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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 7/23/2007 12:07:38 PM | Absolutely Ridiculous!!!!.....What are societies comming too????
Things like sodomy, incests, pedophilia, polygamy, adultary, fornications, lewdness(unrestrained sexual desires) and homosexuality (no offense to anyone who is homosexual)and all that other crap.... these things in my opinion just bring societies down in the long run....like it did with Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece and many others. These perverted acts/crimes/sins ....in my opinion are what bring nations down, and people start to value the human dignity and character less, and their lusts and desires more.
All those sexual perversions in my opinion are bringing a train wreck into our homes and communities and countries. Pornography is really becoming a disease that is bringing problems all around.
Whats really tragic in my opinion is that in many cases some people tolerate these types of things and say it's about "sexual freedom". All those offenses that I listed above I feel are really offenses against humanity itself also, and against families and individual people and mostly....against Almighty GOD. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 9/1/2007 3:07:43 PM | For someone to be involved in an incestuous relationship they would have to have a screw loose
I talked to someone who was involved sexually with his mom and no way would I see him after that | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 9/1/2007 3:50:20 PM |
These perverted acts/crimes/sins ....in my opinion are what bring nations down, and people start to value the human dignity and character less, and their lusts and desires more. Dead on! That is why it is prophesied that if we don't change these things our countries will be destroyed. Legalizing incest is just another way for evil men to rape their daughters and get by with it without punishment. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 9/1/2007 6:47:53 PM | Raveninns on 7/9/2007 3 42 PM
read that message, and thought, "Hey... a lot of people may think that!"
Hmm...from what I understand, Adam had a previous wife (Lilith) and they had many children. One night she woke all her daughters, and slaughtered all her sons. She took her children out to the wilderness, and it was there that the sons of Eve found them and took them to wife.
Anyways....close incest like that is just not good. If, genetically, there is a problem with a couple having children, they need to be informed of it...and then held financially responsible for their poor decision. Perhaps even encouraged to be sterilized.
I did see a card for a birthday that said something along the lines of "Happy Birthday Uncle Daddy!"
Sure...in America there is/was a certain amount of incest carried on. People were scarce, and it was a long way to try and find someone to start a family with. One did not want to go too far from home, fmaily ties being very strong, so the genetic pool was limited. Strangers were not well tolerated either, so not a lot of new blood was introduced. Today, there is much less of it reported. (Notice I said "reported") Doesn't mean it doesn't happen...sometimes by accident. How many families live from generation to generation in the inner city areas? Who knows whos child is fathered by whom? How many "half brothers and sisters" are dating, marrying, etc? Without knowing it, and the parents may well not know for sure either!
Ah well.... | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 9/1/2007 6:55:30 PM |
SO WHY NOW DO WE WANT TO BECOME POLITICALLY CORRECT AND ATTEMPT TO ACCEPT IT? One of the many reasons Islamic fundamentalists are disgusted by the "american / western " world. Re: certain topics...can't really blame them. { mind you, they must clean up the mess in their tents as well...however, it is reviled when found out and punished. Not up for debate for " acceptance"...}} | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 12/28/2007 1:16:06 PM | Personally and morally,both are wrong.And because "some" people are doing it??? Makes it right! Dang! What a mixed up world.I say ,"Give some love and counseling."We all have personal responsibility in protecting "ALL" of our childrens rights, emotional and physical health.I'm all for personal freedom,but with that comes personal responsibility.And as for the brother/ sister thing,they didnt know,but now they do.Give them help ,guidance to correct this.I dont think jail is the answer!And neither is marriage. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/27/2008 8:20:38 PM | Is this even a serious post? Incest was made a crime for a number of reasons...moral as well as practical. Of all the sex taboos (w/ of course the exceptions of pedophilia and bestiality) this is one that would cause the most societal harm if it were legalized. There are biological reasons that siblings or parent/sibling combinations are to be avoided and since people have shown little in the way of self-restraint regarding this issue,for the sake of a cohesive society these acts have to be proscribed.
While I'm very liberal about most things,I cannot see how legalize this would serve any useful purpose. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 2:20:46 AM | | The family law in Australia bans people from contracting marriages involving very close relatives (i.e. to an uncle or aunt, mother or father, brother and sister). While perhaps not so many people would argue these sorts of relationships are wrong on purely religious grounds anymore, I think the fact that they are prohibited by most societies and cultures in the world (with some exceptions) combined with their dubious genetic outcomes (offspring from incestuous relationships are more prone to inherited genetic illnesses) are enough to keep the law as it is. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 3:32:52 PM | geneseo posted..
So again, using your arugment about birth defects, I pose the question. Why do we not imprision those selfish mothers who have a disposition for having retarded children, or ones with other birth defects. After the second child is born handicapped shouldn't we say enough is enough, and perhaps force her to have abortions in the future or sterilize her? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is a "huge" difference in knowing there is a probability of a child/children born with birth defects due to incest..and not having any predisposition..or prior knowledge of having a child/children with birth defects to those not participating in this act. This is a cause and consequence issue. I think it's just as callous/impractical/disrespectful..and mostly irresponsible to constantly have a "live and let live" cavalier attitude. We all have/should have responsibilities to ourselves and each other. Laws are/should be imposed as a guideline of those responsibilities..not as a sign of disrespect for those who think total freedom (chaos) rules supreme..and anyone that imposes a serious law in respect of those unable to fend for themselves (children born of incest with birth defects) as some form of tyranny. JMO  | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 3:57:55 PM | How much morality do we need to enforce and how much to be let out the window? Bisexuality? Lesbians? Gays? <--- NOT THE SAME F***ING FAMILY!! I come from a religion that allows first cousins to marry. I do not condone it. I don't believe in sex before marriage because of the CONSEQUENCES. If the world over adapts a "consequences be damned" opinion/norm then what next? WHAT NEXT? We are condemning ourselves to an inevitible destruction... What is wrong with the world- what has happened to right and wrong, up and down, LEFT AND RIGHT? Has gravity completely left us floating on the last edges of reason, we are but one floating idea away from tumbling down the shit hole this world is becoming. What is wrong with us? So because same sex is ok, same family has become alright? So because same sex is alright now murdering your neighbor is too? What the F* CK? this make sense to anyone cause I am officially lost...
So consequences be damned...
Let all the people run free- the man/woman who wants to walk down the street naked can do it, children have already seen that on T.V. The man/woman who wants to screw around with little children, hell newborns cmon its alright now! If you want to set an orphanage on fire because all those **stard children are abominations, well shit DO IT!
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 3:59:39 PM | Knowing there is a predisposition for a birth defect..most parents are responsible in taking care of birth control on their own accord. Not many parents continue to have children with birth defects when there is a known genetic or hereditary disorder involved..and most are guided by actively responsible doctors in not continuing that genetic line. There is a responsibility instilled in these parents without having to have laws imposed. The same can not be said for incest..where the possible is a probable for birth defects "before" having "any" and all children. IMO  | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 10:31:09 PM | I swear, when I first started reading this thread and the article in the Original Post, I was feeling the "ick" factor, and wrong! wrong! wrong! big time! I immediately thought of the potential for birth defects, as so many others here mention. Being the obsessive sort that I am I read every one of the posts here - and got a good many chuckles out of some! I continued on to Google for some more info, since some of the "live and let live" attitudes here troubled me but made me wonder. I came across this Encyclopedia of Marriage and Family site from which I've copied one article. Fascinating! I will try to go back and copy the link info to edit-in here so you all can visit and check out the multiple pages of brief scholarly articles related to incest and incest-taboo.
Note that these are two different topics, "incest" and "incest taboo." "Incest" involves a victimized child whereas "incest taboo" is about societal norms regarding marriage . After lots of reading and thinking I've come down on the side of "live and let live" regarding sexual behavior between two consenting adults. As one impressive young poster here said[see msg 145 - puf the magic dragon], the best we can do is educate people regarding potential consequences of their behavior.
I believe now that this German sibling marriage shouldn't be prosecuted as criminal, the husband/brother/father should not be imprisoned, and the law should be changed. But I also certainly believe that our modern western "incest taboo" will continue to serve as powerful deterrent to sibling marriage.
Sibling Marriage and Human Isolates
There are several reliable examples of human communities where incest and/or close inbreeding have occurred on a regular and systematic basis. These examples include not only the well known cases of royal family incest but also incestuous practices among commoners. This social class distinction is important to note because human sociobiologists have dismissed the many instances of royal incest as exceptional and of no consequence to the debate. Cases involving commoners, where sibling or other incestuous marriages are usual and systematic, strongly challenge sociobiological suggestions that a selection mechanism exists to prevent inbreeding.
One of the more conspicuous examples of incestuous marriage involves the Roman Egyptians of the first three centuries C.E. A great deal of documentary evidence with genealogical information (mostly census records, but also personal letters, marriage contracts and other types of contracts, petitions, and documents addressed to the administrative authorities) has been unearthed and reveals that Egyptian commoners frequently practiced full brother-sister marriage (Scheidel 1996; Middleton 1962). Russel Middleton argues that there is little uncertainty in these documents. "Unlike some of the earlier types of evidence which may be subject to differing interpretations, these documents of a technical character have an 'indisputable precision'" (1962, p. 606).
It is evident that full sibling marriages accounted for 15 to 21 percent of all unions. When considering how many sibling marriages were demographically possible and socially acceptable (i.e., some families would not have children with siblings of the opposite sex that survived to marriageable age; or have children with opposite sexed siblings; or have children with siblings with the customary age differences—Egyptian marriages conventionally occurred between an older man and younger woman), we find that almost all possible brother-sister marriages were, in fact, contracted. This strongly suggests that sibling marriages were not only common but the preferred norm.
The documents also demonstrate that sibling marriages sometimes continued through two and three generations, and that the overwhelming majority of brother-sister marriages produced children. This practice lasted for at least three centuries and ended only when the Romans discouraged the custom by withholding Roman citizenship from persons continuing the practice.
Another example of a brother-sister incest custom is presented by Edward E. Evans-Pritchard when writing about the African Azande. "[W]hen a boy reaches puberty he may take his sister and with her build their little hut near his mother's home and go into it with his sister and lay her down and get on top of her—and they copulate" (1974, p. 107). Middleton (1962, p. 603) also notes that Azande kings married their daughters and that father-daughter incest was common among the Thonga.
Among the Greeks, Keith Hopkins notes that "[t]he Athenians allowed marriage between half-siblings of the same father but different mothers; the Spartans allowed marriage between half-siblings of the same mother and different fathers" (1980, p. 311). The ancient Hebrews permitted a similar practice as noted in the Old Testament by Abraham's marriage to his half-sister Sara.
John M. Goggin and William C. Sturtevant (1964) list eight other societies that allowed sibling marriage among commoners as well as thirty-five societies that allow sibling marriage between persons of high status.
In addition to cases of sibling marriage, there is abundant evidence of close inbreeding provided by human isolates—small isolated communities where the degree of inbreeding is determined by the size, extent, and length of isolation of the population (Leavitt 1990). These small isolated communities were numerous in the past and represent the norm for preagricultural Paleolithic societies.
A well-documented illustration of a human isolate is the Samaritans of the Middle East. From about 200 B.C.E., when the Samaritans broke completely from Jewish society, until the twentieth century, the Samaritan population declined dramatically (largely due to persecution by more powerful neighbors). At the end of World War II, the Samaritan population numbered 146 individuals, and this population had remained relatively stable for 100 years. By the 1980s, however, the population had increased and the Samaritans consisted of two communities of about 250 individuals (Bonne-Tamir 1980; Jamieson 1982; Talmon 1977).
Inbreeding in the Samaritan communities has been intense, not only because of their small population, but because of three other well established customs. First, Samaritan religion prohibits marriage with individuals outside of their faith. Second, the Samaritans limit their marriages to extended family lineages. Third, they prefer cousin marriage. Batsheva Bonne-Tamir (1980) has observed that nearly 85 percent of all Samaritan marriages are between first and second cousins. However, over a long period of time, the Samaritans have revealed neither a higher rate of genetic disease nor lower fertility than other populations. EDIT: for more info - http://family.jrank.org/pages/856/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos-Sociocultural-Factors-in-Development-Incest-Regulations.html | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 10:43:29 PM | ^^^^^^ I have serious doubts about the validity of the above study. W/o genetic diversity,how would it be possible for genetic defects NOT to become more prominent? That was obvious to even primitive man and it was one of the primary reasons that isolated cultures contacted outside groups. I'd have to see more data from another sources that has reviewed this data for accuracy. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 10:50:08 PM | From Wikipedia
One of the biggest problems facing the community today is the issue of continuity. With such a small population, divided into only four families (Cohen, Tsedakah, Danfi and Marhib; a fifth family died out in the last century) and a general refusal to accept converts, there has been a history of genetic disease within the group due to the small gene pool. To counter this, the Samaritan community has recently agreed that men from the community may marry non-Samaritan (primarily, Israeli Jewish) women, provided that the women agree to follow Samaritan religious practices. This often poses a problem for the women, who are typically less than eager to adopt the strict interpretation of Biblical (Levitical) laws regarding menstruation, by which they must live in a separate dwelling during their periods and after childbirth. Nevertheless, there have been a few instances of intermarriage. In addition, all marriages within the Samaritan community are first approved by a geneticist at Tel HaShomer Hospital, in order to prevent the spread of genetic disease.
Sooo..it's obvious that incest would provide exceedingly few benefit and a great number of risks. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 10:55:31 PM | ^^^ As I said, Cocytus, visit the Marriage and Family site yourself. The articles are thoroughly referenced. The case is made for arranged marriage to a spouse from outside one's own clan in order to make alliances with outside groups - which better insured the clan's survival in times of trouble. Fascinating stuff! Also, if you visit Wikipedia and look up "incest taboo" you'll see they can't even agree to put together a coherent neutral article on the topic. I think I entered the terms "anthropology, incest, taboo" initially.
As I said, I was surprised and I changed my mind on this topic, even though it still feels awful creepy!!! 
-------------- (your second post came in before I got this one up there.) -------------- I recommend to you the articles about development of the incest taboo over millenia of human societal development. Also, one article mentions Mendelian genetic study and how inbreeding can actually cause "washing out" of recessive harmful genetic traits. Can't say I fully grasp the concept, and I personally don't recommend sibling marriage, but the genetic case is made. This "benefit" is also mentioned on Wikipedia, I remember. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 10:58:31 PM | I don't know..if that's the case...maybe we shouldn't allow anyone to have children, because at any point in time, anyone of us might have a defective gene that could cause our children to have all sorts of physical or mental disabilities.
In fact, anyone who has any propensity toward carrying a defective gene, should be toasted in a gas tank, like so many of the jewish people were, when Hitler tried to kill all of them so he could make a superior race. Hmm...have we all become so critical of others that we can't see what we're really saying?
I don't know about anyone else, but last I read, we attempted freedom to live the way we wanted and avoid having our heads chopped off, just because we wanted to do so, and we avoided the finger wagging and name calling, by queens and kings alike, when we tossed the tea into the water, during the Boston tea party. Or...at least, that's what I thought??? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe two consenting adults that care and love each other should not populate the Earth...even if they were called Adam and Eve. I wonder how the Earth became populated if we didn't interbreed...at least, if you believe in the bible.
Ok, let's not stand on bible study alone...but, um..our distant ancestors...the apes, well, you might wish to tell them it wasn't nice to populate the earth by messing with the other females in the family, either. However, I suspect they might have disagreed at that time. Otherwise, how could they possibly stay alive with all the dangers that were out there. They had to travel in groups and the strongest male always had his pick of female, and several females at that, and since they always stayed within the family unit...well, we wouldn't be here if they hadn't.
And, let's not leave love out of this, ok? I mean...none of us should ever look for love...especially if we didn't know each other. Dang...honey, I didn't know your mother's name was my mother's name, lol. Your sister is whom? Wow, we sure have a lot of things in common. Oh by the way, I'm pregnant...isn't that great? Your last name is my last name, after all. Mom, he's what? My brother?? NOOOOO!!! OMG. Well, what's done is done, right? Might as well love our kids and be the parents we should be. No...you're going to jail. Take the kids! But, but, all I did was love my kids and wife.
In other words, maybe we should consider that if the people didn't procreate, regardless of familial backgrounds..our earth would not be what it is today, and no one would be here to discuss it. ;)
Just something you might wish to ponder. | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 1/28/2008 11:27:34 PM | | my ex brother in law paul would be happy. waht do you think, pat? | |
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| Legalizing incest.... Posted: 10/25/2008 7:07:40 PM | | Actually 50% is an incorrect number for deformities due to inbreeding. The number is closer to only 2% higher risk than a socially acceptable mating. | |
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