| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 12:29:42 PM | For justforumsplease:
Carbon steel kitchen knives are the duck's nuts. I've been looking for a set around here forever, but no joy. I hate Florida sometimes.
Since you're in Fla, and I'm not... here's where I look for the carbon steel goods... Hit the 2nd hand and church thrift shops. Look near retirement communities for Hadassah (jewish), ARC, Salvation Army, or Deseret (LDS) stores. When it's time for g'granny to pass through the vale, the family seems to dump the old kitchen stuff off at the local 2nd hand box instead of mingling those 70+ year old knives with the new stainless stuff. Last year, while helping set up my son's first apartment, I hit the Deseret shop in Phx, and got him cast iron, copper-bottom, and corningwear at about 25 cents on the dollar, plus a block and carbon knives, etc. Outfitted a whole kitchen for under $50.00.
You can also find some high quality cast iron, copper, and brass cookware too. If you make a habit of visiting the same stores, pick up a tool or two with every visit, they'll remember you and set the good stuff aside if you let them know what you're looking for.
Good luck finding the goods,
/v | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 12:48:10 PM | random entry...there are different types of ceramics...obviously the tiles on the shuttle dont need to maintain a razor sharp cutting edge...nor would the ceramic that a knife is made of be suitable for machining work...here is a quote that i googled...
"Probably the major down side of the ceramic insert is its brittleness. Generally ceramic cutters don't hold up well to interrupted cuts or thermal shock. To help alleviate this performance constraint, small crystals of silicon carbide are put into the aluminum oxide compound"
titanium nitride will lessen the chance of thermal shock failure if its added to the ceramic...but if you are gonna use a knife that is infused with up to 40% titanium you might just as well get a titanium knife...it would probably be cheaper and last longer...
i can see ceramic knives being a single purpose knife only | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 1:05:07 PM | lmao...this thread is turning into a lesson in metallurgy ...
ALL commercially produced steel contains carbon...mild steel...(car bodies...I-beams etc)...have .30% or less carbon...above .30% is carbon steel...to .80% i think...above .80% gives you high carbon steel...only trouble is...the more carbon you add...the more brittle the steel becomes...heat treating a carbon steel is the way to go with a knife...it should be tempered after forging and rough grinding to shape...i have made several hunting knives...the steel i used came from a broken power hack saw blade...
one lady described the forging process and yes forging is the way to get the most benefit from the steel but the metal is not folded over hundreds of times...the drop hammer of the forge pounds the red hot steel into shape and in doing so...realigns the molecules of the steel...(its been a long time since i studied metallurgy in trade school)...
to the OP...stick with a decent brand name and you'll be safe...good christ...these are freaking knives...they cut stuff...some better than others... | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 1:08:06 PM | Carbon Seel Knife? This knife is great, you can feel it cut which is not the case with a Henkels. Should you want one just Google Lee Valley Tools and do a search for kitchen knives. The bit below is pasted from their catalogue.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................... Peasant Chef's Knife
Some years ago we bought a large quantity of antique French carbon-steel knives. One that became legendary in its popularity was a style of knife that would have been in every peasant's home a century ago, and which commonly would have been the only kitchen knife in the home. It was a knife that could do anything from splitting turnips to finely dicing herbs, and could deal with any other slicing and chopping activities in between. We have had it replicated in every detail — size, handle shape, high-carbon steel blade, etc., except we have used resin-impregnated wood for the handle in place of the original unfinished beech.
The carbon-steel blade takes a finer edge than stainless steel, and is easier to resharpen. Since carbon-steel blades invariably darken in use, we include simple instructions on ways to keep it shiny.
The great strengths of this knife are its general shape, balance and size. You may have other knives, but this is the one you will use most often.
Measures about 12" long overall with a 6-3/4" blade. Comes in a fitted presentation box.
Peasant Chef's Knife
45K36.46 $19.95
Home Woodworking Gardening Hardware Gifts
(2)
© Copyright 1998 to 2007 by Lee Valley Tools Ltd. and Veritas®Tools Inc. All rights reserved. | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 1:16:57 PM | Well, so long as no one gives us a long winded treatise on the Rockwell Hardness Scale, we should be golden. | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 1:53:35 PM | i wouldnt go past 68 on the rockwell scale.... it might get brittle..
as far as knives it really depends on how you plan to sharpen them as to what knives to get. the sharper(more acute angle) and harder the knife the more experienced you must be. very hard knives can be razor sharp and hold the edge for many times over of other knives but to geth the most out of them you must get a very refined edge on them that can quite a bit of time and a lot of different coursenesses of watever the sharpening apparatis is. there is both american and japanese ways of doing this. there are also high quality blades that can be much harder than your wustolff sabatier variety and cheaper although they are not recommended but to those that are trully passionate of having the sharpest edges. they are dangerous and hard to maintain you could say. if your just going to grind the edge away with some sort of machine or handheld device then i recommend these: http://www.heavenlyhammock.com/hammock-11762.html
they are of somewhat better steel then your wostolf or other european brand variety and dont have the full bolster that in my opinion is pretty pointless and makes for a weird hole next to the bolster when you sharpen if you dont grind down the bolster. anyway just keep it sharp as a dull knife can be very dangerous when force is applied. | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 2:22:20 PM | 68 rockwell????umm...in a word...no
a knife that hard would be impossible to sharpen unless you had access to a tool room grinder | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 2:31:34 PM | I have this great set of Kershaw (KAI) knives that have many blades with an interchangeable hande that I have been using for years. The Japanese stell is great and holds and edge forever. I find it comparable to Solingen steel used by Mora or the good Inox company. However, My grandfather left me a hunting knife, made by Marbles Safety out of The good 'ol USA. It must be 50 yrs old, and has a full stag handle. It is by far the most durable and well handling knife I have ever used. It holds a razor edge for longer than any other knife I have ever used. I use it for everything but fresh bread. But as a good set of all purpose knives, the Kershaw set is awesome.
.02 deposited!
JD
P.S. Are "ducks nuts" comparable to "the cat's ass"?
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 4:34:59 PM | I really dont want to get into a steel debate and take this off topic but yes your right it is hard to sharpen.. however you do not need a grinder to sharpen it... you can use stones.... actually henckles has a knife out right now that they are making in there japanese factory of ZDP-189 that is that hard... http://www.zwilling.com/locale/en_ww/index.php?bereich=sortiment&produktbereich_id=1&produktbereich=serien&serie_id=3306&kapitel_id=2289
but this will be a bear to sharpen and might take an hour...
i know many people with knives this hard and have no problem sharpening them.
i have a few knives in the 62-65Rc ballpark that i love to sharpen. it really depends on the properties of the steel aswell as the hardness as far as sharpening goes. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 5:58:29 PM | Here is a description of different materials knives are made out of. This most people find very helpful when purchasing knives. It will also give you details of the advantages and disadvantages of each.
-Carbon Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. Carbon steel commonly used in knives has around 1.0% carbon (ex. AISI 1095). A carbon steel blade can be very sharp, hold its edge well, and remain easy to sharpen, but is vulnerable to rust and stains. Some professional cooks swear by knives of carbon steel because of their sharpness, but many find that the extra sharpness is not worth the trouble of the extra maintenance; these blades must be cleaned and dried after every single use. Over time, a carbon-steel knife acquires a dark patina. Some people find this a charming sign of age, but others find it unsightly. They may impart a metallic or "iron" flavor to acidic foods.
-Stainless Steel is an alloy of iron, approximately 10-15% chromium, possibly nickel, and molybdenum, with only a small amount of carbon. It is not able to take quite as sharp an edge as carbon steel, but is highly resistant to corrosion. The thin, flexible, shiny blades common in cheap kitchen knives are typically made of stainless steel. They are difficult to sharpen, so they are often made with serrations, which slows dulling and enables them to cut adequately when they do become dull.
-High Carbon Stainless Steel is stainless steel with a certain amount of carbon arbitrarily deemed "high", and is intended to combine the best attributes of carbon steel and ordinary stainless steel. High carbon stainless steel blades do not discolor or stain, and maintain a sharp edge. Examples of such steels include 440C, AUS-8, AUS-10, ATS-55, and many others. It is typically used in higher-end kitchen knives, though some very expensive Japanese knives use carbon steel.
-Laminate blades try to use the best of multiple materials by creating a layered sandwich of different metals (there are no laminated blades made of plastic or ceramic.) Sometimes a harder, more brittle steel is sandwiched between two softer, tougher steels, so that the blade combines the attributes, to some extent, of both. Some Japanese and Swedish blades are made that way. Sometimes the outer layers are also stainless, to reduce vulnerability to corrosion (though the part most affected by corrosion, the edge, is still vulnerable.) Due to their varying construction, it is impossible to make any generalizations about them.
-Titanium is metal that is lighter, more wear resistant, and more flexible than steel, but also less hard and it will not take as sharp an edge. But carbides in the titanium alloy allow them to be heat-treated to a sufficient hardness. Titanium does not impart any flavor to food. It is typically expensive.
-Ceramic blades are incredibly hard blades; so hard that they will maintain a sharp edge for months or years with no maintenance at all. Like titanium, they do not impart any taste to food and are immune to corrosion. On the other hand, although ceramic blades can be sharpened on silicon carbide sandpaper or many grinding wheels, it is difficult enough that they are usually professionally sharpened. Also, they are hard enough to cut through glaze on dinnerware, so they should only be used on cutting boards. Further, although they are hard, they are very brittle, and will chip if struck against hard objects, or even if certain sharpeners are used on them (such as those that use two small abrasive rods set in a "V" shape. If they are used to pry or lever things apart, they may snap in two. They are very light in weight, which some may consider an advantage, and some a disadvantage, since their balance may be thrown off if not designed properly.
-Plastic blades are not very sharp at all. Their primary use is for cutting through vegetables such as lettuce without causing them to discolor (a steel knife will cause the cut edges of lettuce to turn black.) Plastic knives can cut skin, especially wet skin, but will not penetrate far into flesh, a boon for cooks. They can't scratch dinnerware or cutting boards. They can be resharpened, but they are cheap enough that they are regarded as semi-disposable. They cannot be made as sharp as metal or ceramic blades, but since they are typically serrated, they may perform adequately for their intended purpose. | |
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| Favourite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 7:34:46 PM | i have been a tool and die maker since you were 10 yrs old and if you claim to know more than i do about the various alloys...have at'er...
the end | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 7:36:40 PM | Not sure if this is a question or a comment ... chefs?
My understanding was that a sharpening steel was to hone the edge a bit, remove any burrs, etc. ... not to put an edge on a dull knife. That's how I use mine. If the blade is dull, a steel isn't going to give it the edge I want.
And, if a blade is dull, it'll slip and you'll be more likely to be cut. Care with sharp toys of course, but sharp is better and safer if ... | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 8:56:31 PM | yea theres always one of you guys around....
no i already said i dont want to debate different alloys with you. all i said is im a cook and i can sharpen my knives just fine. the same ones you claim to need a grinder for.. if you really want to be rude about it. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 9:08:58 PM | if you look at a knife edge under a microscope after it has been ground...you will see a burr...the knife will be sharp as hell at this point if its ground right but that burr or folded over edge of steel will produce a cut thats more like sawing than anything else...this is where a hone comes in...in some cases you can use a knife sharpening steel...in other cases you can use a stone...or even a leather strop...ever watch an old barber using a razor strop on a straight razor?...
what i like to use to put a final edge on a knife blade is a stone...called a hard arkansas...i dont know what grit value it is given but it is extremely fine...
the way i was shown how to do a knife blade was to lay the knife on its edge on the stone and then pretend you are trying to shave thin slivers off the stone...do the same number of strokes on each side of the blade...the object here is to produce the correct cutting angle...(4 degrees or something...i forget exactly...google it)...
and you are trying to get that burr as small as possible if not gone altogether...
ALWAYS sharpen from the cutting edge back...never hone in the direction of the blade... i.e along its length...you will get it sharp but it will not reatain its edge very well
a good knife should be hollow ground...(slightly concave)... so that when you lay it on the stone the two contact points automatically form the correct cutting angle...
(can we put sharpening to rest yet?...sheesh)
on a lighter note...if you do cut yourself with a razor sharp knife...it wont hurt as much as if the knife were dull...so all you inept knife jugglers out there...yer gonna cut yourselves no matter what you do, so to lessen the pain...(unless yer into that sort of thing)...keep your knifes sharp...
to the dude with the plastic knives...i put them back in your toy box...right next to your crayons...you can play with them again tomorrow after quiet time... | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/19/2007 10:27:20 PM | en garde: It's all relative to how worn down the edge is. The more worn down, the more rejuvenation the edge needs, the more aggressive the technique has to be. I was told that a sharpening steel should be used often. But no, it is not going to resharpen a knife.
When you get down to it at a microscopic level really all edges are serated and the steel does not sharpen or create those but it REALIGNS them. There are coarse and fine "sharpening" steels, too.
fistncuffs: I've never had any reason to read up on ceramic knives specifically. I have followed the ceramics from a scientific standpoint since Popular Science first mentioned them. Like you, I have made knives and circle cutters and gouges.... from nicholson files, valves, and pushrods. I carved one of my wooden spoons with the HC steel gouge I made. Lots of fun.
Lee Valley has a great reputation amongst the woodworking community, too. Their planes are well reputed for very good blades and great steel in them. In general I would trust them.
Henckels makes a good knife of forged high carbon steel. Their knives are not stamped out of poured metal like other knives. They are hand forged. Which means the metal is heated up & folded over multiple times making hundreds of layers of metal to give it strength and durablity. After the metal is folded numerous times it is then hardened on ice. The knives have a full tang. That means the metal runs all the way from the blade through the handle. This makes them nearly impossible to break. They have a well balance bolster. This makes the knife easy to handle and cut with. The best part of investing in Henckels is if you have one which breaks, you can always return it to the retailer.
Same technique they use to make samurai swords. It is amazing how the steel becomes almost like wood in that it now has a "grain" with tougher and weaker layers.
The last set of knives I bought, the japanese sushi knives actually came with a indentation from a diamond point being dropped into them to confirm the rockwell hardness. I forget the number now. Actually a lot of you telling numbers is irrelevant without knowing which scale it comes off of. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/20/2007 4:35:52 AM | | Actually... "duck's nuts" is a slightly higher level of awesomeness than "cat's ass". | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/21/2007 6:15:40 PM | I use Calphalon, and Kershaw Shun Classics everyday in the kitchen at work. When it comes to buying knives it is very important not to buy a knife because it looks cool. Buy a knife that is comfortable... if it isn't comfortable you won't use it. Also to avoid slips and wrist pain learn to hold your knives. Your index fingure and thumb should pinch the heel of the blade and your last three fingures should wrap the handle. this makes the knife an extension of your arm reducing wrist fatigue. I have seen more people cut themselves from not holding a knife right, than cutting with a dull knife... and the combination of the two is frightening.
Also never buy knives from a department store. They may be cheap but they are definately shit, you can't even take the knives out of the box to look at them. If you go to a proper kitchen supply store they allow you to try the knives in the store. If you buy a knife and you dont like it when you get it home, take it back. Knives are like anything else you buy... if you dont like them, return them.
Lastly the original post asked for the two most important knives. I am a firm believer that a skilled cook only needs four knives a chef's/french, a paring, a fillet, and a boning (I dont use a boning knife because I like the flexability of a fillet knife). In a home kitchen a chef's/french knife and a paring knife are definately the two most important. At home I use a Calphalon Santoku (a japanese style chef's knife, which I use for everying). besides steak and butter knives, this is the only knife in my home, and this is my profession (but then again, I cook all day, I dont cook at home unless I have someone else to cook for).
- Alex | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/21/2007 8:40:48 PM | | I have both Henckel and Wusthof-Trident........the latter is a bit better and any good quality knife or kitchen shop will explain the differences to you. Half tank, full tang etc. Whatever feels good in your hand also makes a big difference. Good Luck! | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/22/2007 8:03:22 PM | | The Henckels Santoku knife is love at first sight. It looks huge, but once you start using it - it's incredible. Aside from that, at least one chef's knife (average size for smaller projects is good). They recommend sharpening it every time before you use it - just a quick refresher. Always hand wash even if it says dishwasher safe. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/22/2007 8:53:54 PM | Damn, I hate it when someone blows the borders with a long URL. Try www.tinyurl.com, peeps.
That said. My favorite knives are all hand me downs: one Henckel, with the tip broken (I filed it to a rounded end) -- was about a 9" chef's knife. The other two, are both fillet knives. One for a hunter, with a serrated top, about 6", the other same design, about 9' without the serrated top.
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/22/2007 9:46:06 PM | i wont buy a knife for under like 150 bucks.... it really starts to become an addiction... and i only really need one knife, but i like having three, 1 thin blade one for fine cuts, one thick blade for filleting fish, frenching bones, and deboning chickens, and other numorous tasks on substantial surfaces that my thin blade knife would chip, and then a slicer for silverskin,slicing tasks,and other things a blade of less heigth would accomplish..(this is set for a concave edge)..i choke way up on the blade of my knives for paring duties mostly.....now all that being said i probly bring 10-12 knives to work.. i have cheap sabatier if im worried it will get stolen,bread knife,paring knife, tourne knife, wavy knife,etc. i leave the very expensive knives at the house(unless i get a job that i can really trust the folks and really maticulous knife skills are required on constant level..
- fistincuffs-
you sir are a true gentleman and im sorry if i offended you in anyway, im sure we are both right in some degrees about that and you are probly more right than me.... if one was to sharpen a knife that hard it would take the life out of a stone it would not even be worth it and a grinder is probly the way to go with that, my little pride got in the way when people said someone will come along with a disseratation on rockwell hardness because it is something i look at although there are other factors like levels of mol, val, carbide size,etc. im sure you know way more about this than i do. i make no claims of being a metallurgist in any way i just read up on it but just getting in to it really. thank you for not argueing and letting it go and im sorry for disrespecting words. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/22/2007 9:56:27 PM | | Why not get a couple knives of various types and see how they work out.. if you find something that works, keep adding to them... I know a guy who bought used ones on ebay so he could practise his sharpening skills and see how long the blade stays sharp... | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/23/2007 4:01:39 AM | excellent idea...buying knives at a reduced price to practise sharpening...i used to hunt and fish a lot up here in ontario...i have a Russel belt knife that i could literally shave with...i put the edge on it with a hard arkansas whetstone...
kjabean...if you want a good knife for doing fish...google rapala knives...the blades are very thin both in thickness of blade and distance from cutting edge to backbone...extremely pointy and flexible...the flexibility allows you to "feel" when you are cutting fish filets...(nothing i hate more than chowing down on a fresh walleye filet only to be picking bones out of my mouth)...
most rapala knives have a built in sharpener in the sheath... | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/23/2007 5:29:36 AM |
Favorite knife?
I have an affinity for the one my ex plunged into my back. Nostalgia, I guess. | |
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| Favorite knife?
Posted: 3/23/2007 6:47:19 AM | | lol dogwood...i hear ya...there was a question asked in one of the threads about the best place to store knives...i almost said my ex liked to keep hers in my back... | |
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