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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 1:21:32 AM | it amazes me how many experts have come to "explain" this situation before any facts became known. my latest "understanding" is that this was a young man who was tortured by his classmates in his younger years. i had some of that myself, but thank G-d at least had some "quality" friends to keep me sane until my glorious college years. it is not easy being beaten up. i was beaten up by irish kids for being jewish, who later on apologized. younger school kids can be quite cruel and will always find someone to pick on who is different.
the shooter's parents had struggled and came here for a better life. he started to lose it and despite repeated requests from the english chair, no one would come to his aid. my guess is his parents had no clue how to get help. my best friend is korean, born here, and she says it's been quite a process to acculturate her own mom. even europeans i have known, working in america, are very embarrassed to admit to getting therapy and make fun of americans for seeing therapists. i knew one such high level executive, who would sit there weeping from depression, but refuse to see a therapist and his wife could only resort to slipping saint john's wort in his food. unfortunately i believe he was bi-polar and did excellent genius work for his corporation when he was manic.
the students killed by the VA shooter were multi-national /racial and not a bunch of just "white boys". he was not a sociopath but a very tortured soul. whether he was teased due to his mental illnes or became mentally ill from being teased is not clear. it appears this was his only "voice" and he hardly spoke when he was victimized.
there have been no retaliations against koreans and in fact the virginia community has also layed flowers out for him, recognizing his illness. people feel for his parents as well as for the parents of the victims. he has also been referred to as a victim.
the english chair who tried to get him help reports very sadly and with great concern that she has received hundreds of emails from teachers and students all over this country and from outside this country with similar cases and wanting to know what to do to prevent another similar scenario.
the teacher explained that many felt their hands were tied--something i have heard time and again from law makers myself when trying to help troubled teens. a well know therapist who specializes in mass killings has said that people should not take the law literally but recognize it's intent. still, she has not been specific as to what exactly to do and how to do it.
the right approach is still vague but one demonstrator highly recommnended that campuses teach their students what to do in an emergency, such as take the expensive computers if required and use them to break open windows if they are jammed and immediately escape out those windows. people freeze in these situations. some become martyrs and human shields. others think to block the doors with desks. others flee.
my understanding is that the gun was purchased legally. also the australian stats i have read above saying that gun conrol has not helped in that country, contradict the stats they provided in the news which say gun deaths have indeed gone down.
i myself am a vegetarian and i do not like hunting. but if you are only concerned about the animals, then i'd say more are killed in more inhuman ways for the local supermarket. in britain, the rich and famous go hunting. in the usa, it's been the poor who hunted for their food. so it's quite the reverse psychology, after you subtract the whackos who need to hunt fenced wild game at private parks. to me that 's really disgusting and these are clearly not "real men". but i think that is another topic. this boy would have gotten a gun no matter what. if not legally, then illegally.
what would be the best thing for all of us is to reach out to people who are isolated so that it does not come to this, especially the lonely and tormented teens. big brother and big sister type programs could do a lot more, if they had more volunteers. no one should be that lonely, angry and desperate. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 3:46:41 AM |
amazes me how many experts have come to "explain" this situation before any facts became known. my latest "understanding" is that this was a young man who was tortured by his classmates in his younger years. i had some of that myself, but thank G-d at least had some "quality" friends to keep me sane until my glorious college
I am not an expert....but if you read one of my posts, I explained that I went to 7 differant schools...and thats elementary. I was picked on every year until I stood up for myself. And I have yet to see where anyone "tortured" him. Buillied , teased ..yes. We have all endured that if we are Jewish, Korean...whatever. But in his case..he was tortured??
he has also been referred to as a victim.
Of what?? Life?? Thats just disrepectful of the dead. They didn't have a choice to become a "victim"
myself am a vegetarian and i do not like hunting. but if you are only concerned about the animals, then i'd say more are killed in more inhuman ways for the local supermarket. in britain, the rich and famous go hunting. in the usa, it's been the poor who hunted for their food. so it's quite the reverse psychology, after you subtract the whackos who need to hunt fenced wild game at private parks. to me that 's really disgusting and these are clearly not "real men". but i think that is another topic. this boy would have gotten a gun no matt
I hate eggplant and think vegetarians are nuts. Live in a wood house and contribute to millions of acres of habitat loss and gripe about those nasty hunters that basically fund every effort of conservation for wildlife. And my parents are quite wealthy...and I love to hunt. And the hunters I deal with in my business really don't have to go out and get one of them there rabbits for vittles because they are poor. They do however feed their families with everything they kill. And really...the term whacko is a bit offensive to apply to them. Are you sure you were the one being ostrasized in school??
And your understanding is a but skewed on him recieving help, or lack of. Aside from every red flag that would give every normal family cause to get help..they didn't. And wasn't he recently held in a hospital for 2 days?? And I still don't see why if he was being "tortured" in every school he was in...why would you send him to VA tech??? Is there a state law that says you have to attend that college??..or any college? | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 8:30:53 AM | I too speak from experience I was beat by my folks the other kids at school teased me bullied me only difference is I also snapped beating two other kids almost to death I also held my drill instructor hostage in military school I got tired of being beat down..Then a poor child molester made the mistake of attempting to make me his 7th victim..What cracks me up is one who comments about others being experts and then proceeds to share their comments as if they are the expert. I'm no expert. Just someone that's been through the shit and trying to help..I never went after innocent people I got the fu*ker that messed with me..I wonder if this kid got molested too it will all come out in the wash.. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 9:25:31 AM | Byrd, You are so right! So many experts here!
I certainly hope I don't come across as an expert. I have my theories and hypothesis, as many will believe what they want ..... I have said this over and over again.....
I also have not read all that has been written on this topic, since so many things will be written so soon afterwards ........ it's the filtering through the info to ensure reputable, reliable, and accurate information that is required. I will remain a skeptic, until further studies on the case have been completed .... you know how the grapevine works ............ and it works very well online through the internet as well!
btw ...... congratulations to you with addressing your past issues! 
I am sure that it has not been easy! I only hope that things are much better with your life now, now that you have more of a control over it ......... as a child, unfortunately, you start with the reliance on adults ............. and not all adults are great! ...... as you know and have experienced first hand! I too, had an abusive father, but not as bad as yours ......... if we will compare ............ I never used fighting as a means to address issues .......... I was fortuante enough never to be bullied......
I wish you continued strength, tolerance, and positive attittude!
I can see that you know the meaning of this. ......
I'll ignore your fu*ker comments....  | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 11:52:28 AM | | Blah Blah Blah...God. God never saved the children in hospitals dieing a horrible death from cancer, and they have their own chapels and clergy. I have no qualms about them including god in the pledge of allgiance, and there are worse things kids could believe in. But leave your religious rhetoric out of public schools. You want your kids to go to school with your god, send them to private schools. The Flying Spaghetti monster would have had more luck preventing any of these tradgedys. Keep thinking God is gonna solve everything, and you will keep finding out that it is not gonna happen. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 12:13:43 PM | "YOU WANT GOD BACK IN OUR SCHOOLS AGAIN"
Sorry, RWGG, can't echo your sentiment there. Kind of a cop out to just blame all these issues on prayer being removed from schools. That takes any of the blame for the kids that end up like the VT shooter off the parents shoulders....where it belongs...and putting it squarely on the schools and the government.
"Read the Bible in school;
the Bible that says
"thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
And love your neighbors as yourself,""
Come on...you make it sound like they're teaching kids that these actions are OK. It is possible to teach good citizenship and respect for others without the aid of scripture(your Bible) that many many kids and parents don't recognize as anything other than mythology.
"Then someone said,
let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,
And they won't even have to tell their parents.
And we said, that's a grand idea"
Load of crap.....only 6 states and Washington DC as of July 2006 did not have parental notification laws for underage abortions. It is also a federal crime to transport a pregnant minor across state line for the purpose of getting an abortion.
"Then some wise school board member said,
Since boys will be boys
And they're going to do it anyway,
let's give our sons all the condoms they want,
So they can have all the fun they desire,
And we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.
And we said, that's another great idea... "
Ever try to convince a normal 17 year old boy that abstinence is better than using a condom? I'd like to see data that shows teen pregnancies have risen in districts where condoms were given out. This is more conservative "head in the sand" rhetoric. This is 2007......does anyone really think there is any way teens will quit having sex?
"And someone else took that appreciation a step further
And published pictures of nude children
And then stepped further still by
Making them available on the Internet.
And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech...."
There is no more vilified person today in our society that the child pornagrapher......I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to find an instance where a known child pornographer has gotten off claiming "freedom of speech"
The rest of this can be summed up here:
"Now we're asking ourselves
Why our children have no conscience,
Why they don't know right from wrong,"
So all these horrible conditions occur because of no religion in schools(no Christianity...you never hear anyone else complain), the sex and violence in media, movies, TV, and video games, the schools and teachers, government.....not one single mention of any culpability on behalf of parents. I guess the love of personal responsibility so trumpeted by Republicans and conservatives doesn't extend to parental responsibilities. In these cases, the conservatives want Big Brother to step in and censor TV and movies and video games.....we want government to step in and tell us only Christianity can be taught in schools.....we want government to be surragte parents for our kids because we are to busy ourselves to do it.
"I PERSONALLY FEEL IT'S TIME AND WAYYYY OVERDUE THAT WE AS PARENTS UNITE ONCE AND FOR ALL AND TAKE A STAND AND DO A "MILLION PARENT WALK"!!!! STRAIGHT INTO WASHINGTON DC AND TELL OUR GOVERNMENT THAT WE WANT GOD BACK IN AMERICA AGAIN OURSELVES"
And I would be marching down the other side of the street telling my government to keep "God" out of my public school.
This kid didn't shoot up Tech because he didn't read the 10 Commandments on his high schools hallway. He did it because he was a troubled kid that noone took the time or effort(including his parents)to get to the root of his issues and get him help.
This was a horrible tragedy but putting "God" back in schools will not fix it. You are rather naive if you believe otherwise. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 1:18:20 PM | "God" is not the answer.
Or atleast not the answer for everyone. You do not need a god to know right from wrong, or cruelty from charity. And the only reason more people need head-shinkers is they don't seem to have the wide circle of friends that used to be common. What alot of people today call friends are actually acquaintances. The more separate people make themselves the more screwed up they will get, humans have been since the dawn of time a social creature.
Oh and there has been more death "in the name of god" than mercy. Crusades, inquistions, Salem witch-hunts, praise allah and lets blow up a building ....... how many examples would it take? | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 2:05:28 PM |
I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
She didn't want any prayer in our schools.
No it started at the Treaty of Tripoli and the Constitution when the Founding Fathers wanted to ensure no one religion got favoured treatment by the state and made it clear in said treaty that America was NOT a Christian nation.
Teaching morality begins in the home as does teaching religious and community ethics and why it is wrong to vent your rage on your fellow humans with a gun. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 3:56:21 PM | | Yes but it's people that carried out the violence in the name of God..As far as disasters that sh*t happens we have totally abused our world..And diseases, accidents, people shooting and killing other people happens death does not practice discrimnation we all die sooner or later some die young some die old..God doesn't work for everyone. I agree but he works for me, but I don't believe in shoving prayer down ones throat either. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 4:08:09 PM |
Reply:
Dear Concerned Student:
Sorry,
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God
don't even try to tell me the amish kids killed last october in lancaster didn't allow god in their school. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 5:06:56 PM | In the following context, like in the pledge of aliegence, God is used as a generic term, possibly meaning something different to each person saying it, simply meaning a higher being (Christ, Allah, Mohammod, alien eggs buried in the earth, whatever...) I will not touch on whether it is right/wrong to believe in such a higher being, as that is everyone's individual choice. With this in mind, this is my theory on why having a 'God' figure taught to our children is important and make a difference in how people relate to the world around them, as well as their own actions.
Instilling a God[higher being] into someones life, at any age, puts them in a position that they will be judged on their actions in their life here on earth. Just like the reason you show up for work and do your job each day. You have a job to get a paycheck to pay your bills. If you don't show up for work or perform your job well enough, you will be fired and you will no longer get a paycheck to pay your bills. In this scenerio, the 'higher being' here is your boss. As generation after generation is being taught that there is no 'God', their becomes a higher percentage of people in the society that no longer feel that there are any lasting penalties for their actions on earth. "I am just gonna die anyway, and once I'm dead, I'm dead, they can only kill me once, and my life sucks anyway." Combined with the constant bombarding of glorifying violence in our society, the lack of proper guidence in our youth, the acceptance of a class-driven society, and the lack of [perceived or otherwise] opportunities to live a happy and fullfilling life, it doesn't leave a whole lot to live for. So why bother being kind to your neighbor, you don't like him anyway? Why forgive someone for running over my roses when I can just whip his a$$? Why should I give to the poor, they never helped me? Why not committ suicide, in fact, I will take some of those rich sob's with me that have been tormenting me for the last 3 years, at least the ones that I don't get will think twice about teasing someone else tomorrow. (In this context, the VT shooter would feel he was doing the world a favor by his actions, might even be considered a martar).
In short, if there are no lasting consequences to your actions (just like criminals that continually get short sentences for their crimes or children who are never punished for exceeding their bounderies), why should I bother working so hard to be a benefit to this world I live in when there isn't any 'higher being' to answer to once I'm dead.
Like I said, it's just my .02. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 7:49:53 PM | rk9, thank you for sharing that your parents are rich. hopefully you will meet a nice woman on pof who is looking for that and perhaps you can do a search on "eats meat" .
it was the choice of the virginian students to send condolences to the parents of the victims and also the shooter and to place flowers for him as well. surely you must have seen this on tv or read it. it was interviews with those who were there that portrayed the shooter as also a victim. personally i was not there, so perhaps you should chastise those who are attempting to deal with this. or perhaps your rich parents can fly you there and you can disrupt the flowers they put up for him as well. maybe even use your own money and be a real "sport"?! i am sure that will help them heal (sorry no little figure that expresses tongue in cheek).
please, also ignore all the real "experts" including those who survived columbine and who have been touring the country since then working on prevention and actually having a success rate. or did you not get exposure to this group either? and also please ignore the warnings/concern of the english chair who had tried to get this boy help. ignore her concern that she is getting an overwhelming load of email about children who are similar to the shooter in their behavior. after all, what does she know?!*
some of us were bullied more than others. some used force in retaliation. not being that strong, i used my brains. i also had parents who defended me and i had nothing happen to me like what happened to this young man who apparently did not have the physical prowess that some of you do who have handled even more and indeed are true survivors who have not harmed innocent others. i both respect and honor you all for that. i got to hug my major attacker years later. she was quite sad.
as to college acceptance of intelligent students, and having gone to a well known business university (they needed someone eccentric to color it up), most of the colleges with the brighter students used to have comprehensive mental health services. in fact, working in the admissions office of grad school as a student (alas no rich parents), i remember that some of the super geniuses were not accepted at some of the lesser colleges because of not having those services. i also remember a building put on fire by some of the super geniuses who were housed in a special building because some of them were around 14 yrs. old and getting advanced university degrees! so intelligence and mental stability are separate issues.
however you hit it on the head (and w/o a gun, lol!). they put unstable people in 2 day observation nowadays and if they don't rave and rant and try to kill themselves, they set them free. it is also extremely difficult to get anyone past 18 into "involuntary"- admission and also hard to get reimbursement for voluntary admission. not even parents can do this (involuntary) and there are insufficient funds. if a parent is lucky enough in the usa to have mental health coverage and if their child is a dependent and in full time college, they might be able to get limited outpatient coverage. it is always AFTER the attempted suicide or external act of aggression that as a parent you might be lucky to get a couple of weeks of acute care hospitalization. what used to be highly funded community mental health centers are totally underfunded today.
i once spent almost two days waiting in the county lobby for someone to assess one of the kids i was helping and she was willing to be voluntarily admitted. since she didn't kill herself while there, and didn't rant, they set her loose with no followup or recommendations. she had severe post trauma and although not directly dangerous to others, was clearly a danger to herself. but that is another story.
the bureacracy collects paychecks and has no time or authority to help the majority of people in involuntary mental health institutionalization. the reason is because in the past many sane people were hospitalized in mental hospitals indefinitely for political or financial puposes. so civil liberties has swung to the other extreme. there is no logical middle and the ramifications are severe. not only to the person with the mental illness, but also to the rest of us who must deal with the repercussions.
there MUST be something done with the mental health assessment laws and we need to get back the funds that were taken away from the mental health treatment programs.
i also take issue with G-d in the schools because i have seen many religions, particuarly the moslem religion not included and i have seen mostly second testament christian prayers versus generic prayers that might even appeal to an atheist. i am not sure these would be real prayers but perhaps affirmations or expressions of goodwill.
however i do agree with the poster's assessment of what is allowed for children to see nowadays, in particular what is on tv and what is accessed via the internet. you can set rules at home, but everywhere they go they get exposed to a lot of garbage. it takes a different kind of parenting and being able to speak openly and directly to children at a much younger age. it is exhausting but necessary and you need to brainstorm some of the approaches. however, i am not sure that this would not have happened anyway. similar events have happened throughout history, also portrayed in the less sensational news.
we too have had bomb threats today in one high school and one elementary school. it is still unclear whether these and prior ones are related and unfortunately reality is not quite like the success rate of csi. no one has a clue in local police depts!
as to your hunting, since you took offense i guess you are one of those who has to go to the game park i mentioned that has fences so you can shoot something. not good enough to hunt with the real hunters? well, to be quite frank, i really didn't expect to hear that position from all the posts i did read or perhaps i would not have opened that can of worms on this thread. as to distingusihing between the history of english hunting versus usa hunting, that was for clarification since there is a class history with hunting in britain and i was not thinking of your rich parents when i wrote. as i already implied, i cannot take fault with real hunters any more than supermarket shoppers. in fact, real hunters, give the animals a chance because there are not fences to assure you "get one" like at the private game farms which you defend or at the slaughter houses. again, i assume that real hunters eat their meat and don't just do it to hang heads on their walls.
my manfriend eats meat. he doesn't insist on using my iron pots. i don't eat it, but i don't hold it against him and certainly do not hate him. he even goes to my vegetarian meetup and tells meat jokes and no one holds it against him. so really not sure where your comments are from except that oddly you are into private, fenced in game farms. and as to that, well i maintain my position and you are welcome to yours.
so namaste to you. sometimes, not knowing someone on pof, you assume a tone of voice that may not be there. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 8:09:10 PM | | I think everyone who is writing on here needs to remember what is important. It's not gun laws, God or anything else. We all need to remember the victims, the lives lost and the families who are grieving because their loved ones were taken too soon. Don't politicize this tragedy, that dishonors the victims. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/23/2007 8:53:04 PM | The victims are buried at this point.
Sometimes you also need to adjust your mental sights, to compare what we see as immoral and pathological, against that which we take for granted as part and parcel of modern warfare:
There have been 12 IEDs, 14 Indirect Fires (mortars or rocket attacks), 3 Sniper attacks, and 3 VBIEDS (car bombs), all against Coalition forces. On the civilian side, there were 12 murders, 65 recovered bodies, and three kidnappings." After a bit, it was all just too depressing, so now we just talk about what happens in our own patrol area -- all six square kilometers of it. Hell, it's usually depressing enough talking about what happened there.
Oh, and by the way, the numbers I just mentioned are pretty typical for a day's work in Baghdad.
If you have a few minutes, read this blog entry: "The Termite Mound".
http://gocomics.typepad.com/the_sandbox/
Call it perspective adjustment that rides on top of the reality adjustment of the rudely unexpected events, such as that which occurred one week ago, in our otherwise relatively quiet lives. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/24/2007 8:36:33 AM |
The sad reality is this guy Cho isn't the only unstable person in the US. Indeed, it seems we have a few unstable people on this very thread. Anyone who has watched this story unfold knows that this guys was obsessed with his guns and the feeling of power it gave him. Unfortunately he is not alone. Many men feel extremely powerful when they have a gun in their hands. Put the two together and you have a disaster in the making.
There's unstable people everywhere, hell, there's crazy people. We as a society try to do our best in helping them or keeping them from harming others. But nothing will ever be 100% foolproof. We the people, and our elected governments try and make guidelines, rules and laws that will deter/prevent crime and acts of violence. Unfortunately, we have people that WILL do what they're going to do with no regard to themselves, others or consequence.
As far as feeling powerful with a gun in your hands. I can see that point, especially when I'm watching Al Pacino in Scarface. But that's a movie, chum. I know hundreds of gun owners, and never have I been givin any hint that ANY of them ever felt "powerful" with a gun in their hands. You're basing this on what you think, or what television leads you ot believe.
-Hunting: Most hunters seem to agree that assualt rifles and handguns aren't needed to hunt...so why do we have them?
COMPLETELY UNTRUE. You either have really biased sources, or you're simply lying. The only hunter with that impression is Jim Zumbo.
-Self-Defence: More gun-owners are killed either by their own gun or the criminals' than saved by using their gun. Also, most gun owners are male (as are most violent shooters). So why aren't the majority of gun owners female?
Where or where do you get these things from? And for the record, there are millions of female shooters, hunters and competitors.
I don't know the stats, but I'd have to guess that percentage is more on the male side, but there's very obvious reasons for that.
I'll tell you why, because males tend to be more destructive than females. So while you sound off about your rights and your guns keep in mind that you are also defending the 'rights' of the Cho's of the world to own their guns. How's that for blood on your hands?
I don't speak for anyone, especially lunatics. If Cho had, in fact, a legal license, then the system may want to check how exactly he got one, and was there anything that could have prevented it. In Canada, w e have to take courses and then be tested. We then have to apply for a license. It will ask for references and then go to the CFC where thye will start running background checks with various police forces, like the Ottawa Police, the RCMP...and possibly/probably CSIS. It's a pretty failsafe system. Nothing is 100%, ever. If so, anyone who has a driver's license would never gotten into a drinking and driving accident.
Think about this...if handguns and assualt rifles were illegal, then the police would have a better chance of preventing such massacres as the VT shooting. If an internet sale is made it gives police a chance to catch the guy before he goes shooting. Or if a killer is stopped for speeding and they find a gun in their possession, there's another oppertunity.
That is completely absurd. So criminals only buy and sell guns on the internet??? If a killer is stopped for speeding and he has an unlicensed, unregistered, illegal handgun or assault rifle in his car...chances are good he's going to jail.
We can all argue about what is and isn't a right all day, but the facts back me up. Look at how many people are killed by guns in the UK and compare it to the US. Gun bans save lives. Maybe the lives of you friends, family and total strangers aren't as important to you as the thrill you get firing off a gun, but they are to me.
No, possibly your non-factual left wing websites lead you to believe that these "gun bans" mystically get rid of crime or stop it are, extremely wrong.
I've provided some very good references in a previous post as to how much crime (especially muggings, home invasions and armed robbery) have increased since britain and Australia have implemented these bans. It has and will continue to increase. Really my friend, it's simple mathematics. Firstly, you CANNOT get rid of guns. You can "outlaw" them....but you would be naieve to actually believe that they will dissappear. So, in the end, this leaves law abiding people with no guns, right? Being that they obey the law, they hand them in. Do the criminals hand theirs in? Sure they do....after all, that's why they're criminals?!? | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/24/2007 8:41:31 AM |
Most hunted animals seem to agree that hunters wouldn't 'need' guns of any kind if they derived power and potency elsewhere. Ban weapons? Hell no, arm the animals.
There are lots of armed animals. Most live right in the big urban areas....but there are rural ones too. Unfortunately, north american laws state they're illegal to hunt. Besides that, they probably taste like $hit! | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/24/2007 9:52:46 AM |
as to your hunting, since you took offense i guess you are one of those who has to go to the game park i mentioned that has fences so you can shoot something. not good enough to hunt with the real hunters? well, to be quite frank, i really didn't expect to hear that position from all the posts i did read or perhaps i would not have opened that can of worms on this thread. as to distingusihing between the history of english hunting versus usa hunting, that was for clarification since there is a class history with hunting in britain and i was not thinking of your rich parents when i wrote. as i already implied, i cannot take fault with real hunters any more than supermarket shoppers. in fact, real hunters, give the animals a chance because there are not fences to assure you "get one" like at the private game farms which you defend or at the slaughter houses. again, i assume that real hunters eat their meat and don't just do it to hang heads on their walls.
What does british royalty hunting have to with the hunters in out country??? Nothing.
And the hunters I know killed their game, in theis case wild hogs, on a 10,000 acre gamefarm. Not someones backyard. And I went to the hog roast...it was quite tasty. Your ignorance of hunting and hunters is pretty clear, so you may want to just stick with whatever mental health takes you have.
Your original post depicted this nutjob as someone that had no help, no way to get help, and nobody attempted to help him while he was "tortured" in school. Not the case. And when he was held in the hospital, if he appeared to be suicidal, or deranged...they would not have let him go. Just shows that he was cunning enough to turn it on or off when needed. Pretty hard to fault our mental health system, if he appeared to be sane and they tried to keep him, the would be sued, but let him go...and they are responsible for what he did?? | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 6:21:34 AM |
Your original post depicted this nutjob as someone that had no help, no way to get help, and nobody attempted to help him while he was "tortured" in school. Not the case. And when he was held in the hospital, if he appeared to be suicidal, or deranged...they would not have let him go. Just shows that he was cunning enough to turn it on or off when needed. Pretty hard to fault our mental health system, if he appeared to be sane and they tried to keep him, the would be sued, but let him go...and they are responsible for what he did??
It would be ideal to believe that a hospital has to keep him, but with paranoid schizophrenia it is common for the person to "fake it" reasonably enough to be declared competent (not sane) meaning they consider him to be adjusted, and harmless basically. Then they can release them without a follow up appointment and the medications that are needed. The Mental Health Act is actually very easy to fault..ask most anyone working within it. It has brought mental health back into the dark ages when they were highly abused and tortured, giving all the rights to the sick individual and none to society or the people around them! All because of what happened to them in the past. The hospital can not be sued and held responsible, thats hogwash.. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:04:58 AM | | What! You would rather that we locked up everyone who mutters to themselves and throw away the key? | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 11:38:35 AM | Dof you read everything literally.? geesh!!! I meant that unfortunately the hospitals can not keep an involuntary patient unless they are deemed incompetent. In Canada the Mental Health Act is a joke, and from the sounds of it , it is in the states too. We are doing more harm, then good to these people by treating them this way. I don't expect my four year old daughter to know what is best for her, and I don't expect someone who is delusional or in a psychotic state to know either. It unrealistic, but its a way to shrug responsibility.. Sad state we have here....
With proper support a very sick person can live a normal life, what we need is early intervention and proper follow through... this is what we are robbing them of..
A chance of life without being locked up!!
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 12:10:13 PM |
Dof you read everything literally
and how else do you read the written word? say what you mean and mean what you say | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 12:34:38 PM | romper, you are correct. our system is the same but moreso because of the diminished funding. when they "deinstitutionalized" mental health delivery here a good 30 years or so ago (boy am i getting old!) , they were supposed to set up elaborate support systems with housing and opd care. i was responsible for integrating that care into the overall regional health plan for five contiguous east coast counties way back then. it was one of my first jobs in my field. oddly it was under the nixon administration that the services were developed (not one of my favorite people, but i do grant him this) . these services are almost nil now in comparison.
the majority of schizophrenics, bi-polars (some of whom hallucinate also as do post trauma's) , etc. are harmless and do just walk around muttering to themselves while in the "dissociative "state. the tricky part is that they are not ALWAYS dissociating. if anything "most" post trauma's will do harm to themselves. with the added paranoia element in schizophrenia and no medication treatment of the problem, it is exaggerated. with paronoia they are often running away up and down the coast, based upon othe weather.
another problem is that the homeless with paranoia need some central location to check their blood levels, etc. as some of this medication has serious medical side effects. and the fact is that some of the medications wrongly administered can set up a situation just like what happened here. it remains to be seen on a case by case basis. hospitals will not keep a person "inpatient" who has not yet done serious damage, to evaluate the prescribed meds over a sufficient period of time. too costly , nowadays!
however, i do personally know of two instances where schizophrenia did lead in one instance to the death of one young man's parents and ultimately himself and i've experienced the total destrcution of three children's lives who now have varying degrees of post trauma because of what their father did to them. i might add that this man was a good man before the onset of this disease but that does not negate the deeds. he too was able to talk the police away who came to the door and by the time they found the children who were teens by then, one of them was almost dead. much of his behavior by the way, was in his mind "helping" the children. i spare you the details.
also despite numerous efforts on my part (documented in writing in the courts), this man still roams and is rumored to be teaching children to some private "religious" group in another state. so you can see my own frustration with the mental health delivery system, social services and the legal system as, myself, a prior policy person, a prior health delivery consultant and as fost/adopt mom who tries to pick up the pieces. with my own lymes disabilty i have battled more than i can bear.
it remains to be seen what the shooter's dx is but i have a feeling it is some serious post trauma which had been continuosly impounded and the importance of "triggers" is something that is still not clearly understood by the average therapist, although alluded to by one of the posters above. with a trigger, anyone or situation that brings forth a reminder of something that happened in the past, can totally whack a person out in it's extreme. if you have triggers, you must be intensively trained and be willing to do so, to avoid trigger situations and know exactly what to do to get help, if you see/feel it coming.
i know of some ww II and viet nam vets who have shared with me that they have gone into altered states, driven cars with loaded ammunition, etc. and not even remembered what they did the next day. fortunately the VA system is finally coming up with some partial hospitalization and follow up programs for those vets who SEEK assistance.
the system is so overloaded and professionals are taking the "literal" aspect of the law w/o being willing or having the time to go the extra mile with someone like this. this takes a very trained eye and quite frankly the two day overview is insufficient. it should be at least several weeks in my opinion. and if someone volunteers to be taken in, they should not be turned away so quickly because they haven't yet done the deed. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 4:31:57 PM | | The ME announced yesterday that they had failed to find evidence of a trigger in the case. They also failed to develop a theory with evidence of the shooters connection with his victims. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 5:10:20 PM |
-Hunting: Most hunters seem to agree that assualt rifles and handguns aren't needed to hunt...so why do we have them?
COMPLETELY UNTRUE. You either have really biased sources, or you're simply lying. The only hunter with that impression is Jim Zumbo.
Uh, oh, reality check. Hunting is a way of life where I live, and I've yet to see an assault rifle used once by a hunter. Every now and then you see a hunter wearing a pistol, but only as a backup to put down a wounded animal, shoot a copperhead or rattlesnake, or maybe fend off an angry bear. I've yet to meet a hunter who considers either a pistol or an assault rifle their primary hunting weapon. So you may want to reconsider your 'completely untrue' statement. Heck, around here, almost as many hunters hunt with a bow or muzzle loader as with a hunting rifle.
I'm guessing maybe you don't know the difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle?
Dave
Yes, I hunt now and then, but only for food. You'll find no dead animal heads on my walls. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 7:06:48 PM | Serenitycw...
Exactly... wow that is really cool that that was one of your first jobs!! If only we had the $ now a days to have opportunities like that. I couldn't agree more with you. I 've heard talk recently about Canada trying to have a persons entire health care record available nationwide; allowing the doctor you are currently seeing to be aware of your past medical history. If this happens it could be a big step towards getting people the right help needed earlier. Cross your fingers. | |
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