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| Science is peer reviewed? Psuedo-Science isn't? Posted: 4/9/2007 11:38:06 AM |
Just because you can not walk up to God and say "Did you create the universe Monday morning and rest on Sunday?" and have him say "Yes" it does not pull away validity from the fact that prayer works. Science has tested it and even for those who do not believe in it Prayer definitely works.
How can you say this with such surety? Especially that part about 'Science has tested it'.
Read the first link and try to identify which fallacies you've invoked to substantiate your argument. I count no fewer then 3.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Read the second link and see yourself no less then 4 studies into prayer failed to find any positive correlation between being prayed for, and healing
http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122
Find me a study performed by an actual scientist, that is peer reviewed thats the key. Its always harder to bribe more then one person. | |
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Mr H2O
| Joined: 10/31/2006 Msg: 103 | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 8:18:24 AM | Oie ! <div class="quote">Now is this pseudoscience or the advancement of science itself?
Read the whole post you silly man. I'm agreeing with you! Argh! In fact there is much that is not known about the combinations of chemicals we would ingest in to our bodies and to what effect they would have on each person individually. Did these supplements help you? If you believe, or better yet, know that they helped you, then who of us, in all our infinite knowledge, (mockingly) can argue with the results. By all means continue using them. My suggestion was that the basic ingredients can be obtained through a conscious diet. The radioacitve isotopes you mention are reviewed on a few sites but their relevance is not expanded upon other than specific content. If this is what makes them effective, I do not know. Far be it from me to disclaim something based on what little knowledge I've obtain. The placebo effect, however, can indeed effect the results whether actually ingested or not. This has not been explained, but is observable in a wide range of experiments throughout medicine. In the end, how you consciously feel about the product has ramifications both positively and negitively that can not be denied. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 10:43:48 AM | Actually, still not science. We don't truly know it's one of those three things that was the root of your problem (and concerning your idea about acupuncture, proposing a hypothesis is only part of the scientific process - interesting thought, though). Your body was subjected to a huge amount of other factors in an uncontrolled situation and without comparison to any other known subjects.
If you'd been part of a study of many individuals and the diet, actions and results for all of these people were recorded, then it'd be a much more scientifically valuable and valid test. While there is no such thing as a perfect scientific study in a world where an unfathomable number of factors interact, there are things that can be done to at least be more sure you get the signal to noise ratio higher, so to speak.
In this instance (testing Barefoot's claims and the value of his products), it'd be advisable to do something like the following, though I'm sure I'll miss a number of things.
Split the study into the groups below.
1. Those who continue their diets like normal 2. Those who continue their diets like normal, but are given a generic supplement containing a wide range of vitamins and minerals 3. Those who continue their diets like normal, but are given Barefoot's coral calcium supplement 4. Those who are given a fixed balanced meal regimen 5. Those who are given a fixed balanced meal regimen and are given a generic supplement containing a wide range of vitamins and minerals 6. Those who are given a fixed balanced meal regimen and are given Barefoot's coral calcium supplement
It'd also be nice to regulate people's activity during the study, but I am betting that would usually lead to a very low participation rate. Perhaps the subjects could be asked to keep a journal of day to day activities. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 11:13:58 AM | Sombient: I have a name. Use it.
specifically, avoid the words, 'yap, jack, 'shoot your mouth off'', and the overall condescention'. Your not helping contribute to a meaningful discussion.
Onward.
I'm not a scientist. (I'm guessing) neither are you. Its not my job (or yours) to read the peer reviewed literature; however, I'm more then happy to point folks in the right direction to debunk the claim that 'science has proven it'. There aren't any 'proofs' in science, only well tested theories. I stay privy to matters of how far science has gotten on proving or disproving a fringe belief. I get upset when I see someone put a seal of approval on something that most certainly doesn't deserve it.
What are the physiological responses that occur during prayer? How are they measured? Tell me what you know about autonomic response. How about the neuroendocrine system? What do you know of its regulation and connection to disease states?
Are you referring to psychosomatic response, aka the placebo effect? I have little doubt that the strong desire to live has a positive correlation on the placebo effect. Sometimes people with a strong desire to live pray. Does that mean that prayer cured them? I'm specifically referring to something much easier to test, prayers for other people.
Of the studies I cited , which you failed to read [excusable, they are dry afterall], the Harvard study, if I recall correctly, had three tests groups
1) Not being prayed for 2) Being prayed for, didn't know 3) Being prayed for, knew.
groups 1 and 2, performed identically, group 3 performed worse , maybe performance anxiety? | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 12:18:52 PM | | Also, add to my previous post two more groups - one being told they're getting a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement, the other being told they're getting the coral calcium supplement. In reality, both would get a placebo. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 1:32:49 PM | Msg 115: You don't read the professional journals, then. You read someone elses synopsis of one poorly designed study. That study did not assess the power of prayer in healing. It assessed whether a person who has undergone open heart surgery responded to prayers read out (the 'prayer' was a recitation of pre-written material) by others.
You should go to the US National Institutes of Healths public biomedical literature database, PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi
And you should type in this key word search phrase: meditation OR prayer and health effects. The database search result should be: 1965 matching citations (99 pages).
Start reading a few abstracts. Some describe testing methods to ascertain spirituality and relationship/social support systems. These have been assessed for various patient cohorts. Not surprisingly, cancer and multiple sclerosis patients have some of the lowest scores.
Choose list item 4. then on that abstract page, on the right hand side, choose the first item in the "Related Links" list. that will bring you to this abstract:
Engagement of patients in religious and spiritual practices: confirmatory results with the SpREUK-P 1.1 questionnaire as a tool of quality of life research. Health Qual Life Outcomes. 2005 3:53.
BACKGROUND: Quality of life is a multidimensional construct composed of functional, physical, emotional, social and spiritual well-being. In order to examine how patients with severe diseases view the impact of spirituality and religiosity on their health and how they cope with illness, we have developed the SpREUK questionnaire. We deliberately avoided the intermingling of attitudes, convictions and practices, and thus addressed the distinct forms and frequencies of spiritual/religious practices in an additional manual, the SpREUK-P questionnaire. METHODS: The SpREUK-P was designed to differentiate spiritual, religious, existentialistic and philosophical practices. It was tested in a sample of 354 German subjects (71% women; 49.0 +/- 12.5 years). Half of them were healthy controls, while among the patients cancer was diagnosed in 54%, multiple sclerosis in 22%, and other chronic diseases in 23%. Reliability and factor analysis of the inventory were performed according to the standard procedures. RESULTS: We confirmed the structure and consistency of the previously described 18-item SpREUK-P manual and improved the quality of the current construct by adding several new items. The new 25-item SpREUK-P 1.1 (Cronbach's alpha = 0.8517) has the following scales: (1) conventional religious practice (CRP), (2) existentialistic practice (ExP), (3) unconventional spiritual practice (USP), (4) nature/environment-oriented practice (NoP), and (5) humanistic practice (HuP). Among the tested individuals, the highest engagement scores were found for HuP and NoP, while the lowest were found for the USP. Women had significantly higher scores for ExP than male patients. With respect to age, the engagement in CRP increases with increasing age, while the engagement in a HuP decreased. Individuals with a Christian orientation and with a religious and spiritual attitude had the highest engagement scores for CRP, while the engagement in an USP was high with respect to a spiritual attitude. Variance analyses confirmed that the SpR attitude and religious affiliation are the main relevant covariates for CRP and ExP, while for the USP the SpR attitude and the educational level are of significance, but not religious affiliation. Patients with multiple sclerosis overall had the lowest engagement scores for all five forms of SpR practice, while it is remarkable that cancer patients had lower scores for HuP and USP than healthy subjects. CONCLUSION: The current re-evaluation of the SpREUK-P questionnaire (Version 1.1) indicates that it is a reliable, valid measure of five distinct forms of spiritual, religious and philosophical practice that may be especially useful for assessing the role of spirituality and religiosity in health related research. An advantage of our instruments is the clear-cut differentiation between convictions and attitudes on the one hand, and the expression of these attitudes in a concrete engagement on the other hand.
So you see, the utility of prayer is its immediate effect on the person who is praying. Beyond the immediate autonomic (physical) effects, is psychosocial engagement, in a loosely knit relationship in group practice that is also important - it an extended social support community who shares belief, values and religious practices (worship).
In chronic health care conditions, meditation and prayer have been found to be helpful in a multimodal treatment approach.
For a common cognitive deficit disorder, ADHD:
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder across the lifespan: the child, adolescent, and adult. Dis Mon. 2007 Feb;53(2):70-131
Management of a child, adolescent, college student, or adult with ADD/ADHD (ADHD) is reviewed with emphasis on pharmacologic approaches in the adult. Psychological treatment includes psychotherapy, cognitive-behavior therapy, support groups, parent training, biofeedback, meditation, and social skills training. Medications are reviewed that research has revealed can improve the core symptomatology of a child or adolescent with ADHD. These medications include stimulants (psychostimulants), antidepressants, alpha-2 agonists, and a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. Psychopharmacology approved and/or used in pediatric patients are also used in adults with ADHD, though most are not officially FDA-approved. It is emphasized that ADHD management should include a multi-modal approach, involving appropriate educational interventions, appropriate psychological management of the patient of any age, and judicious use of medications. Such an approach is recommended to benefit those with ADHD achieve their maximum potential across the human life span.
Note that meditation is termed 'psychological adjustment'. Thats exactly the case: it alters the flow of blood to specific parts of the brain involved in cognition and emotional control.
A randomized controlled trial of mindfulness meditation versus relaxation training: effects on distress, positive states of mind, rumination, and distraction. Ann Behav Med. 2007 Feb;33(1):11-21.
BACKGROUND: Although mindfulness meditation interventions have recently shown benefits for reducing stress in various populations, little is known about their relative efficacy compared with relaxation interventions. PURPOSE: This randomized controlled trial examines the effects of a 1-month mindfulness meditation versus somatic relaxation training as compared to a control group in 83 students (M age = 25; 16 men and 67 women) reporting distress. Method: Psychological distress, positive states of mind, distractive and ruminative thoughts and behaviors, and spiritual experience were measured, while controlling for social desirability. RESULTS: Hierarchical linear modeling reveals that both meditation and relaxation groups experienced significant decreases in distress as well as increases in positive mood states over time, compared with the control group (p < .05 in all cases). There were no significant differences between meditation and relaxation on distress and positive mood states over time. Effect sizes for distress were large for both meditation and relaxation (Cohen's d = 1.36 and .91, respectively), whereas the meditation group showed a larger effect size for positive states of mind than relaxation (Cohen's d =.71 and .25, respectively). The meditation group also demonstrated significant pre-post decreases in both distractive and ruminative thoughts/behaviors compared with the control group (p < .04 in all cases; Cohen's d = .57 for rumination and .25 for distraction for the meditation group), with mediation models suggesting that mindfulness meditation's effects on reducing distress were partially mediated by reducing rumination. No significant effects were found for spiritual experience. CONCLUSIONS: The data suggest that compared with a no-treatment control, brief training in mindfulness meditation or somatic relaxation reduces distress and improves positive mood states. However, mindfulness meditation may be specific in its ability to reduce distractive and ruminative thoughts and behaviors, and this ability may provide a unique mechanism by which mindfulness meditation reduces distress.
Mindfulness-based stress reduction in relation to quality of life, mood, symptoms of stress and levels of cortisol, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS) and melatonin in breast and prostate cancer outpatients. Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2004 May;29(4):448-74.
OBJECTIVES: This study investigated the relationships between a mindfulness-based stress reduction meditation program for early stage breast and prostate cancer patients and quality of life, mood states, stress symptoms, and levels of cortisol, dehydroepiandrosterone-sulfate (DHEAS) and melatonin. METHODS: Fifty-nine patients with breast cancer and 10 with prostate cancer enrolled in an eight-week Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) program that incorporated relaxation, meditation, gentle yoga, and daily home practice. Demographic and health behavior variables, quality of life, mood, stress, and the hormone measures of salivary cortisol (assessed three times/day), plasma DHEAS, and salivary melatonin were assessed pre- and post-intervention. RESULTS: Fifty-eight and 42 patients were assessed pre- and post-intervention, respectively. Significant improvements were seen in overall quality of life, symptoms of stress, and sleep quality, but these improvements were not significantly correlated with the degree of program attendance or minutes of home practice. No significant improvements were seen in mood disturbance. Improvements in quality of life were associated with decreases in afternoon cortisol levels, but not with morning or evening levels. Changes in stress symptoms or mood were not related to changes in hormone levels. Approximately 40% of the sample demonstrated abnormal cortisol secretion patterns both pre- and post-intervention, but within that group patterns shifted from "inverted-V-shaped" patterns towards more "V-shaped" patterns of secretion. No overall changes in DHEAS or melatonin were found, but nonsignificant shifts in DHEAS patterns were consistent with healthier profiles for both men and women. CONCLUSIONS: MBSR program enrollment was associated with enhanced quality of life and decreased stress symptoms in breast and prostate cancer patients, and resulted in possibly beneficial changes in hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis functioning. These pilot data represent a preliminary investigation of the relationships between MBSR program participation and hormone levels, highlighting the need for better-controlled studies in this area.
There are many hundreds of articles demonstrating mental and physical health and wellbeing benefits from mindful meditation and prayer. Some of the best are very recent spectroscopic documentation studies of the effect of sustained spiritual practices.
Not sure how you jumped to the conclusion that I am not a scientist. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 3:17:49 PM | sombient:
Very informative studies. I like the SpREUK-P 1.1 tool to figure out the level of religious engagement.
I don't doubt prayer's correlation with healing. I won't jump to the conclusion that god did it. To that end, I'm not amazed that meditation has effect on increasing the quality of life of folks with cancer.
It just doesn't have a strong causal link.
I tried to tack this all on with another post, POF doesn't want to let me
Some interesting studies, since you got me reading.
Does religious activity improve health outcomes? A critical review of the recent literature. Coruh B, Ayele H, Pugh M, Mulligan T. Geriatrics and Extended Care Service Line, Hunter Holmes McGuire VA Medical Center and Virginia Commonwealth University Medical Center, Richmond, VA.
ABSTRACT OBJECTIVE: Many Americans use religious activity to cope with stressful life events. Our goal was to review systematically the recent medical literature to assess the role of religion in health outcomes. DATA SOURCES: We conducted a comprehensive literature search using MEDLINE to identify studies published in the English language between January 1999 and June 2003 describing the effect of religion on health outcomes. The search strategy used the medical subject headings (MeSH) of religion; religion AND medicine; religion OR intercessory prayer; prayer; prayer therapy; religious rites; faith; medicine, traditional; religiosity; religion AND psychology; and religion AND health. STUDY SELECTION: Religious, but not spiritual, interventions were selected for inclusion. Thus, papers describing interventions such as yoga, meditation, acupuncture, and qigong were excluded. Manuscripts describing randomized controlled trials, clinical trials, and partnerships with faith-based organizations were included. DATA EXTRACTION: We found five randomized controlled trials, four clinical trials, and seven faith-based partnerships that describe the impact of religious intervention on health outcomes. Papers were analyzed by four reviewers using a modified Delphi technique to reach consensus. DATA SYNTHESIS: Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease. CONCLUSIONS: Religious activity may improve health outcomes.
Explore (NY). 2005 May;1(3):186-91. PMID: 16781528 ----------------
May, not will.
My specific beef is against 'Intercessory prayer', but from what I've read of the current literature, its a lot harder to test then I would have thought. Found a study that supports it.
The effect of intercessory prayer on wound healing in nonhuman primates. Lesniak KT.
Department of Psychology, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA, USA.
ABSTRACT OBJECTIVES: This study was performed to examine the effects of intercessory prayer (IP) on wound healing and related physiological and behavioral factors in nonhuman primates. DESIGN: Twenty-two bush babies (Otolemur garnettii) with chronic self-injurious behavior (SIB) were stratified by wound severity and matched by total wound area. The animals were then randomized to IP and L-tryptophan or L-tryptophan only for treatment of SIB and related wounds. The IP intervention was conducted in a double-blind, randomized manner. Prayer was conducted daily for 4 weeks. Initiation of prayer was coincident with the first day of L-tryptophan administration. Physiological and behavioral variables were assessed at baseline and end of study. RESULTS: Following IP/L-tryptophan treatment, prayer-group animals had a reduction in wound size compared to non-prayer animals (P=.028). Prayer-group animals had a greater increase in red blood cells (P=.006), hemoglobin (P=.01), and hematocrit (P=.018); a greater reduction in both mean corpuscular hemoglobin (P=.023) and corpuscular volume (P=.008); and a reduction in wound grooming (P=.01) and total grooming behaviors (P=.04) than non-prayer-group animals. CONCLUSIONS: The results of this study are consistent with prior human trials of IP effectiveness, but suggest IP-induced health improvements may be independent of confounds associated with human participants. Findings may provide direction for study of the mechanisms of IP-induced health improvements in both human and animal models.
Altern Ther Health Med. 2006 Nov-Dec;12(6):42-8. PMID: 1713198
Then you run across this
Just another drug? A philosophical assessment of randomised controlled studies on intercessory prayer. Turner DD.
Department of Philosophy, Connecticut College, 270 Mohegan Avenue, New London, CT 06320, USA. derek.turner@conncoll.edu
ABSTRACT The empirical results from recent randomised controlled studies on remote, intercessory prayer remain mixed. Several studies have, however, appeared in prestigious medical journals, and it is believed by many researchers, including apparent sceptics, that it makes sense to study intercessory prayer as if it were just another experimental drug treatment. This assumption is challenged by (1) discussing problems posed by the need to obtain the informed consent of patients participating in the studies; (2) pointing out that if the intercessors are indeed conscientious religious believers, they should subvert the studies by praying for patients randomised to the control groups; and (3) showing that the studies in question are characterised by an internal philosophical tension because the intercessors and the scientists must take incompatible views of what is going on: the intercessors must take a causation-first view, whereas the scientists must take a correlation-first view. It therefore makes no ethical or methodological sense to study remote, intercessory prayer as if it were just another drug.
J Med Ethics. 2006 Aug;32(8):487-90. PMID: 16877631 ------------ and this
Compromised ethical principles in randomised clinical trials of distant, intercessory prayer. Hobbins PG.
University of Sydney, Australia.
ABSTRACT The effects of distant, intercessory prayer on health outcomes have been studied in a range of randomised, blinded clinical trials. However, while seeking the evidentiary status accorded this 'gold standard' methodology, many prayer studies fall short of the requirements of the World Medical Association's Declaration of Helsinki for the ethical conduct of trials involving human subjects. Within a sample of 15 such studies published in the medical literature, many were found to have ignored or waived key ethical precepts, including adequate standards of care, patient confidentiality and informed consent. Prayer was considered in most studies to pose negligible or no risk to subjects, despite the fact that no clear mechanism of action nor any safety monitoring procedures were described. As a result, many studies did not meet basic ethical standards required of clinical trials of biophysical interventions, making application of their results ethically problematic. If investigators wish their data to adequately inform the use or rejection of intercessory prayer to improve health, these shortcomings should be addressed in future studies.
J Bioeth Inq. 2005;2(3):142-52 PMID: 16578941 | |
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Mr H2O
| Joined: 10/31/2006 Msg: 110 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 3:54:30 PM | Maybe the old USSR got it right : In 1918 the property of all religious faiths and denominations was nationalized. All the money wasted on religion might just eliminate our national debt in the USA. Political science is a science, right ??? | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 4:44:04 PM | I don't understand how intercessionary prayer would work on nonhuman primates. I can understand how recitation of words that constitute a "prayer experiment" might not work, especially if the target isn't praying along with the nontarget subjects (Harvard Medical School and other less recent prayer induced healing studies).
Now, lets get down to the brass tacks of what prayer itself does. We know that short-term prayer has some positive effects in mitigating acute stress and pain.
What we're interested in, however, are the benefits from adoption of meditation and prayer as a lifelong, or longterm, health habit. How to noninvasively measure it, how to validate the measurements, and how to correlate the measurements against other known measures of our target parameters and their physiological effects.
First, we need to read up a little on the spectroscopic methods: PET, SPECT and fMRI.
Functional and structural neuroimaging has gained tremendous popularity to localize brain-areas related to neuropsychiatry disorders, their metabolic status, drug-receptor docking etc. to evaluate the underlying emotional and cognitive processing and also to set relevant treatment plan in the concerned illnesses. PET, SPECT and fMRI are popular methods, practiced in psychiatric research either alone or in combination.
PET studies are important in chemical and physiological brain imaging as it can detect in-vivo brain metabolism, disturbances in cerebral blood flow and glucose metabolism (McClure et al, 1998). Selective PET studies of recent past have shown that alike normal subjects in schizophrenics, orbitofrontal cortex, amygdala, right temporal pole are activated during processing sadness but no activation of amygdala while viewing angry faces (Blair et al, 1999), fear is processed in the central gray matter of midbrain, bilaterally in the hypothalamus, thalamus, left striatum, right and left anterior cingulated and right prefrontal cortex (Fischer et al, 2000), pleasant emotion is processed in the ventral striatum, midbrain, amygdala, orbitofrontal cortex, and ventral prefrontal cortex (Blood et al, 2001).
Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) is another useful technique to analyze the cerebral areas at the cellular level, their interconnectivities, blood-oxygen level dissociation, drug paradigms, and intermediate phenotypes in search of genes involved in the underlying mental illnesses (Callicott and Weinberger, 1999). Studies using fMRI has found that auditory emotions (e.g. threat word listening) in the right handed subjects involve the left posterior cingulated gyrus (Maddock et al, 1997), facial recognition memory for known faces are processed in the right middle temporal gyrus and left prefrontal cortex, for unknown faces right middle occipital cortex, for happy faces limbic structure as a whole are activated and no activation for sad face viewing (Philips et al, 1998).
Combined studies using PET and fMRI have found that during emotional processing, medial prefrontal cortex is principally activated in the schizophrenic brain alike normal subjects (Phan et al., 2002).
PET, SPECT and fMRI combined study by Kucharska et al, (2001) have observed that posterior temporal cortex, orbitalfrontal cortex, amygdaloid nucleus and insula are the chief areas of emotional processing in the schizophrenic as well as normal brain.
What is SPECT? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECT
and a nice little tutorial: http://www.physics.ubc.ca/~mirg/home/tutorial/tutorial.html
OK, so the above studies are conducted on subjects that are given an activating compound that becomes localized in the brain, in grey matter. These compounds allow neurophysiologists to study structural and functional aspects of the subjects brain under various stimulus events.
Thats important, because we want to know what the brain is doing while we are engaged in mindful prayer and meditation. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 7:17:57 PM | The most notable issue I see in this thread, is the very one suffered by Pseudo-science, and pretty much ANY relationship ever made between the natural world and a faith or religion:
A positive correlation DOES NOT equal a cause and effect relationship.
Sneezing when the sun shines and not when it's raining doesn't mean you're allergic to sunlight. It could be because it's July and you have hay fever, and rain cuts down on pollen in the air. Feeling better after taking any supplement or medication also does not mean the medication is responsible. Morphine can make you feel good, but it won't heal your broken limb.
Folk remedies and traditional medicines may confuse correlation with cause, but they generally have a large amount of science involved - vis, years or generations of experimentation with reproduceable results. Some of the explanations may be a bit...questionable. This might be a case of definitions. For instance, "chi" and "meridian lines" are fairly useless concepts in western science and medicine, but if you accept them as sets of specific and defineable traits [even if we haven't figured out what those traits are], then they are at least testable concepts. Science or not, though, there is often a real cause and effect. That is what is later determined with more certainty by more modern scientific techniques.
ID, creationism, and all the religious connections fail in one crucial way: they cite a cause which cannot itself be proven to exist! There are many gray areas. They begin with biology: living things are notoriously complex. Regardless of the rules, unexpected results will occur because not every factor CAN be accounted for. In biology, the saying is "The organism is always right". Social sciences, psychology, and psychiatry are even more gray. They tend to deal with more mental processes, which are harder to quantify and define. So long as the attempt is made to provide the best predictable and testable explanation for the observations, science is being done. Finding the best facts to fit the explanation is NOT science. It can, however be a valuable PART of science, if it is used as a means to define and develop a testable hypothesis.
Where prayer is concerned, the value of prayer can be tested and hypothesized upon, and correlations shown. If a correlation is shown, the question "why" is likely to remain for some time. For the person who questioned the value of animals as prayer subjects - it seems obvious to me. From our perspective, animals do not understand our motives, our language, the nature of our tests, our faiths...but they CAN experience most or all of the same benefits and problems we can. This should make them ideal subjects for prayer experiments, as we have no reason to believe there will be a placebo effect. They won't know they're being prayed for, they will have no idea what prayer is, and they will have no expectations. Any significant differences from the control would SEEM to have only one possible cause [but see also my comment on the complexity of life]. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 8:14:50 PM | Sillyros, I did read your whole post and I know you were agreeing with me. I addressed three people in my monsterous message and I had to have a finale in there and that last part was a summation to all in order to reinforce the idea that coral calcium is not necessarily pseudoscience and could well yet have hardcore scientific value to it that just has not yet been discovered nor researched. Like I said before that is most of my crusade in this whole thread.
I just wish if people do not see the science in some item that they place it on hold rather than down it saying the science is against it. This happens by people everyday all the time from my personal experiences. Also by making people aware of this -- this metaphorical question mark dangling as if mystically levitating in the air -- hopefully I will encourage more people to DESIRE the science to be done rather than having lingering questions. I believe it will better all people and the field of science itself. Plus it will refine and quicken the methods we use in order to do these kinds of chemical analyses. It is always the desire that encourages mass production techniques and mass production lowers prices. The metaphor is slightly off base but I believe the concepts follow over to chemistry.
You have to admit in our day of such miraculous science it is almost embarassing to have unexplained supplements out there that do have such a following of good beliefs by people. I would like to see this move from being anecdotal to scientific more quickly. Right now I don't see any ready infrastructure for that. I sometimes wonder why the herb and supplement companies do not get together and try to form such a non profit institute to do the necessary science on their products but they are in such a disadvantaged position. Are certain pseudosciences being held down?? I wonder.
If you watch the progression of medicines from start to finish you see that very few meds are ever just synthesized by humankind without us learning from nature somehow. We are not that bright nor advanced. Usually nature 'invents' the chemical and pseudoscience often leads to the compound but it takes a drug company to capitalize on all this.
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/10/2007 8:52:03 PM |
Where prayer is concerned, the value of prayer can be tested and hypothesized upon, and correlations shown. If a correlation is shown, the question "why" is likely to remain for some time.
Not that much longer. If researchers can isolate where in the brain it is occurring, they are one step closer to identifying the causation. Progress! | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/11/2007 10:44:18 AM | Random, re: msg 122,
This may be more a matter of word choice rather than actually a misunderstanding of the word "science", but in that post it at least sounds like you're using "science" as a synonym for "value". An item can have value and be medically effective without having yet been verified as such by the scientific method. I'm sure there are numerous instances of this right now, considering how many things are out there. Their use and recommendation is not pseudoscience, though it can still be labeled deception when the person recommending it does not really believe it works.
Now, if claims are made that the proper science has been done and that the results support the claims made for the item, then it falls into the pseudoscience category. This is, of course, assuming that there was dishonesty, negligence, or incompetence in the testing of the item and/or the reporting of the results, or if it was never really done at all. So, whether it's classified as pseudoscience or not is partly determined by presentation. If a child's mother tells her child to put butter on sunburn, she is not practicing pseudoscience, though she is wrong.
As far as having companies form organizations to expedite the process of developing and approving drugs, supplements, etc., I think that's begging for large amounts of corruption. For the record, I'm all for speeding up this process, but I think it needs to be handled by organizations that in no way represent companies. | |
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Mr H2O
| Joined: 10/31/2006 Msg: 116 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/11/2007 1:50:44 PM | Perhaps we overlook the obvious folks
Consumers spend about $30 billion per year trying to lose weight
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has brought 150 cases of deceptive advertising over the years against providers of diet pills, potions, and devices, and against commercial diet clinics.
The truth is that if there really is a miracle cure, 64.5 percent of adult Americans would not be overweight
Why not focus on exposing the shysters, cheaters, and outright frauds instead of arguing over stupid crap like prayer and religion ??????
Maybe I should just let all the stupid, idiotic, dumbf*cks, waste their hard earned money on stuff that doesn't work and never will.
Lord knows people will buy just about anything if it's marketed with slick advertising | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/11/2007 3:21:16 PM | | I agree, H20, to a degree. However, I don't think it's exactly rare that people who are actually intelligent fall for marketing schemes. Sometimes ignorance (and we are all ignorant in some areas) and psychological factors make people who are otherwise reasonable susceptible to being fooled. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/11/2007 5:49:15 PM |
They'd just rather do anything than go on a diet and exercise.
Ahh. The real issue: temporary change of habit is just that - temporary. The weight comes off, but will not stay off unless those habits become permanent.
Thats why most dieters end of regaining the weight. There of course, is the other reason: that decreasing caloric intake and increasing the use of stimulants to increase fat cell metabolism has a sticky bit to it. When calorie intake goes up and exercise goes down, the body begins to store excess calories, just as its programmed to do - with a minor glitch. The now over stimulated fat cells (called 'adipocytes') are now more apt to store excess calories than they were previously. Thats what happens when you play with adrenergic receptors on adipocytes. You screw with insulin sensitivity.
Ooops. Stimulating norepinephrine release in the hypothalamus with popular diet pills, can have an unfortunate rebound effect on insulin sensitivity in muscle and adipose tissue after the 'diet' ends.
Wanna lose weight? Modify calorie intake just below that required for normal metabolism and slowly ramp up energy exertions by a mixture of cardiovascular and strength training (to hit all energy pathways, anaerobic and aerobic).
Make a permanent change in lifestyle habits, if you want to keep the weight off.
Cheers!! | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/12/2007 8:02:05 AM | Hmm . . . should have said *change* your diet and exercise, lol.
This is one reason that drug researchers have turned away from stimulants in the development of weight loss drugs. There are a few currently in phase II that have no rebound when withdrawn. Off the cuff, oleoyl-estrone (OE) comes to mind. Nice thing about OE is that it produces more weight loss than other drugs produced to date, and the method of use is cycle on, cycle off.
The failed drug Axokine also had property of no rebound weight regain upon drug withdrawal. The problem was neutralizing antibodies that rendered the drug useless after the first couple of months in around 70 percent of the patients.
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/13/2007 1:23:53 PM | Also with the diet/weight issue I believe the real problem there is that different types of bodies respond to different diets. That is part of why some diets seem to work well for some people but not for others. You have to remember we had ancestors who spent generation after generation evolving more closely to the land/sea conditions they lived in close contact with. At least from what I have read that is the theory.
For the record, I'm all for speeding up this process, but I think it needs to be handled by organizations that in no way represent companies.
Right, that's ideal. You mean like the Associated Press is to the tv news and radio news? That's sort of the model I was thinking of, they deliver info yet they are non profit. Wide ranging... I am not totally sure how the financial end works but the system obviously works for them. I would like to see a similar model be used for judging a supplements effectiveness. | |
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Mr H2O
| Joined: 10/31/2006 Msg: 122 | |
| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/13/2007 5:01:29 PM | The FDA definitely has problems, should be scrapped and re-built in a different form.
Many years ago , when I was an avid national Judo tournament competitor, the topic of DMSO came up on the training circuit. Judo is a hardcore contact sport. DMSO - Dimethyl sulfoxide , predominantly is used as a topical analgesic. A tremendous amount of controversy surrounded DMSO because it came from the veterinary field as a liniment for horses. The news show 60 minutes did a piece on it. We trained like insane animals, went to war in the tournaments and used the stuff. I can fully understand an athletes mentality to train thru the pain of an injury. Now I'm older, wiser, and learned to just back off. Rest,ice, compression, elevation.
Peer review......damn. More than 40,000 articles on its chemistry have appeared in scientific journals, which, in conjunction with thousands of laboratory studies, provide strong evidence of a wide variety of properties. Worldwide, some 11,000 articles have been written on its medical and clinical implications in 125 countries.
Will DMSO ever sit on the shelves of pharmacies in this country as a legal prescriptive , pretty hard to say.
My personal opinion : a.) far tooo many judicial loopholes to rip people off, many deserve to be in jail b.) not enough financial resources to truly help people who need pharmaceuticals c.) people need to read more, and not think their government will protect them d.) not everything needs to be a quick fix, nature has plenty of chemicals
Being Fat - eat less, unplug the TV, and go do something physical --- It works ! | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/13/2007 5:08:51 PM | DMSO is an interesting topic to bring up. When I was ski racing years ago, this came up as common treatment for nerve damage, including such things as spinal injuries. I saw the FDA mentioned, but I don't think the FDA is directly relevant here. DMSO is medically available in the USA [ie, FDA-approved], but only veterinary-approved in Canada [ie, not CFDA-approved]. Professional athletes go south for treatment, with DMSO reputably reducing scar tissue formation as well as allowing nerves to heal which wouldn't normally.
FDA approval comes quicker than CFDA approval does, but there's always a tradeoff. As I've never had money or cause to worry about it, I haven't looked into it further. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/13/2007 6:00:13 PM | As far as I can tell, DMSO is a potent free radical scavenger. The big problem is that its also a potent solvent, and it swells cell membranes. Not sure what that does. There are some problems with sulfuroxide toxicity in certain respiratory (energy) systems in mitochondria.
Effect of dimethyl sulphoxide on oxidative stress, activation of mitogen activated protein kinase (MAPK) and necrosis caused by thioacetamide in the rat liver. Eur J Pharmacol. 2007 Mar 12; [Epub ahead of print]
Thioacetamide (400 mg/kg body weight, i.p.) was administered to rats. After 12 h the activity of plasma glutamate-oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT) and glutamate-pyruvate transaminase (GPT) was significantly higher than that of the control group, and after 24 h plasma GOT and GPT activities strongly increased. These results indicated that the necrotic process was initiated at about 12 h and developed thereafter. By co-administration of dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO, 18 and 1 h before, and 8 h after administration of thioacetamide: each time, 2.5 ml/kg body weight, p.o.), plasma GOT and GPT were significantly decreased and were even comparable to the control group, showing that DMSO totally prevented the necrotic action of thioacetamide. After 12 and 24 h of thioacetamide administration, the hepatic level of vitamin C, the most sensitive chemical indicator of oxidative stress, decreased significantly, indicating that oxidative stress was significantly enhanced 12 h after thioacetamide intoxication and thereafter. DMSO totally restored the liver vitamin C level, demonstrating that DMSO effectively ameliorated the oxidative stress caused by thioacetamide, resulting in the prevention of necrosis of the liver. Phosphorylated c-Jun NH(2)-terminal kinase (JNK) significantly increased transiently 12 h after treatment with thioacetamide. These results indicated that oxidative stress and the activation of JNK took place almost simultaneously. Phosphorylated extracellular signal-related kinase (ERK) 2 was significantly increased 6-12 h after thioacetamide injection. Phosphorylated p38 MAPK (mitogen activated protein kinase) was significantly decreased 24 h after administration of thioacetamide. DMSO treatment inhibited the change of these MAPKs by thioacetamide, corresponding with the prevention of the liver necrosis as well as the attenuation of oxidative stress.
This one should rock your socks: looks like its metabolized to a potent anticancer drug.
Dimethyl sulfoxide to vorinostat: development of this histone deacetylase inhibitor as an anticancer drug. Marks PA and R Breslow. Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York. Nat Biotechnol. 2007 Jan;25(1):84-90.
In our quest to understand why dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) can cause growth arrest and terminal differentiation of transformed cells, we followed a path that led us to discover suberoylanilide hydroxamic acid (SAHA; vorinostat (Zolinza)), which is a histone deacetylase inhibitor. SAHA reacts with and blocks the catalytic site of these enzymes. Extensive structure-activity studies were done along the path from DMSO to SAHA. SAHA can cause growth arrest and death of a broad variety of transformed cells both in vitro and in tumor-bearing animals at concentrations not toxic to normal cells. SAHA has many protein targets whose structure and function are altered by acetylation, including chromatin-associated histones, nonhistone gene transcription factors and proteins involved in regulation of cell proliferation, migration and death. In clinical trials, SAHA has shown significant anticancer activity against both hematologic and solid tumors at doses well tolerated by patients. A new drug application was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration for vorinostat for treatment of cutaneous T-cell lymphoma. More potent analogs of SAHA have shown unacceptable toxicity.
The idea isn't to dismantle and rebuild the FDA. Its to improve their ability to understand the science behind the reports they evaluate. | |
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| Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science Posted: 4/13/2007 6:54:48 PM |
DMSO is an interesting topic to bring up. When I was ski racing years ago, this came up as common treatment for nerve damage, including such things as spinal injuries. I saw the FDA mentioned, but I don't think the FDA is directly relevant here. DMSO is medically available in the USA [ie, FDA-approved], but only veterinary-approved in Canada [ie, not CFDA-approved]. Professional athletes go south for treatment, with DMSO reputably reducing scar tissue formation as well as allowing nerves to heal which wouldn't normally.
In what form? A cream?
H2O... Did it work? What did it do, speed up healing?
paint thinner.... did you know spirits of turpentine was also sold to help sore muscles. I found an old old glass bottle of the stuff and rubbed it on my sore shoulders after some woodworking and boy did I get looks from people when they smelled that on me. You want an anti-cologne? I think I found it!
Let me be clear about something here. I do NOT want to see the FDA dismantled. I know it has its problems. I want to see the herb and supplement companies start their own similar organization, hopefully building a better organization. Eventually the FDA will take cues from it if it can be done smarter. But beyond that I see plenty of benefits to a competitive relationship. Competition speeds things along. But mostly I would just like to see better science applied to all the supplements and herbs like I mentioned in past messages. Move the science along! | |
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