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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 4/21/2007 8:15:45 PM |
The good OP was not maintaining for the abuses but for the proper use of an effective tool. A class room that cannot keep order & direction turns to nothing but caos & mayhem.
You mean "chaos"?
I teach college now, but for seven years I was a substitute teacher in California. It doesn't take the threat of physical punishment to keep order in a class. In fact, if all a teacher has is the the ability to spank kids to keep them in line, then that teacher is a piss-poor teacher.
When I was working in elementary schools, I was the sub whom schools called in when other subs couldn't control a class, and I NEVER had to threaten the students with hitting them to get them to behave. There was never chaos or mayhem in any class that I taught. A natural teacher who instinctively knows what students need is far better than one who stands in front of the class with a paddle.
Religion needs to be left out of the classroom. I am pagan, I neigther discuss my beliefs nor do I tell the students what my religious proclivity is; I do not need to know what their religions are, either. I should not have to teach my students how to be Christians (or Muslims, or pagans) and I shouldn't have to lead them in prayer. My students and I both have the SAME RIGHT: to enter a classroom and not worry about religious differences or worry if we will experience discrimination for what we believe. They should not have to be indoctrinated and I should not have to be indoctrinated.
PC? It always amuses me when the status quo whines about political correctness--you people wrote the book. Now that people disagree with it, you can't handle it. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 4/21/2007 8:54:14 PM | Hey Folks
I got my hand slapped in elementary school. And I still remember it. And it bugs me very little honestly. The stupid things my parents did bug me more really. And honestly though MOST of it I probably deserved. Though I still wished for some of the over kill they would have talked it out more and picked up that child psychology textbook!
The odd strap on the hand after I probably deserved it didn't stick for me personally. It was a joke and procedural for me personally.
The ODD spank on the bum isn't too bad I think with a good explanation,
Dan
(PS This coming from a psychology major.) | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 4/22/2007 1:03:39 AM | Mmm, more of the "We ought to have a right to train your kids our way" thread. Yummy.
And you don't see "scarlet lettering" as a form of corporal punishment? Precisely the point. Should the OP pine for the "good ole days", she should be simply chomping at the bit, shouldn't she?
If you can think of one exception you think you've obliterated the rule. Questions. First, who's expressed this sort of idea? To what "theory" are you referring, and who's formulated it into something static? And, to what "rule" are you referring?
One angry or misguided teacher means you can turn them all into personless qouters of facts. That rediculous approach may be how you came to be "Parrots" instead of "Thinkers". I'm sorry, but is it "logical" (with reference to the class that apparently neither of us has taken) to conflate a disagreement with a stated opinion (essentially, not a fact) with a comparison between "parrots" and "thinkers"? Is it not possible that folks disagree based on values they don't share with the apparently absolute moral exclusivity of the OP, rather than simply "following a PC party line"? Or, is it just possible that, in invoking this kind of comparison, you yourself are merely "jumping on the bandwagon" of what is considered "traditional" and therefore "right"? Regarding the "one angry or misguided teacher" issue, I for one, would prefer to take the risk that a teacher be required to utilise alternate means of enforcing discipline than the risk of serious psychological harm to my child that "one teacher" could provide.
Quoting 'facts' is not teaching any more than your parroting is preaching or even punditing. Worse yet, what you're quoting is not fact, but a fad that will fade. I agree. Teaching is not simply imparting facts, but inculcating students with the mindset and the methods to reach the conclusions appropriate to the course. As for the "fad that will fade", I'm unsure of the reference. What "fact" is being "quoted" regarding this? Of course, if you're saying that requiring accountability of teachers regarding their actual teaching (as opposed to corporal discipline and religious indoctrination), I certainly don't view this as a "fad", and I see no reason in a pluralistic society for it to fade.
Children are not machines & they will not be taught by castrated, disempowered machines. Ah. The conflation of disciplinary authority with sexual capability. How logical. As regards machines, I do agree. Neither children nor their teachers are machines. Wherefore it's logical, is it not, to assume that teachers might have the capacity to teach without recourse to either moral authority or physical threat, yes?
And your theory fails on the presumption that all parents will step up & play their role perfectly Again, what theory? As most of us have pointed out, it's more a matter of telling parents it's their responsibility, rather than attributing it to teachers. If the parents don't take that responsibility seriously, could that not be the reason we're seeing an apparent "rise in hoodlumery"?
You've already unpluged your minds. Having missed "logic class", I suppose it's inappropriate of me to point out that ad hominem implications don't actually support an argument. But, what the hell, right?
Like it or not teachers are "authority figures", just like any leader in society is. Because a group of individual 'free will agents' will not all move in one accord unless there is one at the head to hold them in check. I agree, but I sincerely question why you apparently feel that the threat of physical pain is the only effective way to establish authority and keep order. Your reference to scripture does not make this any clearer, regardless of the distinct lack of logic in them when read out of context, as well as of clear reference to their applicability to the discussion.
One generation throws away the 'principles' & the next one throws away the 'practice' of truth. With regard to what "truth" do you mean? And, how is it relevant to the issues being debated?
Why don't you wonderful thinkers take a lesson from the AIDS epidemic. If we learned anything from it it is this, "Any Body that can not throw off an infection is doomed to disintigration & death". That is true whether the body is physical, social or academic. That's a fair characterisation of a potential lesson provided by the proliferation of AIDS. How does the metaphor apply here? To what metaphorical "infection" are we to direct our concern?
It seems ridiculous to take the chance at having a child marred by any number of atrocities that take place in public schools by teachers and other students. I do worry, sometimes, about this kind of agoraphobia, and its application to the public sphere, especially public schools. It saddens me to no end that folks get and maintain the impression that their children aren't safe in public institutions. Granted, there is cause for concern, but reacting as we do (as a nation) out of fear doesn't strike me as much of a solution.
In fact, if all a teacher has is the the ability to spank kids to keep them in line, then that teacher is a piss-poor teacher. Straight up tellin' it like it is. Preach it, sister!
PC? It always amuses me when the status quo whines about political correctness--you people wrote the book. Now that people disagree with it, you can't handle it. Beautiful! Haha! I never saw it like that before, but you just pounded the hell outta that nail's head! | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 4/22/2007 2:11:24 AM | 1) I was raised in the era of no physical discipline or mandatory prayer in school. I happen to believe I turned out just fine. I also happen to believe many of my friends did as well.
2) If anyone had the audacity to physically discipline my child without my express permission they might consider hiding.
3) Physical discipline has its place. It can be quite effective when used with children of toddler age to cure their desire to mess with dangerous things. Yes, I always explain the danger, but with a one year old, they are more likely to remember the sting of a slapped hand than an adult's common sense. Some things are not worth taking the chance of.
My personal opinion is that physical discipline should not be done in anger, it should be controlled. A slap on the hand or a swat on the rear end should do it. With a hand not a switch or belt. After a certain age I believe other disciplines would be more effective. It just depends on the child. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 4/22/2007 6:47:55 AM | Sarcasm isn't obvious enough in my last post.
Watch 30 days when a athiest is living in a christian comunity.
Funny how a people can think anyone without a god equals no values or belief in doing the right thing. I suppose I will be labeled comunist like the good old days.
In Canada we are still paying "i'm sorry money" to the native familys who had children taken from their homes by the church to be raised in a "proper christian school". Once there, they were beaten if they spoke thier native tounge amongst other things.
Talk about the past and everything was wonderful then,the media was word of mouth papers,radio and eventualy tv. People did not have the exposure everyone does today.
I do remember horrible things happening in 1970's, Johnstown being one. In our town of 2000 we had a 12 year old shoot up the school. Kids pouring gas over another kid and lighting it. Racism bright as day and accepted. Child abuse was ignored as everyone mined thier own business with everything. Talked about for a few days and hushed like anything bad that happened.
I wonder where the values were when vets came home from a war.Think of 60/70's and now.
As for kids,they have more to learn now then any of us ever did in high school.
A person 19 and older is not a kid or a child people,they are an adult. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/14/2007 2:10:45 PM | Iagree that kids are getting out of hand these days... They dont respect their parents or teachers anymore. Back in the old days kids behaved much better in school cause they knew the teacher had a paddle an would bust their behinds if need be. I too went to one of those schools that paddled an was paddled several times an it didnt kill me just made me think to behave.. an repect the teachers an others. To me its not abuse just good smart discipline..  | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/14/2007 3:51:59 PM | So FirmHand,
Are you saying that hitting brings about respect? If your spouse does something you don't like, is it ok to hit them? Will they then respect you?
I'm not saying my children did not perodically get a slap on the hand or even a swat on the butt, I really didn't think they respected me for it, I think it was more a case of learning there were sometimes not very nice consequences for your actions.
Would I want to turn that over to a teacher. OH HELL NO. There are some that would just let the paddle sit in the room as a visual reminder, but there are those that LOVE to teach a lesson. No matter how brutally. I remember being forced in front of the (2nd grade) class to kneel and pray to God before the teacher hit me. Do I remember the crime I committed, nope just remember being terribly embarrassed. I don't see where tearing down a childs self esteem does any good at all. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 34 | |
| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/14/2007 3:54:24 PM | I strongly endorse corporal punishment in school. Childern understand and respond to negative reinforcement. All this BS about not being able to wack the living hell out of your children is a major factor in how unruly american youths are today.
Prayer (regardless of the faith behind it) does NOT belong in school for the same reason it does NOT belong in government. The second you allow prayer (don't kid yourself, teachers will be involved in the act of praying) in a school, you are endorsing a religious bias in the educational system. That is a bad bad bad thing. Personally if I had a child and he brought back stories about how his teacher made the class pray to god or some such ridiculous nonsense I would raise HELL with the school board. Its the job of the system to EDUCATE our kids, not indoctrinate them in some kind of christian boot camp.
You want prayer in school.....cough up the money to send your child to a private school. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/14/2007 8:44:23 PM | April 9, 2007
A teachable moment
Syracuse fights an already-settled spat over religious expression in schools
Edition: Central
Section: Editorial Page
Page: A6
Index Terms:
SCHOOLS STUDENTS FREEDOM OF SPEECH COURTSEditorials
Estimated printed pages: 2
Article Text:
People whose job it is to explain increasingly complicated concepts to young children might, indeed, have a little difficulty getting the idea of individual free speech across to a third-grader. It shouldn't have been so difficult for the third-grader to explain it to the school board.
Yet then-little Michaela Bloodgood had to drag the Liverpool School District in suburban Syracuse through a two-year federal court battle in order to get it across to the grown-ups that individual religious expression in schools, as opposed to school-sponsored preaching, is clearly allowed.
For the Liverpool schools to assume that the "Jesus made me stronger" religious musings of a third-grader, distributed to a few friends on the Nate Perry Elementary School playground, would be widely seen as an official school endorsement of an individual's faith betrayed a stunning lack of, well, faith in their community's ability to understand, and the district's ability to explain, the clear law of the land.
Wouldn't that have been a teachable moment?
A simple Google search by school district officials would have discovered many copies of generally accepted policies adopted by everyone from the U.S. Department of Education to the American Civil Liberties Union, from the Freedom Forum to major Christian, Islamic and Jewish religious groups. That would have been much less adversarial, and a lot cheaper, than the court battle that Michaela, now a home-schooled sixth-grader, just has won.
These policies make it clear that, while the school administration and faculty are not to endorse or degrade any religious belief, neither are they to stand in the way of individual religious expression whenever it does not detract from class time or disrupt the educational environment. In Michaela's case, U.S. District Court Judge Norman Mordue ruled that the school's policy amounted to a violation of the girl's constitutional rights.
Students may write term papers about Moses as easily as they write them about Lincoln. They may gather for before- or after-school religious groups as well as for the chess club or to organize fundraisers. They may wear T-shirts that feature Jesus as easily as those that worship LeBron James.
It is conceivable, as the district argued, that some young students might be made to feel uncomfortable upon exposure to an unfamiliar idea. But easing that discomfort, promoting the concept that even young minds do not have to think alike, is part of this, or any, school district's job. If educators don't feel up to it, they shouldn't hide behind a warped interpretation of the law. They should find another line of work.
Please also see-How to have prayer in schools ---legally
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pra2.htm | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/19/2007 3:42:05 AM | Funny...
Sweet Treat is all for grown up discipline. And death on the front lines (support the troops posts.) Support of the wars in the middle east by the odd voluntary military type. In war or at least she respects NATO blackmail and the NWO. Despite funny elections in the US and a bad prime minister in Canada that won't give up the gas tax once he got elected. And no WMD's in Iraq. A seminal spokesperson for what "as one suits them?!?" Our stupid government that nickel and dimed for decades is willing to fork over 1.2 billion for out of date tank warfare! And no support for widows etc? Conflicts that will end soon apparently...
At 18 anything goes "if they want?"
Dan | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/19/2007 9:32:07 AM | Yeah, let's just beat our children into submission. Let's force them to respect adults just because they are adults and never to stand up for themselves. Let's just open the door to all types of abuse because they are afraid to speak up against adults. It's so much better just to hit a child then to find constructive means of discipline, which requires work.
Let's just expect kids to be our idea of perfect and then hit them when they are not or if they happen to make mistakes. After all, only adults are allowed to not be perfect or make mistakes.
Gee, lets not talk to them, value them as human beings, and require them to be seen and not heard. Do not give them a voice, they don't have anything to say that is more important than an adult.
Hitting children is so much easier anyway, and sure does help release a lot of built up tension. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/19/2007 12:16:54 PM | | I'm an atheist .I don't believe in a god or a devil. I support no prayer in schools.If a child needs to pray in school send them to a religious school.There are also many faiths in the school system: jewish,muslim,wiccans,hindu.Which prayer gets used?If I were in school I'm not going to bow my head to a god I don't believe in.As far as spanking I support it.This should be done by parents and not the school systen. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/19/2007 1:50:45 PM | Sweet Treat is all for grown up discipline. And death on the front lines (support the troops posts.) Support of the wars in the middle east by the odd voluntary military type.
Would you tell me how this equates to spankings in school? In the U.S. the milatary is voluntary, so how is this punishment?
And supporting the troops does NOT mean you support the war.
In war or at least she respects NATO blackmail and the NWO. Despite funny elections in the US and a bad prime minister in Canada that won't give up the gas tax once he got elected. And no WMD's in Iraq. A seminal spokesperson for what "as one suits them?!?"
This applys to the topic how? Or am I mistaken and that was just a personal attack on Sweet left over from another thread?
Our stupid government that nickel and dimed for decades is willing to fork over 1.2 billion for out of date tank warfare! And no support for widows etc?
I'm not sure where you got that from, but it is far from the truth. Wanna ask me how I know? never mind I will tell you anyways. My son died in Iraq and I saw the check his wife got. And she had the first check in her hand 72 hours after we were notified. The second check came a week later.
Now back to spankings and prayer in school. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/19/2007 3:27:03 PM |
Funny...
Sweet Treat is all for grown up discipline. And death on the front lines (support the troops posts.) Support of the wars in the middle east by the odd voluntary military type. In war or at least she respects NATO blackmail and the NWO. Despite funny elections in the US and a bad prime minister in Canada that won't give up the gas tax once he got elected. And no WMD's in Iraq. A seminal spokesperson for what "as one suits them?!?" Our stupid government that nickel and dimed for decades is willing to fork over 1.2 billion for out of date tank warfare! And no support for widows etc? Conflicts that will end soon apparently...
At 18 anything goes "if they want?"
Awee do I have a fan who follows my posts? *gushes* Yes I support the troops, your point? It doesn't mean I support the war because I don't, but what does this have to do with discipline in schools? At 18 (as you placed that number) you are an Adult you do a crime, you do the time. That may be jail, that may be probation, that may be death row (depends on the crime). It's called a "law"...you break it, you deal with the consequences. My child, is my child. Not yours, not the public schools, not the principals, etc. They break a school rule, you either give them detention or tell me so I can deal with my child and discipline them how I see fit according to the rule they broke. You lay a hand on my child,. and you better bet your ass I'd call for the you to be fired. It's not your place and shouldn't be your place to physically discipline my child. As for prayer? I'm all for it, if every other religion is allowed to be represented.
If you want to "call me out", at least bring something to the discussion that has to do with the discussion. Don't bring up the military or the war in Iraq.
This applys to the topic how? Or am I mistaken and that was just a personal attack on Sweet left over from another thread?
Either that, or the fact I wouldn't sleep with him...
Our stupid government that nickel and dimed for decades is willing to fork over 1.2 billion for out of date tank warfare! And no support for widows etc?
I suggest you speak to Military Widows or their famillies before making assinine judgements like this.
But more importantly... discuss the topic at hand. The Military, the war in Iraq and my opinions of them both..have nothing to do with prayer and physical discipline in school. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/20/2007 7:50:19 PM |
Incidentally, there's a strong correlation between religiosity and high crime rates
ok so maybe I missed it and someone else asked you to prove that statement and if they did and I missed it I am sorry.
But ...
Huh! give me the stats ... tell me where you got that info from? At least clarify what it is you mean. Please | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/20/2007 8:42:11 PM |
ok so maybe I missed it and someone else asked you to prove that statement and if they did and I missed it I am sorry...
Huh! give me the stats ... tell me where you got that info from? At least clarify what it is you mean. Please
What I mean is that areas that tend to be more religious tend to have higher crime rates. So forcing prayers on children won't reduce crime, it'll increase it.
Some sites that discuss this:
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies... The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health.
http://stupac2.blogspot.com/2006/10/does-religion-benefit-society.html
A striking example of this is the US, which has the highest degrees of religious faith and the highest rates of homicide, abortion, STD infection and teenage pregnancy. The least religious countries - Japan, France and Scandinavia - have the lowest rates of violent crime, juvenile mortality and abortion.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/correlation-of-christian-ethics-social-ills-knocks-advocates-fromknees-to-backside/2005/10/03/1128191653994.html | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/20/2007 9:47:42 PM | You can't use the states as an example! (no offence) They have the highest rates on dang near everything. And seriously dude!!!!!
Every single site you used is using the same report. So basically you have given one example. Little disheartened here. I thought there was going to be some great revelation but alas ... nothing!
*sighs*
Not that this has anything to do with the topic.
As for the topic. I do send my son to a private school. They would never dream of spanking my son but I do work with them when issues arise about my sons behavior. If he is disruptive in class I know about it and I deal with it. The school does things on a rewards system. If they are well behaved and respectful to the class they get a gold star. If they aren't they get different colored stars. It takes communication between parents and teachers because like it or not ... he is with them more during the day than he is with me. Aside from the weekend he spends more time with the teacher and students than with his mom. NO I am not a loser mom but I go to work at 6 and get home at 4:30. He is in bed at 8. We see each other about 4 hours a day and he spends 6 and a half with his teacher. I have to trust that she is doing her best because like it or not she is almost his second mom. He is learning how to relate to people though her, about patience, how to deal with conflict and so many things that are fundamental to life and relationships.That is why I picked the school he goes to and don't mind paying for the education. They say that children are formed by the time they are 5. I am not sure if that is true or not but I do believe that the poeple that are standing in my place everyday should emulate and teach my son what I believe but that is just my opinion.
The school system is ok I guess but my daughter did not flourish in it and until I moved her to the private christian school she didn't excel at all and was almost lost to the system.
It is not the schools job to raise my kids BUT thinking that it doesn't have a huge impact on their character would be a mistake. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 12:17:54 AM |
They dont respect their parents or teachers anymore. Back in the old days kids behaved much better in school cause they knew the teacher had a paddle an would bust their behinds if need be. I too went to one of those schools that paddled an was paddled several times an it didnt kill me just made me think to behave.. an repect the teachers an others. To me its not abuse just good smart discipline..
Well it obviously didn't work that well. If it did you would have only been "paddled" once wouldn't you...
I dont agree with teachers dishing out physical punishment at all, not one iota. My son is a very respectful young man (at the age of 11 lol), he hasnt had so much as a smack on the hand for years because i did the hard work when he was little, didnt let him do naughty things and dealt with the matter at the time when he was naughty, rather than brushing it aside as a lot of parents do because they simply cant be bothered.
I cant see how spankings and prayers can even be in the same thread. My son goes to a Roman Catholic secondary school and went to a Roman Catholic Primary. I personally have completely different beliefs to the Catholic Church but i certainly dont think that teaching the stories from the bible do a child any harm AT ALL. If anything it instills into them from an early age about right and wrong etc.
I went to a church school (church of england) as a kid and it didnt do me any harm at all, in fact i have quite a good sense of right and wrong. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 9:07:09 AM | This is in regards to the argument that corporal punishment is inappropriate and abusive because it is act an of violence, using force to get one's way with your child. Why are police allowed to use force on people? Did you know that if they pull you over and ask you step out of your car and you refuse, they can actually drag or pull you out of the car? If you try to walk away from them, they can tackle you to the ground. If you try to resist, they can just use more force, either by use of a baton or even a gun, depending on how resistant you are. I watch cop shows all the time and I see people fighting and resisting police because they are trying to force them to submit to an arrest or get out of a car or something. This suggests that violence doesn't really work, does it? It must makes the person angrier and want to fight back. I guess the quesiton is, what gives someone the right to assault you simply because they wear a badge? If I were to as much as grab an officer, I would be charged with a crime, yet an officer can tackle me, or even shoot me under grave circumstances. Kind of a double-standard, isn't it?
What's strange is that people who opposed the use of force on children tend to be silent on the issue of police using phyical coercion to get their way with people. I think this is because police work for the government and many anti-spanking people (not all of them, but many of them) see nothing wrong with the government using force (physical or otherwise) on its citizens to give them what they want. In other words, they may tell parents not to use any force or fearful tactics when controlling children, but it's O.K. for cops to use these concepts on the parents if they were to take them to jail for some reason.
This can only give me one of two conclusions:
1. Anti-spankers don't believe police should use force either; but they just haven't expressed their opposition to it. (Why not?)
2. Anti-spankers see nothing wrong with adults being subject to physical coercion when they refuse to obey someone in law enforcement, but adults better not use that concept on kids. But, of course, this opens another can of worms. How come kids can't be 'made' to anything their told, but adults can? Are adults not people, too? Do we also have the right be free from phyisical coercion by anyone?
The bottom line is that it is a double-standard to tolerate physical violence by law enforcement and then say it's wrong for parents. If violence begets violence, then no one should be allowed to use it for any reason. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 11:38:11 AM |
Why are police allowed to use force on people?
You are talking adult situations here, not children being hit by adults. Two totally different things.
Did you know that if they pull you over and ask you step out of your car and you refuse, they can actually drag or pull you out of the car?
Did you know that many parents do the same thing, ever see someone with a 2 year old that is refusing to do something? The parents pick them up and put them where they want them to be.
If you try to resist, they can just use more force, either by use of a baton or even a gun, depending on how resistant you are.
Never used a gun or a baton when they got super resistant, but was known to give them a pop on the fanny as a motivator.
I guess the quesiton is, what gives someone the right to assault you simply because they wear a badge?
No the question is about spankings and prayer in school which I am still against.
This can only give me one of two conclusions:
Which you are entitled to, you can even have more conclusions if you want.
1. Anti-spankers don't believe police should use force either; but they just haven't expressed their opposition to it. (Why not?)
Just because you don't want teachers to spank you children doesn't mean you are completely anti spanking. Even if you are I think that one would hope by the time they are dealing with the police they would have learned that there are rules in life and there are consequences for breaking those rules. i.e. dealing with the police.
2. Anti-spankers see nothing wrong with adults being subject to physical coercion when they refuse to obey someone in law enforcement, but adults better not use that concept on kids. But, of course, this opens another can of worms.
Every society has rules one must live by, they also have people that are in a position to enforce those rules. IF one does decide to not go along with the rules and regulations then the police have every right to use whatever force is necessary. I DO NOT believe in police brutality, but they are out there every day putting their lives on the line. They are apt to be a bit testy at times.
How come kids can't be 'made' to anything their told, but adults can? Are adults not people, too? Do we also have the right be free from phyisical coercion by anyone?
Children can be made to do what they are told, just sometimes you have to use some novel approaches to get it done. Yes we have the right to be free from phyisical coercion, obey the rules. AND if a police officer over steps their bounds, hope and pray someone has a video of it.
The bottom line is that it is a double-standard to tolerate physical violence by law enforcement and then say it's wrong for parents. If violence begets violence, then no one should be allowed to use it for any reason.
It is not a double standard to expect people to treat children differently then we treat adults. Would you give a child a sharp knife and tell them to go skin a potato for dinner? Would you give them bleach and tell them to go clean a bathroom? Of course not they are still children and haven't learned what they need to know yet. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 11:51:52 AM | >AND if a police officer over steps their bounds, hope and pray someone has a video of it.
How would you define that? Everyone has a different perspective on what constitutes reasonable force and what doesn't, so that leaves this issue as being purely subjective and open to interpretation. The only way to stop police brutality is to outlaw all forms of physical force by police. It only sends out a message that, "I have a badge (and a gun, etc.); therefore, I can make you obey me." This does nothing to break the cycle of violence in society; it only reinforces it. Using force to get your way with people can only be right or wrong; otherwise, it becomes only subjective and raises the question, "Who has the right to use it and when?". When answering this question, people would be all over the map. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 48 | |
| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 11:56:40 AM | This isn't a thread about police using force. Yes the police use force....get over it. I don' t think they'd be very effective if they tickled criminals and patted them on the bum.
To me the thing about this whole arguement that is really silly is that all these parents cry and moan about how schools are unsafe, but they get bent out of shape the SECOND that their child is disciplined. I mean hell, some schools don't even allow red ink to be used because it can cause a child to feel like they are not equal.....or some stupid shit. Political correctness has gone too far. These days the education system is more geared to avoid potential lawsuits than it is gear towards actually supporting an environment that promotes stabilty in learning. That makes it almost impossible for the teachers to have a meaningful effect on a personal level. Schools are out of control, there needs to be some form of authority and negative reinforcement for children. That is what they understand, and its what they react too. | |
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| Spankings and Prayer in school
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:35:44 PM |
Why are police allowed to use force on people?
Because they have a job to do, which is "catch the bad guys", their safety (the police) is of number 1 priority. They don't know if someone has a gun, knife or something else on them, nor do they know if the person will feel the urge to use it.
Did you know that if they pull you over and ask you step out of your car and you refuse, they can actually drag or pull you out of the car?
Yes. But they generally won't do it until they've asked 3 times(they aren't suppose to anyways) I have friends that are cops. And the reason for this? If you are asked to remove yourself from your vehicle and don't, they question becomes, why won't you? What do you have to hide? Again, police safety first.
If you try to walk away from them, they can tackle you to the ground. If you try to resist, they can just use more force, either by use of a baton or even a gun, depending on how resistant you are.
Yes, and again..the question of "what are they hiding". Further to that, they are law enforcement officials, they hence, enforce the law. They wouldn't be good cops if everytime they asked someone to get out of their car and they refused they said "ok..no problem, be on your way". Now would they?
I watch cop shows all the time
That's your first problem.
. I guess the quesiton is, what gives someone the right to assault you simply because they wear a badge?
This thread isn't about police and their conduct, first and foremost. Second, I don't think most people would condone brutal violence.
If I were to as much as grab an officer, I would be charged with a crime, yet an officer can tackle me, or even shoot me under grave circumstances. Kind of a double-standard, isn't it?
Ok what part of law enforcement don't you understand?
I beleive in spanking your child if needed. Spanking not Beating...but guess what? That's my job, not yours, not the schools, not anyone elses. So because you oppose physical discipline in schools, doesn't mean you oppose spanking. Just because you approve of spanking, doesn't mean you approve of violence. Etc.
Children can be made to do what they are told, just sometimes you have to use some novel approaches to get it done. Yes we have the right to be free from phyisical coercion, obey the rules. AND if a police officer over steps their bounds, hope and pray someone has a video of it.
Extremely well said.
I don' t think they'd be very effective if they tickled criminals and patted them on the bum.
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