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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 401 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:23:59 PM | You keep mentioning its use on animals. Pray tell, how do you know its therapeutic effects in that scenario? Animals can't tell you whether or not anything is working.
Why they use pet psychics of course! D'uh! [/sarcasm]
It's easier to understand the draw of pseudoscience if you apply the: "Great Circle of Reason ®" | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:46:26 PM |
Pray tell, how do you know its therapeutic effects in that scenario? Animals can't tell you whether or not anything is working.
It's used for health conditions - pretty obvious. Same as veterinary medicine. You can tell it's working if the condition is gone. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/9/2009 10:15:52 PM |
You can tell it's working if the condition is gone.
zedstead, you hear the buzzer? Thanks for playing, really.
A great number of false cures are built on this premise. Bodies with healthy imune systems will recover from temporary malaise, even without magic stones, incantations, crystals or, in this case, needles.
Why don't you leave science alone? It's done nothing to you. Stop trying to hurt it. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 4:31:59 AM |
Acupuncture is recognized by the American Veterinary Medical Association as "the
examination and stimulation of specific points of the body of non-human animals by use of
acupuncture needles, injections, low-level lasers, magnets and a variety of other techniques
for the diagnosis and treatment of numerous conditions in animals." The policy goes on to
state, "Veterinary acupuncture and acutherapy are now considered an integral part of
veterinary medicine."
http://vetmed.illinois.edu/petcolumns/showarticle.cfm?id=97
Is too hot: Non sequitor much? Psdeudoscience is a disparaging umbrella term where every hack-kneed claim is included along with time tested practices so yes... there are qualifyers.
One way you might know that acupuncture is working is that the animal will allow surgery to happen without anesthesia.
Prejudice and scorn are great negators of interest it seems. Anesthesia without dangerous drugs... we should be more interested.
What falsifiable information can one glean from palmistry? IQ, health, general disposition. It's more precise, IMO than Myers Briggs Personality Inventory and other such tests.
Why they use pet psychics of course! D'uh! [/sarcasm]
It's easier to understand the draw of pseudoscience if you apply the: "Great Circle of Reason ®"
Why don't you use your power of google and open your own mind? | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:01:11 AM |
. I think whether or not it is a science is irrelevant. It is popular enough so it should be taught.
Perhaps squeezed in between astrology classes and crystal healing classes? Those are both poular too.
A local thought comes rocketting to my mind. Who was it on here who said "A mind is like parachute it must be open to function?" ... I think it fits well right here right now.
Here's a few more quotes:
I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.
Arthur Hays Sulzberger
A diplomat is a man who says you have an open mind, instead of telling you that you have a hole in the head.
Unknown
A great many open minds should be closed for repairs.
Toledo Blade
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:55:57 AM |
A great number of false cures are built on this premise. Bodies with healthy imune systems will recover from temporary malaise, even without magic stones, incantations, crystals or, in this case, needles.
Most of the drugs getting peddled to doctors every day, chemotherapy, surgery etc etc etc. All of modern medicine can be claimed to be useless in the same way. Except that it has a tendency to occasionally awful side effects, in addition, something acupuncture doesn't do.
I won't leave it alone, because it's wrong what's going on, plain and simple. I'm tired of the hypocrisy and prejudice going on, and I will continue to look for answers in every possible way. The old paradigm which you are so desperately clinging to will continue to sink, because people are not so stupid as to just follow what they read "the newest study says!" and so on. They have actual life experiences that go against what they're told. "Scientific" medicine failed me, as it fails so many, and so they are leaving, en masse, to find better options - and luckily there are many.
The medicines called "pseudoscience" (which basically means "Not my culture!"), tend to have the common positive attribute of not being nearly as dangerous as allopathic medicine. Your ignorance of everything you reject is obvious, including acupuncture, so as far as I'm concerned, your opinion is moot. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:14:06 AM | Hi Zed
This is replying to your message #400. I will try to answer your question with a very personal example that I recently was involved in.
You wrote:
What I would love to see is a real study comparing short and long term outcomes from patients going through Western Medicine and Traditional Chinese Medicine, both using their full array of diagnostic and therapeutic techniques. I wouldn't know how close the numbers would be on who would be helped, but I'd put money down that more people would be harmed by Western Medicine.
Here is what happened. My 85 year old mother recently had a problem with pain in her lower right abdomenal area. She was diagnosed with a hernia, and after a minor out patient "procedure", she went home. She was in pain for a few days, but now doesn't have to worry about the hernia recurring, and becoming even more dangerous........ What and HOW would traditional Chinese Medicine have diagnosed/cured her problem?
I can give you and even more drastic example........ Same person, my dear 'ol 85 year old mother, started having pains in the stomach area. Seems like every time we went to the doctor, she was fine. Everybody was mystified. To make a long story short, it reached a point where it got worse and worse. What happened is that her stomach
"torsioned', or twisted on its axis, and effectively shut off entry and exit. The bile ducts kept making bile, and her stomach kept distending. Eventually the doctors forced a tube down her throat, and removed almost 2 liters (!) of fluid. Due to the pressure, the stomach had ruptured through the diaphragm, but fortunately had not ruptured itself. After a 4 hour operation, 4 weeks later, she is doing fine. My question to you is how a handfull of long needles would put the part of her stomach back through the diaphragm, repair that rupture, and affix the stomach in its proper position so she hopefully won't have this problem again?
I, for one, am extremely thankful that she lives in a country where WESTERN medicine is practiced, and we have more than a handfull of needles to fix real problems.
Are you sure you really want to stand by your statement?
Paul K | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:26:44 AM | First of all acupuncture is only one therapy used in TCM, there are also herbal remedies and others. As it is currently practiced it uses more variety than it used to, technology being what it is. The fact that your grandmother was already in this condition might have been diagnosed much sooner in TCM.
The thing about Eastern medicines is that diagnosis also happens very differently, so you telling me what her condition is doesn't mean I know how it would be treated. Instead of treating a "disease" they treat the entire body and see which systems are off balance, so to include a person's individual constitution as well. Plus I'm not a doctor, Eastern or Western.
My 87 year old grandmother went into the hospital as an outpatient to get a pacemaker and ended up staying for 3 weeks - because they gave her a medication that didn't work with her system. This sent her into seizures and so they gave her more of the wrong medication until someone finally figured out she wasn't having a stroke. Then they put her on other medication that made her toxic so they had to flush out her system. Meanwhile they ignored her complaints that her feet were numb, and basically left her in bed all day except for an occasional walk down the hall.
And that's just my grandma, I have more than a few horror stories involving the current medical system, including 2 women who died in the last year during hospital births that weren't supposed to go wrong. My friend's grandma has a similar horror story during the last few weeks of her life. I'm sorry but your anecdote is just one and I have many that are very different than that. I didn't even mention myself, but let's just say I went into the first doctor for my condition 25 years ago and I've gotten zero out of many, many, many subsequent visits. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:54:59 AM | your "faith",
It is sounding more like you are more angry towards western medicine because of your experiences.
It is a bit Pavlovian though, but you have an enormous bias towards doctors practicing this type of medicine. And therefore are sneering at it with not only this jaundiced eye, but putting your faith in snake oil salesmen promising much but delivering less than western medicine has done for the many.
Yes, there is still more to western medicine than success stories. but it is still advancing in so many ways. and if you are dissatisfied with one Dr.s style, you should get a second or third opinion. Even if it hasn't "Cured" you in ~25 years, it has kept you alive and inquisitive at least !
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 11:25:38 AM | | and you are SO much more objective Dale 09... "snake oil salesmen promising much but belivering less than..." have you not read about the Chinese Medical System at all? Have you been sleeping, it works! It is not perfect but then again neither is western medicine, but it works! No snake oil salemen. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 12:14:02 PM | It is sounding more like you are more angry towards western medicine because of your experiences.
You know, it wasn't all that long ago that massage therapy (my profession) was considered a "pseudoscience" and quackery.
Now doctors even prescribe it. I have helped, literally, hundreds of people, who suffered from chronic pain over the last three years. Some have avoided surgery because of it, and some of my clients are doctors, surgeons, nurses, physical therapists...many people in the western medical field.
As far acupuncture goes, the body will find a way to return to homeostasis. Certainly, not always. A lot of times it depends on the extent of systemic damage.
This following negates any "line of force" causality: "Beneficial effects did not differ depending on the training of the acupuncturist".
I think we are talking about two separate things.
When I say "line of force", I am talking about the traveling of the nerves through the myofascial planes. I am also talking about neurpatterning, neurotransmitters, spindles, and the golgi reflex arc.
I would ask for more information before I believed in the 100% accuracy of such a test. The research I have read around acupuncture, and other modalities, say otherwise... | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 12:17:40 PM |
Yes, there is still more to western medicine than success stories. but it is still advancing in so many ways. and if you are dissatisfied with one Dr.s style, you should get a second or third opinion. Even if it hasn't "Cured" you in ~25 years, it has kept you alive and inquisitive at least !
It has not kept me alive! I'm alive because it's not a terminal illness! It has done nothing, when I say zero I mean zero. I have seen at least a dozen specialists and I've had every test done known to modern medicine, they know so little that I don't even have a diagnosis. The chances of someone going into the doctor with a similar kind of illness as mine has a 50/50 chance of getting a diagnosis - that's according to a specialist. And that's just a name, not a reason or a even a therapy on the horizon. Second opinion, give me a break, how about twelfth?? My file is an inch thick, all full of "normal". But my experience is not unique.
It's because they just have no idea how to grasp how disease functions. The system is built on wrong premises and that's why it keeps failing - because it doesn't treat individuals, and it doesn't recognize interconnected systems. It only looks at one system at a time, and so those specialists get lost in their little corner. At least the doctors I go to are aware of this and admit it, thankfully, unlike those of you who think they know everything.
I've been to every kind of alternative medical practitioner you can think of as well as those that practice both kinds, so I know the differences between them, the positives and negatives and the theories behind it. You know absolutely nothing about any of it, obviously. I've yet to see anyone who is critical of these other therapies actually comment on it without clear ignorance of what they are criticizing.
I do what works - pure and simple. Western medicine doesn't work for my condition, it's useless. It's good for emergencies and surgeries and acute diseases. It sucks for subtle and chronic conditions. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 1:00:49 PM | Diva,
I believe in massage therapy. but ambivilant towards accupuncture.
When M. T. is used in co-ordinated efforts with modern medicine, the benefits are outstanding. Moreso than with either by themselves.
I became "interested" in massage from a book called " the art of sensual massage" at a younger age. what I have logically gleaned from this book and later study in O.R. technology (A.S. degree),seems to go glove on hand so to speak.
With accupunture, it does have promise to be a good tool for western to look into with further study perhaps. yes I said it.
But that would mean scietific method testing, along with more study/understanding of its physiology, not just anotomical perusal.
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 1:12:54 PM | Xzanthius,
I believe I may not be always conscious, but am ever conscientious.
The doctor in chinese medicine, if the pt. does not respond to treatment, 90% of the time will not refer them on because they would lose "face". Perhaps this is why one only pays when one get's healthy. That is if they live through past the end of "treatment". it would seem this fact may have illuded you. If not you "Overlooked" it.
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 1:28:24 PM | Xzanthius,
if it is a chronic condition, you have my empathy.
But as for "interconnected systems" you should read up on your biology, Anotomy and physiology,Psychiatry, et. al. books and not just preview the titles and pictures.
PLEASE do not mistake an opposing opinion as ignorance as you have just stated that of one having like me.
IF there was a cure for all disease, no one would ever die of anything. Even chronic maladies would not be around!
you say we are ignorant for not accepting your views on medicinal remedies/therapies and yet we do not, after seeing the results tested and bourne out, complain and insult you. the proof is in the pudding!!!!!!!!
dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 2:20:57 PM | | It's like they say:Truth is stranger than fiction. Einstien could not except the uncertainty principle. But unlike the paranormal, its got much more good laboratory evidence to back it up. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 2:26:40 PM |
The doctor in chinese medicine, if the pt. does not respond to treatment, 90% of the time will not refer them on because they would lose "face". Perhaps this is why one only pays when one get's healthy. That is if they live through past the end of "treatment". it would seem this fact may have illuded you. If not you "Overlooked" it.
Where in the world did you get that "fact"? In China both systems are practiced together - people to go Traditional medicine for chronic conditions and in emergency go to western, and many practitioners do both. There is not the same dualistic argument that there is here - at least from my impression since I don't actually live in China.
I'm not saying there needs to be one or the other, both should be practiced together. I have never ever heard of the kind of scenario you describe - in western medicine doctors would very rarely refer anyone to another kind of doctor outside of their system. Please cite if you're going to make a claim like that as I don't believe you. You also imply traditional "treatments" are dangerous!! They are rarely dangerous. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 3:07:06 PM | How quick are we to call something pseudoscience, when in truth we barely know enough about the human body to even begin to claim anything as pseudo or not.
Complementary Alternative Medicine, or CAM's for short, includes a wide range of medical practices. Several CAM's are founded in the Eastern Medical Philosophies that have been refining their practices for over 2500 years.
Many of these practices are considered pseudoscience by the mainstream Allopathic (Western Medicine) establishment. For several of these CAM's the stigma of pseudoscience is being grudgedly overturned by a biased Western medical science that is slowly gaining a greater understanding of how the human body works.
Allopathic medicine follows a different path toward treatment of disease in the human body than that of CAM's. Allopathic medicine, in a generalized perspective, subscribes to a model of Medicate, Radiate and Cut, to cure the ills of humanity, while CAM's generally subscribe to a preventive model of medicine to accomplish the same thing.
What should be understood is that BOTH medical philosophies have value and they should complement each other.
In this thread some seem to believe that acupuncture should be considered a pseudoscience.
What I would ask is whether many of you actually know how acupuncture works?
Acupuncture works within the understanding that the human body runs on electrical energy and this energy runs in lines or fields within our body.
For those of you who have an understanding of human anatomy I would ask this. From a Western Medical perspective, how would you say the human body functions? How are its processes run?
Although this is a rhetorical query, the point is that the knowledge and understanding is similar between East and West, but the focus of treatment is what is different.
Acupuncture sees energy, and its manipulation, in the human body as part of the cure, while Allopathic medicine has barely considered it up until recently.
This attitude in the West IS changing, and new research is combining the medical technologies of the West with philosophical practices from the east.
Prevention is the CAM models philosophy - and while Allopathic medicine claims it abides by the same beliefs I would seriously question a Medical paradigm that is governed by the Pharmaceutical and Insurance industries.
For years medical practices that went against the status quo of Western Medicine have been ostracized and called pseudoscience. Osteopaths, Chiropractic, Psychology all lay within the realm of mainstream health practices today, yet all three had been considered pseudoscience at one point and in some cloistered areas of society they still are.
Knowledge is the great equalizer (Author?), but prejudice and ignorance are the great dividers that squelch the quest for knowledge. It would behoove many of us to gain a greater understanding before we are so quick to judge.
Acupuncture and other CAM’s might not transplant a heart or create a vaccine for the latest flu virus, but they will help our body to become stronger thru prevention where maybe we won’t need that operation. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 4:12:59 PM | The bonus of an open mind is that one is able to actually percieve (entertain them) the avenues offered by non-western science.
For example.
Ayerveda, on the whole, not a great track record. Their remedies, unfortunately often contain toxic elements etc... but... their classification of the different food types and their effects on the body... GENIUS! (amungst other remarkable aspects)
The chinese system has a much better reputation (on a whole). I do agree that both medicines have their merits.
I don't have any particular health concerns myself. But if I did I would make my decision based on what I have. Obviously if I break my leg I would not rush to the accupuncturist. No, quite likely I will head to the hospital for an x-ray and a cast. But if I am tired all the time or have persistent reoccuring colds, I might consult my local wholistic practioner... and explore other options if the treatment does not produce results.
What should be understood is that BOTH medical philosophies have value and they should complement each other. --The Onus is On You
In China both systems are practiced together - people to go Traditional medicine for chronic conditions and in emergency go to western, and many practitioners do both. There is not the same dualistic argument that there is here - at least from my impression since I don't actually live in China. --Zedstead
^^^^
I've lived in Taiwan and it is much more integrated than here. (though not completely so... China is probably different)
Dale 09
I agree with you that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen as you put it. It is unfortunate but true. Kuddos to you for opening your mind. I am not a fanatic either. I just believe that there are many subtle things about the body that Western Science has yet to understand.
Palmistry, as far as I am concerned could be snake oil... here I said it. I still believe in it with all my heart but I understand how little actual evidence has been gathered up until now (which kind of excites me).
The Chinese Medical System is quite well accepted, being integrated in many ways right now with the western medical system. Some people for example, get operated upon without anethsesia (pardon my spelling and for constantly bringing up this example but they do it with people too!!!  ) | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 5:11:55 PM | HHMMMMM.... Massage Therapy........ would that include the "full release" type of massage therapy that you see advertised occasionally?
First off I have never advertised such a thing. Secondly, if I had a dollar for every ignorant SOB who made such a comment, I could probably retire.
I guess it is too much to ask of some people to respect my profession...
Yeah, you offended me...
I get tired of hearing this crap. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 422 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:05:41 PM | I guess it is too much to ask of some people to respect my profession...
It depends on the profession one has, I have no qualms about massage therapists as long as they don't make unfounded claims about it, i.e pseudo-science based"touch healing", and Reiki nonsense (or anything based an imaginary "energy" - qi).
I am disabled because of physiotherapy for what would have been a fixable shoulder if the "alternative" approach had the invalidity it deserves here in the west. Though I was first seen by a registered physiotherapist, my "treatment" was administered by a practitioner of Applied Kinesiology (an off-shoot of chiropractic pseudoscience).
The therapist would never give me any reasoned answers to my questions (unlike somebody trained in a science based medical treatment could), she finally admitted to me, after I referred to her as a "supposed qualified physiotherapist", that she was an AK practitioner.
Needless to say, after almost 6 months of being subjected to quackery without being told it wasn't "science based", I would have thrown my arms up in disgust if it wasn't for the fact that my right shoulder was now incapable of "up", permanently.
So, respecting professions? That depends, I have nothing but contempt for, the profession of Madison Ave. for example.
I do what works - pure and simple. Western medicine doesn't work for my condition, it's useless.
Is the "condition" one recognized as an illness by other than fringe medicine?
How quick are we to call something pseudoscience, when in truth we barely know enough about the human body to even begin to claim anything as pseudo or not. .
Ha! so let's base things on the imaginary in place of empirical data?
No thanks.
Knowledge is the great equalizer (Author?), but prejudice and ignorance are the great dividers that squelch the quest for knowledge
"Knowledge" based on "prejudice and ignorance " is worse than "not knowing", and for many reasons that should be obvious.
The bonus of an open mind is that one is able to actually percieve (entertain them) the avenues offered by non-western science.
As an "open mind" implies " no bias", it also excludes presupposition based on the law of parsimony, ...your definition contradicts this.
In China both systems are practiced together - people to go Traditional medicine for chronic conditions and in emergency go to western, and many practitioners do both. There is not the same dualistic argument that there is here - at least from my impression since I don't actually live in China.
*Only 15 - 20% of citizens of China use "traditional Chinese Medicine" at all, this large number is in spite of the priority of science/medicine that's been pushed here since the mid 50s.
Alternative medicine exists in the west, it always has. And, in spite of the lack of bona-fide scientific evidence of the various avenues of "treatment", it is still marketable due to the fact that people have different ways of ameliorating their credulity.
See:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/china_conference_1/
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/china_conference_2/ | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:06:53 PM | Woah, easy there....... No offense was intended, however it seems to me that if your "profession" has that many "pusedo-massage-therapists", that everybody makes fun of it, then it would behoove all in your "profession" to do what they could to clean up the image of the endeavor...................
EVERY profession has detractors and those that take every opportunity to denigrate them. If it has gotten you to the point where you are as touchy about it as you seem to be............ do what you can to change it, or change professions. Life is too short to hate what you do.
Paul K | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:36:53 PM | Onus,xzanthius, zedstead whomever...
I believe there should be some intertwining of most methods of "medicine" from the homeopathic, through to the psychological/psychiatric, and even preventative!
Someone wanted proof of the "saving face" aspect in chinese medicine. So, here is a prime example:
the "tallest woman in the world" is Chinese. She had a tumor around the pituitary gland
which caused the amazing growth in body size.
She went to her local Doctor, he tried herbal and western methods, but was well out of his depth in concerning this case.
He would not refer her on to any other doctor/specialist because of the loss of "face" principle so embedded in this Asian culture. Not only that, but no other doctor/specialist would see her because they would not want to create this dis-harmony within the ranks.
The saving grace is that some surgeons/medical person in the WEST became aware of her paradoxic situation. Not only that, they informed those with more experience with this type of megaly malody. these Specialists and surgeons were part of a "Doctors' without borders" type of organization. they decided who cares about saving face when you could possibly save a life.
to make a long DOCUMENTED CASE short, they operated and SAVED her LIFE!
she is contacted every so often, to keep up on her case to this day.
AS I STATED the PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.
IF you do not understand the history of a people/country, how can you say they have a better way. As for western vs eastern philosophy/ methodologies- cause every "body" is different and as such so are their ways of life- i believe that it is more a case of interpretatation of terms/language used to describe a thing that keeps us WORLDWIDE, from understanding another method other than what we are familiar with. Thus drawing us into a tower of Babel situation, because noone understands the terms used to describe or ask the question in the others' "Language" in order to get their point across.
it is these unfamiliarities which up the the levels difficulties/ blocks the "Knowledge" from being Universally understood,and ofttimes used.
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:42:19 PM | xzatheus,
Do you believe every thing you read? do you believe everything you hear? do you believe everything you read ? do you believe everything that was ever concieved in the history of mankind?
IF so then do not talk further on anything, anywhere, anytime. for you will inherit the wind!
Dale | |
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