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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/25/2008 12:32:41 PM | Your sense of this issue is spot on! If we can't communicate with respect and clarity here - when we have time to think and ponder our words - how can we expect to when face to face and looking eye to eye.
I'm not even sure what "type" means....or acknowledge that it means so many things to so many people....like electricity or chemistry - it but be experienced in person. Our relationships have many facets from intellectual and spiritual to emotional and physical....there's also the hated "practical" part (long distance for example, or kids too young or othere elements)
It all takes time together - experiences together in all of those above dimensions...and even still - we often fail to win him/her over.
So we learn to get over (or try to anyways) and...as you well reminded us - there are plenty of fish in the pond - I just hope the bait of my smile is attractive, hook of my character is strong and strength of my souls fishing line beefy enough to endure the ups and downs we'll have....
Happy fishin from the Gone Fishin Bluegrass band of Webster NY~  | |
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mek68
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Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 52 | |
| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:42:28 PM | I total agree with you about the weigh thing. It is rude for a man to ask a lady's weigh on line or off line. I am not the slimest man in the world. There is no way I will ever be because I am a big built man . My whole family are made up with big built men.
Yes I could lose a few pounds but there is more to me then a few extra pounds.
Talking from the man's side of the question.
I would be highly offended for some lady to ask me . My big question I get is why didn't you ever marry what is wrong with you?
I do not believe that good etiquette should never be thrown out the window no matter in person or on line. Good etiquette is good everywhere. Rude is rude everywhere.
May I vent from the other side of the table for a minute. I just started being really serious about on line dating . Maybe it is the fact that I am reaching that big 40. What I am finding is women will pick jerks before they will pick me. Because I don't wear jeans all the time, and believe that I have a good command of the proper way to act in public. After not getting any replies to my emails, I ask a woman to tell me what she thought the reason could be that ladies didn't write me back. She said my picture was to polished and so was my profile.
I take pride in myself. Why would I not put a decent picture of myself up or try to write a decent profile. I am sure that I will meet someone like you along the way that will see value in me.
I think that there are men out there like myself that find value in ladies of all sizes. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/27/2008 6:09:13 PM | I know you are kidding, but with a person's weight, you can be the same weight and be in shape or Jabba the Hutt.
I'm 6'3-6'4" and weigh 225. I am fairly strong, and in shape, but still have a bit o pudge.
Another guy could be same height/weight and be completely jacked/ripped/bodybuilder.
Could also be a total lardass.
Women probably can have even more variation in how "healthy" they are a at given height/weight because they have certain features that may be anywhere from barely there to really heavy based on genetics. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:31:28 PM |
As for weight, I feel the question can have the wrong effect, but I have to say that he's in the right to ask it if he already knows his preference. To me weight really is just a number, but I do want a woman to be healthy and in good shape generally. I have dated a few women in the past who were overweight, and one of them probably by about 30 pounds at only 5'2. I've learned though that it's a mistake for me to do that, because it's almost always the case that someone like that simply will not understand my general desire to eat healthy and be at the gym at least 4-5 days per week.
That's so silly. I am 5'2 weigh 160 and probably could kick your butt at the gym. I belly dance, run 5 miles a day and lift weights 4 times a week and I'm a vegetarian. My 5'5 120 pound friend eat junk food, and never exercises but is naturally skinny. People often assume she is "healthy" and I am no, since I carry 30 more lbs than people feel comfortable seeing on someone my size, but I don't tend to let their ignorance define my understanding of health. Not everyone who is thin is healthy and not everyone who is chubby, chunky, too big for you is unhealthy. You can't tell by looking at someone what their health habits are and it's pure ignorance to think otherwise.
I am straight up about my weight and size and body type. I know there are men who are not into it. And generally I'm not into their male patterned baldness, lack of graduate education or missing teeth either. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:14:23 PM | While perhaps directly asking a woman's weight might not be the most tactful, I see nothing wrong in trying to fill in the 'gaps' in information left when forced to gather impressions from a dating site rather than in person.
In real life, we're able to size someone up before ever striking up a conversation. Walk into any room full of people, and I'm sure all of us can sort out pretty quickly who we find attractive and who we don't in the group.
I was quite shocked to discover when I first tried internet dating that it really isn't possible to determine chemistry through conversation and pictures. I had always thought of myself as more focused on who a woman is as a person than her appearance. But after a couple of dates I realized that even though I don't at all limit my interest to stereotypically beautiful women, there are certain aspects of appearance that I do have trouble getting past.
I felt bad about that until I noticed the number of women who are quite picky about whether a man is within a certain height range, has facial hair or not, or any number of other details one would think shouldn't really matter. And yes, some state clearly in their profiles that they prefer certain body types.
And chemistry DOES matter when it comes to finding a mate. Appearance is only one element of that, but for many of us it IS one of the elements. Personally, number of pounds matters much less than how those pounds are carried. I lead an active lifestyle and would like to be with someone who wouldn't shudder at the thought of hiking up the 500 foot hill behind my house. And frankly, while a few extra pounds is no big deal if indeed that's all it is, there are those who describe themselves that way who carry 50 or more extra pounds around. If that's the case, it's better to know sooner than later so we both can move on to better options for us.
One thing I was puzzled by from several posts here was the idea that some questions are only appropriate later in a relationship. Assuming that most of us seek a relationship based on openness and honesty, why wait to establish that policy? I've been asked all sorts of questions during the early 'get to know each other' communications, and can't remember ever thinking a query was too personal or 'too soon to ask'. I figure it's best for both of us to know as soon as possible what we're potentially getting into, so ask away.
All that said, there are lots of ways to get a sense of a woman's shape without asking directly what her weight is. You can ask her to paint a picture in words of what you might see the first time you see her. You can ask if a physically vigorous activity sounds like fun. You can ask if there's anything she would change about herself if she could have three wishes granted. You can ask what she considers to be her best feature. What she says and what she doesn't say can give a pretty clear sense.
So I guess my take is that while it's always good to try not to come across as rude, I don't think any topic is taboo if it's something that is important to you in a prospective mate.
Dave | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:29:49 PM | Men have a tendency to conflate health with weight and sometimes they get into trouble. I think of one friend in particular, who constantly drags me on hiking trips because is skinny girl friend, whom he assumed just by her weight, would be into it. When in fact she'd rather play Guitar Hero, drink beer and eat nachos with her friends than go on a hike with him. Thus, he's finding the relationship to be a bit of a drag because he is unable to engage his partner in activities which he enjoys.
Now if he was truly interested in partners who shared his activities, it seems he would look for people who liked to hike and not for women who were skinny. Skinny is code for healthy. It's just code for skinny.
No matter how many times men are told this, (my friend is an example) they don't seem to get it. Also, I dont' get why they hide behind the "health" notion. Just be a man with a set and say, "I don't like teh fatties." That is much more what is meant. It generally has nothing to do with health. My friend isn't trying to make is clearly unhealthy girlfriend more healthy. She smokes, drinks excessively and well, as long as she looks "healthy" she won't have a problem with idiot men conflating skinniness with health. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:14:27 PM |
Body shots invite the predatory type. It's like saying, hey I'm fine, let's hook up. I don't want to hook up. In his profile he is also very specific about wanting the athletic type.
Good grief. I only got that far into the post. OP ~ seriously now. Did it ever occur to you that full body shots are an honest way to make others feel comfortable that they aren't being mislead? There is absolutely nothing worse than someone stating they are average ~ when you meet, you have NO clue who that person is because he/she is a good 20-75 pounds heavier than they state or lead you to believe??? I'm sorry ~ I'm not looking for a hook up. I'm very clear what I'm looking for and very clear that sex isn't one of those things (well, until Mr. Right For Me falls from the sky and into my front yard, after a lengthy hospital stay/recovery time, sex is likely to happen.) I think anyone who clearly states athletic, should only be contacted by those who are, in fact, athletic. Personal preferences are a wonderful thing.  | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:07:50 AM | Ahh yes, another problem to adress. I will weigh in on this one as well. Unfortunately, places like the internet bring out the worst in people, and actually, it brings out the best in people as well. I don't know who set the precedent of something being rude to ask. I was always told, "the only dumb question, is the one not asked." Let's just say that this young man somehow ended up dating you, and didn't have the gumption to be honest even in his questions to you, do you think that would be fair to you? As people, not social steryotypes, we really need to start being honest, and let go some of those foolish notions that were taught to us. If I want to know a piece of information, I ask it, whether in person or on the internet or where ever else people live.
Summary:
slow to anger, quick to listen, a desire to really want the truth, and patience with each others defects, will help in finding a mate that we can truly love, and be loved by.
"Another problem solved by the King" | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 7/29/2008 12:48:42 PM | I think that there are some things that you would never say to someone in person but would have the nads to say over the net. Is this behavior rude or accepatable in cyber space. - hunt4becca
I think the problem here, is this is not a black & white, either/or question, with a clear black & white
sort of answer. While all kinds of people ask wildly inappropriate questions online, I still find it rude.
But on occassion, people are just as clueless & rude, in real life. Many people have dsifferent ideas
about mores & manners. I have never agreed with the whole idea of not being able to ask someone's
age or weigh. Seems like nonsense to me.
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And in all fairness, I only have head shots on the net. Body shots invite the predatory type. It's like saying, hey I'm fine, let's hook up. I don't want to hook up. In his profile he is also very specific about wanting the athletic type. - hunt4becca
Well, I have 2 comments to make on this. I don't agree with your idea about body shots. I have
read many threads here, where people seem to think that face shots only = morbidly obese &/or
hiding something. I think that's a bit silly & over-reacting, but then again, I haven't been rudely
surprised by people looking nothing like their pics, as many daters here have. I didn't have any
body shots until last year. When I had some, I put some up. My own experience (both personally &
via the forums) is that men tend to be more into hookups if you dress provocatively. Personally, I
think that's a crock, too. If you read my profile, you will know what I am looking for. If you are too
lazy to bother reading my profile before contacting me, don't be surprised if I sent a short polite
note,telling you to f*ck off, before blocking you! 
And #2 - why did he continue chatting with you, if he specified he wanted someone of the athletic type?
Well, maybe it's a preference, but not a deal-breaker for him. But clearly it's of some importance to him,
since he asked you about your weight, in spite of the fact that you have "average" listed on your profile.
I don't wear dresses & sizes vary from place to place (I am in Canada), so I have no idea what a size 8
dress means. But it sounds pretty small/average to me. I read somewhere here, that the US average, is
a size 14. I understand you not wanting be treated as a sex object, but I think that perhaps you were
being just a little over-sensitive, about the wieght question. Just my perspective.
It might have been better (& come across as being more sensitive & tactful,as well), if he'd asked your
body type. Weight & height combined, often don't tell the whole story, at all. I am slightly overweight,
but carry it/hide it, quite well. For some strange reason, I still wear 31" waist jeans, the same size I
wore before my son was born, 25 years ago, when I was 40 pounds lighter!
If you don't want the full body shot in your main profile, then keep it hidden to send to those that you'd like to see it-Mae B
Now, I had forgottten you can do that, you could've just sent him one.
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He also went on to explain to me that the internet is about instant gratification and that prior social etiquette does not always weigh in the same way. I feel a little bit torn. Was I wrong for being offended? And where do we draw the social line? -hunt4becca
I am not sure if you were wrong to be offended, but maybe. I think you were over-reacting, just a little. And
as for the social line, we draw it, wherever we are comfortable. His observation about the internet is partly
true & partly about his own point of view. The internet is a wonderful tool, full of possibilities, but how we
use it, is entirely up to us. It sounds to me like he may be a little impatient & immature, that he is all about
"instant gratification", as he so eloquently put it. Manners & mores vary so much from culture to culture, from
person to person. Me personally, I wouldn't do anything online, that I wouldn't do anywhere else. Okay, I
just realized that that statement isn't entirely true. I am usually too shy to talk to people, in real life!
ROFLMFAO!! 
What I meant to say, is I wouldn't say or do something online, that I would consider rude &/or offensive, if
done in real life. I think that came out a little better!
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/3/2008 8:17:16 PM | I am glad to have seen this post and happy to reply. I have experienced online dating for some time now, a little over a year now. I at first made some blunders and slowly found what works. I have gone on dates to find out that the women weren't what I expected or could tell from the pictures. I try to ask tactfully what size they are if its unclear to me in the odd camera shots they take there photo at showing tons of cleavage. 
Thats just one of the things I prefer. It really amazes me about how woman want an honest man but are unwilling to be upfront and honest to men. Do they do it just for the increased attention they will get? Some I believe do. Are they self conscious and ashamed of some part of them? perhaps. BUT SOMEONE OUT THERE WILL PREFER IT! I myself like the hour glass figure. It has nothing to do with there intelligents or how attracted you are to there personality. Yes there are a lot of men... and I fall into that category at times, that initially just fall for looks. Just to later find there personality isn't to my liking and the chemistry stops. I have made a few friends this way. That is great. Had many deep conversations and great laughs with woman I am not attracted to. I still think they are great people and welcome them in my life. Will I sleep with them or fall in love with them? NO!
Chemistry for me has a lot of factors besides just looks. What one finds to be more important like weight or physical activeness will not be as important to the next.
Be yourself, be proud, and most of all be honest and tactful about it. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/4/2008 3:26:55 PM | | Be thankful you found out early. It is like those drag racing flags WAVING YOU DOWN!I have also met several like that and frankly I wanted to run like a wild mustang minutes into dating these guys. It was simply attrocious! I could not wait to get back home. I became very aware of his controling and possible violent behaviours if I even tried to be myself with in the first 90 minutes !Listen to their body language you might just save more than time.If it gets too far out of line or aggressive you can count on me sending an SOS get me out of here call or signal to a friend or loved one. Thank God for cell phones!Trackable too!Been there done that.Had to help a few friends and havehad to get a few to help me several times. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/4/2008 9:59:13 PM | Personally, given that a lot of people do not portray themselves accurately nor post up to date photos, I can't really blame the guy for asking. I ask a lot of questions myself before meeting someone for a number of reasons, safety being one of the most important. But also, I'd rather know ahead of time if anything has changed for the person since they posted the profile and know what to expect up front.
I wouldn't suggest overly suggestive body shots but I don't think there's anything wrong with men or women having some tasteful full length photos on their profiles. As long as they're up to date, at least the other person knows what to expect so their's no shock upon meeting.
To take a man inquiring about physical attributes offensively or to assume it means that it is all they are interested in is a bit unfair I think. I do believe women do the same as we are all human and naturally want a physical attraction as well as mental and emotional. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/4/2008 10:04:49 PM |
hunt4becca: "And in all fairness, I only have head shots on the net."
Well...?
In real life... he would just look at you and get an idea for what your body looks like. And since he asked it seems important to him. Given that you probably put "average" on your profile, combined with the fact that you avoided using a body shot, he thought he'd find out by simply asking you.
Alright, so it's obviously an issue for you since you seem to think that a size 8 is large perhaps. So add more photos on your profile that indicate your body size and guys like him won't have to wonder.
Personally him suggesting that the Internet is about instant gratification is enough to look elsewhere.
So if you want to avoid the predatory type then remove all your photos and wait *very* patiently for the guys who aren't superficial. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/6/2008 12:53:15 PM | I think in general etiquette has gone out the wondow along with chilvary.We live in an extremely fast paced society where the world wide web allows everyone and anyone to be a kid in their own candy store.From Skinny Minnies,to BBW's and the people who love them,from same gender selection to Trekkies of the Universe,there is someplace for everyone in cyberspace.
I think because of all the options,people sometimes forget there is a real three dimensional world outside and tend to slip further and further into the two dimensions of online.Where anyone can be anything,no one has to come face to face allowing some opportunists the luxury of forgetting their manners and sense of common courtesy.
People seem to want to order off a menu they have in their head of just exactly what they want and will cut you off at the slightest slip of human individuality.
It's sad to see so many will lose out on conversing with someone over one perceived fau-pax.
Do I,as a female think the weight question was rude?Naah.I don't.This is coming from someone who is in the active process of losing 35 lbs.Am I overweight?By AHA standards,yes.Am I obese?No I'm not.I perosnally don't get offended when people ask my weight or age because I am proud of who I am and am always working on improving for myself.
I think the more important agenda here than the actual question of weight,is the content of conversation and motus opperandi.What is the desired end goal?Write off someone for one small misstep and go back to your candy store?Or see past and enjoy the connection you've already seemed to have made.
If something has hit a chord,tell the person you found it in poor taste.They may not be aware it's offensive to you.
Etiquette is usually in the eye of the beholder. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:25:56 AM | Speaking of online etiquette,I have been registered with this site for about a week.So far,I have been contacted by quite a few men engaging me in polite conversations.It was nice at first,however more often than not,these men (most posting as wanting "long term")after a few conversations state they are just looking for a sex partner.Well,my profile I think is clear and concise as well as catagorized as "Hang Out".I don't know when the lexicon changed,but I don't see how "hanging out"can be miscontrued for "Here for sex"...
Then yesterday,I get a rather crude unsolicited e mail from "SFGIANTS69"who lists himself as a 41 year old man looking for a long term relationship.If you look at his profile,you might think of him as not only well spoken,but possibly everything you're looking for(if you're looking for long term).It's a bit offputting that someone of his gae would send an offensive e mail to someone he doesn't know,nor has never spoken to or e mailed prior.This is what I meant in my previous post about cyberspace allowing people to forget their manners and behave like total jackasses like "SFGIANTS69".It's behaviour I would associate with an immature college jock and not someone who professes to be an intelligent well rounded adult.
I did respond to his email in kind and immediately blocked him.
I will be deleting my profile all together at this time. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/8/2008 8:03:43 PM | Etiquette is like being PC. You have to decide which side of the door you are going to play and you need to throw out the key. You cannot flop from room to room.
??Someone asked your weight?? Not in my first 1000 potential questions to ask. So block him....LEGO his profile.
Still, have you stopped chatting with someone without closing the dialog?? I mean, a few emails back and forth and then nothing? I would consider that RUDE.
Do you delete emails that someone put time into or just group them with the one-liner's
asking for a coffee date or sexual innuendos? | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:10:05 PM | When you meet someone "naturally" in public, they can see you, they can see how your eyes sparkle when you laugh, and even though you technically may be a little overweight by your own standards (I don't mean you particularly), you have a great shape.
Online, your photo is all they have to go by, if there is a photo. You can't see the personality behind the photo, so it's OK to ask, because as people, we want what we want. A man or woman who asks that question has an expectation of a certain kind.
Don't take it personally, its like going to a bar and "culling out" the guys you wouldn't be seen dead with for whatever reason. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 8/17/2008 11:02:00 PM | There has been tons of studies on the fact the peoples social filters decrease when corresponing via e-mail and IM (instant messaging). Many reasons for this include; no physical pressence (thus giving a feeling of amynimity), once sent can't be taken back and people don't write properly so there's no tone.
Learn to ask clarifying questions, paraphrase and pay attention to how they communicate electronically. Also, go out of your way to mention how you communicate electronically.
As for the rest of you situation it sounds like the who purpose of e-dating worked out for you. He sounds like he's obsessed with the "physical" and is seeking instant gratification. For me that's better than dating for several months before finding such things out. | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 12/8/2008 10:13:52 PM | "I am having a debate with someone pertaining to online dating etiquette. I think that there are some things that you would never say to someone in person but would have the nads to say over the net. Is this behavior rude or accepatable in cyber space.
I was writing someone who obviously became interested in my intellilect as I did his. About 3 emails in he asked me a series of questions and one of them was "how much do you weigh"? I was brought up that you never ask someone their weight or their age.
I was taken aback that someone I found intellectually stimulating could make such a social blunder and stopped contacting him. Then this weekend I went on a date with Borat. I kid you not. This guy did not own a single social skill. I kept thinking during the entire episode, that a camara crew would soon appear and Aston would explain to me that I had been punked or something. But this guy really was just a freak of nature.
Well after that I saw the guy online that I had stopped talking to and I confronted him. He explained to me that in the past he had wasted a lot of time with several girls only to find out that he was not attracted to them because of their weight. And in all fairness, I only have head shots on the net. Body shots invite the predatory type. It's like saying, hey I'm fine, let's hook up. I don't want to hook up. In his profile he is also very specific about wanting the athletic type.
I am an attractive person with an average build. I'm a size 8 dress size. My arguement is that I am looking for the father of my children. I would like to know that I will still have an active sex life during and after birth (I'm concerned that he become unattracted until my body retracted). I want to be loved for my mind and spirit and not viewed as simply a sex object.
He also went on to explain to me that the internet is about instant gratification and that prior social etiquette does not always weigh in the same way. I feel a little bit torn. Was I wrong for being offended? And where do we draw the social line? "
NO! YOU WERE NOT WRONG! The guy who asked you abour your weight is a complete douchebag! Don't feel bad for thinking it. If he is that concerned about physical attraction then he should wait it out and meet the person first.....don't get emotionally attached until he meets the person. But to ask you your weight b/c he is afraid ur "overweight" and he won't be attrcated to u because of it? Thats retarded! | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 12/8/2008 10:31:12 PM |
NO! YOU WERE NOT WRONG! The guy who asked you abour your weight is a complete douchebag! Don't feel bad for thinking it. If he is that concerned about physical attraction then he should wait it out and meet the person first.....don't get emotionally attached until he meets the person. But to ask you your weight b/c he is afraid ur "overweight" and he won't be attrcated to u because of it? Thats retarded!
On the contrary, it would be to waste time running around town for nothing that would be retarded, when such simple questions can be posed and answered so much more easily online.
We must remember that the Internet is a global medium and what one person finds offensive, another person doesn't care about, so if it's some rare religious principle that nobody else outside your familyt is aware of, then that's probably best not to worry about, and certainly not a reason to ignore someone without at least mentioning that you have a personal problem with standard demographic questions such as age, height, weight, gender, etc. Not something to get all upset over if they don't try to crucify you for being an Orange People.
And you shouldn't use nasty words because that's not good etiquette so keep your dirty douchebag to youself and use nice language only or some of us might be sad!
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 12/9/2008 6:26:14 AM | Wow...Smoranean, your taking such offence. Much so to meagrely insult me on an internet form in response to a post that was not even directed at you! LOL. 
You must be the DOUCHE BAG who asked her about her weight! Explains why you’re 40 and still single! Nuff said! :-) | |
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| Online Dating Etiquette -- It would be rude to ask face to face
Posted: 12/9/2008 2:58:47 PM | Asking a woman's weight is really the third rail of online dating. I do agree that its always tactful and polite, and a useful basic behavioral guideline, to act online as you would in person, so I would never ask a woman her age or her weight. I would expect her to be honest with me though if I asked for a generalized description, which often includes a dress size rather than a weight, but again, I ain't going there unless she tells me first. In the end, I figure if we hit it off both online and over the phone once or twice before a public meeting, its worth at least a cup of coffee or a drink to see if there is a physical attraction in person. Ultimately I want to date the whole person, the intellect, personality and warmth, not just her scale.
That being said, and here's where I step out on the limb and likely get roasted, but playing devil's advocate, don't you USUALLY find that its the people (men & women both) who have a personal issue with some aspect of their appearance that are reluctant to give out those details ahead of time? And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm far from perfect myself. Some who know me well might even says that applies to not just the physical but the mental too. | |
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