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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:35:20 PM | G'day again, Rustic! Okay here are some reflections from your last post on this gender issue topic.
First, you are talking about the "norm", as opposed to outliers. For instance, you said:
This is exactly what I meant by my above comments, these people are outliers, people that deviate from the norm in society. I absolutely agree that there are some men who cannot understand other men and visa-versa. However, in general, when it comes to some subjects or personal concerns, we tend to prefer the same gender to discuss these issues.
So, if you will bear with me, I want to challenge the conventional wisdom here that being "in the norm" is a desirable thing for a child. If we analyze why a large proportion of men don't know how to "understand" people (not just how to understand women, mind you, but how to understand people at large), we might find out that a part of the reason is that the society dictates a "mold" in which a man has to hide his emotions, harden his shell, and consequently looses sight of his inner empathy. The society mold, in the name of "virility", forces boys to act a certain way, causing them in the end to have a harder time to understand many people around himself. Fellow men who have the same mold might have an easier time to "understand each other" in the sens that they follow the same limitations, developmentally speaking.
When we decide to "follow the norm" as if it was cast in stone, as if it was "natural" or biological, instead of challenging it, we perpetuate it. And our sons and daughter only learn to understand other people of the same sex, rather than learn to understand all human beings. (which I guess would make them outliers). I don't know for you, but personally, I'd rather teach my child to be outliers in this case. I'd rather have them learn that they can be ANYTHING they want, rather than what society has defined as "the norm" for them according to their gender.
Very often, when a daughter isn't comfortable talking about "woman stuff" to her dad, or when a boy isn't comfortable talking about "men stuff" to her mom, it's not because THEY are uncomfortable talking to their parent. It's mostly because their parents aren't comfortable talking out these topics to them. It could be because the parents never learned otherwise, for instance. But the point is: let's break this cycle. Let's work so that EVERY responsible human being who is parenting a child is trusted and can efficiently help and teach any kid - whether boy or girl - how to be a responsible adult. Period.
1) Is it truly innate, genetics, biology... or is it rather a socially learned difference? Q1. I believe that it is mostly biological. There are many psychological studies that prove that there are differences in the way that females and males think, analyse, problem solve etc. (population mean, not the outliers [extremes]). Yes there would be certain social aspects, but, in general its biological when talking about thought processes, primal urges etc.
Well, many scholars would tell you otherwise. If you have some serious spare time, you could check on "Myth of gender, biological theories about women and men" and also "Sexing the body, gender politics and the construction of sexuality" by Anne Fausto-Sterling. Incidentally, the author is a PhD in biology. She discovered that there is actually and surprisingly very little difference between genders, as far as how the brain is biologically wired. The vast majority of the difference lies from the heavy influence we receive from the society around us. Her last book contains over 200 pages of footnotes. It is one of the most complete research on the topic of gender studies, from a biological perspective. For instance - did you knew that in the 1988 Olympics, Maria Patino, a women, was denied her right to compete because... they found a Y chromosome in her DNA. She was (still is!) a perfectly genuine women on all accounts, including the plumbing and including the heavy influence she got from the society. Yet... here she is, with the men's chromosome in her DNA. Startling isn't it? You would think this has to be some of the ultimate "biological" proof one is a man... is it?
Yes, there is a lot of studies that show differences between how a grown up man and a grown up women think. None of these studies can isolate the social variables from their studies, however. Which leads to question 2:
2) if it is a molding imposed by society, wouldn't kids be a lot more free to be who they are without the pressure of what they ought to be according to their respective plumbing and according to the society? Q2. I don't think plumbing has anything to do with it or a very minimal part to play. Yes the chemicals produced would cause differences (testosterone etc.). Its more so how a male brain figures the world out compared to a female brain.
So, I now offer you this piece of reflection. What if the brain is actually, like Anne Fausto-Sterling demonstrated, quite similar within every human being regardless of gender (or, should I say, quite unique for each individual regardless of their gender)? Could it be, then, that we learn to "figure out the world" in different ways because the world is impacting us in different ways, depending on our gender - and that differences causes us to react a different way and learn different skills?
I turn to my stepfather and say "do you know what I mean?" he laughs and says yeah, I got what you were saying from the start.. This is what I mean.. He's a man and could understand it because what I was talking about was from a male perspective, mum could not understand it because her brain is wired differently because she is female.
I would really be curious if you could provide some real concrete examples.
Let me give you one example of my own. Let's say that your son comes to you and explains that he really has this need for survival gear and the need to spend some time in the wood with his friends, with lots of beer and knifes. And he says: "Mom cannot understand, so I talk to you instead." Now, there could be two explanations for this.
It is possible that you would "understand" your son's need for knives and survival because you are biologically "wired" for it yourself. I don't want to rule this out. But it's also possible that you would "understand" the pressure that you felt yourself in our society to "prove" your virility as a teenager, so that now you would understand your son's need for this. So - I am curious to know. Could you provide examples of situations where a boy would feel better talking to a man rather than a woman? Could it be that - perhaps - he would feel better talking to a man when he wants to feel justify in his need to be the dominant gender? More food for thoughts...
Children need input from both genders, where possible, having two parents is best. When this is not possible then a trusted friend of the family is the next best thing or a coach, school teacher etc.
In fact, my onions aren't very different from the above. I feel like the "men" vs "woman" basket is a very loose classification. That most human beings are different, unique, and that it's very difficult to sort people into two really definite basket. To me, these baskets are artificially defined. So, to me, children need input from as many responsible, different parents, coach, tutors, friends, teachers, etc. regardless of their gender, regardless of their sexual orientation, and regardless of their ethnicity or culture. The more adults around, the more round-up and diverse the attachments, and the more flexible and open a kid can become. No parent can know in advance what their kid's sexual orientation will end up being, what kid of activities and hobbies he would prefer to do if there wasn't any social expectation, and what would constitute a pressure or would hinder his capacity to become what HE wants rather than what society wants. The more diverse adults around, the better he has a chance to truly be himself without pressure. Just my two "unconventional" cents ;)
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 4/29/2009 7:24:16 AM |
"... the minute sexually dimorphic nucleus in the hypothalamus in
males has been shown to be more than twice as large as in
females, while the splenium of the corpus callosum and
of the left planum temporale/horizontal Sylvian fissurelo-
also show gender differences."(Rabinowicz et al., 1999, p.98)
"... the present data show higher neuronal densities in males, not females.
Gender equality from this perspective might be based on
more neurons in the cerebral cortex in males and more
neuronal processes in females."(Rabinowicz, p.99)
"Recent neuroimaging research has shown sex-related differences in the relationship between brain structure and cognitive function. Anatomical studies have shown a greater reliance for cognitive function on white matter structure in adult females, and a greater reliance on gray matter structure in adult males. Functional neuroimaging studies have also shown a greater correlation between brain connectivity and cognitive function in females. However, this relationship is not present in young childhood (5 years old) but appears during the developmental period. Here sex differences in structure-function relationships and their developmental trajectory are investigated using diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) on a large cohort of over 100 normal children ages 5-18. Significant sex-X-IQ interactions on fractional anisotropy (FA), a marker for white matter organization, were seen in the left frontal lobe, in fronto-parietal areas bilaterally, and in the arcuate fasciculus bilaterally, with girls showing positive correlations of FA with IQ, and boys showing a negative correlation. Significant sex-X-IQ-X-age interactions on FA were also seen in the left frontal lobe and in fronto-parietal areas bilaterally, showing a developmental effect. These results strongly corroborate previous findings regarding sex differences in structure-function relationships regarding intelligence."(Schmithorst, (2009)
Cohen. S. B. (2005). The Essential Difference: The Male and Female Brain. Phi Kappa Phi Forum, 85, 23-26.
Rabinowicz, T., et al. (1999). Gender Differences in the Human Cerebral Cortex: More Neurons in Males; More Processes in Females. J Child Neurol, 14, 98
Schmithorst, V. J. (2009). Developmental sex differences in the relation of neuroanatomical connectivity to intelligence. Intelligence, 37, 164.
Sowell, E. R., Peterson, B. S., Kan, E., Woods, R. P., Yoshii, J., Bansal, R., Xu, D., Zhu, H., Thompson, P. M., Toga, A. W. (2007). Sex Differences in Cortical Thickness Mapped in 176 Healthy Individuals between 7 and 87 Years of Age. Cerebral Cortex, 17,1550-60.
Wang, G., Volkow, N. D., Telang, F., Jayne, M., Ma, Y., Pradhan, K., Zhu, W., Wong, C. T., Thanos, P. K., Geliebter, A., Biegon, A., S Fowler, J. S., (2009). Evidence of gender differences in the ability to inhibit brain activation elicited by food stimulation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 106, 1249.
It is possible that you would "understand" your son's need for knives and survival because you are biologically "wired" for it yourself. I don't want to rule this out. But it's also possible that you would "understand" the pressure that you felt yourself in our society to "prove" your virility as a teenager, so that now you would understand your son's need for this. So - I am curious to know. Could you provide examples of situations where a boy would feel better talking to a man rather than a woman? Could it be that - perhaps - he would feel better talking to a man when he wants to feel justify in his need to be the dominant gender?
I would understand the need for my son to be interested in knives, hunting, camping etc because its also what I enjoy. Not because I needed to prove anything to my peers in school or virility as a teenager. I never had to prove myself to anyone in my life, Why? Because I am who I am and I am content with who I am and I do not need to prove myself to another human being to feel as though I fit in. I have always been accepted for the person I am because thats how I have always been (myself, my thoughts, my responses, my actions, my choice). I don't believe in trying to be something other than myself to "fit" in or be accepted by some group.
I enjoy hunting, fishing etc.. I never had a dad to teach me that and most of my friends are not really into that.. well the hunting part anyway.. Its something thats inside me, something that makes me feel connected so to speak with nature. When I go hunting, its not just about shooting some animal, its about connecting with nature. Its about being quiet, moving slowly, being aware of everything around you, sounds, movement, smell etc. It feels natural to be the "hunter".
Some of what you talk about sounds more like differences in personality rather than gender differences. Personality is something that is difficult to "test". You can do the personality test like the 16PF tests, MBTI etc. but, these are not a true test of personality rather, they test for traits, types etc.. To get a true sense of someones personality, you would have to do the psychological personality tests as well as many sessions with a psychologist etc to even get close to working out someones personality. No personality is the same, there is similarities but no two are the same.
Plus, many of the things you are talking about here are all "feeling/emotion" related which is another difficult thing to test with any real accuracy.
As a parent, I see the differences with females and males from day 1. Now you can't tell me that there is any social pressure on a baby that she must gaa and he must goo etc.. So when you see how they respond to their surroundings differently to each other, then it must be biological differences. I notice it with my own daughter compared to her brother and sister, I notice it with all my friends children etc.. Observation in natural situations is far better than a controlled environment where no on can really say that "this will happen in normal life" because it happened in these controlled conditions. The way a boy responds to his parents is different than a girl, teething, motor-skills, speaking, crawling etc.
When I was a teenager I longed for my father, because he was not alive I chose the next best thing which at that time was my friends dad. It felt good to feel like his son, wrestle with him, go fishing with him, talk with him about whats on my mind etc. Its not because of some social cause that I have been brought up to believe that men do this and woman do that. It was because I wanted male contact because I couldn't get it at home as my father was dead. My friends dad did similar things to what my dad used to do so it was natural for me to bond with him. It was a part of my life that was missing and he was someone that could be a supplement to what I needed (a father).
I see it in my ex's son, he has no real father in his life at the moment and I see the look in his face when I rock up to pick up my daughter. He wants my attention, not as a friend but as an older male. He wants me to fix things for him, show him how something works etc. His mum can fix some of the things but, he wants me to do it for him and show him how its done. His sister just plays with things, he wants to know how they work. I see it in my friends boy, He works away from home for 4 weeks at a time, when I go to visit his wife and kids while he's away, his boy latches onto me and gets upset when I have to go. You can see the longing for his dad in his eyes, and you can feel the longing for "male" attention. Even his mum says that he misses having a man around the house while his dads away.
Men are better at spacial problems/tasks than woman. Thats been proven many times, it wouldn't take much searching to find evidence of that. Even in lecture theatres for psychology, the lecturer will ask everyone to point to a certain location on campus while in the lecture theatre. Most guys point in the right direction but, most woman point in the wrong direction. Its because spatially they cannot picture the scenario in their mind as a man can. (nothing against you woman, its just a proven fact. There are many other things that woman are better at than men ;) )
I mean at the end of the day, what you are saying is completely accurate for some people, but, these people are in minority compared to the population. Every culture in the world men and boys go together and girls and woman go together. So if its all over the world, even in cultures that are relatively or absolutely distance from western influence, then its obviously a nature not nurture behaviour.
we might find out that a part of the reason is that the society dictates a "mold" in which a man has to hide his emotions, harden his shell, and consequently looses sight of his inner empathy. The society mold, in the name of "virility", forces boys to act a certain way, causing them in the end to have a harder time to understand many people around himself.
I'm not sure how it is where you live, but I don't see much of that here in Australia in this day and age. I mean more and more men are being taught that its ok to show your emotions etc. Just as when I was in school ( long time ago now), boys were taught home economics (cooking, sewing etc) just as girls were taught tech studies (wood work etc)
I've seen plenty of men in the construction industry break down and cry etc. I think the whole notion of the "tuff guy" is almost gone.. Yeah, there are still some "die hards" that still think your not a man unless you are weathered, show no emotions, and so on, but they are in minority compared to the population as well..
I was always taught that men and woman are able to achieve the same. I was mostly raised by my mother but, I still "need" male input because I am male. My mothers a counsellor and she tells people about the importance of men in their childrens lives as well as females in childrens lives. She counsels kids and adults and most kids that are missing a parent always say they long for a man or woman depending on who is missing in their life. Its natural.
If there was not meant to be a male species and a female species, then, there would be a single species capable of reproducing by themselves. But, thats not the case, there is man and there is woman and together they create a balance in the human species. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 4/29/2009 10:15:26 PM | | i'm the single father of one boy adopted and one daughter that is mine by birth i love both the same but their mom won't allow me to see them because her and her mother thank its alright that they don't have a man in their life my son is showing signs that they do need me there men like us are need for the tuff love and respect side of raising children mommy tend to be giving in to much or not tuff enough on them when the time calls for it if yall woman don't agree i'm sorry my son did not have a man in his life untill i cmae along when he was 5 and beleive me it shows i lost my father a year ago all children need their fathers as long as the man has the balls to except his responcabilitys to help take care of his children and if he doesn't than the children should have a male role model like a uncle or one of the mothers guy friends | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/1/2009 3:24:19 PM | I am a single mother of one 16 year old boy, i have brought him up on my own all his life, his dad did not want to know him at all.from conception. Although i have had a couple of relationships in the time ive had my son not one of my ex partners was able to be a very good father figure to him. My son talks to me about anything including, sex, girls, boys stuff etc, there has not yet been a subject that we have not discussed. My own father and my son are close but that is just a grandson/grandfather bond. My son has known who his dad is all along and last year his father actually tried being one but let him down a couple of months later and they no longer have contact with eacthother. I believe yes in general boys need a father figure in there lives at some point but it is not the be all and end all of it, if you are open minded and are strong enough to be able to deal with what boys entail in itself as they can be very hard work and physically draining at times then the balance will be there but if you are not strong enough even to deal with certain issues then it won't work. I get so many people who have seen my son grow up say to me what a good job ive done and how proud i should be of him and how polite, gentle, loving, caring, good boy, young man he has turned out to be. He is a typical boy, always getting into some thing or other either hurting himself climbing trees, cycling and yes going into the woods and making camps etc including the use of knives in that situation but he does not take one any where with him anymore because of the bad things people have done with them. Ive taught my son to be open minded, fight, respect, love, cry, fitness, right from wrong, read, talk, write, sing, ride a bike, he knows what its like to lose loved ones when they die, he has seen me be hooked up to a dialysis machine at the age of 7, he has seen the person he loves second to me be in hospital many times(my father), he has family values, he has loads of mates of both sexes, he is an alrounder. If i can give my son an even balance in life and bring him up on my own and teach him what he needs to be taught to survive then others can too very successfully at that.
I was brought up by both my parents all my life and i have given my son all the security he needs and the wisdom it takes to make it in the big wide world when the time comes, he has his own mind and does the things he wants to do because he understands discipline and rules( even though he has broken then a few times like we all have done).
Single parenting whether your a dad or a mum is a very strong subject and although i have gone on i can go even further with my views on it. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 8:56:02 AM | A mother who believes a child shouldn't see the father is truly just the same quality of person as a father who doesn't want anything to do with the child. Just stuck in a different role that is supported by society.
Though, deadbeat dads are just as important to the socio-economic system as criminals in that without them a lot of single moms who work in the family court/welfare system would be out of work, just as a lot of people in the criminal injustice system would be out of work if the half of the jailed population that are in jail for non-violent offenses were let go. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 11:05:56 AM | | I totally agree with you on this one. I have a son and i am a single mother. He is 4 and of course my life. His father has never been around lefted when i was 4 months. But as my son gets older i have come to realize that he seeks out a daddy or atleast a male figure ( role model ) in his life. I play with him, just like a man but in the end he still needs that powerful voice to speak to him.. So i do agree with you, but having my father and brothers around all the time as male role models just isn't enough.... | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 1:45:07 PM | My dad resurfaced after 20+ years of my having not seen him nor heard from him. He is dying and so I drove my daughter across the country during Easter 2009 to see him. It was cathartic and people who have known me for years say they have seen a difference in me.
I have thrived and felt somehow like an intregal piece of me has been restored.
My dad was never around much in my child-hood, he and my mother having separated when I was 3.
My dad was not a very heroic sort of person in my childhood.
All these factors lead me to believe that a boy (and I would extend that to a child of either gender) needs a father and it makes a difference if they are missing for their lives. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 7:47:14 PM | | I do believe a child should see there father but when the father is not interested then what can i do. I have not and never stated to my son or any one else that i didn't want my son to have a relationshp with his father at all. I did say however that i agreed at some point a child does need a father figure around. I may have been lucky but ive been around kids and had a lot of dealings with kids of different backgrounds over 20 years to see both sides of this discussion. Yes kids without fathers around are going to have questions which need answering and i answered all my sons questions he has asked, the only questions he has now onyl his father can answer. My son is free to see his dad as and when he wants to ive never stopped him doing that ever, but my son has tried to get to know his dad but his dad just doesnt want to know and my son has made the choice of not being in contact with his dad and is leaving it until he is older to seek the answers he he is after. Everyone has there own opinion on thi ssubject and all views even though some agree with others are all based on either our own experiences and opinions and what we grow to believe in. Being a two parent family brings it own problems but 2 people can deal with it, being a single parent is a lot harder when the father just doesn't want to know, i never chose to be a single mum i just became one and i wouldnt change a thing and im proud with what i have achieeved so far being a single mum. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 8:49:45 PM | | no every child needs a father figure or something like tha in thier life..moms..or dads are good enough!!! if its a single dad..great..you dont see many out there...but not all children need a father..or a man..i havent had any and im doin just fine with my mom and my lil sis...it all depends on how the child is... | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/2/2009 10:39:06 PM | Not necessary, I grew up with out a father or male in the house, Just my older sister, mom and me, and I dont remember no even once asking for one. I had all kind of activities, education and I learn to do a lot of things "only for males" My mom always find a way to keep me in good schools and send me to college, and besides my professional education , I learned others skills for the house and I got a very moral, traditional and invaluable values in home, and when I got married , I had the bad luck to find a non family man, so now I am raising 2 BOYS as a single mother, and I can tell you, they don't miss a father , I do everything with them, more than even normal fathers I know, and they well educated, smart, lovely and play ruff as hell (that is the only moment I wish a man around) but in absence of an earthly father, they have one who they trust,  They both are prayer warriors and God are with them all time. they are so popular and other parents ask how I do it, I guess with love, patience, wisdom and a lot of energy. NOT IS NOT NECESSARY, CAN BE GREAT HAVING A REAL FATHER MODEL, but is not always possible and not a requisite. MANY TIMES, KIDS ARE BETTER WITHOUT THEM. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/3/2009 3:25:16 AM | So many people are so quick to dismiss the need of a father ( a good one, not abusing neglectful jerks).
How sad.
The argument almost generically being "we grew up fine".....
Well, if that's the case then the same could be said for Mothers.
or sisters.
or brothers, aunts, grandparents....
then what?
knock out friends as well, biologically we can survive without them.
Part of the problem with the world today is how quick we have all become to dismiss the importance of people in our close and personal lives.
I didn't have much of a life at all with my mother ( re-met her when i was 16) and my dad basically left my sister and I on the doorsteps of the childrens aid society when we were young) and yet ... i wonder sometimes if they had been better people and more positive if i would have made better choices in my life as i grew up.
Maybe i didnn't need them biologically ... but dismissing the importance of positive fathers is part of the reason we've become a colder and more selfish community ( same as if you dismiss mothers...but this thread did start off talking about fathers) | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/3/2009 11:59:56 AM | I absolutely believe children need to know both parents.
My ex is not a wonderful human being, by any stretch of the imagination, but his son loves him and I would never deny my child's request to see him. While flawed in many ways, the ex has never abused him. At the age of (almost) 13 my son recognizes that there are things he doesn't like about his daddy, and at some time those things may cause major rifts. But the decision to be in his dad's life will not ever, and cannot ever be, mine to make.
On the other hand, it is my responsibility to make sure he does have positive male role models in his life. I have been lucky enough to have truly awesome male friends who foster talents and abilities and teach him about "guy stuff". I can only hope it aids him in becoming a well rounded adult. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/5/2009 5:58:09 AM | I haven't read all of the post on this topic but felt I needed to reply.
Both of my boys just recently decided that they did not want to go to their father's home again. I'm not sure of what is going on in the home but the have begged me many times since they were last there (two months ago) not to make them go again. Now how am I to make my children go back just so they can have their father in their life? He wants to be there but they don't want it.
What do single moms do then for their little ones? With mine being just 6 and 8 its hard.
Any suggestions? | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/5/2009 8:43:40 AM | ^^^^^^^^
Wautry: this would be worth its own topic in the forum, it looks like there could be some abusive behavoour from the father. You shpuld be wary of sending them back until you know more. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:41:05 AM | Wautry,
Sounds like you need to have a quality talk with your kids to find out exactly why they do not want to go back to dads. You need to let them know its ok to tell you anything and that your their for them to vent there anger..
Another point is; sometimes kids just have a lot of things on their minds and don't understand everything thats going on. There might be feelings of guilt (they may think that you feel they don't love you when they go to their dads), children quite often feel torn between parents and are filled with emotions that they don't know how to handle or keep in control.
I think you need to find the "hidden" reason as to why the sudden change in character.
If its nothing serious, then I think you should encourage your kids to continue contact with their father.
But, really sounds like you guys all need a good heart to heart conversation to find out whats really going on inside your kids heads.. Separation and divorce is a huge thing for a young child to process.
Maybe you need to help your kids tell their dad what they are feeling.
Let them talk to him but, you are their with them so they feel safe in voicing their emotions. I think it needs to come from their mouths and I think that out of respect for their father, they should explain to him how they feel or perceive. This way, all parties know exactly what is going on and where they stand.. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:37:47 PM | wautry, where on 5/5/2009 5-09 AM you wrote:
Both of my boys just recently decided that they did not want to go to their father's home again. I'm not sure of what is going on in the home but the have begged me many times since they were last there (two months ago) not to make them go again. Now how am I to make my children go back just so they can have their father in their life? He wants to be there but they don't want it.
If we let children make the decisions for the adults it is role reversal and places an unjust amount of pressure on the children.
We do not allow the children to make decisions as to wether they want to go see dad or not - if there is an order of the court, or even an informal agreement between the (adult) parties, we uphold that and work things out with the kids.
If you kids said that they were deathly frightened of the dark and would therefore not go to be on time - we would never entertain the notion of allowing for them to stay up past bed time in hopes that they would let us know when and if they were ready to go to bed.
That would be unhealthy for the children and frankly sets the precedence that any time they for whatever reason decide they want to stay up - they will explain how frigthened they are of the dark etc.
Until we can look at their time with their father as being this inherently a part of their health and well being, we cannot hope to properly address their needs to have their father in their life.
You say the father wants to be there for them - thus, you must address your concern to the father and work WITH him to get to the bottom of why the children are responding the way they are. And you need to get the children to the point where they are ready to go back to their regular schedule with dad.
DO NOT involve the courts or police in this matter - because it will blow up in your face when it goes back to court and it is brought before the judge that you tried to alienate the children from their father on the basis of unfounded allegations and / or assumptions.
The courts will look favorably at your working with the father to fix the problem.
Ultimately if you work with the father to fix the problem it will be better for the children. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/7/2009 9:40:17 PM | | I agree boy's need a positive male figure for my boy's it is there uncle not there dad, My oldest is Autistic his dad said that he loves having the youngest around but our oldest is a challange never mind that he is verbal, potty trained and pretty much is just quirky he doesn't like him before he was diagnosed he said he would hate him if he had developmental issues, So yes boy's need father figures but not always the biological one......PERIOD | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 2:54:24 PM |
A truely well rounded and totally complete kiddo cannot hatch from a single woman ever or man for that matter. In my humble opinion, those kids miss out on some fundemental things.
My son had a great father for the first 6 years of his life. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us so being his father figure is now up to me, a single woman. I don't think gender matters as the child is loved and shown a strong role model. I take care of us, I don't baby him, and I'm honest with him about everything. There are some things I can't teach him about being a man, but those are few and probably figured out on his own or with Google. He has uncles and grandfathers in the picture so it's not like he's entirely without a male role model. I will do the best I can and pay for therapy later. A couple of guys who turned out ok from single mothers - LeBron James and Heisman Trohpy winner Eddie George. So please don't tell me it can't be done! | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 3:25:31 PM |
A truely well rounded and totally complete kiddo cannot hatch from a single woman ever or man for that matter. In my humble opinion, those kids miss out on some fundemental things.
Such as what, for example? | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 3:53:55 PM |
Wautry: this would be worth its own topic in the forum, it looks like there could be some abusive behaviour from the father. You should be wary of sending them back until you know more.
So where are all the other potential issues or reasons...after all you suggest you are well read and have a great understanding of the human psyche?
Interesting that your insight or reasoning stops at the simple premise that the father is the potential source?
What about separation anxiety?
Diagnostic criteria for 309.21 Separation Anxiety Disorder
(cautionary statement)
A. Developmentally inappropriate and excessive anxiety concerning separation from home or from those to whom the individual is attached, as evidenced by three (or more) of the following:
(1) recurrent excessive distress when separation from home or major attachment figures occurs or is anticipated
(2) persistent and excessive worry about losing, or about possible harm befalling, major attachment figures
(3) persistent and excessive worry that an untoward event will lead to separation from a major attachment figure (e.g., getting lost or being kidnapped)
(4) persistent reluctance or refusal to go to school or elsewhere because of fear of separation
(5) persistently and excessively fearful or reluctant to be alone or without major attachment figures at home or without significant adults in other settings
(6) persistent reluctance or refusal to go to sleep without being near a major attachment figure or to sleep away from home
(7) repeated nightmares involving the theme of separation
(8) repeated complaints of physical symptoms (such as headaches, stomachaches, nausea, or vomiting) when separation from major attachment figures occurs or is anticipated
But what the heck......my friend is so much better educated...
A truely well rounded and totally complete kiddo cannot hatch from a single woman ever or man for that matter. In my humble opinion, those kids miss out on some fundemental things.
Such as what, for example?
Well I would have to agree with you on this one.....as what would be an example of an experience they miss out on? Something that is so threatening to their emotional well being?
I do not believe that it can be categorically upheld that a child needs his father to be emotionally balanced. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 4:12:03 PM | Tealwood:
What about separation anxiety? (tealwood)
Assuming that the children are equally attached to both parents, it's unlikely that they would beg one of the parent not to see the other parent:
Both of my boys just recently decided that they did not want to go to their father's home again. (wautry)
the have begged me many times since they were last there (two months ago) not to make them go again. (wautry)
Separation anxiety would push them to wish their parents could still be together and would cause the children to be scared of being left away from one of the parent. The separation anxiety isn't to be ruled out, because it is still a possibility. But the very first possibility (and potential danger) would be to evaluate if they are scared of the other parent, and if so, why.
Well I would have to agree with you on this one.....as what would be an example of an experience they miss out on? Something that is so threatening to their emotional well being? I do not believe that it can be categorically upheld that a child needs his father to be emotionally balanced.
Thanks for mentioning it. I would add although that this goes both ways: if the child was to be raised by a father only, and that father was nurturing and responsible and provided care and unconditional love, I do not believe either that it can be categorically upheld that a child specifically needs his mother to be emotionally balanced. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 5:30:58 PM | | No, I disagree. I am a single mom and my son will be raised properly without a father and he will turn out fine. I never my my real father and my step father was ALWAYS deployed in the military. I am a very successful woman now and my mom did 99% of my parenting. | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/8/2009 5:41:26 PM |
I am a single mom and my son will be raised properly without a father and he will turn out fine.
How do you know? Can you see the future?
I never my my real father and my step father was ALWAYS deployed in the military. I am a very successful woman now and my mom did 99% of my parenting.
So your mother raised a girl who turned out to be successful. But the topic is BOYS need fathers, not daughters need mothers. I have to ask.. do you plan on raising your son as your mother raised her daughter? | |
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| Boys need fathers...Period
Posted: 5/10/2009 7:30:58 AM | | ok lets say the father doesnt want any part of the child. I have been mom and dad for the last 11 years and my child seems to be fine in every aspect. My child has the respect, love, caring, honest,trust that it takes to be the person she is today with the Thank Yous going to me, my mom, my sister, my niece. I play sports, talk, and enjoy the life that we have. If one day I do happen to find the one man willing to accept the fact that I do have a child at my age, willing to be a part of my life first and if he chooses to be a part of my childs life if things work out and understands that I am a 24/7 parent than its meant to be, if not than I will still be the same person I am and the best parent I can be. | |
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