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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/22/2007 6:19:27 AM | "As was pointed out, President Clinton fired all 93 in one fell swoop. The fact that it occurred at the start of his administration as opposed to mid-level is thunderously irrelevent."
The fact that this was done mid-term bothers me less than this:
"Several top lawmakers, including Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), have been particularly angered by a little-noticed provision slipped into USA Patriot Act legislation last year that allows Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales to appoint replacement prosecutors, such as Griffin, on an indefinite basis."-washington post 2/7/07
This was an underhanded back door way to bypass Senate confirmation. Clinton and Reno did it by the book. This adminstration rewrites "the book" whenever they see fit....whenever it suits their political aims.
"Likewise, the allegations that there is some nefarious purpose behind the firings and they somehow portend an end to democracy are, to be kind, laughable"
I'm not laughing.
[Deputy AG]McNulty acknowledged that six U.S. attorneys in the West and Southwest were notified in December that they would be asked to step aside, including the lead prosecutor in San Diego, whose office oversaw the bribery conviction of a former Republican congressman.-wash. post 2/7/07
No nefarious purpose there huh?
"Mr. Rove’s claims today that the Bush administration’s purge of qualified and capable U.S. attorneys is “normal and ordinary” is pure fiction. Replacing most U.S. attorneys when a new administration comes in — as we did in 1993 and the Bush administration did in 2001 — is not unusual. But the Clinton administration never fired federal prosecutors as pure political retribution. These U.S. attorneys received positive performance reviews from the Justice Department and were then given no reason for their firings.
We’re used to this White House distorting the facts to blame the Clinton administration for its failures. Apparently, it’s also willing to distort the facts and invoke the Clinton administration to try to justify its bad behavior."-thinkprogress.org
We've certainly seen this tactic before.....even from posters here on pof. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/22/2007 7:06:09 PM | And the saga continues...
Senate follows House, authorizes subpoenas of Rove, other top White House aides Published: Thursday, March 22, 2007 | 8:39 PM ET Canadian Press: JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS
WASHINGTON (AP) - Senators joined the House on Thursday in approving subpoenas to force U.S. President George W. Bush's political adviser and other aides to testify about the firings of federal prosecutors, setting off new efforts to avoid a dragged-out court fight.
Democrats portrayed the subpoena authority, approved on voice vote by both the House and Senate Judiciary committees, as a bargaining chip in negotiations over the terms of any testimony by White House political adviser Karl Rove.
The committees' chairmen, Sen. Patrick Leahy, (D-Vt.), and Representative John Conyers, (D-Mich.), appeared in no rush to issue subpoenas to White House officials and provoke a standoff.
Talks continued behind the scenes, officials said, even as the White House and majority Democrats engaged in strategic posturing before the cameras.
In letters Thursday, Senate and House Democrats rejected White House counsel Fred Fielding's offer to let Rove and other administration officials talk about their roles in the firings, but only on Bush's terms: in private, off the record and not under oath.
"I have never heard the Senate take an ultimatum like that," Leahy said. "I know he's the decider for the White House. "But he's not the decider for the United States Senate."
White House spokesman Tony Snow cast the administration's offer to allow Rove, former White House counsel Harriet Miers and their deputies talk to legislators in private as the best deal Democrats are going to get.
"We opened with a compromise," Snow told reporters. "By our reaching out, we're doing something that we're not compelled to do by the Constitution." But, he added, "The phone lines are still open."
The developments came as Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, struggling to save his job from increasing calls for his resignation over the firings, promised to co-operate with Congress.
"I'm not going to resign," Gonzales told reporters after an event in St. Louis, the first of a series of meetings with federal prosecutors in coming days in an apparent attempt to patch up relations tattered by the scandal.
"No United States attorney was fired for improper reasons," Gonzales said.
Representative Paul Gillmor, (R-Ohio), said Gonzales has become a "lightning rod" for criticism, joining a growing number of Republican legislators who want Gonzales out. "It would be better for the president and the department if the attorney general were to step down," Gillmor said.
Members of both parties want to know why the Justice Department fired eight well-regarded U.S. attorneys over the winter; whether politicians pressured the prosecutors to rush corruption cases; and whether the firings were punishments for the prosecutors' balking at Bush administration priorities.
Legislators also want answers on whether the firings were to make way for more loyal Bush allies, as the White House has acknowledged doing in Arkansas.
Gonzales has said that he intends to submit every replacement appointee to the confirmation process. But an e-mail from his then-top aide suggests the intent was to use delays that would let the replacement prosecutors serve without Senate approval through the rest of Bush's term.
Such inconsistencies have engulfed Gonzales in an uproar in which the administration is accused of crossing a fine line that allows presidents to replace federal prosecutors, but not if the intent is to influence investigations. It is customary for presidents to replace all 93 U.S. attorneys at the beginning of a term in office, but not to single out a few in midterm.
The Senate committee voted to approve, but not issue subpoenas for Rove, former White House counsel Harriet Miers and her former deputy, William Kelley. © The Canadian Press, 2007 | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 28 | |
| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/22/2007 10:21:38 PM | I think it's problamatic when GWB is getting ready to retire...he's almost done. Why would he now want to go on a firing streak so late into his last term? I smell something is up.
Notable firing: a lawyer investigating a republican found to have accepted a $2 million dollar bribe! That lawyer was immediately removed from his post.
...coincidence? NOT! I think it's a cover up for something big and an attempt to scuttle this and other investigations like it. Republicans, IMO, are on a pillaging spree before the 2008 election and want to protect their friends and they are taking out prosecutors who go after them.
Clinton deep-sixed the prosecutors very very early....he certainly didn't wait until the end. Something is up and I think there's a lot of corruption with this arrogant and evil gov't. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 9:43:04 AM |
Acknowledging as we must, that the attorney generals serve at the pleasure of the President, I fail to see the rational behind the hysterics over the firings.
As was pointed out, President Clinton fired all 93 in one fell swoop. The fact that it occurred at the start of his administration as opposed to mid-level is thunderously irrelevent.
Likewise, the allegations that there is some nefarious purpose behind the firings and they somehow portend an end to democracy are, to be kind, laughable. If the firings were due to an attempt at suppressing evidence and circumventing an investigation, such actions would sooner or later (sooner, I would guess) come to light, either through some whistleblower, or Congressional investigation.
Hardly the demise of democracy.
If the administration can be faulted, it would be in the hesitant nature of Gonzales' managerial style. He seems to lack the decisive personality to make a decision and stick to it that was the hallmark of AG Ashcroft.
The fact that Gonzales isn't trusted by conservatives doesn't help him either.
See my whole thing is, if there wasn't any wrong-doing with the firings, all the White House had to do was come out and state why they did what they did-but they are choosing to clam up instead. Tony Snow could've said something like for example: "This prosecutor was fired because he/she did ______ (<- insert action here), and the President found that to be detrimental."
Simple enough, eh? Apparently not, as they're clamming up when questioned about the reasons for firing the prosecutors. And as I've said, they want everything kept quiet and off the record. I find that to be troubling.
Now yes, the President should have the power to fire certain people as long as IT'S DONE BY THE BOOK, NOT by some sneaky little provision. That has to be some sly Mickey Mouse B.S. for a president to pull.
And at this point, Gonzales isn't really respected by anyone.....this is my little conspiracy theory, but I think that Bush may have appointed him just to capture the Hispanic vote.
Now Tort, don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of respect for you and all (as I respect those who can keep to the facts), but I disagree with your post. Good Day. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 5:54:59 PM | The firings (of the prosecutors) were for just cause and furthermore, the firings were indeed done by the "book".
The fact is that President Clinton fired 93 prosecutors at a sitting, and nothing was said; the outrage was non-existent.
President Bush only fires a handful of incompetent (even lawyers can be morons and boobs) attorneys, and those elements in the United States opposed to him raise a cacophonous outcry over what is a legitimate prerogative of the Executive branch.
Frankly, the continued outrage mystifies me and Bruno (my 4 pound Yorkie). | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 6:41:29 PM | Tort ... the firings were done by the book? Really ..? Hmmmmm ... if that were the case .. there wouldn't be all of these fireworks .. your assertion that these lawyers were a "handful of incompetents" is unsupported ... in fact .. six of the eight lawyers were HIGHLY REGARDED .. and had served with distinction ... as well as achieving outstanding conviction rates ..
No one is saying the President does not have the right to fire those who serve at his favor .. that's NOT the question ... its HOW THEY WERE FIRED ... that begs further review ...
Claims of deriliction of duty/incompetence .. DEFAMED these prosecuters, harming their reputation and their ability to secure future employment .. when they complained about the treatment .. and brought their complaint to the light of day .. the White House's story started to change .. then multiply .. until it no longer represented anything credible ...
Caught by the short hairs .. Gonzalez twisted in the wind .. everything fell to pieces when emails between Karl Rove and the AG dept surfaced .. (even the redacted versions were damaging to the White House's ORIGINAL assertions claiming "no knowledge").
Caught in the crosshairs of an emerging investigation .. further stonewalling and failed multiple excuses de jour have left anyone with a shred of confidence in this Administrations ability to tell the truth .. shaken .. (not stirred) ..
As for the Administrations critics? Who could stop them now? A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie .. even Tony Snow is starting to get red in the face as he attempts to re-state the obvious .. the President better win in his fight to keep those involved in this mess from testifying .. no one wants to be convicted of lying under oath .. on the record .. by my count ... there's plenty of very nervous people out there that have a lot of re-explaining to do .. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 6:47:53 PM |
The fact is that President Clinton fired 93 prosecutors at a sitting, and nothing was said; the outrage was non-existent.
Tort of course as always leaves out an important fact, that this firing occured at the begining of his term, like most presidents. The disturbing thing about this set of firings is that it it mid term, and appears to be politically selective. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 7:37:26 PM | When a president fires an employee of the Federal government, who serves at his pleasure, the reason is ALWAYS political. Therefore, your assertion that politics had a role to play in the firings and that alone is somehow untoward and suspicious, is a non-sequiter.
As I stated in an earlier post, whether the firings occurred at the beginning, middle or end of a term is IRRELEVENT. So long as the dismissals were not an attempt to impede an investigation, this entire outcry over the fired idiots is much ado about nothing.
To Mustbeup2nogood, by the book means you are notified in writing and in person by human resources that there will be a vacancy in your office within 60 days and it would be in your best interest to find another position post-haste.
As far as the incompetent label, I direct you to research the matter of David Iglesias. As I stated in a prior post, Mr. Iglesias had the evidence that certain Democratic third party operatives had knowingly falsified voter registration records in New Mexico in order to receive commissions (they registered dead people to vote). That is clearly a Federal and State crime. Yes, a CRIME. What did Mr. Iglesias do with that information? Present evidence to a grand jury in order to get an Indictment?
No. He instead suggested the creation of a task force to further investigate the admissions of people who committed the crimes.
Not sure where you are from Mustbe, but in my neck of the woods, that's called being incompetent. | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 34 | |
| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 7:45:02 PM | I actually don't think this pres gives a damn about his reputation. Donald Trump is right...this is the worst president ever to have "served" his country. Doesn't matter anymore....wanna clear the air and have the GG swear an oath on his statements - screw it! Who cares anymore. Now the arrogance is gonna get worse and this freak doesn't like being told what to do so fromhereonout, we will see arrogance and evil at it's finest. I for one want to see a show-down....I want to see this president humiliated and **** slapped all the way to the bitter end. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 7:46:01 PM |
No. He instead suggested the creation of a task force to further investigate the admissions of people who committed the crimes.
Not sure where you are from Mustbe, but in my neck of the woods, that's called being incompetent. Most people would call it further investigation to insure that the full depth of the wrongdoing is known and all, even those presently hidden from view, are discovered with the full weight of all wrongdoing laid at their feet rather than just that which is currently suspected/known. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 7:55:27 PM |
When a president fires an employee of the Federal government, who serves at his pleasure, the reason is ALWAYS political. Therefore, your assertion that politics had a role to play in the firings and that alone is somehow untoward and suspicious, is a non-sequiter.
Rather than you know, having something to do with the competence of the prosecutor.
As far as I can tell Tort you have never found a republican cause you didn't like. It must have been difficult to defend the homosexual page harassment, but I'm sure you did it... | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 7:56:33 PM | Mungojoe, you bring up an interesting point that needs to be addressed with respect to Mr. Iglesias.
In our country, there is a Constitutional provision that in order to be tried for a crime, an individual must first be indicted by a Grand Jury (as opposed to the 'petite' (trial) jury that actually weighs the testimony and evidence presented according to the applicable rules of evidence, and makes a determination of fact), before a jury at trial determines whether the defendant at trial is guilty or not guilty.
Your post would be correct if the individuals Mr. Iglesias had investigated, (these individuals admitted to his office that they had indeed fabricated records -and remember, this is both a Federal and state crime) were at trial. Then indeed, there would be a thoughtful weighing by the jury of all relevant facts. However, in a grand jury, there is no "beyond a reasonable" standard. All that the grand jury need do is determine whether the facts presented more likely as not show that a crime was probably committed in order to return a True Bill (what an indictment is called).
Therefore, your post is premature in assuming that a grand jury determines the guilt or innocence of a defendant; it doesn't.
Charles, with regard to the homosexual page issue, I assume you mean Representative Foley? In that case, the page was over the age of 18, therefore an adult. The media knew full well that the page was NOT a minor child.
I am not a Republican; I am a follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may his Holy Noodles bless this forum), and will rant against Republicans who masquerade as Conservatives when in reality they are left-wing socialists (i.e. Rudy Guiliani; Mayor Bloomberg of NYC; Governor Terminator of California).
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 8:29:04 PM | Tort .. I haven't disagreed with you on Iglesias.. in fact .. if he had sidestepped his duty as a prosecuter .. he DESERVED to be terminated .. but you repeatedly bring his case up as the cover for these actions and IGNORE the six other lawyers who were terminated and intimate there was valid charge against them too .. That's NOT the case ... in fact .. they were Highly regarded professionals who had outsanding records and high conviction rates ...
Of the eight people fired .. only two had questionable records ... WHY were the others included in this mess? The stated reasons given by Gonzalez and the White House do not jibe with the (redacted) internal emails sent back and forth from Gonzalez and Karl Rove ...
BTW ... where I'm from it takes more than just one example of one "bad apple" to broadly paint everyone else as incompetent .. where I was raised .. you needed substantial proof of each persons record before you went forward with such consequences ... not so here ... in the majority of these cases lack of due diligence and tons political arrogance trampled on these peoples reputations ...
Again .. let's talk about the ENTIRE case .. not just the excpetion ... | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 8:44:32 PM | Therefore, your post is premature in assuming that a grand jury determines the guilt or innocence of a defendant; it doesn't. Unfortunately for your argument, I do know what an indictment (as used in the US) is and the purpose it serves.
I made no assumption of a grand jury determining guilt or innocence, either explicitly or implicitly, simply that the purpose of a task force in such matters is to insure that the 'net' is spread widely enough to uncover all (or as much as possible) wrongdoing by any and all persons involved prior to seeking indictments.
In other words, do the whole job at once rather than doing it piecemeal.
edit:
In our country, there is a Constitutional provision that in order to be tried for a crime, an individual must first be indicted by a Grand Jury Actually, that is not correct. In many US jurisdictions charges may be filed directly with the courts in the form of a 'complaint' (some jurisdictions use a slightly different term but it means the same thing) after which a judge will determine if there is probable cause to believe the crime was actually commited (by that person) in a preliminary hearing. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 8:56:13 PM | The job of the prosecutor in presenting evidence to a grand jury isn't to do the whole job; its to get an indictment. In some cases, a sitting grand jury hears evidence for months at a time; but generally those are organized crime investigations. In the majority of grand jury investigations, just enough evidence is presented to get a True Bill.
Mustbeup, once again I must remind you that as political appointees who serve at the President's pleasure, the President is under NO obligation to present a good reason (or any reason, for that matter) to you, me or the nation. If he decides he wants prosecutors who comb their hair on the left side and wear purple ties that is his prerogative.
Not sure why you and others on this board continue to labor under the assumption that the firing of prosecutors is somehow suspicious in and of itself. It isn't (unless, as I have stated on several occasions but nobody seems to have noticed, the firings were linked to an attempt at obstructing an ongoing investigation). | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 9:01:46 PM |
The job of the prosecutor in presenting evidence to a grand jury isn't to do the whole job; its to get an indictment. Unless the prosecutor wants to be as thorough as possible and go for "the whole enchilada". | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 9:06:53 PM | Mungojoe, I draw your attention to the United States Constitution, specifically the Fifth Amendment:
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Just as I pointed out some hints for your edification on another thread on how to properly research Case Law, I would direct you to thoroughly study the Constitution. The situation you present in your above example would apply generally to minor crimes (misdemeanors) or violations; BUT (and this is important) those are NOT the subject matter that would involve any of the prosecutors at the heart of this discussion; they get results by indictments and convictions; not avoiding them with task forces. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 9:19:14 PM | Mungojoe, I draw your attention to the United States Constitution, specifically the Fifth Amendment: Gee, I didn't know that falsifying voter registrations constituted a capital crime. Do they really hang people for that?
I guess then, that all those US jurisdictions that allow for charges to be filed directly with the courts to be heard in a preliminary hearing (even in felony cases) must be in violation of the Constitution. Maybe you should get right on that, it could be a real career maker for you (you might even get nominated to the Supreme Court for it).
Just as I pointed out some hints for your edification on another thread on how to properly research Case Law, I would direct you to thoroughly study the Constitution. Let's see... I trashed your arguments on the UCMJ and on the "times of war" issue. Right now I'm two-for-two. Are you ready to go for three? | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 9:25:07 PM | Mungo, you wrote:
"Gee, I didn't know that falsifying voter registrations constituted a capital crime. Do they really hang people for that?"
Once again, I imagine in your enthusiastic zeal to rebut what cannot be rebutted, you have overlooked the other part of the Amendment.
"...No person shall be held to answer for a capital, OR OTHERWISE INFAMOUS CRIME..."
Additionally, you wrote:
guess then, that all those US jurisdictions that allow for charges to be filed directly with the courts to be heard in a preliminary hearing (even in felony cases) must be in violation of the Constitution. Maybe you should get right on that, it could be a real career maker for you (you might even get nominated to the Supreme Court for it).
I will mention that the prosecutors in question investigate violations of FEDERAL LAW, therefore, they MUST seek indictments (just as in the other thread, you are going all over the place; stick to the issue. The discussion deals with prosecutors who investigate alleged violation of Federal laws, not local prosecutors who investigate alleged violation of state or local laws). Let me know if that point isn't clear enough for you.
As for your faulty scorekeeping, I invite you to revisit those posts and familiarize yourself once again with the proper method of researching case law (you missed quite a few precedents) and I will make myself available for any member here who wishes to avail themselves of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 10:02:31 PM | Sorry tort but, you're the one that made the point about the crimes Iglesias was investigating being a violation of state laws.
You are also the one that made the clearly sweeping statement that all criminal cases must proceed by Grand Jury as a matter of constitutional law (and that is not true, according to SCOTUS ruling).
If you can't be specific and exact in your arguments while making grand and arrogant statements about how you are more expert than anyone else don't be surprised if people call you on it. Backpedalling and trying to restrict arguments about points you brought up to avoid appearing wrong isn't going to get you out of it.
I still stand by my argument that striking a task force to investigate prior to proceeding to indictment is a perfectly valid way of proceeding and in no way inherently indicates incompetence.
And yes, I stand by my scorekeeping too. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 10:19:19 PM | Mungojoe, you just can't seem to get things right. In my prior post, I stated Federal AND state laws. As you should be aware (maybe not), Federal and State laws are often concurrent in many areas. Voting happens to be one of the subject matters where Federal and State laws are concurrent. Please get your quotes straight and study up on US laws and the Constitution.
In message 413 of the thread "Impeachment is Imperative...", I corrected five (5) errors you made in earlier posts. The most egregious one concerned a complete misunderstanding of Case law.
To refresh your memory, you wrote in message 412:
"Again, I point out that nothing in current US case law defines the use of military force as a "state of war", de facto or explicitly. The only clear reference is the power of Congress to "declare war". I'm sure you know as well as I that this is an untested area and that the authorization of force is not necessarily the same as a declaration of war."
Your assertion concerning US Case law was patently false. In my follow up (Msg 413) I pasted a list of US Supreme Court decisions that REJECT your assertion. I have yet to read a post where you counter my argument with US Supreme Court cases that AFFIRM your argument. I am still waiting. For your edification, the cases that reject what you wrote concerning your post are:
) Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763 (1950)
2) Fleming v. Page, 50 U.S. (9 How.) 603 (1850) (I know, I'm a sucker for the 'good old days')
3) Loving v. United States, 517 U.S. 748 (1996)
4) Maul v. United States, 274 U.S. 501 (1927)
5) Massachusetts v. Laird, 451 F.2d 26 (1st Cir. 1971)
6) Authority to Use United States Military Forces in Somalia, 16 Op. O.L.C. 6 (1992)
I invite you once again to read those cases (or summaries in the U.S. Reports) and reconsider your assertions regarding that topic.
You are entitled to your opinion with respect to the last statement in the prior post; however, such actions (regarding the task force) would be considered incompetent in that it is irrelevant to the purpose behind the grand jury function and may be viewed as possible obstruction of justice, in that matters before a grand jury are, by law, secret. If a prosecutor presents those facts, testimony or evidence before a task force, he is violating the law concerning grand jury secrecy.
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 10:24:04 PM | | I don't understand what the fuss is about. The DAGS fired were found to be incompetent. Any employer who finds you incompetent can fire you kester for poor job performance, which is exactly what Gonzales did in this case. These are political appointees. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 10:48:15 PM | You are entitled to your opinion with respect to the last statement in the prior post; however, such actions (regarding the task force) would be considered incompetent in that it is irrelevant to the purpose behind the grand jury function and may be viewed as possible obstruction of justice. The grand jury function only becomes relevant when the prosecuter has determined that he is ready to proceed to that point and that the investigation has, to his satisfaction, sufficiently uncovered the relevant criminal acts and actors. That is a determination that the prosecutor must make based on his determination of the depth and breadth of the criminal behaviour (i.e. has he uncovered all the actors/the most significant actors and/or all the acts/the most significant acts involved).
The prosecutor can certainly decide to proceed to indictment prior to that point if he feels that the threat of a true bill will encourage the known actors to reveal more, but that is his determination to make. However, the function of the grand jury is not one of "the big stick" and it would more likely be considered incompetent to proceed prematurely.
It is only obstruction if the prosecutor's intent was to subvert justice rather than to insure justice to the fullest extent.
To state that subversion was his intent without strong evidence would likely be slanderous and to do so in writing would likely be libelous.
I have yet to see you present anything that even remotely constitutes evidence that Iglesias' intent was anything other than a desire to be thorough in the service of justice.
To state the fact of his calling for a task force is evidence of incompetence rather than thoroughness is spurious as you have not established anything that amounts to evidence of intent. For all you know he may have had access to information that it went much deeper than was publicly apparent.
Everything else mentioned is completely off-topic and we've already established the track record around that.
ps: The correct form is "petit jury" not "petite jury". One is the masculine the other is the feminine. | |
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 11:06:49 PM | Mungojoe, stop writing fiction. You wrote:
"To state that subversion was his intent without strong evidence would likely be slanderous and to do so in writing would likely be libelous."
Since you found a rare typo on my part, let me point out that since any comments attributable to me on POF forums are in writing, your using the verbal element of defamation (slander) is curious, if not odd.
Please point out where I used the term 'subversive". You seem to be good at fiction writing.
Additionally, you wrote:
"I have yet to see you present anything that even remotely constitutes evidence that Iglesias' intent was anything other than a desire to be thorough in the service of justice. "
Do a google search and read the account of the third party operative hired by the New Mexico Democratic party. You will also read how certain individuals under investigation ADMITTED falsifying signatures in order to get paid commissions.
EARTH TO MUNGO; EARTH TO MUNGO. THE PARTIES UNDER INVESTIGATION ADMITTED THAT THEY FALSIFIED SIGNATURES. WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO INVESTIGATE?????
Mungo, what is it you don't understand? You fabricate case law to suit your argument and then you publish falsehoods concerning my writings. I would caution you to show more care in future postings where you make suggestions that are false.
Next, you wrote:
"The grand jury function only becomes relevant when the prosecuter [sic- ITS PROSECUTOR] has determined that he is ready to proceed to that point and that the investigation has, to his satisfaction, sufficiently uncovered the relevant criminal acts and actors. That is a determination that the prosecutor must make based on his determination of the depth and breadth of the criminal behaviour (i.e. has he uncovered all the actors/the most significant actors and/or all the acts/the most significant acts involved).
The prosecutor can certainly decide to proceed to indictment prior to that point if he feels that the threat of a true bill will encourage the known actors to reveal more, but that is his determination to make. However, the function of the grand jury is not one of "the big stick" and it would more likely be considered incompetent to proceed prematurely."
Let me make this simple and clear so most people can understand it.
Prosecutors don't indict. Prosecutors don't "... decide to proceed to indictment ..." Only a Grand Jury can bring an Indictment (True Bill). All a prosecutor can do is present the evidence and if a grand jury doesn't return an indictment, then he may dismiss that grand jury and impanel another one; keep doing so until he finds one that returns an indictment.
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| Federal Prosecuters fired Posted: 3/23/2007 11:36:50 PM |
Mungojoe, stop writing fiction. You wrote:
I did not state that you used the term "subversive". Neither did I state that you were engaging in any form of slander or libel.
Pay close attention to these words: "To state", not "You stated" and "would likely be", not "is"
That statement is what it is. How you determine that it has been attributed to you is curious, if not odd.
Do a google search and read the account of the third party operative hired by the New Mexico Democratic party. You will also read how certain individuals under investigation ADMITTED falsifiying signatures in order to get paid commisions. The admissions of guilt by some parties involved do not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they are the only parties involved. They certainly do not indicate the intent of the prosecutor in deciding to call for an investigative task force.
EARTH TO MUNGO; EARTH TO MUNGO. THE PARTIES UNDER INVESTIGATION ADMITTED THAT THEY FALSIFIED SIGNATURES. WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO INVESTIGATE????? You investigate to determine who else may be involved. People cover for their 'bosses' all the time.
You fabricate case law to suit your argument and then you publish falsehoods concerning my writings. What case law have I fabricated and where did I say you said something you didn't?
Prosecutors don't indict. Prosecutors don't "... decide to proceed to indictment ..." Only a Grand Jury can bring an Indictment (True Bill). All a prosecutor can do is present the evidence and if a grand jury doesn't return an indictment, then he may dismiss that grand jury and impanel another one; keep doing so until he finds one that returns an indictment. I did not say that the prosecutor indicts. I said the prosecutor decides to take the case before the grand jury for indictment (proceed to indictment). It is up to the grand jury to decide if the prosecutor has a potential case.
Are you suggesting that, if the prosecutor decides not to seek an indictment that the grand jury goes ahead and determines the merits of the case of it's own accord even without a prosecutor to seek the indictment?
you publish falsehoods concerning my writings. You may want to look for a good English language course to learn how to read for meaning.
I would caution you to show more care in future postings where you make suggestions that are false. You're soooo cute when you try to be threatening. | |
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