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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:39:17 AM | | Guns are more than tools - they give the person holding one power. Now we know that all power is abused by some. Parents, teachers, priests, Little League coaches, cops, politicians, judges, you name it - some with power will abuse that power. By defending the right of all to own and carry guns you are accepting that many will die at the hands of some who will use the power of the gun to kill. For you that is an acceptable price. For me it isn't. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:45:58 AM | You can't get rid of them. Well, ok, you CAN take them away from legal responsible, law abiding citizens, and then you're left with only cops and criminals who will have them.
And the last time I checked, the phsyco's weren't running into the Chicago police department looking for a gun fight.
But, you can always leave it to the cops for protection, because they're ALWAYS there when you need them the most.
How bout this, all those people who don't like guns, and don't want them....don't buy them, and subsequently, you can rely solely on the police for your protection.
That's fair, no?
And, all the other law abiding citizens who will look after their protection the way they see fit within the legal boundaries of the law, can do so, preferrably without society trying to relieve them of their basic human rights! | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:50:08 AM | "you CAN take them away from legal responsible, law abiding citizens, and then you're left with only cops and criminals who will have them."
You pro-gun folks need a new motto.....this one is just more mindless, meaningless bumper sticker rhetoric.
Never heard that one before..........oh wait...yeah i have...about a zillion times. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:50:16 AM | | That argument had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Guns give those holding them the power to kill. Some will use that power. It's not a basic human right. It's a weapon. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:54:44 AM | Call it what you like, really. It's a plain and simple fact.
If you ban guns, do you honestly think the bad guys are going to run down to the police station and turn them in? Seriously?
That, my darling is just plain and simple fact.
What is rhetoric is all these anti-gun folks who think that you can ban everything and the madness will disappear.
Wakey wakey... | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:05:14 PM |
That, my darling is just plain and simple fact.
Careful now,
fact is a 4 letter word......to some anyway. IF these people were intersted in hearing FACTS, and SINCERELY wanted to make a difference, they would be looking to the source of the problem rather than ranting about the symptoms.
I believe in letting people make their own decisions, and living by them. If there are people that would prefer to wait for the police to show up and take them to the hospital, or the morgue, 30 minutes after the criminal is gone, let them, it is afterall their choice. It is my choice to keep the criminal there for that 30 minutes and let the police show up and take them to jail.
Now, just because I believe in letting you make YOUR own decision, don't for a moment think that I am gonna sit idle while you attempt to MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME. Because that, my friend, isn't going to happen. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 4:14:38 PM | Well the root of the problem is an inborn socialization problem. The kid was born with it and it got worse over time due to environmental factors, and then reinforced and made worse by social ineptitude and peer dissonance in public school.
While I can provide a logical explanation of the biological factors related to the development of this psychosocial pathology, a hypothetical case of partial culpability could be established for his mass murder/suicide - but it would constitute a very difficult precedent to establish cause. His parents *were advised* by school officials early on to seek help (obvious autistic, with delayed speech and occasional violent outbursts at home). They apparently did nothing, perhaps fearing excess medical costs/lack of insurance, maybe not understanding the consequences of his abnormal behavior. Maybe social shame (cultural conditioning??) of his unusual behavior was a factor as well.
Its also useful to note that for autistic patients with a history of depression and altered social behavior (paranoid schizophrenic like symptoms), certain anti-depressants can increase the risk of suicide quite a bit. I'll bet that there will be questions asked why the psychiatric evaluation didn't require follow-up evaluation of the recommended drug therapy. I would also like to know if they contacted his family about his mental health condition and treatment recommendations. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 5:48:54 PM | The information that I have read is that they were unable to commit him involuntarily, and he refused to volunteer to admit himself. Being over 18, his parents could not do it either unless they were to take the matter to court and have him declared unable to make his own decisions and granted 'custody' and executors of his affairs. Expelling him would not have done anything to stop this from happening either. There is nothing stopping any individual, student or otherwise, from entering a college campus.
A waiting period would have had no effect on this incident, as the firearms were purchased well before the event and the waiting period would have expired anyway.
Firearms cannot be purchased over the internet, despite the claims of several posters. The closest scenario would be that an individual would make the deal online and then it would be transfered from the sellers licensed dealer to the buyers licensed dealer. At that point, the usual NICS background check and paperwork would be performed before the buyer would be allowed to take possession of the firearm. Individuals cannot have firearms shipped directly to them under any circumstances.
Oh, and the nutcases that bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City were Timothy McVay and Terry Nichols - my lawyer(Brian Hermanson) was the one forced to defend Nichols, despite his protests. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 8:36:33 PM | Hmm? Been hiding under a rock for the last 10 days?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre_timeline
See Feb 2, 2007 Entry.
Here is one of the sources cited:
THURSDAY, April 19, 2007, 3:08 p.m. By The Associated Press
Va. Tech gun bought from state Web firm.
Madison - The owner of a Green Bay-based Internet gun store told The Associated Press today that one of the weapons used in the Virginia Tech shooting was purchased from his Web site. A Walther .22-caliber handgun picked up by Cho Seung-Hui at a Virginia pawnbroker was purchased from the Green Bay-based Web site www.thegunsource.com , the store's owner Eric Thompson said.
"I just feel absolutely terrible that this tragedy even happened in the first place," Thompson told the AP on Thursday. "I have three children in the first place, and it's just an absolute tragedy."
Thompson said he had no idea his business was involved with the shooting until he was contacted Tuesday by telephone by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He was interviewed in person by ATF agents on Wednesday, he said.
Sherry Duval, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives regional office in St. Paul, Minn, said she couldn't comment on the gun. Federal law prohibits the ATF from sharing information on gun traces with anyone other than the law enforcement agencies requesting them, she said. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 4/30/2007 9:04:02 PM |
Hmm? Been hiding under a rock for the last 10 days?
No I haven't, and if you would have actually READ my post, it would have saved you the trouble of reposting the article, as it says nothing about the dealer shipping the firearm directly to Cho.
The closest scenario would be that an individual would make the deal online and then it would be transfered from the sellers licensed dealer to the buyers licensed dealer. At that point, the usual NICS background check and paperwork would be performed before the buyer would be allowed to take possession of the firearm.
I explained how an online purchase actually takes place. Obviously, since this dealer wasn't arrested, that was exactly how the firearm was sold.
1. Customer surfs the web and finds a dealers website in somewhere USA.
2. Customer emails dealer expressing an interest in a firearm the dealer has for sale.
3. Dealer tells customer to send payment and a copy of the CUSTOMERS LOCAL FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE (FFL) in somewhere else USA, to him in somewhere USA.
4. Once the dealer receives payment and verifies the validity of the FFL sent, the dealer ships the firearm to the address on the customers local dealers FFL. It cannot, by federal law, be shipped to anywhere else other than to a licensed dealer - NO MATTER WHO PAYS FOR IT.
5. Once the local dealer receives the firearm, he calls the customer to let him know the firearm has arrived.
6. The customer goes to the licensed dealers store and fills out a form 4473. The local dealer than calls the appropriate agency (unsure in VA if it is an FBI or a state conducted background check), gives them the information from the 4473 and awaits a response.
7. The agency then gives the dealer 1 of 3 answers:
A. Proceed - which means there are no indications on the customers record to prohibit him from purchasing the firearm.
B. Delay - which means the agency has elected to research the transaction further, and has opted to take an additional 3 working days before giving a response.
C. Denied - there is sufficient evidence that this customer is prohibited from owning that type of firearm.
8. Assuming that the response was a proceed (since he did in fact take the firearm home at some point), the dealer can now hand over the firearm to the customer.
Is that a little clearer? | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/4/2007 6:47:45 PM | Yep...Let's get more gun control..that's the answer.. forget all of the individuals that identified the shooter as being mental and didn't do or really attempt to do anything about it... Ever think that maybe if a couple of the students would have had a gun, they could have stopped it long before that many people were killed... but hey, who should have a legal right to defend themselves... I am from a state that allows the law abidding person to carry a handgun, and there have been numerous times that these law abidding people have saved the A S S of some bleeding heart anti-gun person that was being robbed or raped..... I was also involved in law enforcement in that state for over 20 years, and the CCW permit program is a very good thing. Put the blame where it should be and that's with all the "professionals" that had contact with and identified the fact that the trigger man was mentally screwed up...... I would like to see them past a law that required all you anti-gun idiots to wear identification. That way, those of us that are law abidding people, who carry a legal firearm, won't waste our time saving your A S S. After all, you should have the right to be robbed, raped or killed if you so desire.....  | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/4/2007 8:16:29 PM | Just watched 20/20, they had a bit on gun control in the States, and clearing up some facts.
One was about DC ending the 30 yr ban on owning handguns. It said violent crimes increased dramatically DC the year that hand guns were banned. While throughout America during the same time violent crimes were declining.
Also that in 40 states is it legal to carry hang guns on you. There is actually one town that has a law stating that all home owners own a gun. (though not enforced) The towns people like this law, and they have a very low crime rate
Another point they brought up was there is no difference in the amount of violent crimes really between the states allowing handguns and those who don't.
They brought in some criminals though and asked their opinions. They stated that they were more likely to leave an armed person alone, and that gun laws don't affect them cause they don't follow em anyway.. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/5/2007 10:14:21 PM | Charlesdm
Well I don't remember who did it, but he had written a book also, title was something like Myths, Lies, and Truths.
So I did a little googling for ya and pretty much confirmed what was said.
Used all sorts of sites too, CNN, MSNBC, CBC, wikipedia, ... | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/6/2007 1:35:54 PM |
Just watched 20/20, they had a bit on gun control in the States, and clearing up some facts.
One was about DC ending the 30 yr ban on owning handguns. It said violent crimes increased dramatically DC the year that hand guns were banned. While throughout America during the same time violent crimes were declining.
Well this makes perfect sense actually. Think about it....
People who own handguns are obviously afraid of someone or something happening to them or they wouldn't feel they need one. Then one year the instrument of their protection becomes illegal. How many are going to give that up willingly? Not a majority I would wager. People also have a track record of acting impulsively when their backs are against the wall....say like when you've just been pulled over for speeding and have an illegal weapon in your car?
But I'd also like to draw attention to the fact that there is a difference between 'violent crimes' and 'gun-related crimes'. A violent crime can be one man punching another, something obviously unrelated to gun control laws.
Also that in 40 states is it legal to carry hang guns on you. There is actually one town that has a law stating that all home owners own a gun. (though not enforced) The towns people like this law, and they have a very low crime rate
What's the name and population of this town?
Another point they brought up was there is no difference in the amount of violent crimes really between the states allowing handguns and those who don't.
Again, let us not confuse 'violent crimes' with something as specific as murder.
They brought in some criminals though and asked their opinions. They stated that they were more likely to leave an armed person alone, and that gun laws don't affect them cause they don't follow em anyway..
Assuming we can trust criminals as a reliable source of truth, I fail to see how this supports a pro-handgun stance. How do criminals, of the career variety at least, get their guns? Do they register, file paperwork, and wait? Or do they simply buy a stolen gun from a friend of theirs?
The whole problem with gun-control laws, IMHO, is that it is a half-assed effort. If we want real safety and peace of mind we need to ban ALL handguns in ALL states, not just certain ones. As many on the pro-gun side are arguing (correctly I may add) what good are gun bans in one state while they are legal in another? People do move from state to state and they do take their guns with them, criminal or not.
No, my solution is the best. Outlaw all handguns and assault rifles (except for law enforcement), leave rifles and shotguns legal. Hunters will still be able to hunt. People will still be able to protect themselves. But the psychos of the world are going to have a hard time sneaking a shotgun or rifle into a school or business. Anyone attempting to buy an illegal weapon will stick out like a sore thumb because in Deagleninja's America handguns will be extremely rare in 10-20 years. Deaths of children playing with a rifle or shotgun are also much lower because it is a heavier, bulkier weapon to yeild, not lightweight with an easy trigger.
EDIT: Totally unlrelated to this post, but I just learned that the recent lapse of the assault rifle ban allowed Cho to buy extra large catridges for his guns. Thanks GOP  | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:42:45 PM |
Outlaw all handguns and assault rifles (except for law enforcement),
That is what they do in Mexico, and Mexico has a higher murder rate.
By the way, why do you exempt law enforcement? What do they need handguns for? To shoot people while breaking into their homes to look for drugs?
Michael | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 616 | |
| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:57:43 PM |
That is what they do in Mexico, and Mexico has a higher murder rate.
The weapons find their way into Mexico and Canada from the United States.....where
people complain of drugs coming into the USA and Canada from latin America,
America spreads death by allowing such weapons to be created - death factories
are churning these weapons out night and day 24/7.
By the way, why do you exempt law enforcement? What do they need handguns for? To shoot people while breaking into their homes to look for drugs?
Drugs will be legalized sooner than you think....crime will drop big time and
people too stupid & become addicted to it will take full responsibility for it and live
with the consequences all their own. I'm tired of paying the price with killings and other crimes over some dude who wants to get high - why should I care if he
gets high on drugs or alcohol - his life! Why create a law that will only create wealth
for the drug dealers and cause violence? Does that make a lot of sense to you??? | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/7/2007 5:26:22 AM |
No, my solution is the best. Outlaw all handguns and assault rifles (except for law enforcement), leave rifles and shotguns legal.
Yes.....that's a great idea.....because rifles and shotguns can't kill things like assault rifles and handguns can!! hahaha
That's rich! | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/7/2007 7:17:22 AM |
What's the name and population of this town?
Kennesaw, Georgia
Noted decrease in crime (expecailly violence) after it was imposed.
Crazy eh?!!? You would have figured it would have turned into the wild west after legislation of something like that! | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:20:39 AM | K my apologies they did say gun related crimes not violent ones. The whole bit was pretty much just clarifying some general myths about gun laws in America.
Thanks for the towns name 44 fordy.
I think 1 way to really know more about criminals is to hear directly from them. I don't know why they wouldn't be a reliable source when you are asking them what their experiences are. You want to know about medicine you go to a doc, thats their area of expertise. So why not talk to criminals regarding crimes?
Ideally yes no hand guns would be great, but life is not black and white, there are all the grey shades between, that need to be taken into consideration. Like banning guns puts the "good"people at risk because we are the ones following the gun laws, and using them properly. or how the number of times guns saved peoples lives because they are not reported as often.
Don't blame the guns, they are not the issue, its the people who are misusing them that need to be focused on. Guns just distract people from the real issues.
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/9/2007 5:54:14 AM |
What kind be learned from this: " how to prevent it from happening again".
How exactly is that? I don't think it's possible to "prevent it"? We would have done it by now, no? There has been repeated occurances on a somewhat frequent basis in the US and Canada since 1975, so obviously, prevention although pretty sounding to the ears, is simply unrealistic.
It's kinda like terrorism or any other crime. You can catch some of the bad stuff all of the time, and all of the badstuff some of the time.....but you can't catch it all, ALL of the time.
Your best offence is a good defence. | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/9/2007 7:55:11 PM | Yes, I originally posted that it wasn't enforced, but the residents interviewed were happy with it,and seemed to think it worked. It just shows the range of laws existing throughout the states, and the stats that show there is not much difference between the states that do allow handguns and that do not allow them.
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/9/2007 9:49:39 PM |
and such a huge difference between the countries that allow handguns and those that don't.
Yes, we can easily see the difference between the U.S. and Mexico.
Michael | |
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| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/13/2007 4:15:53 PM | | Let's us hope that a lesson can be learned from this. Nobody or any place is safe from this sorta of problem, and the problem is to prevent if from happening in the near future. | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 625 | |
| Shootings at Virginia Tech
Posted: 5/13/2007 4:22:05 PM |
the problem is to prevent if from happening in the near future.
That's not at all possible unless you want to live like they do in Israel where
all bags are checked entering any mall, theatre, school, airport....
This is reality and it will happen so many more times - no point in learning
any lessons because the only obvious lesson is that there are mentally
ill people around and you just gotta watch yourself. | |
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