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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/25/2007 7:57:26 PM | yes romper 1, technology will always find a budget. i remember a good 15 or more years ago when that concept first came out. one of my clients invested in it. they even expect that 24 hour ER's can be staffed and surgery performed via electronic interface with a professional at the other side of the globe (where it is daylight) offering instructions/interpretations/supervision. this will be cheaper than keeping "experts" on during nite shift in the smaller rural hospitals.
mental health however is not perceived to be as worthy of such funding. a lot of people with their heads in the sand.
well my dear sombient, time will tell. or maybe not. i imagine it will take a few more months but keep us posted. i am one of those doer's (often till i literally drop). i know i sound "analytical" but often my "hidden agenda" is to get some action--particularly when it comes to preventing something from happening again!
if i can "do" something i will. otherwise i use the time to nurture myself and my significant others or else just plain collapse! so i am not keeping abreast of all the latest and would appreciate it to hear some more of the facts which you are so good at gathering. not saying i always agree with you  , but most of the time i do! | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 4:33:31 PM | The people who called the killer a "monster" on here are despicable-this boy was not only psychotic -but severely autistic-he barely spoke-had never had any form of social contact-his parents barely spoke to him and he had NEVER had even one friend-in his entire life. None of the idiots who judged him here have any idea how it feels to be completely alone and alienated for life and to never know human contact-it is a damning indictment of a society that is completely inward and selfish-that this boy was allowed to struggle around campus alone, clearly disturbed, angry, traumatised and lonely-and NO-ONE bothered to talk to him or help him. He just was crying out for attention-for some kind of help.
But our society is so utterly self-absorbed i doubt anyone had ever noticed him untill he did this apalling act of mass murder. We also have feminised education to such an extent that male agression and energy is now completely unemployed-learning is utterly textbook-based and guys have no sport or activity or outlet for their masculinity-there are numerous pent-up ticking time-bombs walking around campuses. Instead of trying to feminise boys through giving them "calming" drugs-and "anger management" counselling-we need to bring back boxing classes and competitive sport and hands-on learning experiences.
And begin taking notice of the outcasts and spotting the signs early and intercepting-trying to help these people fit in, talk about their problems and find an acceptable outlet for their rage.
As with Columbine-ALL the warning signs were there. But nobody picked up on them. Because nobody was really interested. Untill it was too late. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 5:41:26 PM |
What! You would rather that we locked up everyone who mutters to themselves and throw away the key?
Explain what is wrong with that.
Michael | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 579 | |
| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 5:55:21 PM | Note to self; Virginia Tech is a school of retards.....despite the thousands
of dollars spent on higher learning, not ONE professor or a brainiac kid
could muster enough IQ points to stop this from happening.
School is about learning how to think.......this school proves that:
a) most people are only book smart
b) education is lost on most kids
Mr Cho was an honour student in high school but did not have the
social dynamic that was necessary to achieve greatness...same
could be said about the faculty at that school. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 6:02:24 PM | There are a number of things wrong with that. Not everyone who walks around talking to themselves are 'crazy' or 'schizophrenic'. However, in this case, that is neither here nor there.
The gunman at Virginia Tech exuded mental illness through his behavior, through his writings and through his social ineptness. Who is to blame? Can we really blame anyone? Everyone will have their own ideas on that subject. Should his teachers have interfered? Probably. But - If they had, someone would have screamed 'WHAT ABOUT HIS RIGHTS?' We have become a society of such political correctness, that even when we know something is horribly, horribly wrong - we can't do anything about it, because God forbid - we wouldn't want to offend anyone.
At what point do we say 'ENOUGH!' Where did manners go? Where did respect go? Where did honest judgment go? Where did common sense go? And how do we get it back?
It could have been anyone. It could have been your neighbor. It could have been your coworker or the guy that bags your groceries at Safeway. Not all mental illness is 'out in the open' - it's a quiet disease - filled with much sadness and grief and confusion. Don't judge people because they might not fit your description of normal. Ted Bundy did that. And look at him. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 9:02:15 PM | THANK YOU !
Care Bear, from your posting I can clearly see that you do understand, so when you say "I'm just trying to understand" stop... you've made it...you do.
We in the U.S. however have alot of people that believe a law ( piece of papaer with words ) WILL stop people from shooting people, WILL stop murder, WILL stop "gun violence"...and over the decades of "piling on" more gun laws the first one let alone the last one or the other 10 thousand didn't stop this shooting either.....I think the point is taken STUPIDITY on the part of people who believe a law will and the politicians who lead this charade. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/26/2007 9:29:17 PM | cheekyirishguy, now you are a young man who i would be proud to call my son!
forgiveness does not mean a person is right. sometimes it means to let go so you can function and not be obsessed with the idea so as to be immobile. other times, it means to let go so you can use your energy, after mourning, to do something noble in response to the act--in my worldview that means helping to prevent similar acts.
cleary this young man's actions were horrific. but as a society, the columbine experts who now tour the country, state emphatically that a number of such violent instances can be prevented and they say they HAVE prevented additional occurences.
i never thought about the "feminization" of young men. more about how the increasingly "technical" world has taken away from both the engaging of our physical AND emotional aspects of self. but as a fost/adopt mom of a son with post trauma and ad/hd, i know it took almost 24/7 to keep him engaged physically and talking about his feelings with ideas about how to cope. unlike our shooter, my child was well liked and had a heart of gold, just got into continual ad/hd trouble! also, he didn't understand and accept himself. eventually did get himself in some serious trouble, but many are working on him and i believe there is still much hope because of it. i know many pof'ers have and still do disagree with me, but in today's world, it takes a village. there, i've said it again.
this same young man was an angel when helping with seriously physically handicapped children. all the little kids on the block would knock everyday and ask him to "play" with them. unfortunately his peer group and need to belong got the best of him. he also self-medicated with alcohol rather than take " prescription meds". so, yes, i believe more emphasis on sports and allowing him to move around more would have been best. he is above average intelligent, so puttiing him in a low achieving behavioral class did not help. but then again, our shooter was a high achiever.
knowing now what i knew then, i would have hocked my house and put my son in private school or perhaps had him home schooled with a sports back-up. but i doubt the foster system would have cooperated anyways. here you must foster first, in order to adopt. still, we have a chance again, now that he's out of the system and soon to be coming home. i figure everyone's worth several chances, as long as they totally don't cross the line. i figure the extra chances will hopefully prevent him from crossing the line. his option would be to roam the streets and get into more trouble. again, this boy had no chances until he was rescued almost dead at age 11.
also re the above poster, i hope i didn't confuse you with what i was saying "if" your remark was towards me. i certainly don't think you need to institutionalize everyone who mutters to themselves (lol, particularly since i do as well )--that example was in context/response to one of the postings before me. i was simply trying to say that when the signs are there, the services need to follow. i also mentioned that people who "voluntarily" seek help, are often turned away.
one of the most influential mental health professionals in my work with fost/adoption is a man names "frese" who is both a therapist AND schizophrenic. he stresses the ability to self-ID, know your triggers and your list of friends,. he self admits himself when he sees his symtpoms coming on. by this i do not mean violent symptoms.
most are not violent. however, some are, just like the rest of the population. except here, the blame is not so easy because the person is NOT in control of what he is feeling/perceiving--which in this instance it "appears" to me, resulted in irrationale thinking. now, i don't believe this man was a sociopath. and sombient, i know you do think he was. but the findings are still out. it certainly would be easier to hate a man who was. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/27/2007 11:09:45 PM | Thankyou very much Serenity CW-and you sound ike a great mother too-and i wish you the best of luck with youre adopted boy. My comment about the "feminisation" of education referred to the fact that these school shooters are almost all male. This is not because there are not excluded outcast girls in our schools also (although autism,which this shooter had, affects boys more than girls by a ratio of eight-to-one and scientists think autism could be an extreme version of the male brain as men are, generally, less sensitive and social than women and less adept at reading body-language and expressing feelings than women-all characteristics of the autistic child)-but, although there are outcast girls in schools-it appears to be boys who generally resort to extreme attention-grabbing acts of violence in response to their teenage problems than girls.
This is because men are more naturally agressive than women-but also because low self-esteem motivates people to seek attention as an "assurance" of self-worth- and men and women tend to seek a different kind of attention. Whereas women often talk of wanting to be "liked" -men more often speak of wanting to be "respected"-and of course this can be in the form of wanting to be feared if they are not receiving respect any other way.
This is for a simple biological reason-in the past men tended tocompete to be the "alpha-male" leader of the pack-so mens biology drives us to link our self-esteem with the amount of "respect" others give us. As leaders have respect. The common theread i alot of these school shootings is the killers desire for fame-and talking of gaining people's "respect"-through carrying out this hideous deed. Mass murder is certainly no way t achieve respect but in other mammal species the alpha-males can even murder other memebers of the species to gain the respect of the rest of their pack or social grouping-the parallels with human behaviour are obvious.
Boys need to channel their agression in a postive way-and not confuse respect with making others "fear" you through the power of holding a gun-or committing a terrible outrage.
To combat this-education needs to recognise and value masculine qualities such as leadership,competitiveness and honour-so that boys can play sports or learn in ways that enable and encourage them to compete-as competing against others is an important means of boosting self-esteem in boys-and use their natural agression in more positive ways-rather than repressing it with Ritalin, Luvox or "anger-management" counselling.
If masculinity is not employed in a posiitive way-it finds its outlet in negative ways. Alot of frustrated youths would simply benefit from a good boxing-class or a some competitive sport, or even a competitive learning environment where they were helped to display leadership qualities and felt valued for being manly-instead of encouraged to fit an exclusively feminine ideal of how we should be educated-and how we should behave.
Education now emphasises textbooks over hands-on learning, homework over high-pressure exam situations where you are competing against a clock to complete youre exam on time and get the maximum mark-and equality over leadership-and emphasises co-operation over competitiveness even in sport. This is feminising education-and boys have no outlet for their qualities in this environment (this is also why boys exam results are falling badly behind those of girls and the situation is getting worse)
Guns are significant because they give the user a sense of power-and respect. People fear you when you have a gun-this is the attraction to school shooters-it is not so much the act of killing itself they enjoy-but rather the "respect" the weapopn gains them from their terrified victims-who otherwise would never even notice them.
All these school shooters were crying out for respect-for someone to care that they even existed-for someone to notice them.
We need to work with autisitc children in particular to find a means of safely expressing-rather than repressing- their rage-helping them feel valued despite their difficulties and and giving them a sense of "achievement" througn a competitive situation wheree their qualtites, obsessiveness, highly logical brain etc can be put to use.
As autistic children alss tend to be male-us guys feel a sense of achievement through out-peforming others at a competitive task. So we need to make use of the qualities autistics have instead of focusing on the negatives such as poor socila skills etc, and make use of those qualities-a highly logical literal mind can be very useful iof we have an education system that helps them.
And warning signs must be picked up on early- i can never truly hate these killers because not only do i believe in forgiveness-but to judge someone who has lived a life alienated from human contact-is impossible-none of us can know what that boy felt like. What he did was terrible-but if we only blame him-how can we prevent it happening again?
We must learn from it-no matter how analysing the reasons may aggravate victims families-that is why we did not learn from Columbine-the authorities were too sensitive to the victims families to have an investigation into why tthe killers committed suicide-as the families argued only the murders should be investigated as to investigate the killers own deaths-would be to detract attention from the real victims.
But this attitude is wrong-the suicidal killers are victims also-and studying why young men with their whole lives ahead of them would want to kill themselves- is crucial to understanding how this tragedy happened-who let it happen-and how it can be stopped from ever happening again.
We must look at why no-one was prepared to intervene when a young amn was clearly deprerssed disturbed and traumatised-and told a councillor he was "lonely" and "suicidal"had "never had a friend".
How could that councillor have thought after hearing that-that this guy was fine to just go back to class and carry on as normal. Nobody cared enough-until he was dead-and that is the real tragedy. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 10:33:17 AM | Serenity.. I would hope that it never comes to a machine taking over for a person. That would be a sad day indeed. But we do need some sort of national communication regarding mental illness. I have only been in this field a short amount of time, and realize I am beating down a path many have tried to trample down before,without much luck. But there is always something left to build on and build up.
Just throwing this out there for yous to reflect upon......I ve noticed a trend in schools.. I find that boys and girls are treated so differently. Boys play rough, act out, and have "behavioral" issues, but underneath the gruffness is usually an honest, shy considerate kid. Girls "act" nice, teachers pet, but are manipulative, bullies lairs and thieves. Extrovert and introvert behaviors.. What I notice is because girls can conform while in class they are treated better. While the boys who are great kids just with some ants in their pants are treated harshly. Which continues throughout their school career because they've probably been labeled with an IEP. So all teachers and future schools are "warned" about these behaviors. Personally I think all this extra "attention" is extremely harmful to a child and actually encourages and teaches them to act out.. ( section 19 classes and whatnot) I know lots of boys/men who who have experienced this, some of the men I know are great guys and you would never know that their school record is a couple inches thick!!
So we are basically setting these kids up for failure, and teaching them how to do it at the same time, and when they have had enough, and snap.........we still go blaming them....never changing anything.. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 11:09:21 AM | Romper1,
You may notice this and perhaps it exists in place... but, not by all teachers, and not by all parents and caregivers ... the school is not the only place that influences children.
I ,for one do not treat the boys more harshly than the girls. Some girls may even say that it is the other way around.
I do not have teacher's pets, and I see the manipulation that exists with some students, within both boys and girsl. I am a person who treats people as individiuals, and do not group and categorize. My students find this out very quickly. I have many top students trying to play "games" feeling that they will get special treatment ..... they do not, and find out soon enough that it doesn't work.
We have to be careful wtih such generalizations as you state.
... and, by the way, many of these traits exist in adults!
Where do you think the children learn them from?
As Byrd stated above many posts ago ....... there are too many experts on topics .......
 Whenever I see generatlizations and categorizations, I beware ....... and I try not to do them myself ....... but, we all do it to a certain degree! | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 586 | |
| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 11:28:00 AM |
Don't politicize this tragedy, that dishonors the victims.
So basically, during the grieving process it's perfectly ok for the gun
factories to keep churning out weapons 24/7? That's being
political?
And here's a cheap shot...most people I've seen on tv that buy weapons
seem to have a pot belly, beards and baseball caps and ugly red neck
pick up trucks. Not saying ALL do, just that ALL the dudes that I've
seen. Does the gun make them seem less gay?
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 11:32:35 AM | You are right...... I just assume that people are reasonable enough to know I am not attacking all schools, teachers, etc. It is just easier to write that way, but thanks for reminding me.
You sound like a great teacher and I wish we had more like you then.
I have been in many different schools though and see this alot.
I just wanted to see if people catch on to the fact that we are not paying close enough attention... If someone/anyone is able to conform somewhat we are satisfied and don't dig any further, it's only when people can't conform and affect the public or others that we step in and usually do more harm then good!! Simply allowing the cycle to continue till the next time.. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 11:56:23 AM | | For the record: I don't drive a pickup truck nor do I own a gun at this time I do however ride a bicycle and own a very large pick axe which is not an extention of my____, and I'm not gay..Nor am I a redneck. But I do believe in the right to arm bears. | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 589 | |
| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 12:02:51 PM | I'm only saying that the people who seem to want the guns are either
gangs or just the type you can pick out of a crowd. There's some
psychological correlation but with Cho he's just an extreme example
of the type that are attracted to guns. It's a sense of empowerment....I
used the redneck example to point out that the "rednecks" are the
types that have the least power - bottom of the food chain. | |
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| Shootings at Virgina Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 12:15:34 PM | ^^ Not too shabby for logic. The missing link you want is social empathy, trust and respect for others - for those whom gun ownership is 'empowering'.
For the rest of us, its simply a matter of exposure to gun owning family/friends and peers - pretty common for generations growing up on the rough frontier, where law enforcement assistance for protection could be many hours to days away.
Now, the typical lag phase for response in a busy urban setting maybe 15-30 min. A lot of damage can be done in that time. Guns are seen as a practical deterrent by many who understand this lag phase - and the thin veneer of social restraint that stands between civilized society and anarchy.
Got it? It shore as hell ain't necessarily pathological, Ewok. In some cases, yes indeed, its a lack of trust and respect in others that causes folks to arm themselves to the teeth in a bit of paranoid rationalization. In a minority, where trust has been violated by physical or sexual assault, the need to be armed is a semi-natural coping mechanism (and not necessarily pathological) in urban settings where risk of repeat assault is higher. and response rate by emergency services is very slow
But on the other hand, in more rural or suburban settings, and with a life spent around gun-owning family and friends, its normal to have a firearm that does double duty for hunting and self protection. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/28/2007 12:24:37 PM | Usually, the truth in a controversial issue tends to lie somewhere between two extreme points of view. Yes, the NRA does sometimes go too far. But instead of scapegoating the Second Amendment, ask whether gun laws in more redneckish states like West Virginia are too stranded in a bygone era, too open-ended. We need a new federal Firearms Rights and Responsibilities Act that requires all states, am0ng other things, to do a thorough check-up on the psychiatric condition and personal history of someone seeking to acquire a firearm. Guns are not whacky noodles or frisbees, though whack-headed noodles too easily use them to whack innocent humans! Law-abiding citizens have a right to own them to protect self, family and property, because too often the cops just can't make it in time.
That coocooball who killed 32 people had too often exhibited signs of mental abnormalcy, but both police and university staff were hobbled by technicalities from doing anything preventive. I believe that a carefully worded law that still protects civil liberties and provides stiff lawsuit rights against authorities who use it for wrong reasons would be upheld by the Supreme Court if it enabled pre-emptive intervention in cases revealing signs of blatant mental abberation. We should not be forced to wait until a tragedy occurs.
Guns are a necessary evil. Yet equally, they are not toys. They are lethal, and require strict supervision and the teaching of ethics and responsibility. In states where buying a gun is almost as easy as buying a lottery ticket, this is what results. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/29/2007 8:10:38 PM | | I think the way to prevent these things in the future is to do away with guns. No civillian needs one. We also need to pay attention to mental illness in a more effective manner. This kid should have been expelled before he was able to hurt anyone. I am also one of those people who feels that anti-bullying laws need to be enacted. People don't realize how constant harassment can just build and build. It's bad enough for people who are mentally healthy. But someone who is unstable is likely to be triggered into wreaking havoc by that sort of thing. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:32:55 AM | Yes, if we get rid of guns....nobody will kill anyone. AND, if we get rid of cars, nobody will drive drunk, AND, if we get rid of spoons, Rosie won't be fat anymore!!
A gun is a piece of machinery. It has no conscience, no morality and no independent will. It is as dangerous as the person who is holding it. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:39:17 AM | | Guns are more than tools - they give the person holding one power. Now we know that all power is abused by some. Parents, teachers, priests, Little League coaches, cops, politicians, judges, you name it - some with power will abuse that power. By defending the right of all to own and carry guns you are accepting that many will die at the hands of some who will use the power of the gun to kill. For you that is an acceptable price. For me it isn't. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:45:58 AM | You can't get rid of them. Well, ok, you CAN take them away from legal responsible, law abiding citizens, and then you're left with only cops and criminals who will have them.
And the last time I checked, the phsyco's weren't running into the Chicago police department looking for a gun fight.
But, you can always leave it to the cops for protection, because they're ALWAYS there when you need them the most.
How bout this, all those people who don't like guns, and don't want them....don't buy them, and subsequently, you can rely solely on the police for your protection.
That's fair, no?
And, all the other law abiding citizens who will look after their protection the way they see fit within the legal boundaries of the law, can do so, preferrably without society trying to relieve them of their basic human rights! | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:50:08 AM | "you CAN take them away from legal responsible, law abiding citizens, and then you're left with only cops and criminals who will have them."
You pro-gun folks need a new motto.....this one is just more mindless, meaningless bumper sticker rhetoric.
Never heard that one before..........oh wait...yeah i have...about a zillion times. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:50:16 AM | | That argument had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Guns give those holding them the power to kill. Some will use that power. It's not a basic human right. It's a weapon. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:54:44 AM | Call it what you like, really. It's a plain and simple fact.
If you ban guns, do you honestly think the bad guys are going to run down to the police station and turn them in? Seriously?
That, my darling is just plain and simple fact.
What is rhetoric is all these anti-gun folks who think that you can ban everything and the madness will disappear.
Wakey wakey... | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:05:14 PM |
That, my darling is just plain and simple fact.
Careful now,
fact is a 4 letter word......to some anyway. IF these people were intersted in hearing FACTS, and SINCERELY wanted to make a difference, they would be looking to the source of the problem rather than ranting about the symptoms.
I believe in letting people make their own decisions, and living by them. If there are people that would prefer to wait for the police to show up and take them to the hospital, or the morgue, 30 minutes after the criminal is gone, let them, it is afterall their choice. It is my choice to keep the criminal there for that 30 minutes and let the police show up and take them to jail.
Now, just because I believe in letting you make YOUR own decision, don't for a moment think that I am gonna sit idle while you attempt to MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME. Because that, my friend, isn't going to happen. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 4:14:38 PM | Well the root of the problem is an inborn socialization problem. The kid was born with it and it got worse over time due to environmental factors, and then reinforced and made worse by social ineptitude and peer dissonance in public school.
While I can provide a logical explanation of the biological factors related to the development of this psychosocial pathology, a hypothetical case of partial culpability could be established for his mass murder/suicide - but it would constitute a very difficult precedent to establish cause. His parents *were advised* by school officials early on to seek help (obvious autistic, with delayed speech and occasional violent outbursts at home). They apparently did nothing, perhaps fearing excess medical costs/lack of insurance, maybe not understanding the consequences of his abnormal behavior. Maybe social shame (cultural conditioning??) of his unusual behavior was a factor as well.
Its also useful to note that for autistic patients with a history of depression and altered social behavior (paranoid schizophrenic like symptoms), certain anti-depressants can increase the risk of suicide quite a bit. I'll bet that there will be questions asked why the psychiatric evaluation didn't require follow-up evaluation of the recommended drug therapy. I would also like to know if they contacted his family about his mental health condition and treatment recommendations. | |
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