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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:45:24 PM |
Is too hot: Non sequitor much? Psdeudoscience is a disparaging umbrella term where every hack-kneed claim is included along with time tested practices so yes... there are qualifyers
xzanthus, what you wrote was a technical non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with my opinion of acupuncture. You wrote that there are some pseudosciences that actually have a basis or some such claptrap. Don't you see that if anything has basis, it cannot be a pseudoscience? It would qualify as an open topic but not as a pseudoscience.
Now my question has to change to "do you read much?".
One way you might know that acupuncture is working is that the animal will allow surgery to happen without anesthesia.
You have evidence for that?
BTW, I went to the AVMA website and could find no official policy statement by them. What you posted is an excerpt of a veterinarian who practices acupuncture and merely stated that.
Again, do you read much? Do you have any investigative skills? Do you feel comfortable posting half-truths and, at times, outright lies here?
Anesthesia without dangerous drugs... we should be more interested.
You first. I insist.
What falsifiable information can one glean from palmistry? IQ, health, general disposition.
This is what I was looking for. Within what parameters can you determine IQ? Plus of minus how many points and which IQ test would your divinance match? What health conditions can you diagnose through palmistry? What level of development would you recognize?
Why don't you use your power of google and open your own mind?
Just because you can believe everything you read on the internet. Uh-huh. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:22:07 PM | Is too hot...
You wrote that there are some pseudosciences that actually have a basis or some such claptrap. Don't you see that if anything has basis, it cannot be a pseudoscience?
Of course the problem arrises when it does have a basis and it is rejected or ignored. I read plenty, ad hominem much? Many disciplines remain points of contention.
You first. I insist.
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nem056v1
http://www.medicalacupuncture.com/aama_marf/journal/vol12_1/anesthesia.html
http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Articlespdf/Acupuncture%20Assisted%20Anesthesia.pdf
There are many many more.
The consensus (and I made a mistake) accupuncture appears to be a more reliable anelgesic than anesthetic. The principle is the same.
The reason that you found nothing on the American Veterian's Website is that accupuncture is still considered a 'pseudoscience' by many people. Which is why we are even talking about it.
Palmistry is 100x more 'out there' than accupuncture but here goes.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,900940,00.html
Apparently down's syndrom children have this particular formation where their head and heart line are one.
There are others but I am getting sleepy.
Just because you can believe everything you read on the internet. Uh-huh.
I do practice discernment and try to choose from a wide variety of sources. But hey... not everyone is perfect like me. 
Regarding palmistry it might be a good idea just to start assessing if there is ANY indication of coorelation. It should be significantly higher than chance. I will have to ponder that part of it. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:44:16 PM | It depends on the profession one has, I have no qualms about massage therapists as long as they don't make unfounded claims about it
I, nor any my colleagues make unsubstantiated claims. I never promise a "cure", I tell a client that if the problem is musculature, then massage therapy may be beneficial. To promise such a claim, goes against our training and ethics. Not to say their aren't unscrupulous therapists out there, but one may find them in any field...
Rarely have I met a doctor who will guarantee a "cure", for a disease or a condition. That is why they have you sign those little waiver forms pre-surgery. And if a doctor did guarantee such a thing, I would find a new one...most doctors say, "We should get you to feeling much better"...listen to their languaging, we have a similar code of ethics, albeit doctors have far more responsibility and more expensive insurance.
I am disabled because of physiotherapy for what would have been a fixable shoulder if the "alternative" approach had the invalidity it deserves here in the west.
I am unfamiliar with your whole story, but if you believe that your shoulder disability was a direct result of the therapy you received, then you should have reported them to the board, and...gasp, dare I say sued her for malpractice and have her license revoked.
Before I was a massage therapist, I was a cardiovascular technician and an LPN. It is not like I haven't done my time in the medical field. I don't deify doctors, but neither do discount their work. I know many doctors who believe in integrative medicine as do I.
Woah, easy there....... No offense was intended, however it seems to me that if your "profession" has that many "pusedo-massage-therapists", that everybody makes fun of it, then it would behoove all in your "profession" to do what they could to clean up the image of the endeavor...................
We have tried and in many cases have succeeded...it is not us who perpetuate the myth that massage therapists are little more than prostitutes...it is people like you. Where I come from we have to have stringent credentials, a certification process through successful completion a of a national exam, and a license as well as insurance. Oh, and an education.
If it has gotten you to the point where you are as touchy about it as you seem to be............ do what you can to change it, or change professions. Life is too short to hate what you do
Oh, please. I am changing it right now, by letting you know that your comment was distasteful and stems from ignorance.
I absolutely love the work that I do. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:05:27 PM |
I read plenty,
With comprehension?
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nem056v1
From the article: "There are some drawbacks, however: (i) anesthesia produced by acupuncture has individual variations and (ii) too much time is needed to induce anesthesia. For these reasons, investigations of acupuncture analgesia in preference to acupuncture anesthesia accelerated in the latter half of the 1980s."
Moreover, where anesthesia was investigated, acupuncture was supplemented with drug therapy.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.com/aama_marf/journal/vol12_1/anesthesia.html
From the link: "Acupuncture does not produce a true anesthesia in any form; it does, however, have a profound analgesic effect and produces sedation.2,8,13-18"
http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Articlespdf/Acupuncture%20Assisted%20Anesthesia.pdf
From the link: "Most often, when anesthesiologists do incorporate acupuncture into the anesthetic procedure, they enhance the sedative and analgesic effects with pharmaceuticals.9 This is especially important to consider in veterinary medicine. That is, there is no true “acupuncture anesthesia” -- only analgesia."
The consensus (and I made a mistake) accupuncture appears to be a more reliable anelgesic than anesthetic. The principle is the same.
Ah, such a wee bit of a mistake, isn't it? The principle is the same but the magnitued is shockingly different. Compare a bonfire with a firestorm, for example. Again, a half-truth.
Don't you get it yet? Telling you the truth about your sloppy logic and posts is not an ad hominem. It just took me ten minutes to review the URLs you posted as evidence only to find out that you didn't take the trouble to read them. Sorry, guy, you may fancy yourself knowledgeable but you need to hone your rational skills.
Apparently down's syndrom children have this particular formation where their head and heart line are one.
Again, ya gots any evidence for this one? For honesty's sake, produce something believable.
I am getting sleepy.
How can you tell?
Regarding palmistry it might be a good idea just to start assessing if there is ANY indication of coorelation. It should be significantly higher than chance.
Once again for everyone: Correlation does not necessarily indicate Causation. Memorize that.
Moreover, you have been so nebulous about what palmistry does that it would have a perfect correlation with anything you said. I'll clue you in on something. A perfectly random distribution of datapoints has a perfect correlatio of 1.
I will have to ponder that part of it.
You do that but I would have prefered you doing that before, not after, you wrote it.
Sweet dreams! | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:22:39 PM | Correlation is a good place to START, but it is far from adequate.
For palmistry to be scientific it must have consistent methodology [a scientific one] and precise definitions. Any correlations must then be statistically significant and meaningful. Scientifically tested causal links would be helpful, though not essential.
Generally, 50% correlation is far from adequate.
Correlating Down's syndrome with palm lines - fairly meaningless at the moment, since there are plenty of other features associated with the syndrome, and I've seen no indication that palmistry is used to diagnose such conditions, nor that any particular condition is associated with this palm feature regardless of trisomy 21.
The value of accupuncture remains to be fully tested. Some of it has been tested and found to have validity and a probably mechanism of action. Some of it is still in the realm of pseudo-science and unsubstantiated claims.
It is not the field of endeavour which is panned. It is the methodologies which are associated with them. Lack of statistics, lack of correlations, lack of definitions, grandiose claims, claims of persecution, are just a few of the symptoms of an endeavor being "pseudo" rather than science.
What I would love to see is a real study comparing short and long term outcomes from patients going through Western Medicine and Traditional Chinese Medicine, both using their full array of diagnostic and therapeutic techniques. I wouldn't know how close the numbers would be on who would be helped, but I'd put money down that more people would be harmed by Western Medicine
Possible, but doubtful. Traditional medicines include a lot of undosed "medicinal" plants. Unlike "western" medicine, the actual dosage and mix of active compounds is unknown and inconsistent. Plenty of people have been killed or harmed by the use of so-called "herbal" or "natural" medications. The problem in this case is an appeal to nature fallacy.
Secondly, plenty of people have been harmed via witholding of "western" medical treatment.
Third, there are several statistics to look at: Billions of people use traditional medicine, so the raw numbers are bound to be high. In terms of percentages treated, it may be different. Modern medicine may harm or kill a higher percentage of treated patients, relative to traditional medicines, but the percentage of success is likely much higher. If all the same patients were treated by traditional methods, the death rate by treatment might be lower, but the death rate DESPITE or in lieu of treatment would be much higher. Statistics are easy to spin, and to suggest that modern medicine is more harmful on this basis is a clear and common fallacy of statistical abuse. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:12:54 PM | Ha! so let's base things on the imaginary in place of empirical data?
And why would you want to do that? I am certainly not implying that so why would you?
Acupuncture focuses on energy fields in the body. Western Medical philosophy stresses the chemical processes in the body.
Here is the connection. For each and every chemical reaction within the body there is an electrical action that accompanys it.
This is a matter of perspective. To see only from the chemical processes of metabolism is to ignore the electrical or energy processes. You cannot have one without the other.
All cellular function in the human body consists of electro-chemical processes. I was taught this in a Western Medical University. What we are entertaining in exploring Eastern Medicine is another perspective, another point of view. Is one better than another? In some yes, others no, but that would be missing the point entirely. What parts can we take from both philosophies that will make a greater whole.
"Knowledge" based on "prejudice and ignorance " is worse than "not knowing", and for many reasons that should be obvious.
And arrogance of ones knowledge reveals their ignorance.
A friend of mind on this site mentions this quote occasionally.
The problem with mankind is not that we are ignorant, rather that we are arrogant to what we think we know, and apathetic to our own greatness. (bjm)
There are times I find it appropos. | |
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 432 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:23:11 PM | It's like the person in a lobby repeatedly jabbing the elevator button, when the elevator does arrive they're pleased with themselves for having hurried it along...
Pseudoscience attempts to explain how something works without confirming that it, or evidence of it; works/exists in the first place, science is somewhat the opposite; it also adds the further byproducts of a valid research avenue: If "A" does exist and this is how it works, we should expect to see "X" if we add these other variables.
The "X" leads to more understanding in more ways than speculation based on bronze-age and older scopes of understanding (that attribute causality to "because I said so"), which haven't been shown to exist ("A") and don't produce confirmable ("Xs") knowledge.
Traditional medicines include a lot of undosed "medicinal" plants. Unlike "western" medicine, the actual dosage and mix of active compounds is unknown and inconsistent.
Using "medicinal" plants is actually the basis of modern pharmacology, the big difference is that "modern pharmacology" (barring greed-based fudged data), adheres to standards of proof that didn't exist in the days before iron tools.
Acupuncture focuses on energy fields in the body.
By what means do we detect the existence of these fields before "focusing" on them?
And arrogance of ones knowledge reveals their ignorance
How more arrogant can you get than exaggerating the importance of something not shown to exist other than speculated causality (that hasn't been shown to exist) and not verifiable by effects "because I said so"?
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:45:23 PM |
Is the "condition" one recognized as an illness by other than fringe medicine?
HAHAHA. What is the point of writing anything on here if you don't read it? Why would they investigate something that would require extensive testing? I have muscle weakness that has gotten worse my whole life, it is obvious and plain to everybody. I've seen many, many western doctors BEFORE I saw any alternative therapists and I still see a specialist when I can. But I don't do it for me, I go for them - so they can observe and scratch their heads and wonder what the f is going on. Oh but sorry - I said they did nothing but in fact they did harm. They gave me a totally useless operation when I was a kid that made half of my foot numb for about five years. There was never anything wrong with my sensory nerves to begin with, but they took a piece anyway. They cut my muscle just to see if it would do anything. Needless to say it didn't, but it was a miserable, painful and horrible experience.
Why do you believe a study you read somewhere? Why do you pick that instead of the study that shows something else? I lived with someone while they were studying traditional chinese medicine and it was insanely rigorous - equal to any medical degree but just 3 years. They also studied microbiology, anatomy and all the basics of western medicine. Dale - your accusation is against a Chinese doctor for cultural reasons. The reality of TCM in the West is the practitioners are often Westerners to begin with, or Chinese immigrants, and as to what each doctor does in such situations is their own choice, and has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of TCM as a form of medicine.
The dismissal of other cultural forms of medicine is ethnocentric. The fact that people have replaced their own brains with scientific dogma that they read only from approved journals is pointless arguing against. Dogmatic arrogance, and the more I read of this the more I see how Science really is the new religion of the West, complete with its fundamentalists. Thank god our world is becoming more multicultural, and these attitudes will be worn away by those who understand the breadth and vastness of humanity across the whole world, and not the narrow slice that is materialism.
I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly
that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul,
to the deep emotional self
and the wounds to the soul take a long, long time,
only time can help and patience,
and a certain difficult repentance
long difficult repentance, realization of life’s mistake,
and the freeing oneself
from the endless repetition of the mistake
which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify.
--D. H. Lawrence
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:50:37 PM | I don't know about this acupuncture stuff, but I have something to say about reflexology...... Ever receive a great foot massage ?
I swear, I would pass on a Tom Petty concert and a bowl of mint chocolate chip ice cream for a professional foot massage any day, thank you very much.
Okay.... maybe I wouldn't pass on the Tom Petty concert..... but you get my point. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 435 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 11:30:37 PM | I have muscle weakness that has gotten worse my whole life, it is obvious and plain to everybody.
This is a symptom, not an "illness".
Why would they investigate something that would require extensive testing?
This may be the way most fringe medicine works but mainstream medicine usually involves a diagnosed illness.
What is the name of this illness? "muscle weakness"?
The dismissal of other cultural forms of medicine is ethnocentric.
Nonsense, ethnic or cultural origin doesn't play a part in differentiating between science and pseudoscience, the process does.
Dogmatic arrogance
dogma
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
arrogant
adjective
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities
Science is falsifiable, pseudoscience is not, one of these is "exaggerated sense of" - "importance or abilities ".
If the shoe fits...?
"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.
"There isn't any," said the March Hare.
~ Lewis Carroll/Charles Dodgson | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/10/2009 11:55:52 PM | I am certain that a lot of people on this forum have read what you have written that your symptoms are, and are ready with lots of diagonsis.... I will avoid that route. I do have a comment to make on an assertion that you made... You stated that the study of tradtitional chinese medicine was very rigourous and...........
"equal to any medical degree but just 3 years."
When I was in college, at a prestigous university that was linked to a top 10 medical school/hospital, I was pre-med my first two years. Now, during those two years I took biology, microbiology, anatomy, embreology, phisiology, chemistry, physics, and that was in my first two and a half years. My reality was that I could do no better than a 2.7 gpa. Not bad considering the load, but no where near what was necessary to get into med school, so I changed majors. I still had lots of friends who stayed the course, and attended med school. From them, I learned that med school was even harder, and more intense, more grinding than under grad ever was. Which brings me to my problem with the statement that you made, and I copy/pasted above.
Three years of "insanely rigourous" study in the western medicine tradition doesn't even get you IN MED SHCOOL, much less finish it, and after you get the 4 year degree, it gets HARDER. If you were trying to impress just how much traditional chinese medicine encompasses, I am afraid you have failed. The 3 years of insanely rigourous study, doesn't even get you out of UNDER GRAD school. And then, after med school, there is how many more years of on the job training.............
I am sorry, but traditional chinese medicine may have its place, but to compare it on a scholastic basis to western medicine is a joke. If what you are trying to say is that somehow a person studying traditional chinese medicine can aquire the same knowledge in 3 years as a person studying western medicine who takes EIGHT years to get to the beginning of the end.............. well, you lost me.
I do feel empathy for anyone in a situation where they don't know what the problem is, and thereby can't fix it, but if it was me, I would go the western route. It sounds like you have had very bad luck in picking the practioners who helped you. Could be due to where you are, as larger cities have teaching hospitals that specialize in research, and are looking for cases such as yours, but you already know that.
Best of luck.
Paul K | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:18:52 AM |
By what means do we detect the existence of these fields before "focusing" on them?
A little history from the University of Nevada.
This site will give you some information on the concepts and the basic science behind energy research. Please feel free to follow the link provided.
Differences in Human Energy Fields
Geoffrey K. Leigh, Ph.D., Southern Area Specialist
Catherine D. Leigh, Student, University Of Nevada, Las Vegas
Karen A. Polonko, Ph.D., Professor, Old Dominion University
History of Energy Field Research
The interest and research into human energy fields has a long history in Eastern cultures, where health, well-being, medicine, and self-defense are defined in relation to the flow of energy (Judith, 1996). There
also has been work done in the West over the past 200 years with different investigations and practices (Brennan, 1987). More recently, such concepts are incorporated into research and practice within Western medicine and views of health (Gerber, 1988; Shealy & Myss, 1993). The work on human energy fields has included interest in energy around the body (the aura), energy running through channels within the body (the meridians, used in acupuncture), or around the chakras, a type of energy transformer from more subtle to more dense energies or the reverse.
http://www.unce.unr.edu/publications/files/hn/2003/fs0368.pdf
Here is another on measuring energy fields with references.
http://twm.co.nz/SubtleEnergy.html
I understand the cynical attitude with regard to this field of medical science. This is not our parents medicine. If you haven't reviewed the research how would you know any different.
To use a cliche, this is the cutting edge of research. Energy healing (In its various forms) and Consciousness studies. There are some wonderful discoveries in these fields of study that will be presented in the next couple of years. Watch the news.
In the interim, take some time and read a little. Hope you enjoy. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:19:09 AM | When it comes to medicine, what's considered pseudoscience and what's not is a fine line. There are some forms of homeopathy that are based on learned sciences (past and present) and the proofs lie in their history of usage and the ailments they actually cured/alleviated.
Aloe vera speeds up the healing process of cuts/burns.
Chiropractors can alleviate bone/muscular pains and misallignments.
Massages can alleviate aching muscles.
Etc.
But obviously rubbing a quartz crystal around your belly button to cure lung cancer and fend off the evil spirits that caused the cancer is pseudoscience.
There's a big difference.
Perhaps there may be something to this acupuncture thing..... as it is scientifically understood that electrolytes control muscular activity. And perhaps sticking a needle into a muscle may trigger said electrolytes or some other neuroelectric stimulation. And perhaps not.
But until there is peer reviewed scientifically documented data proving this hypotheses (thus changing it from a pseudoscience to a real science), I'll stick to a good old fashioned massage to temporarily relieve my aching muscles. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 439 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:51:29 AM | In the interim, take some time and read a little. Hope you enjoy.
You quoted nothing that implies that "qi" or its analog exists as defined, and there's nothing in this article that touches on this either. I tried to track back from this article via sources, which of the cited references in the artical contains the proof of the existence of "qi", et al?
I know that we generate electrical fields, I know they can be detected, however are you asserting that a modernized form of Kirlian photography (and speculations) is a credible cite for the existence and causality of "qi" as defined by TCM?.
A pseudoscience proving a pseudoscience?
Surely one can do better than this. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 1:53:54 AM | Interesting that we're sitting here talking about "traditional Chinese medicine" and I can't help but wonder why some people would say such positive things about it when the Chinese themselves are scrambling to get their hands on the much more effective Western , scientific medicine some so seem to despise.
I'm here in China and access to Western Medicine is limited at best. In some areas it's prolific but in much of this country it's still the old medicine cabinet trying to relieve the ills. Rest assured , if you've got a headache , you want a couple of Motrin or Tylenol. You can try the "traditional" medicine if you want and it can occasionally prove effective but seriously , you're better to have some Advil shipped in at some crazy inflated price. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 4:39:13 AM | ^^^^
Jeebus!
Did I ever say that Chinese Medicine was the best form of medicine ever!!! Of course people want options. Did I ever say that Western Medicine was an evil plauge upon the world?
You guys will exagerate, distort and twist...
Another interesting perspective to read about it Cuba. Who has been forced (due to sanctions) to rely much upon alternative therapies, to generally good effect. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 6:55:54 AM | xzanthuis,
Anesthetic, analgesic are the same in principle?????;
IF so, then next time you need to get any operation- take two aspirin for the pain you feel when the scalpal or, if an ortho op., the reciprocating drill, rongeuers,bone scrapers, files, rasps, or any other instrument is applied. And , as per YOUR assertion, you won't feel a thing!
Oh, and if you get a Headache, do yourself a favor -go for the FULL LOBOTOMY opti on. You won't feel anything , at all, forever, according to the grounds of the premise you assert!
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 8:01:46 AM |
You quoted nothing that implies that "qi" or its analog exists as defined,
Energy fields are "qi".
You can lead them to water, but you can't make them drink.
Remember that comment on knowledge and predjudice? I believe it applies now.
Good luck. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 10:00:54 AM |
"Why would they investigate something that would require extensive testing?"
This may be the way most fringe medicine works but mainstream medicine usually involves a diagnosed illness.
What is the name of this illness? "muscle weakness"?
THEY - WESTERN MEDICINE. Western Medicine doesn't have a diagnosis because they don't know enough about this kind of disease. As I said, the SPECIALIST IN WESTERN MEDICINE told me that a patient has a 50/50 chance of getting a diagnosis when they come into their clinic. It has been almost been diagnosed as Spinal Muscular Atrophy and a few other things but it doesn't fit any of the NAMES of diseases which ARE CLASSIFICATIONS OF SYMPTOMS, look it up. I WAS NOT diagnosed by alternative medicine and alternative medicine is NOT who did all of this testing. Cripes. It wasn't me who went in asking for them, my parents took me in when I was a kid cause I wasn't walking right, they're looking at me (WESTERN MEDICINE in case you forget what I'm talking about) trying to figure it out, shrugging their shoulders. Again, medical file - an inch thick.
dogma
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
And then you go on to explain your dogma, thanks for clarifying. The scientific method is your dogma. Life experience is mine. End of story. You follow scientists who tell you what the method is, even though it is not agreed upon what system of inquiry works best for what is being tested. I am saying USE WHAT WORKS. You're saying, NO listen to these studies that can be interpreted many ways and have been conducted in a biased way about something unfamiliar to us! Whatever. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 11:09:56 AM | Hi Xzan
One of the things that really irks me to no end, is when someone, always with an agenda, pulls out the "Poor me, I am Cuba, and the big bad American capitalists are sanctioning us, so that is why we are a shithole" card. How can that be if the only country sanctioning poor 'ol Cuba is the USA? Can it be that they are the cause of their problems?
And, further, I think that the sanction is silly at best, stupid at worst. IF the US really wanted to help the folks in cuba, we would remove sanctions, and let American goods and services flow to Cuba, because as they say, its hard to keep them on the farm once they've seen the lights of the big city. The only reason the sanction is there is because of political pressure by Cuban ex-pats who live here. THAT is one thing I've never understood, because once the poor down trodden pipples of Cuba get a taste of "stuff" and freedom, it WILL change.
Sorry to be a little off subject, but I was just "retorting".
Paul K | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 11:17:06 AM | Hi Xzan
Just one more thing on the "generally good effect" that forced sanctions forcing reliance on alternative therapies theory. The way I see it, is like if I just discovered penecilin, and the generally good effect was a vast improvement over what I had before, which was nothing, and someone else had an MRI to see what was really wrong internally, and then had the capability to perform modern precedures to alleviate the problem.
Yes, the pencillin will always have a generally good effect, but it has limits, and when the rest of the world is way ahead..................... well, I know where I would want my health care dispensed to me.
Paul K | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:53:18 PM | Xzan, zed,
I would GLADLY engage you in a battle of WITS. BUT I hate anhilating DEFENSELESS people!!!
There is just absolutely no SPORT in it
OH, and by the way, Since you Believe most/ all of everything you read with out due evidence, just take my word on it! WOULD I STEER YOU WRONG?
Dale | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 1:09:14 PM | | ^^ If it's not a battle of wits it's a battle of study quoting and evidence finding. Of which there is obviously plenty on both sides, or this debate would not be happening. Anyway you're taking my point and turning it around. I was accusing those who reject a therapy out of hand because they READ it doesn't work. My point is most of the people open to it have TRIED it, or at least read the information FROM the side of the people who practice it and who know what it is. Obviously there is a great deal I don't believe that has been written, since that same writing is what you've read that you believe!!! Why don't you believe chinese medicine works? Because you READ IT SOMEWHERE. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:05:02 PM | I would GLADLY engage you in a battle of WITS. BUT I hate anhilating DEFENSELESS people!!!
There is just absolutely no SPORT in it!
I would gladly engage you , especially if you keep picking on zed and xzanth.
I am feeling particularly scrappy...
It would be a coin toss as to who would win, and I call heads, which I might win, since pseudoscience might support this belief (have you tossed a coin ten times and had a fifty-fifty result? I haven't), however probability will not. And it should be noted, that probability does not necessarily predict the outcome of a situation. Neither does pseudoscience. Probability can narrow it down through more information and research (not to mention more variables), but the same can be said for pseudoscience (although pseudoscience seems to widen, after the addition of other variables...opposite ends of the spectrum...I am grateful to see a lot of people trying to meet in the middle here).
The coin would have to be tossed by a third party, who does not hold a confirmation bias to the outcome of the coin toss.
Edit post: Probability comprised with a predicted outcome will result in an ingenious claim. But the same could be said of study of pseudoscience...with all information and equations being equal, information and equations (disclaimer, I am not talking about math here}, are subject to defining interpretations. Each can substantiate their own reasons for their perception.
I love these type of discussions...I learn a lot.
Because if I did the coin toss, I could think about winning, and my nervous system/musculature responses, might possibly support my desire to win, and therefore influence my action of tossing the coin. It wouldn't be conscious or anything, but I would suspect that you would go in with the same desire to win a coin toss. I never underestimate the subconscious. And I don't use "never" lightly.
And late™, offered excellent points, in the form of critical thought, by the way...
where is he... | |
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