|
|
|
|
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 3/31/2007 6:53:00 PM |
even if it's a stab in the dark some have to start some where.
Finally !!!!! A little open mindedness.
Think of this; how many hypothesis/theories/laws are initially considered pseudo???
All it takes is one person to throw out the BS card and suddenly its pseudoscience.
Dr. Strange, I really enjoyed your comic books. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/2/2007 11:17:10 AM |
Magnets and "catalysts" for softening water, magnetic laundry balls,
waters that are "oxygenated", "clustered", "unclustered" or "vitalized"
(purporting to improve cellular hydration, remove toxins, and repair DNA),
high zeta-potential colloids and vortex-treated waters to raise your energy levels,
halt or reverse ageing and remove geopathic stress
— these are being aggressively marketed via the Internet, radio infomercials,
seminars, and by various purveyors of new-age nonsense.
Some nonsense, but what of the science in amongst the nonsense which is just inadequately tested or researched? H Pylori is a great example, the guy had hard time doing his experiments because he needed basically an opening to normal functioning stomach. This was difficult to devise tests for.
Ditto with accupuncture. It was considered a mystical bogus science until some guy came up with a set of needles which could be used and some would go in while others would not which UPHELD the scientific standard for a double blind study. It had to be double blind in order to be scientifically valid. So that little invention of those needles changed the world! Csrtainly the way Doctors and everyday folks look at accupuncture. And if we missed that about accupuncture for so long how much else of the eastern medicines have we erroneously discarded as mystical BS?
There are so many items in the PseudoScience realm where
people spend enormous amounts of money hoping to be healed.
The internet propogates myths, fallacies, inconsistencies and outright lies.
There is hope. What works for some does not work for all. Ironically, though, the biggest common denominator of that is that the placebo effect can be more complex than you realize. For instance to backstep to the accupuncture needles again... it was awhile back when I read the article about all that but I clearly recall that there was a significant different in percentage of people healed or helped when the accupuncturist was of an obvious asian descent. I think it was around 8 percent, thrice the standard inaccuracy rate which is usually plus or minus three percent so it was statistically significant. Anyway the point is that even though the accupunturing works in and of itself the placebo effect may increase those numbers.
So is it truly a pseudoscience if the placebo works? Think about that, its a large and nearly circular issue.
To put it more succinctly: If you purchase a placebo and the placebo works were you ripped off?
I have a perfect real life example here, I bought a Q ray bracelet via a tv ad. It works for me about like 1.5 ibuprofen would. Years later I get a thing in the mail that I could sign to join on sueing them because others claim their product does not work.
Was anyone really ripped off if they could return it within a reasonable time period? I don't think so, I think this is either bad greedy customers or greedy lawyers.
The facts are with these kinds of cases that very little of that money ever shows up in the actual consumers hands. Lawyers make these claims because they are profitable business tactics and appear to be somewhat altruistic so its an easy sell. They "eat up" all the "winnings" in court costs and lawyers fees. In the end the sharks really only feed themselves while appearing to be fishing for the whole tribe. | |
|
Mr H2O
|
Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 53 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/2/2007 2:35:21 PM | Parasitic snakeoil salesmen selling hope are lower than snail scum !!!
If people used their mind theraputically - i.e visualization, meditation, etc.
there would be no need for the "placebo effect" and they could save money.
Our judicial system has far too many loopholes for these hucksters to skate through.
Instead of the insane cycle of $$$$ a.) insurance, b.) doctors, c.) malpractice
perhaps we would all benefit from intense research into what works and what doesn't.
A medical version of Myth Busters on the Discovery Channel if you will . | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/2/2007 11:00:43 PM |
Think of this; how many hypothesis/theories/laws are initially considered pseudo???
I'm not sure what your definition of science is. Science is very simple actually. It is a system of investigation based upon the most current empirical data. That means experiments with controls, verified and repetable by multiple, independant sources.
What I'm saying is that pseudo science doesn't imply that a claim is true or false, it simply implies that it does not follow the rules of scientific investigation. Examples include most everything to do with paranormal investigation (ghosts, Ouiji boards) or mystical /spiritual claims ("The Secret", Sylvia Brown, astrology, Intelligent Design). It doesn't mean they don't work (though I am highly skeptical), it just means they aren't science.
When you consider that a goal of science is continued improvement of knowledge, it isn't so suprising that hypothesis are continually being rejected (cold fusion). To me what seems amazing are the ones that have stood basically true in their original forms for long periods of time (Newton's Laws, kinetic molecular theory, selective differentiation). | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/2/2007 11:15:08 PM | | Some quacks--like Sigmund Freud--have so thoroughly penetrated the way people think that it's almost impossible to be rid of their BS. Who could think of describing some psychological realities without unproven and utterly false concepts such as the subconscious or the unconscious; the stages of early development, especially the Oedipal complex stage; catharsis; etc... And the man wrote volumes on this "science" of Psychoanalysis which he made up as he went along... The question is though: is his quackery, based on verbal "remote-sensing" of the foundational trauma in childhood, conducive to lasting mental health than the "scientific" pharmacotherapy that some claim is akin to lobotomy? | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 5:08:52 AM |
Parasitic snakeoil salesmen selling hope are lower than snail scum !!!
If people used their mind theraputically - i.e visualization, meditation, etc.
there would be no need for the "placebo effect" and they could save money.
Our judicial system has far too many loopholes for these hucksters to skate through.
Really? If the hope and funds buy those people a cure, how is that really such a bad thing, if the person is cured?
I mean, fundamentally, I agree with what you are saying, of course, but think about what I am saying. You are discarding a large portion of potential science just because it is not yet proven. Or likewise believing in bad science because it is proven and will be disproven later. How can we ever be wiser than the limits of time allows?
The irony of your quote is that people are already conditioned to believe commercial tactics and not conditioned or knowledgeful in the whole visualization/meditation areas.
I wish I could remember where I read that accupuncture article, you'd like it, it was in a magazine in a waiting room somewhere. Maybe you could google up the story, ditto with the H pylori ulcer story. It's fascinating to be right there at that event horizon where pseudoscience graduates to legitimate science. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 3:31:07 PM | Hi im
Seems you're just reaching for something to flail against.
What I'm saying is that pseudo science doesn't imply that a claim is true or false
Pseudo = false, but that's OK .
The emphasis of my postings is not to quibble over facts, but rather to present an alternative perspective to those who deal only in absolutes and that the world isn't exclusively black and white.
In cyber space (POF),as is often the case in the real world, those who shout the loudest tend to smother others who have more liberal outlooks, as if the mere force of their selfrightous proclaimations were just proof to truth. This is not to say that their truths aren't just. It is just that I would prefer to champion a more open minded debate. Therefore, if you've read my postings you would see that my thrusts are more directed at the closed minded fools who bandy tired rhetoric, their truth being only somewhat relevant, than to prove mine own opinions. I'm sure you've seen the hypocracy of many of our fellow POFers who proclaim the Impirisim of the religion that is known as science, but fail to recognize that the Empirical methodology, theorhetically intrinsic in these sciences, portends rather to an objective view of the facts relative to any given subject.
So, my friend, flail away. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 3:51:12 PM | Well, just to add some examples.
Homeopathy, chapter and verse, is pseudoscience from explanation to effect.
Accupuncture (and some of its less pointy sisters) has some repeatable empirical results for some of its treatments, but the underlying explanation is pseudoscience. Work is ongoing in several places to determine which treatments actually work and why.
What the Bleep Do We Know is pseudoscience and barely coherent to boot. (The Secret is just magical thinking in another incarnation, not pseudoscience.)
Intelligent Design is pseudoscience.
Most global warming denial is pseudoscience. (Degree, impact and what to do require serious brainpower and skepticism.)
Skepticism and empiricism should be taught as skills in schools. Credulity and fabulism should be studied in schools as cautionary examples or perhaps art.
Cheers,
Mike (having basic standards for evidence is not the same as being close-minded) | |
|
Mr H2O
|
Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 59 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 3:56:54 PM | A few more to think about :
http://www.timecube.com/
DMSMH: Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health.
Crystal / Pyramid Healing
Radionics HDRT utilizes new LINAC-based CT imaging
to meet the challenges of extracranial stereotaxy.
Modern Geocentrism
PT Barnum was right - a sucker IS born every nanosecond.
If people took the time to investigatively read they would
self educate themselves and avoid all this lame ass nonsense.
Ohhhh I forgot ***** a fifth of the United States is functionally illiterate *******
For those bad in math, that is 20 % Of the United States of America in 2007 !!!! | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 4:04:40 PM |
PT Barnum was right - a sucker IS born every nanosecond.
If people took the time to investigatively read they would
self educate themselves and avoid all this lame ass nonsense.
Ohhhh I forgot ***** a fifth of the United States is functionally illiterate *******
For those bad in math, that is 20 % Of the United States of America in 2
Good point aqueous one.
And 98% of that remainder are only literate enough to be dangerous. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 5:01:43 PM | Skepticism and empiricism should be taught as skills in schools. Credulity and fabulism should be studied in schools as cautionary examples or perhaps art.
I couldn't agree more that critical thinking skills should be taught in schools. Credulity I suppose doesn't necessarily have to be used as cautionary examples, as long as there is a understanding between what is evidental and what is simply belief. There is occasion for blind faith to be used as a metaphor for hope in literature etc.
Yes, "The Secret" is most accurately described as mysticism but I was thinking of how people are claiming that it is factually true because when they tried it, it worked (anecdotal evidence).
I wouldn't go 100% on saying that global warming denial is pseudoscience, not just yet. Perhaps that's still a "sacred cow" to me but I'm awaiting further evidence.
having basic standards for evidence is not the same as being close-minded
Amen to that. Claiming someone is closed minded is the all time, #1 ad hominem argument of the non-critical thinker. The thing is, everyone is closed minded about something - Bigfoot, crop circles, Q-rays, china teapots circling the sun, the Giant Spaghetti Monster, the Dharma Initiative, electronic voice phenomenon, spoon bending, homeopathy, fad diets, chupacabras, no money down real estate scams, the abdominizer, the Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, pet psychics, faith healing or the grilled cheese virgin mary. The list is endless. At some point, you have to drop the blind faith and rely on something more reliable, like empirical evidence or god forbid, common sense.
PS - that timecube site is INSANE! Reminds me a lot of alexchiu.com (large bold text, claims of persecution). I get a little concerened because sometimes I suspect that schizophenics are living out their delusions on the internet. It's more sad than funny. | |
|
Mr H2O
|
Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 62 | |
| |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 6:22:57 PM | And manatees are sexy, if you are a disbeliever check out www.hornymanatee.com !
Accupuncture (and some of its less pointy sisters) has some repeatable empirical results for some of its treatments, but the underlying explanation is pseudoscience. Work is ongoing in several places to determine which treatments actually work and why.
Untrue, UrbanX. This is exactly what we were talking about above if you'll read the past in this thread. Accupuncture has been a proven science for years which is why a lot of insurance companies actually cover it the same as any other legitimate medical treatment. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 6:42:17 PM |
Untrue, UrbanX. This is exactly what we were talking about above if you'll read the past in this thread.
Accupuncture isn't a science. It has some repeatable results as I stated but the primary explanations advanced are non-scientific in nature, depending upon undetectable meridians and chi. Most results vary significantly between practitioners. The elements that actually work are more in the nature of an art.
Also as I stated, various real science organizations are attempting to explain the repeatable empirical results. Meridians and chi have not been involved in the explanations advanced to date.
That insurance companies cover it is not evidence that it is a science. They also cover vertebral subluxation, after all.
Cheers,
Mike (but do feel free to assert your duly noted opinion on this subject again without benefit of reference or provision of additional information) | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 6:50:16 PM |
Accupuncture has been a proven science for years
Patently untrue since there is no possible way to design a randomized, double blinded study to test the efficacy of acupuncture . There is no histological or biochemical evidence for the existence of "meridians", nor is there any evidence that accupuncture achieves anything beyond placebo. There is a theory based on "pain gating" but to date there is no hard evidence to support it - thus it remains in the realm of theory.
As for something being scientific just because an insurance company pays for it - c'mon, that's pretty damn far from proof. Also, according to a survey of american oncologists, nearly all agreed that they supported acupuncture and alternative therapy as long as it did no harm for fear that patients might refuse life saving treatment if they (the doctors) voiced a strong objection.
If there is proper experimental evidence , I've yet to find it. If you know of any, please let me know. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 8:06:03 PM |
but do feel free to assert your duly noted opinion on this subject again without benefit of reference or provision of additional information
I have read the article, read the details about the needles and how they were sheathed with plastic and had sticky ends such that when they were "applied" neither the accupuncturist nor the patient could tell the difference. This constitutes a true double blind study. I saw the statistics years ago. But I am not your personal researcher.
You never posted any links for proof of anything you have said in this thread, either. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/3/2007 10:40:22 PM | acupuncture is not a science because they don't understand why there are positive results...it's really just speculative...well...pseudoscience, I don't even know if I'd call it that.
just because some physical event creates a positive physical effect on the subject it is called science?
until they can prove and show why it occurs it is not a science.
plus, what is the probability of someone being cured by using acupuncture for specific ailments..is it 50/50 60/40 80/20 cmon
if it's a science then they should do some tests and establsh whether it is normally distributed in a large enough sample size.
there, that will solve everything
shouldn't a science mean that 100% of the time, the predicted outcome of an experiment happens? | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 10:29:18 AM | shouldn't a science mean that 100% of the time, the predicted outcome of an experiment happens?
That's gotta be a trick question, given your screen name (anova).
In most cases, when it comes to treatment efficacy, I would expect something like a significant, quantifiable positive result 99 times out of 100 (p=0.1), though I suppose a p value of 0.5 (19/20) would be acceptable. Feel free to correct my statistics, I'm a bit rusty.
I would be interested in an acupuncture study of 100 "true believers", 100 "true skeptics" and 100 "no opinion" just to see if there is a correlation between percieved benefit and acceptance of the method. Maybe there's something in the literature.
I'm tired of acupuncture - what about the science of Feng Shui? It's sorta like acupuncture for your furniture:
http://www.feng-shui-institute.org/fengshuiscience.htm | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 1:42:54 PM |
acupuncture is not a science because they don't understand why there are positive results...it's really just speculative...well...pseudoscience, I don't even know if I'd call it that.
You are right and wrong. Youre correct! Acupuncture isnt a science because they (western medicine) cant explain why there is positive results. Acupuncturists themselves know exactly why it works but Wetern Medicine has no tolerance for spiritual healing. Ill tell you what you can call alternative medicine a pseudoscience once it stops curing things that western medicine cannot cure at all.
shouldn't a science mean that 100% of the time, the predicted outcome of an experiment happens?
Wait so now surgeries and medicinal drugs have 100% sucess rates. I thought that would have at least made front page news. Homeopathy has cured me of disease that western medicine and doctors said was not possible. Yay for pseudoscience?  | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 6:35:52 PM |
acupuncture is not a science because they don't understand why there are positive results...it's really just speculative...well...pseudoscience, I don't even know if I'd call it that.
just because some physical event creates a positive physical effect on the subject it is called science?
until they can prove and show why it occurs it is not a science.
Now it sounds like you and UrbanX are backpeddling on the definition of science and wanting to change it. I thought we agreed reproduceable retestable results were enough to justify it as a science. Now you want reason and rationale behind that.... guess its time for you to start doing your own experiments and show you can think for yourselves.
As far as my real life experiences go with accupuncture I was sent for one problem and while it did not help that problem it did help other medication work better but the real shocker was that a previous condition I had suffered with since I was a child and frankly thought would never go away, went away.
Doctors had thrown all their techniques and medicine at it to no success, accupuncture worked. So my experiences show maybe it is superior science, no matter how poorly understood it is.
I think you two are just denying the science as a science. These people go to school for quite awhile to learn how to do accupuncture. There is a system behind it, it just does not happen to fit into western thinking medicine currently. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 7:02:13 PM |
Now it sounds like you and UrbanX are backpeddling on the definition of science and wanting to change it.
Not at all. I'm saying science is being applied to accupuncture and repeating myself in the process; perhaps it's my inability with the English language. You're saying accupuncture is a science. At the very best, accupuncture aspires to be scientifically based, which it currently isn't.
You may have agreed that all that is required are experiments with repeatable results, but I don't remember signing anything to that effect. Science is a process that includes replicable experiments. They are not in aid of mindless replication however or beating your head against a wall would count as science (or posting to POF for that matter).
My definition includes an attempt to understand the mechanisms involved and the development of predictive models. A discipline such as accupuncture would need to be evolutionary based on the results of scientific processes much as Western medicine is to be scientifically based. Western medicine doesn't claim to be a science, by the way. It does claim to be a mostly scientifically based treatment process and is strongly focused on learning from its mistakes and from folk treatments from around the world including accupuncture.
Accupuncture as currently practiced and taught neither seeks new understanding or evolves with it. Chi and meridians are non-observable, non-quantifiable and non-replicable explanatory models from traditional Chinese medicine. As long as accupuncture uses them as anything more than pretty analogies, it will be difficult for it to be scientifically based. As long as accupuncture adheres to centuries old tradition without updating techniques to eliminate those that do not provide benefit, it will be difficult for it to be scientifically based.
The process of science is being applied to accupuncture to validate some results and to attempt to find valid explanations. Accupuncture remains something other than a science and is not scientifically based.
I trust this is a little clearer for you. Note the nuances. Note the acceptance of what has been observed. Note the lack of black-and-white absolutism. Please try to come to the middle ground.
Cheers,
Mike (and I'll repeat myself again; people go to school for a long time to learn about vertebral subluxation too; it doesn't make that theory any more scientific) | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 7:38:09 PM |
people go to school for a long time to learn about vertebral subluxation too; it doesn't make that theory any more scientific)
As in chiropractic?
The physiological science of chiroparctic is very basic and easy to understand and absolutely verifiable and repeatable. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 7:53:09 PM | For a reasonably unbiased review of the history and TCM and Western medicine evidence for and against the efficacy of acupuncture, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture
At the bottom of this page is a very recent relatively compelling Cochran Review.
The gating and excitation/inhibition (neurohormone commentary is especially interesting. Without going into details, let me say that I have been reading exceptionally strong evidence to support this concept of manual stimulation of critical receptors (pain, pressure, heat, location and irritation/mechanical injury).
Manual stimulation extends to the concept of positional stimulation either by moving through key muscle and nerve path stimulation or by holding poses.
In other words, there is compelling Western medical evidence that supports the backbone of TCM that includes: manual/motion stimulation (acupuncture, Xi Gung (also called 'Chi Gong') and tai chi) and its latter's counter part in Ayurvedic medicine and yoga practices.
This is an area (CNS excitation/inhibition) that I spend an inordinate amount of personal time studying in depth (pharmacology, neurophysiology and molecular biology).
I was skeptical for a long time, until I took a long look at ART (active release therapy) and then at Chi Gong. And then I realized the correlation between Chi (active conduction), and positive/negative (inverted from the Western concept, that is that inhibition is positive and excitation negative), either one in excess (over- or under-activity) results in abnormal function of local nerve pathways and secretory/pain regulation systems.
But more importantly, that regulated (elongating) body movement itself causes upregulation in the production of serotonin and methylation agents in the gut necessary for key liver and brain pathway chemistry. Curling, or tightening or lack of locomotion activation on key CNS pathways results in a shut down of these function. This can be correlated to RBC (erthyrocyte) binding and delivery of sertotonin and redox balance effects on liver, brain and red blood cell intactness.
And its this latter item that affects Fe (iron) release that catalyzes glycation, amyloid plaque and fibrin deposition (resulting in a process called 'tissue remodeling'), and chances in mitochondrial membrane status. All of these are associated with chronic disease and advanced aging throughout the body.
So as I said earlier, there is COMPELLING biochemical and molecular biology evidence that activation of key nerve channels through disturbance of gated/neurohormone CNS pathways plays a role in the maintenance of health and wellness in humans. | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 8:00:46 PM | Chiropractics a theory? Its been tested as scientifically as western medicine and found to be beneficial. Just because doctors tried to sweep them under the rug as fakes doesnt mean its true. Western medecine and pharms will do anything for money cursed monopoly  The public can be so gullible  | |
|
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 4/4/2007 8:22:04 PM | Not sure exactly what your trying to say.
<div class="quote">Its been tested as scientifically as western medicine and found to be beneficial. Just because doctors tried to sweep them under the rug as fakes doesnt mean its true. Western medecine and pharms will do anything for money cursed monopoly
Very basic example of how chiropractic works. Imagine your body as an electrically powered machine. (It is in fact) Your spinal column is the main power line for the entire body. The nerve lines split off the the spinal column and go to every part of the body. If, for example your L5 (5th vertabre, lumbar region) is out of alignment, this would in effect constrict the nerve (power line) to your legs (generalizing here). Often the complaint is the sciatic nerve. When the vertebre is realigned the nerve is no longer constricted or pinched and energy flow is resumed.
The concept is very simple, what complecates things are the patients themselves. Often the patient expects that one adjustment will fix the problem, yet the next day they have recurring symptoms. This is caused by either trauma or repetative motions. for example; with men who often drive with their wallet in their back pocket. This causes an unbalance in your hips and your body compensates by twisting the back in the lumbar region. The patient goes to the doctor and gets adjusted, but continues to put the wallet in their back pocket when they drive. Therefore the problem will continue.
Chiropractic lends itself to this concept. "The power that made the body, heals the body". Our bodies have the ability to heal itself of EVERY disease. Chiropractic helps facilitate the healing process of the body. | |
|
|
| Page 3 of 22
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 |
|
Home
login 
