|
|
|
|
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 4:04:27 PM | SimmahdahnNah
Still missed my point - I don't want private health insurance either!! I will pay direct for services as I get them!!! or I will do without!!
If the cost of any kind of insurance for health care is that my person becomes the property of someone else to control and do with as they wish - then the cost is too high. Money is not the issue! For me - the issue is my natural right to self-determination.
It doesn't even have to do with whether I choose to smoke or drink or weigh 700 pounds or not. It is the right to be free to do those things!
"A free man owns himself. He is free to do damage to himself by eating, drinking, gambling and indulging to excess. If he does so he is certainly a damn fool, and possibly be a damned soul , but if he is forbidden to do so he is not a free man any more than a dog."
Unknown
And what do people who have emphysema and NO access to health care do!
And what do people who have emphysema do who have healthcare but are refused services because they smoke??
And what do never smokers do when they get emphysema? What do they regret?
You talk about fear as if it is a thing that must be avoided. Fear must be challenged in order to be truly free and in order to rise to life's little challenges. A life restricted by fear is an un-lived life. I will not fear the future or my own mortality.
Ships in the harbour are free but that is NOT what ships are built for!
Example - I was raised at a time when woman feared to walk alone or walk at night. I spent years staying home after dark until I realized that I had allowed fear of harm make me a prisoner. I challenged and conquoured my fear. I now walk alone and at night. Sure I risk assault, rape, possibly murder, injury by falls or getting hit by a car that fails to see me. I gained the stars, the soft night air and a personal sense of empowerment.
Considering the number of woman who are assaulted in their own homes - it was an experience and a decision I do not regret.
Yes - I may be one of the smokers who gets emphysema in my old age. But I gained a lifetime of enjoyment, championship, stress relief, energy, weight control, benefits from smoking like decreased risk of parkinson's and alziemers, benefits of avoiding the use of anti-depressents and mood elevators, sleeping pills etc etc.
I am satisfied with this bargain as well. And no - you and anyone else does not have the right to challenge my assessment of the benefits of smoking. I apply this assessment only to myself. I believe that this is what is "best for me" and I am the only one who gets to make that decision.
I am a 51 year old intelligent, educated woman who has been financially independent since I was 15. I have raised 3 children and helped raise 4 grandchildren. I have accepted all the responsibilities of my decisions in every other area of my life and I accept the responsibilities of deciding to smoke as well.
Throughout my life - I have been a never-smoker, smoker, a longterm ex-smoker and a smoker again. I have intensely researched both the benefits and the disadvantages of smoking and I understand the risks. Thank you for the information. I deeply appreciate your assistance with my decision. But it is my decision to make.
I will continue to smoke until I see fit not to smoke and choose differently than I choose today.
"Life is a banquet and some poor sons-of-****s are starving to death" Auntie Mame
In general - in is not the things that we do that cause regret in our twilight years. Most often it is the things we did NOT do. I have a greater fear of failing to live my life out of fear than I have of illness, pain or death.
You buy your drugs from big Pharma and I will buy mine from Big Tobacco! | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 6:02:32 PM |
Last time I checked, Canada wasn't a "Communist country"
Not a communist country but certainly a socialist one when it comes to medical care. There is NO choice but to participate in the system, or at the very least little choice, even if you're willing to pay for it yourself.
Many Canadians who can afford it come to the US to circumvent the system.
[$10k or $15k is] More than what most people make in a year.
If we are including third world countries, I guess you have a point. If we are talking about the US and Canada, the audience of these forums, no. I haven't taken a salary survey, but my guess is that the majority of the people in these forums make significantly more than that. They wouldn't be able to afford computers and internet connections otherwise.
However, that was not my point.
My point was that there should be choice AND a safety net. I agree that all people should have health care, but if I am willing to pay for BETTER health care I want to be able to get it just like I'm able to buy a better car or better house if I want that. Some of it depends on the ability to afford, but some also depends on priorities. I'm sure there are millionaires who will only pay for basic health care and hourly workers who would pay for cadillac health coverage.
 | |
|
e-wok
|
Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 78 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 6:10:22 PM |
Not a communist country but certainly a socialist one when it comes to medical care. There is NO choice but to participate in the system, or at the very least little choice, even if you're willing to pay for it yourself.
Many Canadians who can afford it come to the US to circumvent the system.
We are a socialist country - no doubt, in more ways than health care.
It's what we want.
An many Americans come here under the guise of tourists and claim
for emergency surgery for broken bones and the like occuring across
the border because they lack health care. Millions of dollars of our
tax money is spent on American-health-refugee's. Look after your people
damn it or were gonna have to buid a mout or build a Berlin wall. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 7:35:13 PM | Suzanne.......I do get your point. You are speaking about yourself and the way you want to have it. But you live in a society. When we live in a society, sometimes we have to make sacrifices for the greater good. I guess the alternative would be to go be Grizzly frickin' Adams somewhere...Canada is big enough, I'm sure you could find yourself a bear.
And ewok....who is coming across your border for healthcare????? That's one I've never heard before. | |
|
e-wok
|
Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 80 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 7:47:02 PM |
And ewok....who is coming across your border for healthcare????? That's one I've never heard before.
There was a report in our local paper last month about Americans
coming across the border and checking into our emergency rooms
for treatment but leaving without paying the bill. The unpaid bills
are in the millions...I'll post the article when I find it. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 8:12:01 PM | SimmahDahnNah
Yes I live in a society. A society can vote to have health care and they can vote to not have health care.
You have heard my reasons for not wanting health care and you have heard other people express the same thoughts for various reasons.
Nothing is forever SimmaDahnNah and ideas are spreading. I suggest strongly that the health care system start re-inventing itself before the public does it for them!
As for being forced to pay my share - you would be amazed at the length and breadth of black market, and under the table activities that will allow me and others to underpay what I do not wish to pay for. Those ideas are spreading as well.
Wasn't the United States formed by people who resented taxation without representation. What makes you so sure it can't happen again. | |
|
e-wok
|
Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 82 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 9:11:00 PM | By the way, I pay, if I remember correctly, about $35 per month for
Health Care in British Columbia. How much do you guys, Americans
pay? I saw something on the internet claim you guys pay $7500.00 every
year. Is this true or fiction?
This is what I found on the net:
The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs
National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage (9).
Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage (10).
Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of the uninsured reported changing their way of life significantly in order to pay medical bills (10).
Almost 50 percent of the American public say they are very worried about having to pay more for their health care or health insurance, while 42 percent report they are very worried about not being able to afford health care services (11).
In a poll conducted by the Harvard School of Public Health, 43 percent of respondents named high costs as one of the two most important health care issues for government to address (12).
In a USA Today/ABC News survey, 80 percent of Americans said that they were dissatisfied (60 percent were very dissatisfied) with high national health care spending (13).
One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious (13).
A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses (14). Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid-range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt (15).
If one member of a family is uninsured and has an accident, a hospital stay, or a costly medical treatment, the resulting medical bills can affect the economic stability of the whole family (16).
A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings (17).
A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses (18).
Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage (19). Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.
Canadians, say what you will about waiting times, but NONE of you are
ever going to go bankrupt - EVER. And nobody will worry about about
their sick children.
So shut your carping! Read and learn before you destroy everything that
the average American wants what you have.
| |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 10:05:37 PM |
I saw something on the internet claim you guys pay $7500.00 every year. Is this true or fiction?
"We guys" don't have a national premium, so there isn't a single cost for every human being in the US. I have Federal Employee Blue Cross/Blue Shield which is part of my survivor benefit plan (I'm a widow). The full premium for a single federal employee, retiree or surivor is around $375 a month, but the government picks up 2/3 of the cost as an employee benefit. So my personal cost is $124.
For that premium I have great health insurance with no lines, I get to pick my own doctors -- and that means ANY doctor. If I pick a preferred doctor out-of-pocket costs are minimal, but insurance pays even for doctors who are not part of the preferred plan.
There are also other plans that cost less if you don't want to lay out as much money in premiums.
There are many proposals for extending health care to all US citizens. One of them involves making the Federal Employee Health Care Plan available to everyone. As it stands now, no federal employee winds up having to pay rated premiums, or adhere to prexisting illness clauses because the risk is spead over millions of people. If the risk were spread over everyone in the US the policies would probably cost even less money.
Even the WORST of the federal health plans is better than what's up there in Canada. My boyfriend was in the worst federal plan (IMO), the Kaiser HMO. I thought most of his doctors must have gotten their medical degrees at K-Mart, and they pushed pills like they got commissions on each one they sold. If you wanted a drug approved in the last year you could forget it. But there were no long lines, no waiting for surgery, or procedures. If you needed medication, you just stopped by the pharmacy and picked up a 90 day supply. And their specialists were actually pretty competent; it was only the family docs who were questionable.
I don't know of anyone who pays $7,500 a year for medical insurance, but then, I've never had to purchase an individual health insurance policy. My guess is a policy costing that much would be a rare occurrence, and would be purchased by a person in poor health, or one who had survived a bad illness and would be expected to have very high health care costs in the future.
| |
|
e-wok
|
Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 84 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/26/2007 10:33:25 PM | Thanks for your the info.
Just an FYI; I can pick whatever hospital or doctor I want as well. The
problem is with the last 3 doctors I had to fire their sorry asses
because they SUCK! But finding an available family doctor is difficult and I have
to go into a walk in clinic where doctors give you a number and then
assess you in .00000003/second....because they are thinking about
serving the next patient. But I can go to any hospital and many of us also have extra
coverage from our employer....with mine, I get my own private room in hospital..also
if my wife was pregnant, she'd be granted a dietitian, private nurse, etc and video's
and tv blah blah. The other downside, my friend was giving birth and
because of shortages of doctors, she along with several other expectant
mothers had to board a helicopter on top of the hospital and be flown to Seattle
for birth - which is a regular practice. Many air ambulances are heading
to the US or Alberta from here.
...but, you'll never find a bankruptcy here from hospital bills. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 12:02:00 AM | Suzanne10:
I will pay direct for services as I get them!!! or I will do without!!
You mentioned skiing earlier (I'm an avid skier)....so...a senerio for you under your "plan".
You go skiing one day, crash and break your leg. You get to the door of the ER. A financial expert is the first to greet you. "Payment please" are their first two words. Next comes... "cash, or debit card only. Oh...no cash?...no debit card?....sorry...you do not meet our requirements...leave now... bleed to death on the corner if you must, without pre-payment we cannot serve you....excuse me....I see a person waving a wad of cash...we can help them."
In case you missed it, your "natural right to self-determination" has now been taken over by your "financial ability".
[$10k or $15k is] More than what most people make in a year.
If we are including third world countries, I guess you have a point. If we are talking about the US and Canada,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37628-2004Dec30.html
http://www.kyklosproductions.com/articles/wages.html
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
Get out your calculator for the last one...
Wasn't the United States formed by people who resented taxation without representation.
It was....but is it still??? I think not.
If you needed medication, you just stopped by the pharmacy and picked up a 90 day supply. And their specialists were actually pretty competent; it was only the family docs who were questionable.
Did the prescription come from the doc or the specialist? Did the doc recommend the specialist?
If the risk were spread over everyone in the US the policies would probably cost even less money.
Sounds like socialized medicare to me!
One last thing...
If you wanted a drug approved in the last year you could forget it.
One less thing for you to publish, nes pas? | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 3:19:19 AM |
I don't know of anyone who pays $7,500 a year for medical insurance, but then, I've never had to purchase an individual health insurance policy. My guess is a policy costing that much would be a rare occurrence, and would be purchased by a person in poor health, or one who had survived a bad illness and would be expected to have very high health care costs in the future.
It is actually not a rare occurrence. As I stated in a prior post, the rising cost of healthcare is forcing employers to shop around for the cheapest group rates. I have seen some of these policies have up to a $7500 deductible for a family policy. With a deductible, of course if they don't rack up $7500 in bills, they won't end up paying $7500, but potentially they could. Not to mention they probably pay a premium weekly as you do.
Even Medicare has a $130/year deductible, and after that is met, the patient is responsible for 20% of the Medicare allowed amount. (Meaning if a doc charges $65.00 for a service, and Medicare allows 57.96, the pt pays 20% of that). CMS (Medicare) has varying fee schedules for different parts of the country based on population, etc. That is not including Medicare Part D for pharmacy. I'm not too sure what they pay for the part D, if anything, as it is fairly new and something that the clinical staff deals with. I haven't had much personal dealings with it. But before part D came into effect, all Medicare pt's were responsible for their own pharmacy costs. This forced them to purchase a supplemental insurance, and they pay premuims and copays for this as well. A lot of the supplementals really don't cover anything other than hospital charges anyway, so unless someone is hospitalized, they are paying all these costs and getting next to nothing in return.
The only government policies that are in effect at this point in time (to my knowledge) that do not require patient pay, are the state funded Medicaid programs. And even some of them have a 'spenddown'. If someone is borderline on the income scale, they will give them a Medicaid plan, but the patient is responsible for a monthly deductible as well. I would venture to say that 95% of the Caid policies are not spenddowns, but that's just my experience where I live.
Ewok, you didn't post the article about people crossing your borders for healthcare. I would be interested in reading that one. On another note, I had to bill a Canadian policy once a few years ago that was brought in by an injured hockey player...I had a hell of a time getting paid on that one. If I still worked in that facility, I'd look it up, but if memory serves, I think they didn't even use the same universal CPT codes we do. It was ugly. I bet these OB/GYNs that are delivering Canadian babies in Seattle are having a good time with it. By the way.....if a Canadian baby is born in Seattle....are they an American citizen? | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 4:05:29 AM | Ewok
You are grossly underestimating what you pay for health care in Canada. We pay through taxes. Canadians currently pay out about 48 cents of every dollar in taxes. So if you make $25,000 per year gross - you pay about $ 12,00o in taxes.
of every tax dollar you pay - about 36 cents winds up in the health care budget
That is about $4, 320 dollars for health care! And that does not include prescriptions.
The $35.00 / month that you mentioned is merely a co-pay for medical insurance that provides additional services over and above what nationalized health care provides.
The United States spends about $7,000 per person on health care.
And yet still somehow, countries where people spend far less per capita on health care than Canadians and United States are declared far "heathier" than us!
Michelle | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 4:13:04 AM | Alexandria_gal
I agree with you completely. You should have the right to purchase whatever level of health care YOU choose and there should also be pot of money in reserve for people who suffer emergency injuries.
As previously stated, I do not mind contributing to a pot for others who are not in a position to pay for themselves.
I just want the right to purchase services with my own money!
OutdoorGuy - you mentions skiing as an activity that commonly results in injury. How can reasonable people demand that smokers, eaters and drinkers pay "extra" for their health care costs because of a increased risk in disease rates while at the same time demand the right to ski and consume more than your fair share of health care dollars for injuries that occur as they pursue the things that bring them pleasure?
Why should smokers, drinkers and eaters be paying for the adverse impacts of your hobby?
If you want to ski - I suggest you have some emergency funds aside to deal with emergency injuries.
Michelle | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 1:50:49 PM |
Get out your calculator for the last one...
For your supposition of "most people making $10-$15k a year" to be true, most people would have to be making the minimum wage in this country. That isn't the case.
I'm not sure where you're going with that.
Even in the articles you hyperlinked, the "poor people" made at least double the paltry $10-15k, which is well below the poverty level.
Sounds like socialized medicare to me!
Offering every available health care policy to every human being in the country isn't socialized medicine, because everyone has to pay for their insurance unless they are poor. And the insurance companies aren't taking on too much risk, when the pool is everyone in the United States.
The way things work now, everyone in the US does get health care eventually, but they get it in a way that doesn't benefit them, and costs us (i.e., the US taxpayer) more in the long run.
Because poor people don't have medical insurance they don't see doctors, and so they don't receive any health care at all until they get very, very sick and fall into the Medicaid system. Once that happens they have some very expensive condition that will either be chronic and costly for many years like heart disease or diabetes, or a disease that can eat up hundreds of thousands of thousands to millions of dollars in just a few years -- like cancer (my husband's cancer treatments cost over $1 million in 1.5 years). Early detection and cure of cancer saves huge health care dollars, compared to treating a patient in stage IV to death. If this happens, it's all at taxpayer expense.
If we get them to pay for their OWN health insurance by offering it in a large pool at an affordable rate (or subsidize private insurance for the poor), they get their health problems treated before they are very ill. And if they do get very ill, they are treated with private insurance dollars not with taxpayer money. So it's a win/win.
One less thing for you to publish, nes pas?
If fewer insurance companies had new drugs in their formularies it wouldn't impact on my writing about new drugs. My writing about them only depends on them being developed, although I don't know how that has any relevance to this discussion.
| |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/27/2007 3:02:25 PM | Ninety-nine percent of people who are covered under part "A" of medicare pay no premiums for the coverage,and that is because they have 40 or more medicare-covered quarters of contributions to the system.The part "A" premium for folks with 30-39 quarters is 226.00 per month.Those folks with less than 30 quarters will pay 410.00 per month.The current deductable for part "A"' is 992.00...Medicare premiums for part "B" are 93.50 per month currently,with a 131.00 deductable on that part.According to the medicare folks there will be appro. 25 percent of part "B" folks that wiil be eligible for the govenment to pay their premiums.Of course if we are addressing part "D" the premiums are based on the plan you chose.The other side of the coin is the fact that a lot of folks have decided to have a private company take care of the whole enchilada and of course the cost is varied as can be.The new aspect that has started with 2007 is an income test for those folks with individual incomes over 80k and 160k for marrieds couples.On a sliding scale depending on income they will pay proportionly more in premiums.
Pack | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/30/2007 8:48:19 AM |
Suzanne10
You are grossly underestimating what you pay for health care in Canada. We pay through taxes. Canadians currently pay out about 48 cents of every dollar in taxes. So if you make $25,000 per year gross - you pay about $ 12,00o in taxes.
of every tax dollar you pay - about 36 cents winds up in the health care budget
That is about $4, 320 dollars for health care! And that does not include prescriptions.
The $35.00 / month that you mentioned is merely a co-pay for medical insurance that provides additional services over and above what nationalized health care provides.
You are wrong. To pay $12,000 in income taxes (federal and provincial) then you income is in the $45,000 range and NOT $25,000 in income.
Someone making $25,000 pays about $2,500 and not $12,000 in income tax.
so about $900 goes for health care. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:29:38 AM | niceguy you are only looking at FEDERAL INCOME TAX. Ever checked out the municipal taxes, provincial taxes, sales taxes or whipped out a calculator at a gas pump? There is a reason "tax freedom day" has been in the 7th month of the year for more than the last decade. We pay over 50% tax.
And ewok....who is coming across your border for healthcare????? That's one I've never heard before
Driving through NY state was offered $800 cash if I had my old healthcard on me(prior to photo health cards). You can bet it wasn't for a collector. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:39:12 AM |
Actually adjusted for inflation our current system is quite sustainable. Our problem is we keep cutting it in favor of tax decreases. Then wondering why it doesn't work as well as it used to.
Not sure what tax cuts are being talked about here. In Ontario, we had a huge tax increase for health care when Mcguinty was first elected, for example a 900 dollar increase for OHIP coverage.
Paying for health care , whether for my self or somebody else through Universal Coverage, is not an issue for me. What bothers me is having such a huge increase , and years later seeing no affects from that increase. Wait times are just as bad or worse now than ever.
Also Universal Coverage is a myth. Sure people who have extra cash can not jump line here, however we still have a 2 tier system in Canada because of a lack of Doctors. I tore my Rotator Cuff back in February, only got my MRI last week, I do not have a family Doctor to pull strings . My daughter needed an MRI, strings were pulled by her family Doctor, she was able to get one in 2 weeks, albeit at 2 am in Toronto.
Paying for health care via taxes for Universal Coverage is not an issue for me. I do not want to see anyone go without coverage .
What does bother me is that our system is not working very well, why?
More money the answer ? Then why have we not seen an improvement in care, shorter wait times, more Doctors , here in Ontario since that rather large increase?
Hey if more money will give help and support to Parents of Autistic children for example, you have no argument from me .
But show me that more money will work , so far I have not seen any indication that our health care has improved here. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
