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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 8:10:21 AM | Yeah, 1simon, because all it takes to raise a child is money....and I'm sure she's not doing her part.
~sarcasm off~ | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 8:49:20 AM | Crane man aka Saint Man self cannonized, and self proclaimed obvious better Dad than any here and potentially in the entire free world:
All I will say is I don't think these people are looking for sympathy. I think they were going to attempt to have discussion about their feelings maybe. There was no need to try and demean others to make yourself look better. That's all I'll say and oh yeah:
See you when I get back from Disney World next week. My son and I will be having a great time. Together, alone making memories! | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:23:33 AM |
so I agreed that if I gave him a list of things our 1 and a half yr old needed he would buy those things for her..that way he would know that she is getting what she needed and I wasn't waisting the money like he thought I would ....so I called him up and told him that she needed winter boots..he refused to buy them
I would assume that part of the payment is considered Spousal Support. Not all of it considered Child Support. Spousal Support is much different then Child Support. And allot of the time since it's the same person paying both of them, they get a little mixed up.
I wanted set up in the agreement that my EX could not move more then 2-5km's from me... Then I could see it being a possibility that I ensure I provide her with a place to live. As I am putting unrealistic proposition for her to afford on the table.
CS as it stands right now is calculated on the idea of if the NCP were living in the home, they would be contributing X number of dollars in a month towards everything. And they base it on income because it's reasonable to consider if you have more income, you would probably be spending more income...
Now the only part that's flawed in this whole argument are the spending habits of people. To simply make the assumption because I make 100K a year I would be spending more then someone who makes 30K a year is simply unfair.
I may be a thrift shopper... I may decide to live on very little... Take vacations camping in the summer.. Whatever.. point being I know people who are very well off who make under 40K a year, simply due to their life choices... And I know people who make 70K a year or higher... But are always broke... Again life style choices.
If instead stop the idea of using income as the sole factor... And instead look at real average costs of the child(s) then I think we are leveling the playing field.. As it would then stop allot of the NCP's feeling they are supporting their EX instead of supporting a child.
Having Guidelines is nice... As they are fairly accurate, and inline with costing out stuff in the lower ranges... However they are still solely based on income of the NCP. And take nothing else into account.
Doing some math here... I'll think about 1 child and 1 parent for this example.. And living in my area of Langley BC Canada. Average rent for a 2bdrm is about 800 a month. Food for 2 people in an average month 400 (including stuff like ordering Pizza here and there ext..) Hydro-Gas 150. Phone 50 bucks.. Thats a realistic in home comfortable basic living cost
Now overall th NCP should only be required to cover 1/4 of this cost... Or half of the child's expenses... Doing the math on the numbers I have provided that would work out to roughly 350a month is what the average NCP should be paying. And this number could vary depending on the area in which you live.
Stuff like Fuel costs for a car I think are negligible.. Even the car itself.. It's something that you might have even if you didn't have the child.. And it could be easily argued that you could be using the bus to get around... Also clothing, I know children need clothing, as they are forever outgrowing stuff, and wearing out stuff.. But this maybe something the NCP can choose to buy on their own, with the child.. And have some input..
Most of the NCP's I know who don't like to pay CS is mainly because they don't like the idea that they are simply being told they have to pay without any judgment as to how the money is spent... And that if they attempt to make more money, to maybe be able to do a few extra things with their child, or their life... They instead have to fork over more money every month, again with no real say.
I did like the idea proposed about setting up an account in the child's name, and putting the CP as the signor on the account.. But allowing for random audits within reason of the money being spent from it.. I think that could be a realistic compromise. As if you use Interac here in Canada it tells you exactly where you spent the money on the statement. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 1:29:10 PM | | Singleman, thankyou for the recognition, I am due to pick up my award at a ceremony next week. I wasn't trying to belittle people, I just get sick of NCPs trying to justify not paying support for their kids. It really burns my butt. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 1:59:41 PM | I don't think there is any adult (ok, RESPONSIBLE adult) that doesn't agree to providing support for their children. If you are saying that you shouldn't have to help pay for the costs of your own children, you deserve to get smacked across the teeth.. seriously.
I just think there is a definate problem with determining child support. States try to make it fair, but in the end, they always have some sliding scale based on how much the NCP makes in a month. I think what pisses NCPs off the most is the stories of guys getting dragged over the coals because the more they make, the more they pay.
How about if you set a cap for child support. For every kid, you pay no more than $500 a month. If there is other circumstances (like medical/health issues) maybe you add an additional $200 a month to cover those costs. Maybe you have an adjustment based on the location (+/- the Cost of Living).
This would force the CPs into being responsible with their money. And would prevent the mentality of "Hey, I was married to a doctor, so I should be getting a HUGE child support payment..." | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 2:22:13 PM | | Interesting idea John and I do agree that the CPs need to be responsible with their money. But I think that the intent is to give the kid the type of life that they would have had if the Parents were still together. May not be realistic but it is the best we have at the moment and both parties should at least honour their responsibilities. Unfortunately alot of people will not do this and will not report pay raises so we need a system to try and keep people somewhat honest. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 2:22:37 PM | | In some US states, the guidelines are only applicable up to a certain income level..beyond that, there is judicial discretion. While not a 'hard cap' it recognizes what you say..... 30% of an average salary vs. 30% of $10million would be way beyond the amount required to support a child (yes that is the extreme, I know) | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 2:40:41 PM | alot of moms feel as if the money should be used as family support moreso than child support; because her well being is tied to the kid, if she can't pay rent or can't put food on the table then money will go to that.
which makes some sense; the problem i have is when a mom who can't ever pay for her kid deems herself a better parent, if u have cust but can't provide for the kid..maybe u can't have or should not have custody. I say this cause all the guys i know who pay it always have to lend money or give money for other exp; an my point is if she can't afford her kid w/child support and constantly needs ur help, what will she do if u can't send her extra..or whatever.
i think both parents should have to work...its a team effort; esp if parents have the kid equally and even if mom ahs the kid all the time she needs to work. The money sent is based on both parents working and sharing exp, not one parent depending on the money to pay rent/daycare/etc. Sometimes it can't be avoided and its just that tough..trust me i have friends in really bad situations; but even they agree both parents should work and the money for kids should go to kids. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 5:06:41 PM | Hi. Although I tried to figure this out from both perspectives, I can't!!! Before I explain, I am a single parent and do NOT receive any support of any kind. I am the sole provider for my 7-yr old daughter. Being a single mom, working part-time, and going to school full-time is a struggle. So, I know what it is like to be FLAT BROKE.
Child support is based upon both parents incomes. (And, yes, I do know how to calculate it as I am in school to be a paralegal.) The calculation is based upon the "combined" income of the two parents, and then split accordingly. The Mom contributes X dollars and the father contributes X dollars. There are other considerations, as to who has custody, etc. CHILD SUPPORT IS TO COVER ALL EXPENSES TO THE CHILD. This includes personal items for the child (clothing, diapers, etc.), but also is used to buy groceries, pay rent, utilities, etc. It is calculated "pretending the two parents are together," so that the child has the same lifestyle he/she would if the parents were together. Child support is for the child, but what some fail to realize is that supporting a child is not just buying him/her clothing. It is putting groceries in their mouth and making sure there is a roof over their head, making sure there is enough gas in the car to make it to school, etc.
What if I didn't pay "child support" per se, for a month? We would be evicted, no heat, no food, etc. And, CSB would have my daughter. Something to think about.............. Just my perspective. I have a lot of male friends (some of which don't even have children) that think it is awful the amount of child support men pay and also if they don't pay (or fall behind), sometimes "parenting time" (visitation) is taken away. Well, with my previous example.....If I didn't provide a roof for my daughter, groceries, clothing, etc....I can guarantee CSB (Children Services) would take away my "parenting time" as well................ | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 5:31:12 PM | OK...there was NO WAY I could read all the posts without getting pissed off all over again!
My daughter's "sperm donor" quit college one class prior to graduation because the court ordered him to pay $50 a friggin month!! He, then, started living with friends and cancelled all accts, he has been on the run ever since. Although, registered with the CSE, they have made NO attempt to locate this fool....I mean a REAL attempt. He is over $15,000 in arrears and my daughter will never see a dime.
She became critically ill at 7 mos old and I left a career to care for her. She had no immune system and I had to wear masks and gloves just to care for her. For 2 yrs, we never left our house unless going to the emergency room.
My point in saying this is....I NEVER depended on his $50 a month (what a joke) because I had a comfortable career. Then, after she became ill...I NEVER depended on his a$$ for anything at all. Unfortunately, I had no choice but to seek assistance. (I'm sure there will be comments on this as well) This fool is on the run for what??? Noone seems to be chasing him!! ROFL
It does not matter (CP or NCP) where the money comes from...if it is truly used for the child's welfare. So this entire topic and where it has lead is sad to me. Why should either parent be concerned about which one is paying the most if the child is the main priority??
I think this world has been grovelling for more ever since it's founding father's. Noone seems to ever have enough and constantly blame other's for what they think they deserve or are "entitled" to!!
Me, personally, I never could see the forest for the trees until I was placed into a situation where I lost all the materialistic bs.
My daughter is growing up despite me or her father. It just seems to always work out that way. What a blessing from God!!!
Hmmm...I think I got off the topic a little...sorry...what was the question???  | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:02:31 PM | ^^^ sidebar - I doubt anyone would have an issue witha parent having no choice but to quit their job to caree for a sick child, and require social assistance. In my view, this is EXACTLY what it should be for.
Noone seems to ever have enough and constantly blame other's for what they think they deserve or are "entitled" to!!
I wish more people have achieved that clarity (albeit without having the ordeal you must have went through). | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 10:05:31 PM | It is calculated "pretending the two parents are together," so that the child has the same lifestyle he/she would if the parents were together.
This is great in theory, but there are now two households. This arguement doesn't hold true for NCP's who completely remove themselves from the picture spending no time with their children, but there are plenty of NCP's who are required to provide that same standard of living in their own home less the second income, less the government subsidies, less child support, and less the ability to claim their child as a dependent. Then again... no, NCP's are not required to provide that same standard of living... they are expected to diminish the standard of living in their own home.
Now, what the following requires is for people to take into consideration that not every NCP completely abandons their children. In most situations, children spend time at both homes. If support payments are based on "pretending the two parents are together", both households theoretically should have an equal standard of living. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 10:36:35 PM | Wow! Crane no hard feelings just trying to make you see the other side of what abuses and gouging takes place out there. I have no problem giving my son the best of everything and sacraficing for his sake but it really sux to have to sell the house I wanted to die in. It all sux that I cannot bring in a mate into my life who would not be "put off" by the current arrangement especially given the circumstances of income etc. Trust me my "Ex" has harassed ladies out of my life through her foulness!
I agree with all of the follow up posts. There should be a cap and if a CP cannot keep a stable environment they should consider what is best for the child but again they put their own needs and wants in front of their kids which I consider a most selfish act. There are some very well thought out solutions it is too bad they are never considered. One thing I would say is in my state they monitor me through the tax system on a bi-weekly or quarterly basis, there is no hope of escape. My whole conflict with the every time I get a raise she does and the idea "IF" we were together theory. We are not together and if we were she would not need nearly the cash. I have a company and I work basically 2 jobs and make a decent living but that can change in a day if contracts are pulled due to cost cutting, internalizing the work etc. I would like the ability to build a future for my child and for myself but when paying huge amounts out and much higher taxes, I end up with less than 30% of my own cash. That just sux. I went to college, ate tuna fish, macaroni & cheese and PB&J for the entire time I was there. I then came out and lived in a 1 room apt or with someone else for the next 8 years to pay off my loans for college. In the meantime, I worked 65+ hours from the day I graduated to now. Did it pay off? Yes! I have just never felt the real benefits.
Now for the ladies who recieve crapola money, none at all or have a deadbeat parent I feel deeply for you. There is nothing worse than looking at your child and telling them Santa didn't have any left or whatever one has to say. That breaks my heart and I see it in the stores every christmas and after Christmas. I also have no idea what it would be like to have a sick child and for that I thank the diety every day, but one thing for certain, no one should look down on anyone who is dealing with that (or for any other reason for that matter) regardless! I also think you should stand proud no matter what you recieve for assistance! I applaud single moms and the character some of you have shown through your examples and yes even you Crane !I admire anyone again who puts their child at the top of the list, steps up and does the right thing. I just do not care for those who abuse the system. If you can't afford one, don't have 5 more!
I have no idea how anyone could walk away from a little life, so full of hope and cheat that child out of a chance to have a full, satisfying, happy & healthy life. Signing rights away is a piece of sheeeeeeeittt in my book! Cowardly etc. People do not think of the effect that will have on the kid in the long run! These are the same pieces of crap that make the system hammer those of us who do stick it out. I do know it's probably hard to envision the spectrum of differences in situations especially if you are one struggling to keep the heat on, it certainly makes my situation seem trivial. | |
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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 115 | |
| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 10:49:04 PM | In response to InteractiveJohn,
Wow....what a great idea!....for the NCP's financial interests!...Hey, why not go one step further... put a CAP on the children's lifestyle, and NCP's can choose what and how much to provide for their kids? Then the NCP can spend "their" money on nice cars....trips to disneyland, expensive presents for the kids (or just keep it all for themselves)...and "win" the better parent contest (that btw...dosen't exist)...I am thinking that the reason there is a guidelines is because the majority of NCP's would do exactly (if even) that! If the NCP who makes alot of money...let's use your eg...a doctor...I am thinking it would be a big shock to his kids when they had to live on a fraction of what they were used to before their parents split up!
CraneMan,
I think you have a really good insight into what it is like to be on both sides of the fence...and from what I have read from you...have always had realized what your #1 priority is since becoming a Father...even as a NCP...You do deserve an award for being such a good parent!....and I suspect you know you have that award already....a lil one who is tucked in bed at home every night!
For those of you who complain and whine about how bad your ex is with money, or doing drugs, drinking, or neglecting to provide the neccessaties of life with "your" money..and use the excuse that the courts aren't fair to NCP's because of the guidelines...I have this to say to you. If you suspect your chil(s) are being neglected...for whatever reason...you have a responsibility as a parent to protect your kids. The courts only make decisions based on fact....so why not protect your child's investment aswell as your own and hire a private investigator to prove the misspending of "your" CP " if the circumstances are as extreme as I have read on here? Supporting a child finacially is only a temporary responsibility parents have...the concern of every parent...NCP and CP's alike should be how to support your kids emotionally...because that is something they will always need. I think some of you should grow up and start looking at the rewards you have to gain instead of the costs you have to finance. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 3/31/2007 11:15:46 PM |
I am thinking it would be a big shock to his kids when they had to live on a fraction of what they were used to before their parents split up!
Then limit it to the income level that the couple was at when they split up...
If a NCP busts their butt at work, gets a college degree, somehow becomes a doctor or lawyer or some other high-paying position... Should the CP who didn't do anything be able to benefit from this?
And don't for a second think that the CP doesn't benefit from increases in child support... In a perfect world, the kids would get nice clothes, plenty of toys, etc... but what generally happens? With more disposable income into the household, everyone in that household benefits. Now the whole household can go out to dinner more, see more movies, etc. Does the child benefit, sure. Does everyone else as well? Damn skippy.
I don't mind financially supporting my child... What I do mind is financially supporting my child's mother, her daughter, and her boyfriend. | |
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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 117 | |
| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 12:13:28 AM | John,
As long as you view things that way...you will stay bitter about what you pay in CP.
If things were to be handled as you propose they should it would create allot more kaos in the system then there is now.
What if you got married again....and under your proposed changes, your lifestyle increased dramatically by not having to adhere to the current guidelines....but your child's lifestlye in comparison was only adequete enough to meet basic needs..being in her Mother's custody?....How would your kid feel about that?...especially if you had a new child or step child who was enjoying the perks because of where they lived or whom they lived with? What I am trying to point out to with my posts is....stop looking at this from your point of view....and start looking at this from your kids point of view...not only now....but how they will look at it as an adult | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 1:10:33 AM | well said babs!
One thing I want to add to it, based on John's post...your child support payments do not support your child's mother, other children and bf's. The amount is what the child's share of ALL household bills would be...that includes vehicle payments, gas etc.... | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 2:08:43 AM | How would your kid feel about that?
So... you are trying to say that I should maintain my life at the same level as his mother's to avoid my child from possibly being jealous?
I don't have a problem paying child support if its to support my child. Plain and simple. But when that child support payment begins to finance the lifestyle of my ex-wife and/or the other people in her household.. I do have a problem with that.
When my ex-wife can't afford to buy shoes for my son, because her boyfriend's truck payment is due... then my child support payment is not being used properly. And I have every right to be pissed off about that.
The amount is what the child's share of ALL household bills would be...that includes vehicle payments, gas etc....
No, thats the whole point of this entire discussion... Its not based on the child's share of all household bills... its based on income. The more I make, the more I pay. | |
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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 120 | |
| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 2:44:28 AM | John,
Your son's lifestyle is based on what his Mother's lifestyle is....they are and cannot be seperate if he lives with her. The problem alot of CP's have is that they choose to see only what they percieve to be a misuse of support. What would make you happy?...seeing your son eat steak every night while his Mother only had KD for supper? Most people need a car to maintain employment...Move on with your own life...and stop foccusing on what your ex is doing....I am sure your son dosen't go to school barefoot....stop being petty and pissed off....it will get you nowhere in the long run | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 8:10:01 AM | stop being petty and pissed off....it will get you nowhere in the long run
I'm not petty and pissed off... I'm just commenting on a topic that I happen to have strong feelings about... This is a discussion about child support... I believe I've given a few good comments and a few suggestions for things that might even out the disparity that does exist sometimes between between a NCP and CP with regards to child support.
I didn't start this thread, nor was I the only one commenting about how sometimes the system pisses me off. Don't single me out as the only NCP that is sometimes resentful of their ex's because we pay what we percieve as an un-equal amount of support every month. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:32:05 AM | | John, I am getting a sense of what you are trying to say, and I do agree with parts of what is getting said. Also bear in mind the NCP, by not having custody, has the option of making as money as they want where the CP is a little more restricted due to responsibilites with the kids. I know in the past I have turned down really high paying jobs because I couldn't be there to raise my son properly, and I can't trust my ex to provide properly and make important decisions. Support should not be capped, but maybe if a Parent is paying higher amounts of support the CP should be required to show where the money is going. If you are paying $600 per month in support, guess what, this covers 1/2 to 3/4 of the monthly costs and should not be accountable, unless it is obvious the kid is going without. But these Parents paying $800 and up a month then maybe the CPs should be required to show where the money goes. And I agree with the other posters that I don't want to find that support payments just bought the EX a new car or trips alone with the new SO. Support is intended for the child and the expenses associated with raising a child. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:37:29 AM | | I fully agree with you crane man - the fact is, kids are expensive to raise, and support payments go towards lots of things such as making sure there is a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs and clothes on their backs - along with all the other stuff, sports, recreation, outings, daycare, etc.. - not just a direct payment to the child's bank account for the future. Most NCP's have no clue what is involved in raising a child financially, and appear to feel that the CP's are just lying in wait for that cheque to buy fur coats or sports cars with. I do agree that in some cases there should be accountability for expenses - for example, if the child is looking as though they are not being cared for properly (ie: dirty clothes, always hungry, etc). | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 10:35:26 AM |
Most NCP's have no clue what is involved in raising a child financially.
No, I think that is VERY wrong to assume that. I was involved in raising my son (until he was 6, and his mom divorced me) and my ex-step-daughter (for the whole 10 years we were together)... I know how much it costs to support a whole family...
So don't assume that just because there are deadbeats in this world that walked away when their kids where young, or that because I don't have custody of my son, that I don't know intimately how much it costs and the effort it takes to raise a family.
My ex-wife left me and took the kids with her... Not because I was a deadbeat or a bad father, but because she found another man that she liked better.
Don't make the assumption that just because we don't have physical custody of our children that we are complete idiots being selfish and greedy. Because, in most cases, thats VERY far from the truth. | |
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| Child Support OR Family Support
Posted: 4/1/2007 11:07:07 AM |
So I am in a position to say SUPPORT YOUR KIDS AND QUIT WHINING! If award s for support are exceeding $800 per months per kid, how much does the NCP make? If you make $200k a year then you should be paying more and giving your kid the best life you can give. Maybe your kid can go to a private school and get a better education and maybe they become a Doctor or whatever.
So my ex and her son should be awarded enough, almost $5000 a month, so that he can go to private school and get a better education, maybe become a doctor or whatever, while any child of my own that I may have in the coming years will have to go without those things? Where the heck is the logic in that!? I can MAYBE see it if he was my child.
I will fully admit that I got myself into the situation, but come on... shouldn't there be some kind of a cap? At $200k a year, that's going to translate to roughly $1700 in child support and $4100 in alimony. What the heck did my ex ever do to deserve that? All she ever did was sit at home and complain about life, and how I wasn't making enough money amongst other things, and I finally got sick of dealing with it day in and day out for the final 5 years of my marriage. Even making $200k a year, my net after taxes and alimony / child support would be less than hers. At $300k it would be less, at $400k it would be less. Maybe I'm just not seeing something here because I'm too close to the situation, but I just cannot comprehend that people think that this is just. Why is it that I have to provide more income to an ex and her son, than I would have to raise my own family? Simply because I got married to a woman with a child?
It really is no wonder that a lot of men shy away from women with children. But then of course people say "real men don't mind women with children". You can put me into the category of "not a real man" if you like, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. If I'd been a "not a real man" 7 years ago, I'd be able to provide all the things for my own children that I provide for someone else's.
And as a general note, let's remember something as well - I am paying it. I don't like it, but I'm paying it and will continue to do so because I have been ordered by the court to do so, so I would appreciate not being lumped in with the people who do not pay. | |
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