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 Author Thread: Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
 Paul K

Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 451
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:32:46 PM
Hi Zed

Try to think of it this way. Chinese "medicinal" practices are like when penecillin was first invented, and they haven't progressed. Modern "Western" medicine is what it is today; robotic surgeries, problems getting fixed today that people had to live with just a generation or two ago, MRI's, medicines that are more and more specific to what ails you, surgical procedures tha boggle the mind with their precision and effects, on and on.

Its not that what they do is bad........ it is just, well, way in the past, techincally speaking. The chinese doctors are performing surgeries today that they learned not from their old practitioners, but from WESTERN MEDICAL UNIVERSITIES. I think that is great, as I am sure that they have taken the surgical art a step forward too. BUT, what have they given us........... long needles and massage? I watched a procedure whereby the chinese doctor heated small bulbs, put them on a persons back, and as the air cooled, it formed a strong suction, and that was supposed to draw out toxins. Really, no joke, they really believed that would work............... I really would like to see how accupuncture can cure an appendix that is about to burst............... How did the chinese deal with such things before western medicine taught them how? And don't even tell me that accupuncture can be used instead of anesthegia.

I personally think that chinese medicine has its place, but in terms of efficacy, it is nowhere near modern western medicine. I have a friend who is a spinal surgery specialist, and they are to the point now where they can actually use man made material grafted to the spine that encourages very fast growth.............. I really doubt that the chinese had any clue that could even be done.

Paul K
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 452
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:51:22 PM
RE Msg: 440 by Funcuz:
Interesting that we're sitting here talking about "traditional Chinese medicine" and I can't help but wonder why some people would say such positive things about it when the Chinese themselves are scrambling to get their hands on the much more effective Western , scientific medicine some so seem to despise.
I'm here in China and access to Western Medicine is limited at best. In some areas it's prolific but in much of this country it's still the old medicine cabinet trying to relieve the ills. Rest assured , if you've got a headache , you want a couple of Motrin or Tylenol. You can try the "traditional" medicine if you want and it can occasionally prove effective but seriously , you're better to have some Advil shipped in at some crazy inflated price.
There's a very good reason for that.

Western medicine has evolved with a sort of "puncuated equilibrium". It has advanced rarely, usually because some physician discovered something by accident, and often the physician was an independent, who was not part of the main medical establishment, like Jenner. However, Western society in the last 500 years has had two main things that worked for its benefit. First, when a new medical treatment had been discovered, they shared their discovery with other doctors in the West that the discoverer knew, and they shared this same discovery with the other doctors that they knew, until 90% of doctors in the West all knew of the discovery. So although discoveries are quite rare, what is discovered, is known by many doctors, if not most, and nearly every doctor knows of every medical discovery up to the last 15 years ago. The second, is that when a new medical treatment is found, there have been LOTS of people willing to produce it en masse, to sell it for as much as they could get for it. In the beginning, when it is first discovered, only a few rich people can afford it. But as more and more rich people buy it, the price comes down, and eventually, it gets cheap enough that everyone can afford it, and that guarantees an industry that produces thousands of these treatments for a small price. So capitalism and collaboration have both ensured that medical discoveries are shared and made known to nearly all doctors, and medical treatments are shared and made available to nearly all people. These 2 things have allowed the few discoveries that we have, to be available to billions, and to be able to be administered by every doctor who treats those billions. As a result, there is very little headway in a field like curing smallpox, for hundreds of years, but when one country doctor like Jenner discovers a vaccine to protect against it, it becomes made known and available to everyone in the West, in only a few decades, and suddenly, everyone has it.

If China had that model of spreading medical discoveries, and of producing medical treatments, then all the special treatments that each Chinese doctor alone knows, would be spread right throughout China, and would be available right throughout China. But as it stands, it seems to me that they just didn't yet have that model for Chinese medicine, and still don't, but rather, that it's an art that can only be discerned by an individual doctor. It seems to me that if any doctor of Chinese medicine discovers a special way of treating patients, one that would make him far better at healing, and would garner him far more money from his patients, then he is apt to keep it from himself. The other thing that occurs to me, is that Chinese doctors prepare their own medicines, and so it is not so much in their interest to hand such preparations over to another company like the West did with apothecaries, because that would lose them a lot of revenue. So they keep it in-house, and that means that medicines for standard problems like headaches are not mass-produced. But it is entirely possible that if doctors of Chinese medicine would elect to share ALL their discoveries with each other, and turn over their medical preparations for standard treatments over for mass production, then they would gain the same advantages that we see in Western medicine, at least for standard complaints and illnesses.
 zedstead

Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 453
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:17:05 PM
Paul K

Thanks for talking to me as though I don't know anything at all, and have no critical thinking skills. As I've already actually undergone the very therapies you describe, from eastern, and western, I am making my opinions based on my experience, and many books I've read on health over the last twenty years. You don't need to educate me on the ways of each system, as I've spent a great deal of time with the practitioners of each.

Given the world being what it is now, with transportation and the sharing of information spreading knowledge far and wide, the smart system would use ALL of the different therapies that have been shown to be efficacious, either anecdotally or through testing. Provided a therapy is not dangerous, ALL information about the possibility of how and why it might work should be given to the patient. Information means that more people will try different modalities from different systems and this is as it should be. Western medicine should be available, should be properly explained and should NOT be in control of other therapies which rely on different views of the body.

I have been to what you might call "quacks" before - and this is my definition of one. It is someone who pretends to know what they're doing when they don't, who witholds information from the patient, and who doesn't make them aware of their options. Basically someone who doesn't admit when they don't know. And to this the quacks are alive and well in all medicine, western, eastern and otherwise.
 Dale 09

Joined: 5/21/2009
Msg: 454
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:18:29 PM
Diva,

My apoligies to you. If Zed and Xzanthius were not the ones going on impressions they have on something they read as at least one of them has stated AND touting them as irrefutable fact, then I would be the one with the" barrel" of water spilled on me. and in effect an affect be all wet.

And as for Whom is picking on Whom, both have Been Asked several times by several people for proof of their pet beliefs/ impressions. All they have is what some fringe arguementists have implied and have thrown down on the rest of us, their scorn for not being "Open Minded" enough to just take their word on it.

I sympathise, and empathise with you on the few " masseurs, masseusses" that take a good tool of totally true medicinal value in treatment that therapeutic massage has and take it to the redlight district for a few bucks in their pocket.

I do believe that there are things/treatments of the fringes that can be beneficial but to just take someones' word that it works is just asking too much of people to put the persons future health in extreme jeopardy. Remember western science/medicine used to use leeches for bleeding the illness/ malady out of the body because they took someones' word on it, and it grew out of proportion to the logical ethical and rational use for it. and when it was being used for any ill , though it has true modern uses, was too much to for anyone to bear.

with MUCH well earned respect,

Dale
 Paul K

Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 455
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:31:19 PM
Hi Zed

Having been through several medical "issues" with various family members, whenever I see someone with a medical issue, I always try to think back and see if it was anything similar to that which I have had experience with. My motive for writing what I do, at least as far as your case is concerned, is that maybe, just maybe, there is something that I can say that might jog something in either your mind or someone elses that might help you.

If you read ALL of my posts concerning you, I have never made any guess as to what your particular problem is, as I know that would be futile. I do have a former brother in law that is whithering away as a result of ALS, so I know a bit about that. My reason for writing is on the outside chance that somebody may have some idea that might help. I understand your frustrations with medicine, in general, not being able to find out what your specific problem is; if it was me, I would be gong crazy, you seem to be holding up well.

Please don't take anything I write as disparaging, or in a negative light, as that is not the case at all. When I write what I do concerning chinese "medicine", it is becasue I don't know the breadth and depth of what you have gone through and experienced, and my motive is that I hate to see people vest their time and energy in things that don't work. I try to be pragmatic, and always look to see who has the best odds of "fixing" the problem, and start there, but then thats me.

Don't give up, as you never know when the next Salk will come along.

Paul K
 Paul K

Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 456
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:35:06 PM
Hi Scorpio

I had a great history teacher that once told me that the reason for the explosion in knowledge was a result of information being generally available to all. I think you said the same thing, but much more eloquently. That having been said, imagine what was in the library in Alexandria.... before it was destroyed.

Paul K
 zedstead

Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 457
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:51:24 PM
^^ I appreciate your concern. I think when someone has had a condition like mine, and already been through all of the avenues of medicine - by the way it is extensive enough that I am trying to write it all out, and possibly publish - it gets frustrating to be told that I don't know what's going on. I've had people get excited when they think they can help - this goes for all kinds of health practitioners, but I myself rarely get excited. Instead it is a matter of health maintenance that is important - and in that respect, western medicine is a dead end. That's simply a fact, there is absolutely nothing they have to offer - except the tests, for which I now have all the information about myself they can possibly give me that most people don't get to know. It is interesting, and I take all information from all sources - I don't judge them based on their background, I just take it in.

At this point the most solace I get is from therapies that are way beyond scientific medicine. They are also totally harmless - and totally "unproven". But I get ALOT out of it, a huge amount, and it has benefited my life dramatically. It is the reason I haven't gone crazier than I have. Emotional, spiritual HEALING is what the world needs, and it is different than "curing". It took me a looong time to get myself to the point where I was open enough to try things that I would've thought were too weird. This is because I was brainwashed by our culture into thinking it couldn't be true. This attitude that I see on here - that things like energy medicine, spiritual healing, channelling etc. are "woo woo" and quackery and not worth investigating - is totally in the past, it's where I've come from and what I'm letting go of. It was a long road to get rid of those prejudices, although I have always been more open than average, I don't like anyone to tell me what to think. In an ideal world I would have been presented with these options when I was much younger, but I had to get by the current western bias. I'm thankful I did.
 Dale 09

Joined: 5/21/2009
Msg: 458
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:36:09 AM
Zed,

I am one that agrees that there are ancient or forgotten or "lost" to time agents that can and do work. For what they can do for certain ailments does vary from person to person ( each "body" is different).

That being said, I am more concerned about what the"doctor", in any field of medicine, explains as to how well it works for most and for what conditions it is proven to help. Whether it be in maintenance, or healing or cure.

I had a "closed Head injury" in '88 in the military, that unknowingly took 20 years to totally incapacitate me emotionally and mentally. when they took an MRI of the brain, they outright told me that- "parts of your brain are dead."

It has been 10 years since then, i am pretty much what they call " high functioning".
my short term bridge to long term recall is a problem.

I can remember most things from my past, but the present-past is another story.

I have been on "maintenance" drugs ever since. So on a minor level, i know " empathicly" what you may be going through. but you are a type of beacon for the outright indominability of the human "spirit". that is to say a type of example of what the "spirit" can be victorious over in times of trial.

With "new" procedures being intro'd every so often, I've had my fill of snake oil salesmen, and sales women, promising me a cure but producing only a smaller account balance in the bank for me.

That is why I am jaded about "new" procedures, meds,... I still have an "open" mind on things of any type of practice of world medicine, but I now look for results, types of "patients "it helps, ...

I have become the worst thing that any type of "Doctor " dislikes- an informed consumer. lol




Dale
 Funcuz

Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 459
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 5:59:51 PM

Western medicine has evolved with a sort of "puncuated equilibrium". It has advanced rarely, usually because some physician discovered something by accident, and often the physician was an independent, who was not part of the main medical establishment, like Jenner. However, Western society in the last 500 years has had two main things that worked for its benefit. First, when a new medical treatment had been discovered, they shared their discovery with other doctors in the West that the discoverer knew, and they shared this same discovery with the other doctors that they knew, until 90% of doctors in the West all knew of the discovery. So although discoveries are quite rare, what is discovered, is known by many doctors, if not most, and nearly every doctor knows of every medical discovery up to the last 15 years ago. The second, is that when a new medical treatment is found, there have been LOTS of people willing to produce it en masse, to sell it for as much as they could get for it. In the beginning, when it is first discovered, only a few rich people can afford it. But as more and more rich people buy it, the price comes down, and eventually, it gets cheap enough that everyone can afford it, and that guarantees an industry that produces thousands of these treatments for a small price. So capitalism and collaboration have both ensured that medical discoveries are shared and made known to nearly all doctors, and medical treatments are shared and made available to nearly all people. These 2 things have allowed the few discoveries that we have, to be available to billions, and to be able to be administered by every doctor who treats those billions. As a result, there is very little headway in a field like curing smallpox, for hundreds of years, but when one country doctor like Jenner discovers a vaccine to protect against it, it becomes made known and available to everyone in the West, in only a few decades, and suddenly, everyone has it.

If China had that model of spreading medical discoveries, and of producing medical treatments, then all the special treatments that each Chinese doctor alone knows, would be spread right throughout China, and would be available right throughout China. But as it stands, it seems to me that they just didn't yet have that model for Chinese medicine, and still don't, but rather, that it's an art that can only be discerned by an individual doctor. It seems to me that if any doctor of Chinese medicine discovers a special way of treating patients, one that would make him far better at healing, and would garner him far more money from his patients, then he is apt to keep it from himself. The other thing that occurs to me, is that Chinese doctors prepare their own medicines, and so it is not so much in their interest to hand such preparations over to another company like the West did with apothecaries, because that would lose them a lot of revenue. So they keep it in-house, and that means that medicines for standard problems like headaches are not mass-produced. But it is entirely possible that if doctors of Chinese medicine would elect to share ALL their discoveries with each other, and turn over their medical preparations for standard treatments over for mass production, then they would gain the same advantages that we see in Western medicine, at least for standard complaints and illnesses.


Okay...which of your orifices did you pull this out of ?
Chinese traditional medicine only exists to this day because up until fairly recently , Western medicine was shunned and too expensive for the masses anyway. The only reason it was shunned had to do with politics and not much else.
Don't forget , we had our own "traditional" medicines and we threw them out for a reason too. The Chinese may have taken their "traditional" medicine a little further in development than most other places did with their's but in the end it always comes down to what works and what doesn't. You can speculate all you want (however erroneous and misleading your conclusions might be) but basically that's all you're doing.
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 460
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:31:01 PM
RE Msg: 459 by Funcuz:
Okay...which of your orifices did you pull this out of ?
Chinese traditional medicine only exists to this day because up until fairly recently , Western medicine was shunned and too expensive for the masses anyway. The only reason it was shunned had to do with politics and not much else.
Don't forget , we had our own "traditional" medicines and we threw them out for a reason too. The Chinese may have taken their "traditional" medicine a little further in development than most other places did with their's but in the end it always comes down to what works and what doesn't. You can speculate all you want (however erroneous and misleading your conclusions might be) but basically that's all you're doing.
That might be what's happening in China. But in the UK, more and more people are turning to Chinese medicine.

Overall, in the UK, more and more people are complaining of severe and chronic problems, particularly due to pain, stomach-related problems, anxiety, and depression, and a range of other general problems, that Western medicine is finding very difficult to treat. As a result, they have been trying anything that can help, and what they've found, is that a LOT of Chinese medicine is helping where Western doctors simply seem unable to make things any better.

As a result, there are a LOT more Chinese herbal surgeries around than 10 years ago, and I personally know a lot of people who are now using them, for all sorts of ailments. Acupuncture in particular has gained so much acceptance, that the NHS has approved it as treatment it will pay for in some cases. They're even using acupuncture on drug addicts and alcoholics. One person I know attends a centre for treating drug and alcohol addiction. He's reported that it's the most useful thing they've got there, because it relaxes people enough they aren't immediately reaching for a drink or a fix. In his case, he damaged his back severely several years ago. Doctors cannot improve it. He is on pain medication, but he's still in lots of pain. So he gets drunk often, just to wipe out the pain. Acupuncture takes away his pain for several hours. So he's very in favour of it.

Chronic pain is something that doctors here can only treat with drugs, especially chronic back pain. Most of those drugs simply cannot wipe out the pain without wiping out all sense of feeling. So often, to take enough drugs to stop the pain altogether, you have to take so much pain that your body lacks the feeling to even walk. Acupuncture seems to help with taking away the pain, without taking away the ability to walk.

Another problem we have here, is a LOT of diet-related ailments. Generally, doctors just give the same sorts of messages, without being very specific, and without giving much more than antibiotics, and they either don't work, or people aren't doing them, because doctors aren't prescribing a treatment that is specific to the patient's needs. Chinese herbal medicine seems to be much more patient-focussed, and the herbal treatments they give, seem to give a buoyancy to people, and a renewed sense of trying something new, that often kick-starts them into eating more healthy in general, and if they have more digestive trouble, they just go back to the Chinese doctor, and he gives them a new treatment. It's very expensive for a course of Chinese herbs. But for those taking them, they seem to produce very real results, even if only to give people the motivation to put a healthy diet into practice.

Another problem we have here, is anxiety and depression, which are partially due to diet, partially to a lack of exercise, partially due to stress, and partially due to a generally negative attitude. The stress seems to be relieved by acupuncture. The diet seems to be affected by Chinese herbs. A lot of people are now no longer doing sports, and taking up martial arts like Tai Chi, Karate, Kickboxing, or Yoga, partially for exercise, partially to relieve stress, and to gain a more balanced outlook on life.

Unfortunately, we here in the UK are seeing a LOT of problems that were helped a LOT by Western drugs in their first use, are now providing little more than a stop-gap until the patient becomes used to them, and then they just aren't making much of a difference. You can see this in methadone users who are using heroin on top of their methadone. You can see this in more and more diseases becoming resistant to antibiotics. You can see this in more and more people reporting that their pain medications are no longer helping them, and anything more just makes them unable to function. All in all, UK people are now losing their faith in Western medicine, and trying anything else that might work. Chinese medicine appears to be helping them a lot. Maybe it's not a cure-all. Maybe it's all a placebo effect. But whatever it is, it's working, enough that more and more streets have Chinese herbal clinics. 20 years ago, there were only a few in the UK. Now, they're on almost every major high street. That's how popular they are.

Chinese people in China might be clamouring for Western medicine. But Western Brits are clamouring for Chinese medicine.
 desertrhino

Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 461
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 9:54:22 PM
Hmmm... funny thing is, 8 weeks ago, I died at the tender age of 45.

Or, I would have, under the tender auspices of Chinese Traditional Medicine.

My appendix had not only become infected and inflamed, it had swollen to 27 or so times its normal volume (3 times length, width, and breadth), and been encapsulated in a type of scar tissue, which was about to rupture. I went in for a CT scan for non-specific abdominal pain, and was in surgery in under an hour. I was literally hours to days away from a burst, infected appendix, systemic infection, and a 98% chance of a painful, delirious death. Acupuncture would not have helped, at all.

Instead, I have a healing scar and have been back at work for over a month.

While I'm not saying chinese medicine and other traditional treatments are worthless, I just look at the bashing of "Western" (i.e. scientifically-based) medicine and am forced to laugh at the idiocy that claims it doesn't save huge numbers of lives. Reliably. Repeatably. Predictably.

Now, this scar is still fairly painful. I may consider acupuncture as an adjunct to help with the pain, if it doesn't get better. We'll see. I'd like to see more research into why it DOES work sometimes and not others. It'd be great to see it move from pseudo- to science. *shrug*

But I'm not dead.

(And I would have died shortly after birth from complications of premature birth and a collapsed lung... so call me a life-long fan.)
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 462
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 10:21:52 PM
RE Msg: 461 by desertrhino:
Hmmm... funny thing is, 8 weeks ago, I died at the tender age of 45.

Or, I would have, under the tender auspices of Chinese Traditional Medicine.
Not in the UK. Here, if people have a problem, then they'll go and see their GP. Usually, their GP will prescribe them something, and say "if it doesn't heal by the end of the medication, then come back". If it's still a problem, then they'll often be referred to a specialist consultant, which can take a day, or a week, or you can wait months. Then the consultant will have tests done on you, and then discuss the results. Sometimes, they say that something can be done. Often, if you're still in pain, they'll say that nothing can be done, or everything that can be done, is already being done. THAT's usually the point at which people turn to Chinese medicine. But you've got several thousands of people in that situation, people with everything from incurable sciatica, to crippling arthritis, to IBS, or to "internal injuries", all of which have tried to get treatment from Western medicine, but simply can't get. Everything has its limits, even Western medicine.

However, you could be right, that if someone from your country believed in Chinese medicine at all, then you'd be dead. In your country, you're either Republican or Democrat, pro-Life or pro-Choice, liberal or conservative. People in your country seem to leap for the extremes. In the UK, people in the UK don't vote for one side of a debate. They simply go with whatever is going to serve them the best. When Western medicine can treat their illnesses, they use that. When it can't, and Chinese medicine can, they simply go with that. Brits are far more practical about what serves them best.
 divagreen

Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 463
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/12/2009 10:52:07 PM
However, you could be right, that if someone from your country believed in Chinese medicine at all, then you'd be dead. In your country, you're either Republican or Democrat, pro-Life or pro-Choice, liberal or conservative. People in your country seem to leap for the extremes. In the UK, people in the UK don't vote for one side of a debate.


Heeeeyyyy...didn't the British/American war happen a long time ago? Are we still fighting?


I just look at the bashing of "Western" (i.e. scientifically-based) medicine and am forced to laugh at the idiocy that claims it doesn't save huge numbers of lives. Reliably. Repeatably. Predictably.


I don't bash western medicine, I bash the system that it is structured under. I spent years in the medical field, and I have a great appreciate for it, but also understand its limitations...I also comprehend the limitations of alternative medicine...which is why I gravitate towards integrated medicine, or complimentary medicine, call it as you will...

In my experience, one of the main differences between conventional medicine and alternative medicine, is that with alternative medicine there is a huge value placement on preventative measures. The focus seems to be on maintaining a state of homeostasis rather than curing a disease.
 Funcuz

Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 464
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History
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 12:13:34 AM
The only reason Westerners are clamouring for Chinese "traditional" medicine is because they've become too ignorant of science and , frankly , pathetically illogical when it comes to what they'll believe and what they won't. For some reason , it's these same people in the West who can't figure out why China is booming. There's none of this "all ideas are equal" fluff clogging up their thinking processes over here.
 zedstead

Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 465
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 1:14:38 AM

Don't forget , we had our own "traditional" medicines and we threw them out for a reason too.
How about burning practitioners at the stake? They got forced out through systematic force. It is a tragedy that this has happened, not something to be happy about. Now people have to piece together a new tradition from the rubble.


The only reason Westerners are clamouring for Chinese "traditional" medicine is because they've become too ignorant of science and , frankly , pathetically illogical when it comes to what they'll believe and what they won't.
Except that most of the people who are clamouring to it are the ones who already know and understand science. And the fact is scientific studies have shown the efficacy of chinese medicine for various conditions. Each system works better at different things. Scientific medicine, as I stated before totally failed my type of condition and many like mine, and many very different from mine. What is illogical is assuming science has answers for everything when it doesn't. That is a fact. There are huge gaps in comprehension, diagnosis and treatments for many conditions, and the suggested "experimental" treatments are often dangerous and harmful. Again, this is what I've gone through with western medicine.

On both sides the cultures have wanted more of the other system because of the specific ways in which their traditions have not worked. Educate yourself on how the world works, and now with how you think it should work according to science and you'll discover how big your blinders are.
 desertrhino

Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 466
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Posted: 9/13/2009 2:47:03 AM
Scorpio:

In your country, you're either Republican or Democrat, pro-Life or pro-Choice, liberal or conservative. People in your country seem to leap for the extremes. In the UK, people in the UK don't vote for one side of a debate. They simply go with whatever is going to serve them the best. When Western medicine can treat their illnesses, they use that. When it can't, and Chinese medicine can, they simply go with that. Brits are far more practical about what serves them best.


It's funny that what I described for my approach to the medical care for my current issue is almost exactly what I've bolded above as YOUR preferred approach, and yet you felt it necessary to allow your bigotry against Americans to shine right on through. GOOD for you for sticking to your guns, no matter how pointless and wrong.
 Dale 09

Joined: 5/21/2009
Msg: 467
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 5:43:39 AM
Zed,

I believe that each person is "motivated" to find what works better for them.

If all drs., specialists, therapists, ... would network "across the aisles" then we would have a much better buffet of options to choose from. then they could taylor it to their needs.

Oh, as for the west vs. east arguement that is growing here, I believe it is a cross between the grass is always greener... and the oh this is new so it must work well on "Everybody" type thing. in other words: curious and novelty sort of.




dale
 rockondon

Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 468
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 9:50:34 AM
Look at the hate campaign against science in here. I do so enjoy seeing people reap the benefits of science every moment of their daily lives and not only take it for granted, but they complain about it. It'd be great to see these anti-science types use non-scientific alternatives to health and medicine all the time - that way there'd be way fewer anti-science types.

When you say something like science doesn't accept 'X' or that 'Y' isn't scientific, that doesn't mean there's some supposed scientific establishment handing down a decree that they just don't like X or Y, it means that X or Y cannot stand on its own merits. If X and Y worked as well or better than other proven and tested alternatives then they would be accepted.

Its like people are crying in here wahhh western medicine saves millions of lives each day but it doesn't cure every ailment in the universe so I hate it or wahhh science has helped make life today a utopia compared to medieval times but its not perfect enough for me so I hate it or wahhhh science made a mistake once and learned from it but that's not good enough because it should be perfect in every way all the time so I hate it. Really all you're doing is complaining about the hand that feeds you.
 divagreen

Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 469
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 10:13:53 AM
Look at the hate campaign against science in here.


rockondon, (Diva waves a little white flag of truce, wondering if it is safe to come out.)

I don't see anybody putting the hate on science or medicine here. Are we reading the same thread?

More importantly...have you had your morning coffee? :laugh:
 Dale 09

Joined: 5/21/2009
Msg: 470
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 11:45:30 AM
Zed,

multicultural?

when everyone speaks a singular culture or language then ideas flow from an to everyone and to everyone.

I am not saying speak english or die, since we all know that it is an amalgum or **stard child of the countless languages before. perhaps if we were all a "maximillian", a compromise would be reached in effect to suit the needs of multi culturalist singular world wide language. but the confusion in the meantime would have a tower of babble effectgoing in reverse.

But then there are the idioms, slang, cultural knowledge, history of the people...

So in lauding multi culturalism is not bad if it were an ingredient of the "main course" meal. but dictatorialism is not the way either.

it took 12 years from 1962- 1974 for the U. S. to broker the Paris accords and cut -n-run out of the war that was dividing the nation. whether good or bad is still a sore subject for those that lived that era to come to any conclusion so we formed a "mizpah" type understanding. and this one instance still divides us.

Can we imagine what multiculturalism would do or the singular world language option. I believe we could broker a compromise, but the immensity of the problems of either option would be staggering. we still can't decide whether the conservative/ moderate/liberal party is a good way to go into the future and to what degree could/ would balance the city,state, country, or local constabulary, province(?) it would work best.

its just a pandoras' box any way you look at it, I guess?

> cost?

Dale
 Is too hot

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 471
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 2:19:35 PM

It'd be great to see these anti-science types use non-scientific alternatives to health and medicine all the time - that way there'd be way fewer anti-science types.

Entirely agree. This is part of natural selection. It's bizarre that the mechanism is now a cognitive one, not a physical one. That's a result of humanity controlling, and creating, selection pressures.
Still, you'll never get rid of the ignorant or superstitious. There will always be a left side to a distribution. One would hope that illogic woudl disappear as a human quality but I've seen no evidence of it.
 zedstead

Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 472
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:06:52 PM
^^ Too bad you keep confusing "logic" with brainwashing. There is no logic in forcing to people to use a system that fails consistently a large percentage of the time.It's like some kind of Orwellian nightmare where people are told the "truth" over and over, even though in real life it only works some of the time. Thinking science has all the answers is as ignorant as thinking the bible does. At least real scientists know how much there is still left to know, and have the humility to accept their own limitations.
 desertrhino

Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 473
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:16:10 PM

There is no logic in forcing to people to use a system that fails consistently a large percentage of the time.

You have a strange definition of "large percentage."


Thinking science has all the answers is as ignorant as thinking the bible does. At least real scientists know how much there is still left to know, and have the humility to accept their own limitations.

I'm sure the non-real scientists will eventually come to accept your claims that science is as useless as the bible. Because obviously the real ones already know they can't expect the sun to rise in the east from time to time.
 zedstead

Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 474
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:38:59 PM
"Large percentage" comes from the number of people I talk to in my life who have negative experiences with the medical system as it is.

Knowing the limitations of science is important, or it can lead to dangerous assumptions. I don't believe the Bible is useless, it is a major historical document and is important to understand as our current cultural environment was shaped by it. Science was created by religious people, and many still are. Science is just a tool, it doesn't show the truth, it just shows evidence of how the physical world functions. If you don't understand that, and think that somehow finding those little pieces of information from scientific study suddenly wipes out all other forms of human knowledge, you've lost all perspective on what it's actually good for.

I'm not saying science is good for nothing, I'm just saying it's not good for EVERYTHING. Trying to use it to understand all parts of the human experience can be like using a sledgehammer when a feather might have been more appropriate. It can destroy the very thing it was trying to discover by going about things the wrong way. A tool is only as good as the person using it, and since science will only every be used by people, it will be limited by the homo sapien ability or lack of ability to ask the right questions.
 Is too hot

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 475
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Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/13/2009 9:17:11 PM

At least real scientists know how much there is still left to know, and have the humility to accept their own limitations.

We do. Science is the best system for learning what is not yet known. It's a system that strictly enforces knowledge and definition of limitations in theory and practice.

You don't know that because you don't know what science is. It's obvious from all your posts. It's a bit silly writing about something for which you're ignorant of its definition. But you persist. It's OK, though. I enjoy giving people as much rope as they need.

What was it Lincoln said about it's bad enough being thought a fool without confirmiing it by opening your mouth? Please keep writing.
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