| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 8:27:25 AM | | ^^^^^and my question again is....how can one be absolutely certain unless you actually witnessed the act. yes....social workers are trained to make such calls but it's still a very difficult thing to do.....they are also expected to make those calls if there is suspect of abuse | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 8:31:40 AM | often if an abused woman is in the midst of her relationship.......there is so much denial, and lies....that she can not see the Truth.....as a parent.......I would like to think, that whenever we are hit with any such Accusations.....especially if they are coming from OUR children....we would definitely give it some immediate attention........KIDS are usually the LAST TO TELL.....and obviously she must of tried her mom first.....but did not get the attention she needed.......or direction.......so she felt safe enough with the OP....to tell.....
How many times do we hear the Abuser tell the victim if they tell thier mother it will be hell or serious consequences.......yet the child usually will go to the parent....and but it in terminology where thier age warrents it........the wording that you used.......is so in target that YES this did HAPPEN.......and TO HELL WITH ALL FRIENDSHIPS>......this mother needs to have reality kick the shit out of her........so she can BE THE PARENT....that she needs to be to this child.......and the other child she just had........It really is that simple.......rascal.....I am sorry for your friend.....I know a few might wreck the credibility for most reports.....but that number is so few.......and the lives of the child are horribly reflected all of their lives.......this is serious.......and deserves NO OTHER RECOURSE.......
OP........I not only commend you.......but if you need a freind to replace her......I am sure you will find them here on POF.........and I stand at the front of the LINE....
I was in an abusive marriage.......and I know of others on here who will attest to the same.....we are not thinking PROPERLY....otherwise we would of gotten out way before we did....Lucky for me....the abuse was on me as an adult.....but when the kids finally asked why I stayed with him.....was the day I walked out........with them of course....realizing....that not only was the abuse affecting my life.....but the children were getting horribly misdirected.......My kids are what gave me the strength to leave.....and never a day goes by that I am not thankful for that.......I think this lil child one day will also thank God that there is peeps out there that cared enough to stop the cycle.....of abuse.... | |
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Mayor
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Joined: 1/2/2006
Msg: 28 | |
| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 8:33:55 AM | like everything else angel there are no 100% of anything, there is never any clear line in the sand, best you can hope for is that you have enough belief in your own value system to make the right call, haveing done that, why is there a need to 2nd guess, sorry i persoanlly don't see one.
and yes the do say suspect, again where is the line, everyone i suspect has different levels of what would make them place such a call for an investigation, and we have all heard stories on both sides how some poor kids have slipped through the cracks, and some poor souls have had families destroyed for no reason. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 9:02:43 AM | Without a doubt some people when it comes to this topic need to pull there head out of there ass .For gods sake if anyone suspects a child is being abused in any way they should make the call and have it investigated .I myself have done so and would not hesitate for one second to do it again ,losing a freindship over it, big freaking deal if there is something you as an adult do not think is right then do something about it .
I made the call and had a mother after investigations were through charged with 2 counts of assult ,did i lose a freind ..yes, do i care ,not one single bit ,because if you will abuse your children i don't want you as a freind .
No child could ever do anything that would call for physical sexual or emotional abuse and i don't give a damn how stressed out or whatever a paren t uses for an excuse for any type of abuse it is just not right period .
Alwatys better safe than sorry when it comes to childrens safety ,let the athourities figure it out ,then if needed take further steps because come on people an abuser will never admit they did anything wrong because they are gutless cowards and anyone that would abuse a child in any way is a gutless coward not worthy of having children and should be locked up and have the key thrown away .
Edit ....If i were the ex and you told me about this situation beleieve me there would be a few investigations going on including the possible assult charges i would be facing after i had dealt with the pill popping boyfreind and the ex ........i would lose it and you better believe they would be seeing mwe before anyone else if it were my child .no one and i mean no one would ever harm my children as long as i am alive ,because they are the one thing that i would kill to protect as well as die to protect without hessitation . | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 9:10:26 AM | You sooo did the right thing! Personally if a child of 4 had of said those things to me, I would have had a hard time leaving her in that environment even one more day ~ Yes, kids make up stories and tell lies for attention, however, there shouldn't be ANY sexual information in their little heads at that age and if she had said those things to me, I would have taken action right then and there....Is he guilty?? Under these circumstances - until proven innocent!! If it were a teenager or even a slightly older child (9+) and they had the opportunity to hear all sorts of things in playgrounds and actually realize the implication of it all, then that might be cause for some hesitancy...although from the description of the boy-friend and his history and habits...I would certainly have had it investigated immediatley...You did good!
Better if they are put through some uncomfortable situations, stress and/or harrassment right now than for the child to continue living in that possible hell ~ kids are priority ~ they need us to protect them and if their immediate family can't/won't....someone needs to step in to ensure that they are being looked after!!!
This is one of those - beyond anger scenarios for me! I don't care if he is being falsely accused....if a child is saying it, it has to be investigated and not hushed up on the off chance that she is fibbing....better he suffer some, than her suffer at all...
edit: As for the friendship ~ I would be happy to see the last of her if she was so cold-hearted about her childs comments and/or blinded by her boy friends abuse!!! | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 9:29:09 AM | bottom line, kids that age do not lie.
u did the right thing.
if she is a true friend, she will thank you for this, at some point. sounds to me like the mother has self esteem issues if she keeps that idiot around. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 10:51:17 AM | | Remember folks, you cannot be sued in Ontario for calling the Police of CFS/CAS (Whatever it's called in your area) if you in good faith believe that a child is in danger... | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:09:37 AM | For those posters wondering why some of the men would not support the OPs decision to call CAS, here's a few points to ponder. This comes from personal experience of knowing someone who was falsely accused and later acquited... in this case the adult went directly to the police... the repercussions:
1) $28,000.00 in legal fees
2) A broken marriage
3) Estrangement between mother and daughter that lasted longer than 5 years
4) A permanent record with CAS and the police... despite being acquited the charges stay on the record.... this man will continue to be rejected for any job applications requiring a police check, and will never be able to volunteer to work with children as a coach or in any other capacity requiring police clearance.
All because a little girl lied.
OP's actions have set this couple down the same path. Hope she's sure she's right, because if not a terrible injustice is going to occur for both these parents and the little girl in question | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:11:28 AM | people in certain professions that work with children are required to report anything in regards to the welfare of children. as far as being worried about your friendship, personally, i'd sacrifice any of my friendships in exchange for in good concsious calling officials in regards to potential sexual/physical or emotional abuse on a child.
it wasnt that you did it when you had a feeling... you did it as a result of a private conversation with the child. all you did was report the conversation you had with the child.
whether officials choose to investigate or how far they pursue the matter is not up to you. they are the professionals and if they feel there is nothing to pursue, they won't.
yes, there are cases of incorrect reporting and lies but i wouldn't want to take that chance, personally. in fact, a very good friend of mine has been investigated by the authorities in regards to her son because he suffers from schizophrenia and she chose alternative therapies. but it still worked out and there were no long-term consequences and she nor her son did not suffer the consequences. indeed, they've spoken to her about her course of action of the two years because of the improvement and now she works with them positively. but she also understood their position and while it wreaked havoc, they have their job to do too. | |
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Mayor
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Joined: 1/2/2006
Msg: 35 | |
| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:24:25 AM | yes, there are cases of incorrect reporting and lies but i wouldn't want to take that chance
Remember folks, you cannot be sued in Ontario for calling the Police of CFS/CAS (Whatever it's called in your area) if you in good faith believe that a child is in danger...
hum if i understand this correctly and it is accurate, you don't have to worry about not taking the chance no one can hold you responsible for your actions. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:27:51 AM | ^^^^ Sorry to disagree with you Rascal, but, the possible fallout of a possibly false accusation into a possible misunderstanding of a possible lying 4 year old in a family (not that I honestly believe a 4 year old would know or speak of such things...) of known substance abusers with a violent-enabling relationship at the head of it....just doesn't add up on the scales against the best interest of the child...
(BUT, I am, all the same deeply sorry for your acquaintance whose life was sadly/grievously ruined...)
Op, you did the right thing, and sorry for your non-loss of possibly "good" friends...
JMO | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:30:23 AM | Ya know... I am a firm believer that MOST (let me stress MOST abused women need to get up on their own two feet if they are not willing to take help or advice from friends and family. At the end of the day they are grown enough to make decisions for themselves, yes you can feel sorry for them but they choose to be left alone in these situations.
BUT when a unstable relationship such as this carries abuse to children that is where the pity party stops.
Would you have called if it was your neighbour? Chances are you would... so why would you not call in this case. Fact of the matter is there is a innocent child crying for help and NO ONE in a authoritive position is listening to her.
Don't feel guilty, don't feel sorry... you did the right thing. 
I just read through some other posts (didn't realize there was a second page, and I kinda half asses the first one)
This little girl is 5 years old! How does the OP know if the little girl is lying?
She doesn't... she has no idea, but the child approached HER and told her she is at the very least uncomfortable with the way this man touches her. Not to mention this man IS abusive to the mother... and OP has had to pry him off of her friend. I could understand the hesitation if this was coming from a well rounded, balanced family, but this is clearly anything BUT.
Imagine OP finding out in 10 years by this little girl that she asked for help and was ignored??? They ALREADY have a open case with CAS/FACS on proven wrong doing, so why would OP hesitate? This child is clearly crying out for help and if SOMEONE doesn't step in and help her, this child will slip through the cracks and hate herself, the world and everyone in it and possibly become a mirror image of her mom, because no one taught her the right way. Or thought to save her from her ordeal - NO CHILD deserves to be mistreated, even if the MOM is willing to accept it for herself!!!
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:44:38 AM | never mind what it does to someones reputation. thats not the important part, the important part is the child.
what if this child was not lying, and the person chose not to report it ?
then what ? u have just sentanced a child to a lifetime of hell.  | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:49:13 AM | | As someone who has had their life torn apart by CAS for a number of years for false accusations, I still think you did the right thing. I normally have a no calling CAS policy on other people, but I will call about suspected molestation or if I witness a person hitting their child. It is really hard to go through these kind of things, but I wish someone had called the CAS when I was a child and tried to protect me. Plus with what I am going through at the moment I wish someone had called, because the CAS won't believe me when I tell them about my ex.'s abuse towards my children. This was witnessed by other people, but they didn't want to hurt me, so they didn't call or report it. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:49:15 AM | | If the man you are talking about Rascal was indeed found not guilty and i mean not guilty he only has to see a lawyer and have the records destroyed as a freind of mine did that was falsely accused of sexual assult .You record stays if you were found Quilty if not guilty i can be removed ,just so long as he was not found Quilty of the crime ,now if he got a conditional verdict for some reason opr another that is a totally differnat thing .the main Qusetion is was he fully exhonered (sp) for the chargwes he faced ????????????? | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:56:14 AM | | TO RASCAL - So what your saying is OP should be present when sexual abuse is occuring... that unless she sees it with her own two eyes, the child is lying... better yet, why doesn't OP just face the man and ask her HERSELF if he says no... then he didn't do it... I agree that not all reports are proven. But OP is not dreaming this up she is getting a cry for help from this child. Like Tabbs said, should we just condemn this child to live in hell until she is old enough to tell the "truth"? And when will that be in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? That's a high price to pay for the sake of not ruining someones reputation. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 12:42:08 PM | 1) $28,000.00 in legal fees
2) A broken marriage
3) Estrangement between mother and daughter that lasted longer than 5 years
4) A permanent record with CAS and the police... despite being acquited the charges stay on the record.... this man will continue to be rejected for any job applications requiring a police check, and will never be able to volunteer to work with children as a coach or in any other capacity requiring police clearance
All because a little girl lied.
OP's actions have set this couple down the same path. Hope she's sure she's right, because if not a terrible injustice is going to occur for both these parents and the little girl in question
Legal Fees:legal aid will be available in most if not all cases
Marriage:if the marriage didn't survive, maybe it wasn't strong enough to begin with
Estrangement:there had to be underlying issues that would cause the child to lie in the first place
Record:this can be removed from your record if they take the time to get a pardon, and it would not appear on your record if you were found not guilty to begin with. If they were found not guilty and it appears on their record they can put in a petition to the court to have it removed immediately(but to do this they have to provide documentation from the court saying they were found not guilty OF ALL CHARGES). My guess is your friend was found guilty on atleast one of the charges that were brought against him and that would be why he has a record. As for CAS...My ex sister in law is a CAS worker and has told me that if a suspect is found not guilty on all charges by the courts, they can request CAS to remove any and all records from their system.
OP I think you did the right thing. Children that age shouldn't know about things like that. If we as adults don't protect the kids who will? I agree with everyone else who has said better to cause a bit of discomfort for the adults and protect the child, rather than let it slide and cause a child a lifetime of trauma, and mental issues. Well done hon! I would have done the exact same thing *hugs* | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 1:07:28 PM |
better to cause a bit of discomfort for the adults
OK... to clarify... I don't know if the OP did the right thing or not... only she knows how sure she is about whether the child is telling the truth or not... and if she's certain enough to warrant the consequences then I'd agree that she did the right thing
My point is that there are serious and severe consequences once this ball starts rolling, and nobody should take it lightly.
Yes, legal aid is available if your income is low enough to qualify, and if you want to take the risk of not having the best possible representation
Yes, perhaps the marriage was shaky, but it was the allegations and the stress of fighting them that pushed it over the edge... it may have survived otherwise
Yes, of course there were underlying issues that caused the child to lie in the first place... and had the adult who reported to the police talked to the mother first, then the child may have confessed to her lie right then, instead of being backed into a corner by the police.
As to the record... my friend was found not guilty of all charges, and whenever he is required to do a police check (for a job, for example) the check comes up with the charges and the results... and how many HR people do you know who are going to take the chance that he didn't just get off because he had a good lawyer?... this cannot be removed from police records.
As to CAS, perhaps differing jurisdictions have different policies, but he looked into having the records removed and was informed by his lawyer that it could not be done. (perhaps things have changed... this happened 15 years ago)
I agree that children need to be protected. I myself have called police when I've witnessed abuse. My point is that people should not take such a thing lightly and report on suspicion only... there can be serious ramifications to that action. Recognize and think about the consequences for all parties concerned before taking such a step. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 1:38:04 PM | it's all well and good to say yes.....if i witness abuse.....i would call the authorities
i think it's safe to say that all sexual molestations would never be witnessed by anyone other than the victim. the abuser is too clever to be caught this way. they threaten the child into being silent and then into believing that if they told anyone that perhaps family members would be hurt. so sometimes the signs are not all that cut and dried
i also have to wonder what was going on for the little girl who lied.....definitely something not right there and hope she got some sort of help | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 1:43:27 PM | | And the OP has stated that she didn't just do this off the cuff...she went to the family, the mother and the real father and gave them time to think and make changes...when nothing was done about, she THEN went ahead and called CFS. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 2:40:50 PM | "anyways he's a pill popper amoung other things and when he drinks (which is often) he gets violent. i've had to pull him off of her on several occasions."
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!
Heck this whole family situation wreaks of ABUSE AND DISFUNCTION
If I were you........I would have called the cops on this guy the first time you had to pull him off of her!!!!
Children should not be exposed to that lifestyle period!!!!! Any third party can report abuse if they even suspect that it is occuring. Leave it to the professionals who truly have the best interest of the children at hand!!!!
To those who have had this situation happen to friends and family and it back-fired......I regret that this happened ....but at least the proper authorities were involved to investigate the situation and surely if any action had been taken for things to get so far.....there must have been some really good reasons as to why the children in question were making such accusations in the first place!
It is always easier to make judgement on others when it doesn't involve your own family. Only then, I would bet money that you would have a difference of opinion! | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 3:39:27 PM | To Rascal and Mayor:
Yes, false allegations are beyond terrible. They can destroy people. There was a study in Ottawa regarding cases of divorce where a parent is accused of abuse, 40% were proved false (wow!) But, yes, legal costs were incurred by the alleged perpetrator. Furthermore, unless you make less than a certain amount, legal aid is NOT an otpion.
However, how do you prove this 4 year old lied? How do you prove she told the truth? As a lay person, you would not have the knowledge, nor the access to the child to get to the substance of the matter.
What exactly would you have someone do? Ask if you can watch??? I understand that is a stupid question, but do you think the guy is going to confess? Do you think the mother is going to say anything? No way.
I had someone close who was sexually abused by her father (he also abused all of her brothers and sisters) and, when, at 14, she told her mother, and begged her to leave, she was told, "I've got 15 years of my life invested in this marriage. I am not leaving him".
The OP did the only thing she could do in this situation - call in someone who could investigate the matter properly, because she could not. She confronted the mother, she confronted the father, she spoke to the family - she tried everything possible to avoid going to the CAS. She did THE RIGHT THING.
You question the truthfulness of the child's statement and say that she might confess after ruining these peoples' lives. But, what if the child is speaking truthfully? Would you let it go? Would you condemn that child to such a horrid life? How do you KNOW she is lying? Because mommy is so blind with love for this guy hat she lets him physically abuse her? Because this guy says he didn't?
The right thing was done.
p.s. I have had bad experiences with the CAS, not because of what I did, but because of what someone else did that I reported, and I still say the OP did the right thing. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 4:12:58 PM | From the Ontario Association of Children's Aid Services:
Responsibility to report a child in need of protection
CFSA s.72(1)
If a person has reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is or may be in need of protection, the person must promptly report the suspicion and the information upon which it is based to a children's aid society.
Also...
Ongoing duty to report CFSA s.72(2)
The duty to report is an ongoing obligation. If a person has made a previous report about a child, and has additional reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is or may be in need of protection, that person must make a further report to a children's aid society.
In some provinces, it is a criminal act not to report suspicions on abuse. In Ontario, only professionals working closely with children are legally obliged to report.
You absolutely did the right thing and as stated in the act, you have a duty to continue reporting any new information you have.
There is a lot more information on the oacas(.org) website.
You should also know that you cannot be sued for libel for reporting unfounded suspicions unless it was done so maliciously. | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/7/2007 4:43:05 PM | @ YLAM...
Although this is a touchy subject, it deffinately needs to come up and discussed openly.
I think, let me rephrase that...I KNOW you did the right thing. Don't worry about what your friend is feeling or thinking right now towards you. In the long run, she will thank you for dealing with the issue at hand the way that you did.
A lot of us have children and want the best for our child. You took the leap, did what your heart told you to do, and stepped up to the plate as a real friend should do. If he is, in fact, a diddler, then he deserves to be behind bars and locked away. Our children are too presious not to take the stand for them and to give them a voice. You are a hero, in my eyes! Whenever a child, no matter what age, says that someone in their life is touching them in ways that they shouldn't, it should deffinately be looked into.
How would you feel if you did nothing, and the situation got worse. The young girl felt confident enough in you to talk to you about it, and that should screem volumes to you.
Kuto's to you, my friend. You did the right thing!! I owe you a drink!
Spanks
xo | |
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| calling childrens welfare
Posted: 3/8/2007 12:01:15 AM | Hind-sight........
Sadly, these type of people get off.......... At times when one goes straight to the authorities or child protection they setup some sort of a sting operation.....and catch the guy or girl..... Just because the guy was abusive to the woman doesn't mean he abused the child.... innocent until proven guilty....
Remember a professional does all these tests too......sadly a professional never questioned the child......and you will be checked out too....and anyone alone with the child....
Anyway, the child will be closely monitored now........schools will be made aware....workers etc....
Remember when one is accused and he/she knows the accuser watch your back and take all safety precautions -this is not to be taken lightly. From now on any contact you have to keep a trail of evidence....if this guy is accused and is proven innocent he will be out for bear....law suites etc....he/she will always be labeled
Wishing you the best....
0:)
PS Happy the child will be closely monitored now..... | |
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