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Posted: 3/22/2007 10:31:00 AM | I need to add an addendum onto the sub-discussion concerning rape-play for victims of past abuse.
I was having this discussion with a friend of mine, who is professional councler persuing her graduate studies in psycology, and it has been pointed out that I may be clumping together some nearly PTSD responses and proper PTSD.
It is her belief, and I'm not in a position to disagree (in addition to her better credentials, my experience is with women who had conditions similar to what was described to me as PTSD, but not as severe; her's is far broader), that someone who has actual PTSD should probably not engage in force-play that might trigger a response. She agrees with me on the position in general (that rape play for some rape victims will cause harm, for some will help, and for some will do neither), but is accutely concerned over rape victims with full-blown PTSD.
Of course, in the end, this only reenforces my direct advice "seek a professional and get an opinion tailored to you". | |
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Posted: 3/25/2007 12:34:18 AM | This exchange ceased to be respectful and worthy of reading quite some time ago. Any bdsm practioner can tell that grey/green honestly believes he has greater bdsm knowledge than is the case. It appears that grey/green's problem is contagious - for Tampa is now displaying the same symptoms except they are directed at statistics, clinical psychology and research.....
I don't intend to offend either of you, however recent posts have failed to be inclusive and informative. Would you consider moving your exchange to email and one up each other privately, not least because with such extensive posts, if there is anything truly helpful (as opposed to inflammatory)it will be almost impossible to find.
best,
Eternelle | |
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Posted: 3/25/2007 12:59:29 AM | There are some excellent research studies available in which some of the questions raised in this thread are answered.
The research studies quoted here are published in peer-reviewed journals, have followed American Psychological Assoc rules re: ethics, informed consent etc. The studies included bdsm practioners and non-bdsm participants for comparison. Statistical analyses are sound and for those who are interested, the raw data could probably be obtained from the researchers to confirm the findings...
Just to make it clear - the results posted here are not my opinion, nor the opinions of the authors, they are the result of stringent, ethical and empirical research studies. There are quite a few studies available if one cares to look.
Understanding Sadomasochism: An Empirical Examination of Four Perspectives
Patricia A. Cross, PhD Kim Matheson, PhD
Carleton University
Are bdsmers nutters?
we could not find support for the psychoanalytic contentions
that masochists are guilt-ridden when it comes to sex or that sadists are
id-driven or exhibited psychopathy
Are masochists crazy and mentally disturbed and are sadists nasty psychos?
masochists were not found to be more prone to psychological distress or mental instability than the other group (the non bdsmers). In sum, we could not find support for the psychopathology/medical-model contention that sadists are antisocial or psychopathic and that masochists suffer from some sort of mental disorder.
Are sadists sexist anti-female "keep em barefoot and pregnant" pigs
No evidence was found suggesting that sadomasochists
espoused anti-feminist beliefs or traditional gender roles to a greater extent
than the non-sadomasochists sampled. We were unable to find support
for the radical feminist contention that SM reflects anti-feminist
beliefs
Are masochists just avoiding life or losers in general ?
Masochists are not inclined to engage in escapist behaviors such as drug-taking, day-dreaming,
or fantasizing than any of the other groups. Nor were they more
likely to have internal loci of control. They were, however, more likely
than sadists and non-sadomasochists to be employed.
From the discussion section in the paper
The sample of sadomasochists reported being more sexually active,
with a wider range of sexual activities in their repertoire, and a broader
range of partners. Perhaps, then, those who engage in SM tend to be
people who engage in a variety of sexual activities. One might speculate
that sadomasochists could be understood as sexual gourmets with diverse
and sophisticated tastes. These findings suggest that sadomasochism
may simply be a form of sex play, providing those individuals with
a sufficiently adventurous attitude towards sex with the experience of
intense and intimate encounters. Further, rather than pain, bondage,
and humiliation being at the core of the SMexperience, Califia (1980)
suggests that these behaviors are better understood as tools to assist in
the mutual creation of differential status. That is, power may be the core
phenomenon; the exchange of power in an erotic context may become,
for some, a vehicle for the experience of sexual pleasure. While genuine
rape, torture, and humiliation are crimes against humanity, the consensual
simulation of such acts may represent an opportunity to play with
the icons of power and authority for purposes of exploring and developing
erotic fantasies.
REVIEW
Demographics, sexual behaviour,
family background and abuse
experiences of practitioners of
sadomasochistic sex: a review of
recent research
The respondents were highly educated (over a third had a university degree). They
also had a higher income level than the population in general (Statistical Yearbook
of Finland, 1993)
(Sandnabba et al., 1999). This study group, as with many others previously explored
(Weinberg, 1987; Spengler, 1977; Baumeister, 1988), is suggestive that bdsm practitioners are not psychologically disturbed or dysfunctional but are, rather, better
educated and are in a generally higher earning bracket than the general population.
sadomasochistic behaviour is at least partly a product
of adult socialization processes, where real or imagined sexual contact leads the
respondents to adopt new behaviours and sexual scripts. This .fi nding accords well
with social constructionistic explanations of sexual behaviour (Weinberg, 1987;
Weinberg et al., 1984) | |
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Posted: 3/25/2007 5:42:37 AM | as u have never tried it u dont understand it. As a person who is always in relationships where im the one who has to control everything as generally the men dont know how 2. it is nice at times to b in a position where u dont have to think about anything. everything u do, u r told to do.
i havent been raped,i had a great childhood and am not in2 self mutilation.
Call me a freak but i dont think the whole thing is that bad | |
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OHM
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Joined: 11/27/2006
Msg: 105 | |
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Posted: 3/25/2007 11:22:55 AM | Eternalle: Yes, I have heard this all before...that those into BDSM really are just more intelligent than the rest. Many are highly educated.
I have been propositioned by all sorts in highly regarded professions. But, I still fail to see the relationship between intelligence and BDSM. I think there are deviants from all walks of life. It doesn't make you any more or less intelligent.
Bottom line is I do not think it is not healthy. There is a lot of talk to glamorize it and make it sexy and appealing. You know...I am always weary of people that quote studies and read off statistics. More often then not it is bulls^%t. I am surprised not everyone knows this.
Alot of these people are looking for easy victims. | |
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Posted: 3/25/2007 10:59:01 PM | I had to comment on what I just read from sammygirly. I am a guy who had a relationship for many years with a woman who allowed me to experment with the world on BDSM. It was not at all a bad experance. I told her that she was in total control, when it was her turn and I was in total control when It was reversed. It was the biggest and best time I ever spent. | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 1:43:13 AM | Eternelle:
This exchange ceased to be respectful and worthy of reading quite some time ago.
Then why, oh why, did you insist on dredging this out of the septic tank of threads past?
I for one have tired of listening to sadists/masochists insist there's nothing wrong with anything they do and grasp at justifications.
Just one more quick run-through of the definitions:
Bondage (That'd be the 'B' in BDSM.}= silk scarves to leather, handcuffs, mere restrainment.
Again, not for me, can't see too much wrong with it.
d/S (Presumably the DS in BDSM) = domination/Submission
I'm inclined to view this dubiously. People who seek and/or get off on controlling others or being controlled might want to do some self-evaluating in my humble opinion.
Sadism, Masochism (presumably the SM, yet it's not BDSSM, is it? Funny how it gets sort of blended in, innit?) = Sadism: taking pleasure in someone else's pain. Masochism: taking pleasure in one's own pain.
Self-explanatory in it's wrongness so far as I am concerned, particularly when said pain is emotional as well as physical, such as with humilation.
Yes, yes, in it's mildest forms not much seems terribly wrong, and in fact probably occurs unintentionally to varying degrees. I'm not bothered by that so much, though I feel those seeing it happen would do well to see what problems might need fixing. However, the moment someone gets conditioned into thinking that they are merely a toy/slave for the gratification of some pathetic psychological predator of a 'master' or 'mistress' and deserve mistreatment... Something very horrible has happened.
Indeed, conditioning someone to that end strikes me as rather foul in and of itself whatever the excuse.
Now, I'll once again leave Eternelle and, I just bet, JerryinTampa to flog this putrifying beast for now. Well, provided of course niether of them does something as daft as to try selling domination/submission or sadomasochism as therapy, again.
In closing, this is of course my humble opinion, as these other statements are the opinions of their authors, and each are as deserving of existing. It is, as ever, the domain of the reader to determine for themselves who's got the right or wrong of it.
That said, how much longer does this truly need to go on? Just until enough of the sadomasochists post one after another that at least one page is naught but back-patting? Is there a quota to be met? | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 3:22:19 PM |
Then why, oh why, did you insist on dredging this out of the septic tank of threads past? On this you and I agree completely. More perplexing still is that they said nothing at all on-topic in that post... nor did they support their actual accusation.
d/S (Presumably the DS in BDSM) = domination/Submission Though it's tempting to point on how little experience one must actually have to make the mistake you've just made (in light of your appealing to your own expertise), the short answer is "no".
The "DS" in BDSM refer to "discipline" and "sadism" respectively.
I'm inclined to view this dubiously. People who seek and/or get off on controlling others or being controlled might want to do some self-evaluating in my humble opinion. As pointed out far earlier, that represents the majority of the world.
It's interesting to note that in many cultures, D/s as a named thing essentially doesn't exist. What D/s people do is widely considered "normal".
Self-explanatory in it's wrongness so far as I am concerned, particularly when said pain is emotional as well as physical, such as with humilation. It's not self-explanitory, and your lack of knowledge as to even the language of the lifestyle pretty clearly establishes your lack of credentials to appeal to.
Indeed, conditioning someone to that end strikes me as rather foul in and of itself whatever the excuse. Generally speaking, masochists are not conditioned into their enjoyment of pain.
That said, how much longer does this truly need to go on? Just until enough of the sadomasochists post one after another that at least one page is naught but back-patting? Is there a quota to be met? Want me to go back a few pages and cite the mutual admeration soscity of you and a few other posters (at least some interestingly with barren profiles and no posting history outside this thread... odd) | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 3:40:50 PM | I wonder how many people who are boasting about their experiences here are telling the truth. More like they are trying to sound freaky and cool.
Got a news flash for you, nice is the new cool, and if you need pain to enjoy sex you are one sick puppy. | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 4:36:19 PM | Got a news flash for you, nice is the new cool, and if you need pain to enjoy sex you are one sick puppy.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion ~ but I staunchly disagree and am rather offended when anyone insinuates that those who choose Bondage, S/M, D/s, or M/s are sick, twisted, perverted or otherwise damaged in some sense. It's really quite simple: just because one person deems it unacceptable in their own personal relationship ~ doesn't mean others are sick because they happen to enjoy aspects of a sexual experience that you may not understand or wish to try yourself.
NO ONE in this particular thread should be rendering advise to others, unless it is generic advice about research sites, BDSM informational sites and or to flatly state: "If you have been abused, in any form ~ please seek counseling prior to experimenting in such venues." PERIOD.
Rape role play, Sadists/masochists, and a few of the more unusual venues associated with BDSM (breath play, electro, blood, etc.) are areas that require much knowledge, a great deal of trust and participants who are very well aware of the risks, rules and limits of each person involved. (If anyone ever tells you (as a newbie) that submission means you have NO say on limits ~ tell them to go to hell, because that simply is NOT true, nor is it an opinion shared by most Doms/Dommes, whether professional or just a routine lifestyler.)
Being a former lifestyler, and a mentor for newbies for a period of years taught me one thing: never assume that what you are reading in a public forum is accurate, all-knowing or even reliable. Ultimately ~ BDSM is a very personal choice ~ and a very private choice for the person(s) involved. There are information, mentoring, educational and no-bias forums which can be found simply by googling. JMO  | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 5:43:44 PM | JerryInTampa: you are getting really paranoid here - LMAO - I think its downright sad that you think I am GGB.
I am neither for or against BDSM . I was just raising the question of consent - that in some circumstances, just because a person gives consent does not mean s/he really knows what they are doing to themselves. Is it consent if someone consents to hurting himself or herself ? There is potential harm here , in certain types of role playing /edge play eg. That's all. Just something to think about - instead of just saying BDSM practices are all good. | |
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Posted: 3/26/2007 8:13:51 PM | Is it consent if someone consents to hurting himself or herself ? You mean like a boxer or someone who runs with the bulls (OK, perhaps they *should* get their heads examined ;) ), or anyone who'se ever voulenteered to be tazed "to see what it was like", or anyone who runs (that hurts after a bit) especially if they are aafter a runner's high (a good feeling that comes after the pain), ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
And under no circumstances should we discuss people who have their hip disassembled and reassembeled because they like they way they feel with the replaced hip more than with the natural one.
There is potential harm here , in certain types of role playing /edge play eg. That's all. Just something to think about - instead of just saying BDSM practices are all good. Never said all pratices were good... and they sure as hell aren't good for all people.
And for almost everything, at the end of the day, that's the real issue. Almost nothing is "good" or "bad" in and of itself. It's the effect that it has on the people involved that make an action have such traits. | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 4:20:48 PM | I would not attempt to "sell" sm to anyone. I do try to sell the concepts of an informed opinion and exercising critical thinking. Re: are your opinions based on knee jerk reactions, popular media representations, slightly left of mainstream literature (i.e., Rice's Beauty Trilogy), online experience, real life experience, know a friend whose mother's sister's aunts best friend does it, research based knowledge (i.e., human sexuality researcher), "respected" long standing SM publications (i.e., Janus, Switch) etc....
Only the posters themselves know where there knowledge is from, but there are some sources which are superior to others. Again, assuming you have taken a perspective, have you tested it by seeking out disconfirming evidence, or have you only sought confirmatory evidence. Have you tried suspending your viewpoint long enough to accept that there are alternative perspectives that may well have points as valid as your own. Have you considered that (as is the case with most of human nature) SM is not black/white, right/wrong, but maps onto a range of behaviour with many many shades of grey inbetween.
Just as an aside - because research is my thing....For those who are into being informed about empirical results... There is a dearth of research on this topic, in part because it is so controversial (among academics as well as on POF), However, there is an excellent set of research studies published by different researchers. An entire journal issue was devoted to the topic. It's well worth reading, some of the chapters are not too academically dry either....btw - the title of the journal might be misleading to some, the topic of sm is addressed from a pansexual perspective, not solely homosexual. And - it's current!!!!
I have listed the Journal title below and the chapter titles. You will probably need access to an academic library to obtain the journal online. However, if anyone is particularly interested in reading a certain chapter, but cannot access it. I could prolly send it to you.
(Not that I expect many ppl to ask that - after all, reading something that might ring ones cognitive dissonance bell is only for the brave)
The Journal of Homosexuality
Vol 50, Issue 2/3 2006
Available online at http://www.haworthpress.com/web/JH
2006 by The Haworth Press
Introduction
The State of Our Knowledge on SM
Sadomasochism and the Social Sciences
A Review of the Sociological and Social Psychological Literature
Differences and Similarities Between Gay and Straight Individuals Involved in the Sadomasochistic Subculture
Sexual Spanking, the Self, and the Construction of Deviance
24/7 SM Slavery
Mainstreaming Kink
The Politics of BDSM Representation in U.S. Popular Media
Understanding Sadomasochism
An Empirical Examination of Four Perspectives
The Spanner Trials and the Changing Law on Sadomasochism in the UK
Negotiating Limits
The Legal Status of S/M in the United States
Discrimination of SM-Identified Individuals
S/M (Sadomasochistic) Interests as an Issue in a Child Custody Proceeding
The ICD Diagnoses of Fetishism and Sadomasochism
SM International
Psychotherapeutic Issues with "Kinky" Clients
Clinical Problems, Yours and Theirs
Investigating Bias in Psychotherapy with BDSM Clients
Learning from Extraordinary Lovers
Lessons from the Edge | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 4:31:55 PM | Eternelle: I can't access the Journal, but did try to go on the site you suggested. If you have these two chapters (listed below), I would be very interested in reading them, especially the latter one. Also, any articles you can direct me to in understanding SM from the point of view of the Sadist, that would be very interesting to me.
Sexual Spanking, the Self, and the Construction of Deviance
Understanding Sadomasochism
An Empirical Examination of Four Perspectives | |
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| BDSM to heighten the experience
Posted: 3/29/2007 5:03:28 PM |
sadomasochistic behaviour is at least partly a product
of adult socialization processes, where real or imagined sexual contact leads the
respondents to adopt new behaviours and sexual scripts. This .fi nding accords well
with social constructionistic explanations of sexual behaviour (Weinberg, 1987;
Weinberg et al., 1984)
i think that above quote illustrates a juvenile method rather than an adult social schema. and, if the focus of s/m experience/behavior a socialization process, one would think that a less private and personal behavior would have more immediate and "genuine" results. My premise, regarding meeting the need for a specific change in script and behavior as it affects one in the social sphere and ,thus, to re-socialize one's role, is that it's a psychologically neurotic method of temporarily assuaging one's malaise. A perhaps cliched but illustrative example is the high-powered male executive turning himself into a grovelling slave for an indulging (and sometimes wellpaid) femdom. Of course, when the session is over, the exec goes back to his public persona of domination and hierchical power. His session with his femdom did no lasting change. In fact, it enabled him to continue to function in his power role.
if, however, the s/m experience rests purely in the physiology of sensation, its expression cannot be assailed anymore than the preference for a particular flavor of ice cream other than vanilla. | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 5:03:42 PM | Hi Mimi,
I thought the link might not be readily accessible - I am accessing it through my university library.
I have downloaded the articles and just sent an email to your POF inbox with my email addy. Send me yours and I can forward the articles to you.
Regarding the Sadist's POV....I will have a look for something, but there are probably as many POV's as there are Sadists.
Just as a clarification, and I think that this might be the cause of some of the disagreements in this thread...There are Sadists (who gain sexual pleasure from someone else's pain) and Sexual (bdsm world) Sadists (who gain sexual pleasure from doing the things that appear painful to non-masochists, but give the sexual masochist pleasure)
hmmm...Paul Bernardo - possible sadist (I say possible cos I haven't tested him) one messed up weirdo...If this is the type of person that ppl in this thread are associating with the bdsm lifestyle, then all becomes clear as to the sick, unhealthy nasty perspective....however, this type is not the type of individual largely found in the bdsm lifestyle
best,
E | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 5:18:16 PM | I don't think that Weinberg intended "socialization process" in the context that you are responding to. Rather, the socialization process encompasses any interaction with human thinking, perspectives etc. Including literature, or physical contact.....
Thus - if an individual reads a text/watches a movie/ listens to a conversation in which a sexual concept that was previously alien is introduced, some may incorporate the new idea into their sexual scripts.
According to the social constructionistism - we learn all our behaviours through socialization processes - i.e., a table is only a table when someone has showed you it is a table........
The purpose of most SM play, is that it is 'play' it is not intended to be real/permanent.
E | |
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| BDSM to heighten the experience
Posted: 3/29/2007 6:33:51 PM |
Just as a clarification, and I think that this might be the cause of some of the disagreements in this thread...There are Sadists (who gain sexual pleasure from someone else's pain) and Sexual (bdsm world) Sadists (who gain sexual pleasure from doing the things that appear painful to non-masochists, but give the sexual masochist pleasure) I've assumed this conversation was over people who enjoy hurting people who enjoy being hurt... not people who kick puppies. :) | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 6:50:21 PM | Hey Jerry,
''I've assumed this conversation was over people who enjoy hurting people who enjoy being hurt... not people who kick puppies. :)'"
LOL - I asssumed the same - but looking back on the posts that refer to "looking for victims" "sick""unhealthy" etc - they make sense if the sadist referred to is the type of sadist who forces his/herself on unwilling victims. You and I have been reading the posts with the word Sadist referring to the typical sm lifestyler. It is possible that the vanilla world does not/cannot see a difference between the two. However, there is a huge difference between them.
Just a thought....
E | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 7:49:48 PM | yes, I understand there is a difference between "playing" at being a sadist in BDSM and being a sadist as part of one's identity etc. etc
but I still would be curious to understand what the possible personality traits and psychological background of someone who would be attracted to being a sadist.
Why is it, for example, sexually arousing to hurt someone phsyically , -- even 'playing' at it , you still actually physically hurt your partner , eg. from whipping & caning, to more extreme pain - there is a range , I understand. (and I understand the whole thing with the consent etc.). But why is it sexually exciting to be the one to inflict pain on another person ? That is the part that I cannot understand. Can someone explain this to me ? Is it the power thing ? | |
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| BDSM to heighten the experience
Posted: 3/29/2007 7:51:48 PM | eternelle, i hope you don't mind my skipping the enormity of which we agree.
The purpose of most SM play, is that it is 'play' it is not intended to be real/permanent.
but i have trouble with this one. coming from (geez, what perspective am i coming from?) a human sexuality perspective, it would seem that there is but one intention for s/m activities: a heightened sexual response. i am guessing that to this degree, that makes it quite real and genuine.
i have acquieced in facilitating my lovers' experience of masochistic and sadistic activities because it has brought them greater sexual excitement and more intense orgasms.
and i have enjoyed these experiences myself for the same reason.
unfortunately, i have had numerous relationships fail when these activities were required to do more than just that. | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 8:01:50 PM | But why is it sexually exciting to be the one to inflict pain on another person ? That is the part that I cannot understand. Can someone explain this to me ? Is it the power thing ?
assuming that you're curious about a consensual s/m relationship, the enigma that you are imagining is not pain in the context in which it is being practiced. it is a carefully performed sensory exploration taking place on the outerlimits of nerve receptivity.
what goes on, when done properly, is not pain in the strictest sense of the word. it is in fact, pleasure.
as with other sexual acts, some find more pleasure in giving, receiving, or doing both. | |
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Posted: 3/29/2007 9:43:38 PM | Slide,
Don't mind the skipping at all.
[The purpose of most SM play, is that it is 'play' it is not intended to be real/permanent.]
I incorporated the word "most" to cover the majority of SM scening. However, sometimes one partner eventually decides that they wish to go beyond the limits of the other partner.....
strikes a chord with marriage, when one spouse wants more/varied sex than the other..what to do, what to do???
E | |
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