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Posted: 8/9/2008 9:21:50 AM | >>>why Wal-Mart, the wealthiest of the offenders, feels it does not have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us.
I....I don't really understand that in that context. If the consumer makes choices, and these choices have harmful effects on society, how is it Walmarts fault, and not the consumers? They are simply listening to society- a free market is nothing else than a perfect reflection of society- if people didn't want it, they wouldn't go to Walmart.
And you think they aren't abiding by the rules as 'the rest of us'? What kind of double speak is that? If you were promoting the ideal that everyone should get equal treatment,that everyone should have to abide to the rules, then you would not be looking to make an example of any business, the most successful or not- You would be looking for a massive change across the board- if Big Box stores create pollution because of their parking lots, then you would try and ban big box stores or big parking lots- not just the single most successful business- all businesses. Otherwise, you are setting rules and saying that, not everyone has to abide by them, simply the ones whom you believe are sinning.
You literally wrote something that is in complete contradiction of what actions you are promoting are.
Not to mention, what 'rules'? I'm not aware of any laws Walmart is breaking, but I'm certain the Government would happily cash in on it if what you say is true......or do you mean imposing a moral directive on society?
>>>Did Wal-Mart just decide in a vacuum that they wanted to run some environmentally friendly ads or does it prove that Wal-Mart is starting to be concerned about its tarnished image?
No, people wanted those products- Walmart reconized this and are attempting to profit off it- nothing more.
Walmart is simply acting in this own self-interest. People want more efficient light bulbs- they are acting in their own self interest- and Walmart offers them at competitive prices- they are acting in their own self interest. Theres no voodoo there- people want it, so Walmart sells it. Everyone profits.
I remember when I worked at a Call Centre, taking reservation calls for a hotel chain,and one of their franchises switched over to non-smoking- they didn't do it because they felt they need to impose a healthier standard for their guests or because they want to save one person from lung cancer- they did it because their customers wanted their hotels to be non-smoking- they were doing an overwhelming amount of business with non-smoking consumers,and the smoking rooms were going unused, and were actually damaging their ability to profit.
So they changed their policies- not for the betterment of mankind, but out of self-interest.
Stop condemning a business for not acting like a charity- there are millions of charities that, quite frankly, are better run than Walmart to begin with. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 9:58:49 AM | 1. What rules did Wal-Mart break? ? ? None. It's a canard, designed to drive a flawed emotional argument.
2. Wal-Mart is evil?? I think not. This entire conversation is irrelevant, unless you anti-capitalist types really want to drive out all the "evil corporations" - oh wait, I forgot - corporations are owned by individuals who buy the stock. I'll bet more than half of the posters here own Wal-Mart stock through their 401[k] contributions - and appreciate the return on their investment, even though they don't really know what they own. This is hypocritical at the very least.
The fact that China embraced capitalism because their political model was failing is lost on absolutists who believe in anarchy as opposed to anything else. Is China perfect? No, not by a long shot, but it's irrelevant, as protectionism is deadlier than free trade, which gives the Chinese a chance to improve their standard of living, education, and so on, and which, more importantly, expands the possibilities for individual liberty. What would you have Wal-Mart do, give up competing against the likes of Target, K-Mart, Kroger, Alco, Sears, et al? After you drive Wal-Mart out of business with your protectionist anti-trade hysteria, who will be next? Thus is exposed the REAL agenda.
Who do you think China buys its machine tools from? Who does it buys advanced technologies from? It's a two way street, as trade always is. It's better to "lift all boats" than it is to lock the doors and throw away the keys. We benefit - they benefit. And since we have far more disposable income than they do, we import more than we export. Anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with macro economics gets it.
Or maybe you'd rather ignore the enormous future economic power of 1.3 billion souls.
Excuse me while I go to shop at (insert name of favorite retail establishment that buys things from the PRC) and save money. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 10:17:11 AM | It's your right not to shop there, but first you should know the whole picture. Walmart does alot fo good, neighborhood communities, Children Miracle Network, Kids Camp, College Support for 5 different ones, Miles for Smiles to help mentally challenged individuals, and they cashed your stimilus checks fo0r free, just to name a few. They give millions every year to charity, so get the facts straight. Not to mention roll back pricing to help the economy. Name one grocery chain or big business that does this much. You will be hard pressed to find one Slurpee! Just an informed citizen........................... | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 10:25:12 AM | Walmart is simply acting in this own self-interest. People want more efficient light bulbs- they are acting in their own self interest- and Walmart offers them at competitive prices- they are acting in their own self interest. Theres no voodoo there- people want it, so Walmart sells it. Everyone profits.
Everyone but the Wall Mart employees | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 10:30:55 AM | having shopped in Walmart of 3 different countries I have to agree with the above poster,... Jiperly
Although the superficial design of the stores are easily recognizable,...you know your in a Walmart,... those stores can not be relocated in any other country,....
The one in Mexico wouldn't work in Canada etc,...why because each store is geared to maximizing it's own market,....that doesn't so much apply from one store to another in Canada where much of the purchasing is done on line,....
That's how I knew what I could buy for Christmas in Nova Scotia and have a son pick up in Edmonton,....again they do this because purchasing has made many changes over the years and the one thing I know is that Walmart wants their finger in all of those pies,....while many here complain they are doing it,....
All those other large retail outfits could have done the same and had nothing to complain about the Zellers here are dying,...K-Mart died here years ago,....they no longer even exist here,....The Bay, Eaton's, Sears,...and their Catalog ,....Reitmans you name me one that is alive and well,...why?
They all had their shot and missed the mark,...and none of them were particularly employee friendly,... They didn't pay what they didn't absolutely have to,...they all tried to get 2 part timers rather than one full timer and I could be wrong but I don't think any of them were unionized were they?
When I worked for Lawblaws I did work in a union shop,...and I'm here to tell you Unions had their place in days gone by they probably might again but these days it's just one more person yelling at you the worker,...The union never did anything for me but demand dues,....I thought and believe your union should be your advocate and middleman between you and the employer,but that wasn't my experience,... and it isn't like I didn't ask them for help from time to time,....but that's for a whole other forum,....
I would like to say there are big differences about working in Canada and working in the USA so you can't compare them equally,...we in Canada don't have to worry about basic health care,...we're all covered working or not,....we don't need to negotiate this,...there are extra's,..dental,..eye care that helps to have,...and that aren't a part of the basics but for the poor social services covers that they even pay for all drugs,...so compare apples to apples,....
In Mexico for example all the stores have a large group of teens and older people sitting waiting to take your cart to the car they do not get a salary from the store,...at all,...no store pays them,...they live from tips alone,....Walmart is no different,....why should they be,...that's the way it is in that country,....you can't compare that to Canada either,.... | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 7:58:11 PM | With 1.9m staff globally, Wal-Mart operates 4,000 stores in the US and 2,900 elsewhere. The company has been striving to improve its ethical image through a series of eye-catching environmental initiatives, although it is still the subject of wrath from workers' rights groups because of its hardline opposition to trade unions.
source: "Asda shoppers boost Wal-Mart profits" Andrew Clark, New York,Tuesday February 19 2008.
Let me repeat: "the company has been striving to IMPROVE ITS ETHICAL IMAGE through a series of EYE-CATCHING ENVIRONMENTAL INITIATIVES..."
This article is actually a pro-Wal-Mart article and even it agrees that Wal-Mart is attempting to improve its image, so those of you acting all coy and saying that Wal-Mart is just giving what the people want - you are crazy with denial.
Wal-Mart's underlying annual profits are $12.8bn. They are by far the largest general merchandiser in our country and possibly the world and yet they pay the lowest wages, offer worthless health care, damage the environment and run local businesses into the ground. And why do we put up with it? To save a little money? Is it worth it? Personally, I don't think so.
This country was founded on idealists - by people who understood that actions have consequences and inaction results in the worse kind of consequence. It is a sad and pathetic commentary of our current lack of values that we will trade our brothers and sisters in for a 10 percent discount on a bag of chips. | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 8:10:10 PM | Wal-Mart is evil??
I've just scrolled back through the last four pages and I do not see where anyone said "Wal-Mart is evil." I think this is a case of people mischaracterizing whatever is said against Wal-Mart as basically saying that Wal-Mart is evil. If you choose to interpret bullying and shameful behavior as evil, so be it but I don't seen any evidence (at least in the last four pages) of anyone against Wal-Mart saying that it is "evil."
UPDATE - okay if you go back to page 6, way back in December of last year, someone actually used the word "EVIL" in connection with Wal-Mart. Shock - horror - someone spoke their mind way back in December - better round her up and send in the thought police - however, as far as recent posts go, no one against Wal-Mart has used the word "evil" to describe their practices - nasty, abhorant, distasteful, shameful - yes, but not "evil." | |
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Posted: 8/9/2008 8:29:02 PM | Okay. I'll say it.
WAL-MART IS EVIL!!!
Smaggling the faces of it's naive, devoted workforce with the gobbledy-gook of the century.
There. I even made ecornographic!
Funny that the vast majority- I didn't say ALL-I'm aware that we have some Wal-Mart lovin' radicals here in the states... But a disproportional number of you folks touting the goodness of Wal-Mart live in Canada where health coverage isn't an issue for you, and where Wal-Mart is required by the Sovereign Law of the Crown, or whatever ya'll call it up there, to operate differently than they have the free reign to do down here in the States. Come down here and take a look around before you spew all that oral bovine feces about free trade, capitalism, and all those other noble ideals...
-damoN- | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 1:45:33 AM | | Ok Wal-Mart has probably done its fair share of dirty tricks, but I don't think there is a large scale retail organization that has clean hands. We all know that Wal-Mart pays its employess as little as they can leaglly get away with, but then again most giant retail companies do the same thing nowadays. I don't think that wages are all that high at Zellers in Canada or at Targets in the US. Most of the stock in Wal-Mart originates in China? Check where the merchanidse you buy in Zellers/Target/the Christmas Tree Store originates. What is the solution to the problem(s) posed by Wal-Mart? That is what I would like to see someone post. We all know the problems. The posters who are saying that Wal-Mart is merely cashing in on peoples desire to buy cheap products are correct in pointing that out. What is to be done?? | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 10:21:56 AM | | One thing that would help is if consumers took a little time to consider the long term v. the short term benefits of their shopping choices. Your shopping experience does not take place in a vacuum. Where and how you spend your money does make a difference. | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 11:44:29 AM | Not to nitpick, but how is that only one thing? That's everything- if consumers considered their choices more often, this problem would resolve itself entirely and completely, period.
That been said, the hinge of that is you'd have to respect other peoples decisions to take their business to Walmart if they consider it the superior choice. And that's what we're really arguing here- not your desire to give people the freedom of choice, to consider the options and come to their own conclusions- but your desire to deny people the freedom of choice- that you see only one solution, yours, and you see nothing wrong punishing and/or condemning those whom do not share your views.
What if the majority of the country knows and understands the damage Walmart does, and accepts it- would you still fight to close Walmarts? | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 12:13:21 PM | UPDATE: It's been over a week now, and I'm happy to report that as of yet I have not suffered any symptoms of lead poisoning from my lovely new $7.99 coffee pot.
I'm told the children at the orphanage spent the extra $12.09 I had to donate (thanks to getting such a good deal at Wal Mart) on overpriced ice cream and cakes from the local mom and pop store. See how everyone wins when we shop at Wal Mart? | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 12:51:53 PM | you see only one solution, yours, and you see nothing wrong punishing and/or condemning those whom do not share your views.
Jip, are you sure you aren't looking in the mirror? Because if you look at your posts, you are pretty quick to criticize those of us who don't share your views. Can't you take as good as you give?
I don't know what to make of your hyperbole, either - how is speaking your mind CONDEMNING or PUNISHING people? You do understand the definitions don't you? I have my right to speak my mind, as do you. You flatter me to assume that I single-handedly could deny people the freedom to do as they please but you miss the point of my posts, at least, and maybe others. We are providing information and encouraging people to think for themselves.
What the heck? Maybe it is punishment for some to read this post, but I am not the one inflicting it on them.
BTW OddAndy - LOL - I think it takes a while for the effects of lead poisoning to be noticeable - I would still get that old coffee pot tested, if I were you. As for the orphans - bless their hearts for patronizing a local provider - I bet their ice cream tasted way better than any old cup of coffee any day. | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 1:44:06 PM | | My daughter worked at WalMart until she left to have her baby earlier this year. In addition to several raises, she was finally transferred to the pharmacy department where she was being trained to be a certified pharmacy technician. They have already told her that she would lose no seniority due to pregnancy if she returns within two years and that if she so desires, they will pay her tuition to the University of Texas-Arlington so she can obtain a pharmacy degree as long as she goes in her off-time, and is willing to work at WalMart for a year after she gets her degree. I think they're pretty good for doing this... | |
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Posted: 8/11/2008 9:37:14 PM | | Yep, Wal Mart is evil I am skeptical of the promises being made to the above poster's daughter. I don't trust Wal Mart. They've pulled alot of dirty tricks on people. | |
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Posted: 8/12/2008 12:03:08 PM | >>> Because if you look at your posts, you are pretty quick to criticize those of us who don't share your views.
Ah, but my beliefs, although I disagree with yours, lies clearly within the grounds that I still support your and everyone's choice to make for themselves. If Walmart chooses to enact certain businesses practices, I do not say they are evil(msg 333, 340, 148), that they should be forced to follow my standards and my beliefs (msg 276), or that we should make an example of them(msg 311, 290) . Such statements clearly invalidates anyone thoughts and opinions but your own, and sets your beliefs up to be the be all end all. The moment you start talking about how a business is sinning, that they should be penalized for not sharing their successes with their employees by doubling or tripling their wages- that you should have the right to force a business to do anything- you've crossed the line of saying 'if only people would look at the issue objectively',and are now dictating how things must be
Once again, I ask- if the majority of America were aware of Walmarts practices, considered them, and decided that they'd rather do business with Walmart- would you respect that persons choice? Or would you continue your crusade against Walmart?
Its either your misrepresenting your beliefs ,or you're contradicting yourself- that you're making it seem like you respect peoples beliefs while condemning people for not accepting yours,with the ultimate goal of invalidating their standards and values- or, if the majority of America knows Walmarts negative business practices(which are hardly a secret), and chooses to do business with them anyways,you'd accept that, and privately make your own choice too, based on your own standards and values. And according to Wikipedia, 1/3 of Americans visit Walmart once a week, or 100,000,000 Americans- clearly through the free market, the majority of Americans see the issue and have made a decision on it- do you respect those peoples choices?
You cannot in one sentence say that you respect peoples right to come to their own conclusions while at the same time actively try to invalidate their conclusions- if you respected other peoples choices, you wouldn't be working to undermine what they believe in.
>>>how is speaking your mind CONDEMNING or PUNISHING people?
Telling a business how it must be run, especially through Government actions, is.
>>>We are providing information and encouraging people to think for themselves.
Weren't people doing that already?
Its like arguing to ban cigarettes- the cigarette smokers say that they are aware of the risk, but like it reguardless, and choose to use it. You say the cigarette smokers don't know what they're talking about, and push to make the decision for them, because they don't understand what you do. There's providing information, and there's imposing your beliefs. And I gotta say, implying that Walmart is selling poisoned or tainted products(end of msg 338) is imposing fear and speculation ,rather than facts and information, and I believe is breaking a few slander laws on top of that.
----
DesigningWomans post above me is an excellent example of why I'm posting here less and less- Walmart hired within- 70% of their skilled labor jobs are just that- and gave its employee the training they needed to be more successful and more valuable to the company. And she scoffed and called the user a liar. Nice. | |
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Posted: 8/12/2008 12:12:45 PM |
One thing that would help is if consumers took a little time to consider the long term v. the short term benefits of their shopping choices. Your shopping experience does not take place in a vacuum. Where and how you spend your money does make a difference.
I couldn't agree more (as with just about everything neaptide has contributed to this thread). I decided several years ago never to shop at WalMart and I've stuck to it, largely because of their local impacts but also for several of the other reasons that have been outlined numerous times in previous posts. | |
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Posted: 8/12/2008 12:15:14 PM | Jiperly, Designing didn't call ANYONE a liar, nor did she scoff. She expressed her skepticism based upon experience.
Why don't you get down off of your holier-than-thou high horse, before it bucks you off into a pile of it's own horseshit. All you've done here is argue and take exceptions to others contributions. Maybe when you mature a little more, you'll begin to understand that. Operative word, "maybe"...
-damoN- | |
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| Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/12/2008 1:19:39 PM | Jip, I don't mind your contributions to this thread, but your language is hyperbolic and does not advance your position. Using words like Condemn, Punish, and Liar, all are inflamatory words and make people want to return the treatment. Why don't you just calm down and say what it is you are trying to say without the strong language?
As for me, personally, single-handledly preventing people from shopping at Wal-Mart, again, I am flattered by the image, but how is that possible? Not unlike the thorns that come with roses, I am happy being the thorn that jabs one's consciousness and make them think about their actions. There is nothing wrong with me saying what I have said before - think before you spend your money. If there are people out there that have considered the long-term impacts of shopping at Wal-Mart and still choose to patronize that store, so be it.
However, just like the secondhand smoke from a smoker degrades the air I breath, so does these shoppers' disregard for the long term impacts degrade my quality of life and the quality of life of my children as well as themselves - so I am here to remind people that patronizing a store that devalues employees, the environment and the local community is a tacit approval of that behavior and perhaps they should try a more healthier approach to spending their cash. | |
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| Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/12/2008 1:29:31 PM | Brilliantly and eloquently stated, Neap.
-damoN- | |
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| Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/12/2008 1:35:42 PM | And just for those of you who think I am slandering Wal-Mart by my quip regarding lead poisoning, here are a couple quick articles confirming that, indeed, lead poisoning is a serious concern with really CHEAP products, such as the ones found at Wal-Mart.
[And let me present a caveat: I understand that Wal-Mart did not put the lead in these products nor do I believe they had any nefarious intentions in selling the product - my point is that this is one of many negative impacts when everyone (businesses, consumers and our own government) focuses on the cheapest deal possible.]
1. Wal-Mart baby bib recall due to risk of lead poisoning – 5/03/07
2. Children's Earrings Sold at Wal-Mart Stores in Florida Recalled by Uncas Manufacturing Co. Due to Lead Poisoning Hazard – 7/17/07
3. Wal Mart Hip Chain Recall -The CPCS Recalls Key Chains for High Lead Levels – 4/28/08
4. CPSC, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Announce Recall of Karaoke Cassette Player/Recorders, 4/13/05 (“The paint on the five control buttons of the karaoke player contains excessive lead, posing a lead poisoning hazard to young children. Lead poisoning in children is associated with behavioral problems, learning disabilities, hearing problems, and growth retardation.”) | |
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| Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/12/2008 1:37:52 PM | Read The Walmart Effect: How the World's Most Powerful Company Really Works - and How It's Transforming the American Economy by Charles Fishman. Then, after reading it, tell me you still support WalMart. Fishman describes the inhumane treatment of workers, the environmental devastation, and the ruinous effect on many local economies that WalMart has wrought. As Fishman asks, "If people knew that the jeans they were wearing were used to beat the very person making them, would they still shop at WalMart?"
WalMart keeps its prices the lowest by keeping their employees underpaid and by forcing suppliers to locate in places like China where labor is cheap and safety, environmental, and human rights laws almost non-existent. In states that keep figures on such things, WalMart's employees receive the highest percentage of government assistance than any other company. What that means is that WalMart depends on you, the taxpayer, the provide health care, food stamps, and aid to dependent children. Think again about those low prices.
By the way, Costco, Target, and K-Mart have fairly low prices but treat their employees and suppliers much better than WalMart. As a result, they have a much higher employee retention rate.
If all you care about is price and you don't care how that price was achieved, then I would say you have no conscience.
I do not shop at WalMart and shopping at WalMart might be a deal-breaker for me in thinking of a potential partner. Friends don't let friends shop at WalMart. Read Fishman's book, then come back and tell me how much you love WalMart. | |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 2:42:51 PM | Oh sheesh...I am back at the WalMart thread! 
I just heard from an old friend who we have not talked in a while. She had been employed with a large pet food company here in St. Louis for about a gazillion years and was laid off for some bullsh1t reason. Anyway, she informed me that she took on a cashier position at WalMart and absolutely LOVES the job, benefits, and hours...said she would not take her three times higher paying job, back for anything. :) | |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 3:46:05 PM | | Congradulations Wal-Mart. You are now considered to offer a better working enviroment then a pet food factory. | |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 8:17:24 PM | Arwen, excellent post! I agree that Costco, K Mart and Target do a better job of taking care of their employees. And yes, there's a K Mart in the Hamptons  and it's always crowded.  to you Wal Mart!! There's ALWAYS an alternative if you are willing to look!!!!!
One of my favorite blankets was bought at K Mart. It is a soft cotton blanket that I enjoy curling up under when I am watching TV. I've had it for a long time, and it's still going strong.
Family Dollar has alot of people who have worked there for years. I like shopping there too. | |
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