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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 2:17:11 PM | Well I guess the question to the patron should be " Have you made the CHOICE within your REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS wether your FETUS will be CARRIED TO TERM?
In fact why question it at all, especially if you are a waiter. Men have no right to participate in the protection of unborn children ,,,uuhh,, I mean fetuses. They only have responsibilties as demanded by the CHOICE of the CARRIER. Carrier thats acceptable, right, I mean she is only a mother when she makes that CHOICE. And when a women makes a CHOICE she never changes her mind or regrets the results of said CHOICE.
"terminate a pregnancy" does sound better than "refusal to carry a child to term" I guess that keeps the conscience clean. But what do I know anyway, I'm just a man.
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 2:17:29 PM | "No Silk Shirts" is no different than "No Maternity Wear", it is completely enforcable and will withstand a law suit just aswell.
Men have no right to participate in the protection of unborn children ,,,uuhh,, I mean fetuses. ^^^ No kidding. But remember you have the "right" to pay for that kids' care, possibly forever if it is FAS no matter what your choice on pre-natal care was. For below : I would "make a mistake" in identification od said maternity wear  Go ahead sue for a simple mistake, safe bet is it would cost more than you would get and the embarassment and public scorn when the event is publish in local news will make it unworthy for you to pursue. And it is no more "stupid" that not serving you because you are wearring a silk shirt or trucker hat. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 2:24:42 PM | ^^^
I know lots of pregnant women that wear their regular clothing throughout their pregnancy. So if I'm pg, and I come into your bar, and I'm wearing my regular slacks and button down shirt, then what are you gonna do?
I seriously don't believe that you can not serve a pregnant woman because she has maternity clothes on. That really is stupid. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 3:20:47 PM | With many women you cannot even see their pregnancies until the 4th 5th or 6th month, some even later than that.
The Danger zone with alcohol is in the first four weeks when many women do not even realise they are pregnant. A woman one month pregnant looks no different than a woman who is not pregnant. In fact your idea that you could refuse service on dress code only works where a woman is visibly pregnant, and well beyond the stage where one drink is going to cause harm (meaning at the stage where it is three or more drinks in a night to cause harm)
As soon as you place a dress code which discriminates based on something foolish like fat clothes, you are losing your business. And by that you are only refusing over weight women... discrimination due to sexism right there. Bye bye bartender.
No one here is saying it is ok for pregnant women to get drunk. The occasional drink rarely does severe harm. Most women have had a drink or three after getting pregnant, prior to discovering that they were pregnant. Considering the number of times pregnancies have been attributed to one drunken night and failed protection, it is a small miracle that 90% of the population of "surprise" children are not suffering from FAS, by the "logic" given by many here. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:18:26 PM | 1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic. something that serves to differentiate.
dictionary.com
Think again, pregnant women would be a category, thus discrimination. Whether it specifically states pregnant women or not, it would stand up in court and the woman's rights would be upheld. Further, ignorance serves no purpose, what makes you think referencing fat people in anyway negates your discrimination? | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:35:06 PM | Yes there are misty buty look at the law, you ARE allowed to discriminate. Sorry to burst thye bubble but discrinimation is only pertinent when it is based on the SPECIFIED types of discrimination that are illegal.
Not tall enough to get on that ride? Oh well sue for "discrimination".
Want that apartment but it is non-smoking only and you are a smoker? Well sue for discrimination.
It just does not apply. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:38:50 PM | As a parent of 2 children with FASD, I would say that at any stage of pregnancy it is harmful and can cause detrimental effects in children. The 1st trimester is critical in that alcohol can and will cause physical manifestations to occur. But the severity and impact of FASD continues the entire pregnancy. I am by no means promoting or sanctioning alcohol useage at any time during pregnancy is danaging and unacceptable in my opinion; however, I am also an advocate for marginalized groups. Individual rights have to be respected. My children struggle everyday with the impact of FASD, but they are beautiful amazing people too, I understand the cost of in-utero alcohol use, its my reality every moment of every day of the year. I still believe in the person's rights.
Just Some Basic Info on FASD
“Fetal alcohol spectrum disorders” (FASD) is an umbrella term describing the range of
effects that can occur in an individual whose mother drank alcohol during pregnancy. These effects may include physical, mental, behavioral, and/or learning disabilities with possible lifelong implications. FASD is not a diagnostic term used by clinicians. It refers to conditions such as:
• Fetal alcohol syndrome, including partial FAS
• Fetal alcohol effects (FAE)
• Alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder
• Alcohol-related birth defects
There is no cure for Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD). Often FASD occurs in conjunction with other debilitating disorders such as Depression, OCD, GAD, ADHD, ODD, AD/RAD
People with FASD have brain damage that lasts for their lifetime.
Drinking alcohol anytime during pregnancy can cause Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD). FASD is single cause of mental and developmental disabilities in most industrialized countries such as Canada and a root cause of numerous health and social difficulties.
People with FASD are at high risk of having birth defects, learning disabilities, chronic health issues, drug addiction, alcoholism and mental illness. There is only 3 days during gestation (19-21) that alcohol can cause the trademark facial features of an FASD child. More often than not, children with FASD do not present with any physical attributes associated with FASD.
Individuals affected are also at high risk of experiencing child abuse, chronic unemployment, poverty, homelessness, and trouble with the law. No amount of alcohol and no time in pregnancy have been established as safe for the fetus.
Less obvious and seemingly milder fetal alcohol damage is sometimes called Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE). This term has fallen out of use and has been largely replaced by Alcohol-Related Neurodevelopmental Disorder (ARND), Partial Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (pFAS) or Static Encephalopathy otherwise known as FASD.
• These conditions can be equally damaging to babies but are rarely diagnosed. (To keep this simple, we are going to call it all FASD.) Of individuals with FASD/ARND between the ages of 12 and 51,
• 95% will have mental health problems;
• 68% will have "disrupted school experience";
• 68% will experience trouble with the law;
• 55% will be confined in prison, drug or alcohol treatment centre or mental institution;
• 52% will exhibit inappropriate sexual behavior
Researchers believe that as many as 30 births in a 1000 are affected with FASD, which is estimated to cost more than $2 million per person in North America. Intervention and support from the community is essential in order to reduce the cost | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:46:24 PM | It's unrealistic to expect a ban on pregnant women to stand up under the law, just because it isn't specified doesn't mean its not protected. How are you going to identify a pregnant woman? Even an advanced pregnancy can be hidden or disguised, and there are plenty of women who are plus sized who appear to be pregnant...how can you enforce a ban? Without further infringing on individual rights? Ask for negative pregnancy test?
Reality is that an establishment cannot ban pregnant women based on that fact alone. Believe me if it could be done without violating a woman's rights, I'd be the first in line to make that law. Best choices are education and support be proactive and involved. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 8:51:27 PM | I think it should be illegal (as hell) to drink, smoke, and do drugs while your pregnant. I think as parents- it's our duty to give our kids the best fighting chance at life.
I also keep thinking....and I could be wrong....but it seems like you can be charged with some sort of crime (criminal neglect?) if your child is born with FAS or addicted to drugs....not sure though.
People who don't look out for the best interest of their child(ren)- unborn or born- should have to be sterilized. Call it the "Spay and Nueter" law. Saving kids from abuse and neglect on snip at a time...... | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 9:20:41 PM | | Not in Canada or specifically Alberta, your child will likely be apprehended or you will have to have some level of intervention from Children's Services. I agree with you it should be illegal, and I myself have thought about "spay and neuter" programs. But again that comes back to rights and who holds the power to make those choices..... | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/25/2007 9:56:35 PM | Is it okay for me to have a couple drinks(which would put me over the legal limit and slightly impair my reaction time) and go and drive? Say I hit someone and injure them. That is wrong and illegal. I can be sued and held accountable, as well as charged and jailed. So, why is okay to have a couple drinks and risk your child's (fetus') life? That's your own flesh and blood.
I have a child that was born with a congenital defect that was a "freak" incident. I did everything in my power to have a healthy baby. I abstained from alcohol, caffeine, tuna(blech) etc. Did all the regular prenatal care and check ups. I know the heart break of almost losing a child and I did nothing wrong. I still felt immense guilt and blamed myself for a long time. If I actually drank and had a child born with a disability that I caused.....I would feel like crap. I wish more mothers felt this way. No child should be born with FASD....it is 100% preventable. Abstain from drinking when pregnant...period. No risks..no worries. There are enough children born with health issues that couldn't be prevented. Why add to the strain on the health system and risk a child with FASD?
I'm with the OP. I would risk my dime a dozen job(in this province anyhow) and not serve her. It would at least give that pregnant mom something to think about..... | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 3:21:24 AM | My OB/GYN told me that fetal alcohol syndrome, while a serious injury to the child, requires at least six drinks a day for the entire duration of the pregnancy in order to manifest itself into any recognizable affliction.
He pointed out if drinking during pregnancy caused problems as severe as the hype alludes, all of Europe would be born retarded.
Joking aside, when no clean drinking water was available, men, women and children drank beer as the only source of liquid.
PS. If you know someone who can't make milk for her baby, just give her a beer. It jump-starts milk production. That's from thousands of lactation specialists all over the world. And no, their babies are not retarded. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 3:23:54 AM | I don't know if this has been touched on yet, but every establishment 'reserves the right to refuse service to anyone'. If it were one glass of wine, I'd probably serve her. But in my bartending days, I had a pregnant woman come in to the place I worked literally falling down drunk. We did not serve her, and I in fact asked her friends to get her out of there. It was one of the saddest things I'd ever seen.  | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 6:26:45 AM | I think bottom line, put our beliefs and opinons aside... Did the waitress do the right thing? Morally-some could agrue either way. Legally-even though its not illegal to drink while pregnant, at the same time there is a child(fetus) a life involved 1 drink may not effect the baby but how did the waitress know that this woman wasn't an alkie who doesn't care if she drinks or not... More than likely this pregnant woman was just having a drink not getting drunk.. I think the waitress did her best to make a choice right or wrong.. That pregnant woman could of easily got up and went to the bar herself and got her drink...
It's a waitresses call weither or not to serve someone.. Most bars have the right to refuse services. ex:a guy/girl causing trouble, a person too drunk, wearing gang colors, no ID and etc, etc..
My opinon stands, I don't think its worth the risk to knowingly drink when pregnant.. I also said before if a pregnant woman decides to do risky behaviour like drinking, educate and monitoration is the key! Know the risk and conquences, talk to a doctor, be honest and discuss how much is ok and not ok.. Some may agrue 1 can not harm a unborn baby and some may disagree. It's hard to tell!
Someone said what about spinal bifa, down syndrom and something else, those are birth affect mainly due a missing genes or cromonzones(sp)nothing to do with alcohol. Alcohol birth defects are not usually detected untill after birth and even years later. Those specific disabilities a person mention are tested for and can be aware of before birth!! | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 7:57:32 AM | Yes the waitress was perfectly entitled to do what she did-it is just the same as here in Britain many National Health Service doctors and medical professionals are "conscientious objectors"to abortion services-and they are allowed legally to opt out of helping a woman with abortion services-even though you could argue, just like the bartender-its the doctor's job and his personasl morality should not come into it.
And of course this is nothing like not serving someone because they are black or are a different sexuality etc, this is about saving an innocent child from potential defects caused by the mothers behaviour.
Interesting-theres alot of posts about deadbeat dads being selfish towards children-or selfishly not paying child-support etc-is it not equally selfish for a mother to knowingly put her unborn childs health at risk by smoking and drinking?
You could argue this is worse than dads who dont pay child-support-an expectant mother who smokes or drinks significant amounts while pregnant KNOWS she is putting her childs health at risk-and still does it.
The bartender had every right to object on moral grounds-its the same as cdoctors who object top abortion on moral grounds-they know the woman will just go to another doctor for her abortion anyway-but the point is the consciecious objector doesnt want to be the one who helped her have the abortion-even though he knows she will have it anyway with another doctor. So similarly when the bartender refuses her a drink this woman may simply go to another bar to get served-but at least that bartender knows SHE didnt help this woman hurt her child-so her conscience is clear.
We must have a society that allows people to hold morals-and act on them-moral convictions or the religious beliefs that inform them are not-and should not-be something that you can just leave at the door whenever you go to work. This bartender felt she was saving a child from harm she acted selflessly-that is a noble thing to do and she should be congratulated-not lampooned.
I agree with Loonytunez-ive noticed theres alot of talk on here about "womens rights"-what about the rights of the helpless unborn child?
Does that child not have the right not to be poisoned with alcohol or cigarettes?
Are we in such a selfish society that the "right "of a mother to party and get boozed-up come before the needs of her unborn child?
We should give unborn children the same legal protection that we give newborn children. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 2:19:10 PM | By whose morals? Yours? Mine? The President/Prime Minister? Acting on moral beliefs have causd some of the greatest losses of human lives in recorded history. Imposing your morality onto someone is oppression and wrong. I do think we have a ridiculous society that stygmatizes people based on sex, race, ethnicity, gender, orientation etc.. the list is endless. Anyone not part of the dominate group in society are considered deviant and second class citizens.
Just because the choices and actions of a person are in conflict with your morals, doesn't give you the right to judge them or enforce your beliefs onto them. If we want to discuss blame why not discuss society's role of enabling and sanctioning alcoholism, substance abuse,sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, loss, abandonment, mental health, poverty, undereducation, isolation and the hundred other factors that contribute to the choices we make as people. Yes people make horrible choices, and yes children often pay the price for those choices. I know what it means to live everyday with them.
I am not trying to stand on a soap box, but I admit I am upset. People bash men continuously over being dead beats, abusers, etc...and thats wrong, women are just as guilty of the same things. 1 thing I have noticed as a theme is that there is a whole lot of bashing pregnant women and virtually no solutions. Banning and oppressing women won't work, they'll just find someone else some place else to get it. Changing laws to criminalize alcohol use during pregnancy isn't going to eliminate it, only drive it underground where women won't attempt to seek help, children will be at further risk and the damaging impact substantially higher. It's not illegall to use drugs or tobacco and both are proven to cause significant harm to fetuses and babies.
Instead of ostrasizing women who drink, be an active participant in your communities, get the word out proactively, educate especially young women in schools and in marginalized areas like poor districts or ethnic neighborhoods. Lobby for funding for programs, there is an extreme deficit in detox treatment programs for expecting moms. You want to help children born with FASD? Stand up and advocate for positive change.
I don't like nor enable alcohol use with expecting moms. Both my children live with the repercussions of their biological parents choices. My oldest is severely impacted he will spend his life in care, never knowing what love is or how to give or get love, what it is like to live on your own, have friendships, make choices, have a job, experience school. Everyday of his life he will have the mind of an 7 yr old. Do you have any concept of what it is like to have a child you love and know its impossible for them to love you back? To know he isn't capable of love, or of caring about anyone, to see your younger child continue to develop and surpass the developmental stage of their older sibling? I do every damn day I live with FASD and all the other crap that comes with children of drug and alcohol using parents.
I've spent 20 yrs living with and working with children in need, I understand it, but I also understand that when mothers drink it isn't for the hell of it, there is a bigger picture there. Punishing her won't help her or her child. She has inate rights as a human being which must be respected like it or not. No amount of alcohol is safe to drink not 1 glass of wine, beer, or high ball. Anyone who says different hasn't lived with the consequences. All I am saying is they need help not harm.
Misty | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 2:29:18 PM | The odd drink is not suppost to harm an unborn child but parents who have had children born with ffs (featol alcohol syndrome) may not agree. Unborn children are unable to get rid of alcohol that is in there systems because the mother has drank so maybe there should be a law, personally if I became pregnant again I wouldn't drink.
The same could be said about smoking when pregnant but its all down to personal choice ain't it? | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 5:46:52 PM | | well now in alot of bars they have signs now posted " no drinking while pregnant in our bar " it has a very preg mother as a pic ..............in some areas of Ont canada anyway | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/26/2007 9:50:29 PM | Acting on moral beliefs has not caused some of the greatest disasters in history-give me any example and i could tell you that moral beliefs had nothing to do with it-if you refer to war-the history of conflict clearly demonstrates power and territorial interests were much more of a key player than moral beliefs in fuelling conflcit-moral belief is more often used as a justification for disastrous actions-than is actually the motivation for those actions.(For example George Bush often uses moral beliefs to jutify actions such as the Iraq War that are in fact motivated by corporate interests and geopolitics)
And acting on moral beliefs has led to some of the greatest moments in history-for example Gandhi or Mother Theresa etc people who acted on moral beliefs and strong convictions with incredible selflessness and heroism to extraordinary effect.
This woman is very noble-because she wanted to protect the unborn child from the potentially damaging effects of alcohol-she was aware that she would not just be serving the pregnant lady-she would also be serving alcohol indirectly to the child growing inside her.
It is not imposing her morality-professionals are allowed to opt out of providing services on moral grounds all the time-doctors here in Britain regularly opt-out of abortion services on conscietious grounds-and they should absolutely be allowed to-my father who worked in the medical field would never have put himself in a position where he had to help a woman have an abortion or give abortion support-becausehe believes the right to life is the most fundamental right for all humans-and he was as opposed to abortion as he is to the death penalty.
This bartender was not basing this on persoanl morality-but on evidence. because fetal-alcohol damage is a real problem-just like a person might object to giving a woman cigarettes or heroin or cocaine if she was pregnant-becuase this is damaging to the child. The woman wasnt being a fascist-she was protecting the interests of the unborn kid-the only question here is-does it harm a child to take alcohol while pregnant? Is there evidence of this? IF the answer to this question is yes-then it is obviously morally difficult for someone to serve a woman drink while pregnant-KNOWING that pitcher or bottle of vodka could be harming her child. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/27/2007 4:32:00 AM | I just don't understand this whole argument.
So far I've heard comments like 'my doctor says it's ok to have a couple drinks', 'I heard that we can have some drinks during the first/second/third trimester', 'A glass of wine won't hurt the baby'... it sounds to me like your all trying to justify drinking alcohol while pregnant. Why not just STOP drinking for 9 months? Is it that hard to have a virgin mary or a Pepsi instead?
When I was trying to get pregnant, I didn't drink a drop. I know that drinking alcohol COULD be harmful to your baby... whether it's one drink every once in awhile or a couple drinks a day, I wasn't going to chance it no matter how small the risk may be.
If your pregnant, for those 9 months your going to do whatever you can to grow a healthy little baby inside of you. That means quit smoking, drinking alcohol, get off the drugs and anything that could possibly harm your baby. There was one point in my pregnanay that I got quit sick. The doctor prescribed a mild medication and assured me it would have no affects on the fetus... well, it took me days to finally take a pill because even despite what the doctor said I was so afraid of bringing any kind of harm to my unborn baby.
Just stop drinking for 9 months... easy as that. If your pregnant and can't go without having a drink, then you have more problems to worry about than your child ending up with FASD. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/27/2007 4:37:29 AM | This woman clearly doesn't love her unborn child, her gift from God
It's amaizing how god groupies know someone so very well, who has only been described once in a few words. Come on, let's here more about this floosie, who probably got pregenant by Satanic midgets during a black mass orgie.
Hey, how about going back to your book of lies, and re-reading that line about "Tho shall not judge.?"
"Clearly doesn't love her unborn child" Jesus, please save us from your followers!!
I laughed hard at your response because I love that sort of humor that says what any reasonable person needs in order to think before they respond next time..there could be a "devils advocate" among us LOL. But, I still believe in Jesus. The way some people conduct themselves and judge sure does give him a bad rap with some..apologize on their behalf and I hope someone straightens out my thinking when it's needed. Happy Reminders welcome!
Personally, I had an occasional glass of wine which my doctor approved while pregnant AND the bible states that Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding feast which I realize the issue here isn't the drinking of wine. But, it does support that wine is not an evil thing. I'd be careful of vodka(which melts Styrofoam cups) and other hard liquors. I'd be concerned about pregnant people who smoke cigarettes and do drugs while pregnant(even over counter meds without a doctors approval) and of course any one who drinks in excess exposes the unborn child to "fetal alcohol syndrome" that involves the born child having birth defects, deficiency in growth, and the chance of development disabilities.
I would think that any club or restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages would know the law on such matters and that the owner or manager should have been consulted before the waitress took any independent action against a patron. I would be fired at my job too if I took matters into my own hands that were against what the owner would have me do. And if someone's conscience does not allow them to go against their way of thinking too much than it is not the line of work that person should be in. | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/27/2007 4:52:01 AM | | The doctors don't know how much alcohol is safe, so the recommendation is to abstain from alcohol during pregnancy. I had no problem doing that. Better safe than sorry. Just because someone else was able to enjoy a drink or two with no noticeable effects on the baby doesn't mean that you'll be lucky too. Why take chances? | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/27/2007 5:21:13 AM | | addendum to my above opinion should include that I no longer drink alcohol because of the sugar and how it affects our insulin levels... and it accelerates metabolic aging because of the destruction of our cells. Times change and new information is being found as we progress...conscience however, is everything! | |
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| pregnant and drinking
Posted: 4/27/2007 7:25:03 AM |
And acting on moral beliefs has led to some of the greatest moments in history-for example Gandhi or Mother Theresa etc people who acted on moral beliefs and strong convictions with incredible selflessness and heroism to extraordinary effect.
This woman is very noble-because she wanted to protect the unborn child from the potentially damaging effects of alcohol-she was aware that she would not just be serving the pregnant lady-she would also be serving alcohol indirectly to the child growing inside her.
It is not imposing her morality-professionals are allowed to opt out of providing services on moral grounds all the time-
First of all, there is no comparison between Gandhi and Mother Theresa, and a waitress. This woman was NOT "noble" for not serving a pregnant woman a drink. That's seriously 
Secondly, doctors are not waitresses. If she's not imposing her morality, then how can she make a decision based on her moral grounds? When the waitress becomes an OBGYN, she can then tell pregnant women if they should drink or not. Period.
So far I've heard comments like 'my doctor says it's ok to have a couple drinks', 'I heard that we can have some drinks during the first/second/third trimester', 'A glass of wine won't hurt the baby'... it sounds to me like your all trying to justify drinking alcohol while pregnant. Why not just STOP drinking for 9 months? Is it that hard to have a virgin mary or a Pepsi instead?
I'm arguing that one glass of wine is acceptable - ESPECIALLY if the OBGYN that is taking care of you during your pregnancy says so. I'll trust my doctor over Googlers any day. That being said, I never touched one drop of alcohol during my pregnancy. I did smoke. - 3-6 cigs a day. I also took a medication that was a Class C. Why? Because taking me off the Class C med would do more harm than good. Quitting cold turkey would cause more stress to my babies than to just smoke those 3-6 a day. And because my team of doctors (6 OBGYN's, a Nurse Practitioner, and then later on 2 Perinatalologists) said so.
And Pepsi has caffeine which can also cause ill effect on the baby as it crosses the placenta. So where do we draw the line? What if my waitress had a baby that was born with something wrong due to drinking to much caffeine and refused to serve me that Pepsi?
The bottom line is, it's not a waitresses place to dictate what a pregnant woman does and doesn't do with her body. And I don't think anyone is arguing that if the woman ordered a pitcher of beer and one glass for herself that, that would be acceptable. | |
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