the meaning and feeling of my statement.
Jesus also fed the poor and clothed the sick and cared for the lepers. He didn't pray for them, he got in there and did the work himself.The major annoyance I have with people in organized religion is that they delegate the world's problem via prayer to God rather than doing the work themselves
I feel the same way, and typically illustrate the point by offering the analogy to worshipping a Plastic Jesus. The real Jesus used similar analogies and metaphors to illustrate the same complaints, and as you said, pitched in.
When you get back from your year in Africa personally feeding the poor then you can come back and I'll listen to your story about hot and cold. Otherwise I'm not interested. I would take offense to that remark if I were not a humanist, as well. I would question you ability to be the humanist which you say you are. If your year in Africa was significant, I appreciate that. If I used your logic, I would require at least three more years of work from you to "be interested" in a single sentence of yours. I don't apply such illogical conclusions. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 1:42:58 PM | I don't know I managed it, but somehow I started replying to posts from the first page. I decided to post the responses anyway.
Planetsatan,
You're too honest for your nick. You perfectly illustrate the amorality of those who do not accept a guiding philosophy. Your fluid method works for many people. I apologize for attempting to impress the idea that morality is a defined set of rules. It surely goes against the common wisdom, although that is exactly how it is defined in the dictionary. I am not saying that the common wisdom is so wrong as it is imperfect. Maybe it is the dictionary which should be revised.
NewWayHome,
What you are saying is that even with a religion or philosophy, people are very capable of failing to adopt a set of rules for morality. This is the failure of many modern religions and philosophies. The clarity is missing, and the personal acceptance of the specific rules is neither recognized by the elite, nor taught to the flock. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 8/31/2008 6:42:53 PM | | the most agnostic man i knew was the sweetest man i had ever met. lived to love and loved to live. i fell in love with his son who had the best morals of any grown man. wonder where he learnt that? | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/6/2008 12:16:49 PM | | Religion is one thing some believe if a strong believer and have faith you have morals now what about the ones who dont share the same faith or religion im sure there are plenty men and women that have morals with out religion in the way so i can say this i dont steal,rape,murder,drink or take drugs, i was raised to show respect to others and have manors. and i dont believe in god or gods imagine that. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/6/2008 3:41:19 PM | I do not think that a person needs to be religious to be a moral person. IMO religion does not hold a monopoly on morality and ethics. There are certain verses in the Bible include genocide of entire tribes of people, and very harsh punishments, including death if one is caught working on the Sabbath.
Biblical morality, including Islamic morality does not live up to today's standards of human-rights and morality. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/6/2008 5:42:40 PM | "Is what is piouscommanded by the Gods because it is moral, or is it pious because it is commanded by the Gods?"
Plato's "Euthyphro" does a good job of showing how morality can be separated from theology. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/10/2008 4:56:52 PM |
More moral? I do not think such a thing can exist. I believe that there is moral and there is immoral.
What about amoral? From what I understand, it is when our actions are right , but for the wrong motives. Example, I see nothing wrong with going 100 kliks on a road near me with a 60 klik speed limit. But do 60 because it is a well known speed trap. My choice is not a moral one, simply do not want the consequences is all.
Sometimes an immoral act can in a way be a moral one. Ask any soldier who served in Somalia the rage they felt when they saw well clothed, fed humans in a sea of people starving to death. Kicking them, was certainly a "moral choice", as in their hearts what they wanted to do was murder them.
Easy to define what is moral or not, to people all well fed, with a cop on every corner to protect them. Most of this damn world is not like that though.
What is bad to spoiled old North Americans, is nothing to some in this world. Immoral to a well fed person here, is simply a choice between life and death to some in this world. Life meaning, I will be around to care for my kids, family, maybe hope for the future of a country at times. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/10/2008 6:12:13 PM | What about amoral? For there to be that possibilty, than my God would have to be a liar, so no, I dont think it possible.
From what I understand, it is when our actions are right , but for the wrong motives. Example, I see nothing wrong with going 100 kliks on a road near me with a 60 klik speed limit. But do 60 because it is a well known speed trap. My choice is not a moral one, simply do not want the consequences is all.
You did not disobey mans law, sure your motive was not as white as snow, but you clearly broke no law, including Gods. *stamps moral on posters forehead*
I can see you are attempting to include other scenarios in this whole thing (fallen world) but Im afraid that youd have to give me an example of a situation for me to take to my handy dandy Word of God to hold it to the moral mirror. | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/10/2008 6:21:38 PM |
Gods Law instructs us to always obey mans law unless we are told to disobey God. Hmmm.... unless we are told to disobey God? Who would tell us to do that??
God's law.. as in.. the old testament? If that is the case then get your weapons on the ready DA, you have quite a few non-believers to slay ;) | |
|
| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 9/10/2008 6:32:31 PM | Hmmm.... unless we are told to disobey God? Who would tell us to do that??
Happens all the time, darlin. Just ask a priest in Canada who was incarcerated for preaching the Word of God, as he was instructed to in the NT.
He was ordered to refrain from preaching and chose to disobey mans law because it forced him to disobey Gods Law.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66247 | |
|
Home
login 
