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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/6/2007 6:25:39 PM | Loony, Usually we're on the same page but I have to disagree here.
can be denied at the owner or their representatives discretion. Yes this can be done but be prepared for legal repercussions. If you are private members club that is fine but if you are an open establishment without a registered clientele you can indeed be sued for discrimination under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Currently in the courts is a female suing a gay club in Montreal b/c she was refused service. If the club in question here supported the waitress in her endevour to to deny the pregnant woman, they could easily be sued for discrimination and pay damages.
If the waitress chooses not to serve the lady it better be on her own ground and she better be willing to lose her job over it........otherwise $$$. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/7/2007 4:24:07 AM | That doesn't apply to bars East Coast. Unless they deny on prohibited grounds ie race, sex, religion, sexual orientation etc. Hurt feelings or a belief somethng is "unfair" does not legally constitute discrimination. I have read the news story about the club you refer to and a Denny's that was sued for refusing to serve black people. Those are prohibited grounds for discrimination (although the Denny's was in the US) so a case can be made in ourt legal system.
The claim that pregnancy is sexual discrimination will not hold up in court unless it can be proven that all members of that sex are pregnant. Women are allowed in just not ones responsible for the wellbeing of a fetus | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/7/2007 5:55:29 AM | ^^^Again not necessarily true. If a woman can prove her medical care includes limited alcoholic beverage, she is not required to show a bartender a doctors note, as she is acting within her expert counsel, and the bartender/waitress is not. They can refuse when said party appears intoxicated, and can refuse just if they so wish. However refusing for no other reason than that the bartender thinks s/he knows better, s/he had better be prepared for repercussion of this decision.
It is not cut and dry. I had a difficult pregnancy, and a panel of no less than FOUR ob/gyns and two GP's who came to consensus that 1/2 beer or 1 oz port every second day with my largest meal, was my safest course of action short of terminating the pregnancy. That is a very specific case - and there are others on this thread. I cannot take ANY synthetic medications, including the medicine for anemia I had with pregnancy, or even vitamin supplements. FOR ME who has the genetic tolerance for this (my child is perfectly healthy) a limited amount of alcohol, a VERY limited amount, was what was best.
Had I ordered a 6 oz glass of beer in an establishment with my meal and was refused, I could have sued. Not that I would do anything like that - that is just not my character, but I could prove beyond any doubt that I was acting in the best interest of my pregnancy. My body was treating the pregnancy as a parasite. Now on the other hand I would not have any grounds were it a tequila shot I ordered, or even a full beer. Probably doesn't apply to me at all though, seeing as I do not go to 'bars,' unless it is a good food establishment. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/7/2007 6:01:10 AM | Bars have a right to refuse service to anyone.
Let the pregnant woman take the bar to court if she's feels discriminated against. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/7/2007 8:20:58 AM |
The claim that pregnancy is sexual discrimination will not hold up in court It holds up in court all the time mein freund..........sexual discrimination is not simply based on gender. It is being discriminated against due to a sexual nature of the victim. It doesn't even have to affect another single person. (i.e. breast feeding in public).
As I said, if the waitress in this case took her action with the knowledge she'd be tossed out on her ass for it, fine, that is her right. I will never support one citizen's individual morals (not law) dictate how to run another citizen's life whether I agree with the moral stance or not. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/8/2007 6:12:59 AM | I did not read every single post in here, so I am not sure all that has been discussed...but going back to the some of the OP's earlier posts, you are so misinformed! Drinking once in a while during your pregnancy is perfectly acceptable and even healthy, obviously...because as some of these women have said, they have gotten doctors orders to drink a bit. I do agree that it needs to be something thats not hard liquor...a beer, a glass of wine, a wine cooler....all fine...lol And the statement about being ok to drink while breastfeeding?!?! No,no, no...lol....if you do however go out and have drinks, and you are breastfeeding. You have to pump enough to last your child 24 hrs....because you cant breastfeed for 24 hours after drinking. I believe it only has to be one drink, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure.  | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/8/2007 11:32:54 AM | Yes feffinreffer, and EVERY doc is an omnipotent god...... Even those that prescibed thalidomide (google that for a wake up call, or docs that prescibed smoking as healthy) for morning sickness..... Too much trust without actual knowledge and no research is worse than no knowledge at all.
Such as ohhh a shot of hard liquor is not any different from a beer or glass of wine for its affect on either the mom or the infant.
Hmmm I wonder what Josef Mengele had to say in the subject... that butcher was a doc too wasn't he? | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/8/2007 1:55:03 PM | Loony: Hmmm, 6 Doctors together must obviously be wrong too then huh? Not just ONE medical expert, but SIX. Not "old school" Doctors, but prominent physicians. What could THEY possibly know telling me to have 1/2 of a beer with my largest meal every second day?
This article was referenced earlier (but I know how some people skip over any relevant information): http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FetalAlcoholSyndrome.html
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
What is fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS)? Can a single drink cause FAS? Can pregnant women safely drink in moderation? Who is at greatest risk of giving birth to a child with fetal alcohol syndrome? How we can reduce FAS? What is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome?
Fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) is a serious health problem that tragically affects its victims and their families, but that is completely preventable. Causing a child to suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome is really nothing short of child abuse and it lasts for life. Babies born with FAS tend to weigh less and be shorter than normal. They usually suffer from:
* smaller heads * deformed facial features * abnormal joints and limbs * poor coordination * problems with learning * short memories 1
Victims of fetal alcohol syndrome often experience mental health problems, disrupted school experience, inappropriate sexual behavior, trouble with the law, alcohol and drug problems, difficulty caring for themselves and their children, and homelessness. 2 Should Pregnant Women Drink At All?
Is there a safe or acceptable level of alcohol consumption for pregnant women?
The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recently conducted a large study including 400,000 American women, all of whom had consumed alcohol during pregnancy. Not a single case of fetal alcohol syndrome occurred and no adverse effects on children were found when consumption was under 8.5 drinks per week. 3
A recent review of research studies found that fetal alcohol syndrome only occurs among alcoholics. The evidence is clear that there is no apparent risk to a child when the pregnant woman consumes no more than one drink per day. 4
"One drink can hurt your foetus," a mass media campaign in the province of Quebec, was dropped after a number of women who had consumed a single drink while pregnant, often before realizing they were expectant, began demanding abortions.
* Source: Dr. Hubert Sacy, presentation at the Gode Alkoholdninger meetings, Kobenhavn, Denmark, April, 2001.
A study of moderate drinking during pregnancy found no negative effects. The researchers suggested that one drink per day provides a significant margin of safety, although they did not encourage drinking during pregnancy. 5
A study of pregnancies in eight European countries found that consuming no more than one drink per day did not appear to have any effect on fetal growth. A follow-up of children at 18 months of age found that those from women who drank during pregnancy, even two drinks per day, scored higher in several areas of development. 6
A recent analysis of seven major medical research studies involving over 130,000 pregnancies suggests that consuming two to 14 drinks per week does not increase the risk of giving birth to a child with either malformations or fetal alcohol syndrome. 7
Negative effects appear to be related to relatively higher levels of consumption per occasion, and hence, to higher blood alcohol content levels. Thus, it appears to be very important never to consume more than one drink in any one day while pregnant. 8
The guidelines of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommend that "women should be careful about alcohol consumption in pregnancy and limit this to no more than one standard drink per day." 9 These conclusions appear consistent with the research findings of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, a major science body in the U.S. 10
The American College of Obstreticians and Gynecologists concludes that "there is no evidence that an occasional drink is harmful. Women who drink heavily throughout pregnancy may have smaller babies with physical and mental handicaps, but women who drink moderately may have babies with no more problems than those women who drink rarely or not at all." 11
This group of medical specialists points out that "It's hard to determine the amount and timing of alcohol consumption that puts the fetus at risk. One study shows that women who drank only occasionally and moderately (described in this particular study as between 1 and 45 drinks spaced out over a month) had babies with no more problems than those women who drank rarely or not at all. There were no differences either in size or number of babies' handicaps bewtween the women who drank moderately and those who abstained or drank likely." 12
The Harvard Women's Health Watch advises pregnant women that "having more than one alcoholic drink per day puts the fetus at risk for various defects and disabilities." 13 Thus, it suggests that expectant women should limit themselves to one drink per day. The health publication emphasizes that one drink is 12 ounces of beer, five ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces of spirits or liquor.
But, of course, alcohol consumption might have very subtle or undetectable undesirable effects on children. Therefore, until more is known for certain, pregnant women might well be advised to choose the safest option, that of abstaining during pregnancy. The Problem
There is no scientific support for the type of widespread hysteria that permeates public discussion on fetal alcohol syndrome. 14 Many people falsely believe that even a single drink during pregnancy can cause FAS. If this were true, the majority of the populations of dozens of countries around the world would suffer the effects of FAS!
Some pregnant women have actually become frantic upon realizing they had inadvertently eaten salad that had wine vinegar dressing, fearing their children would be born suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome. 15 Of course, wine vinegar, being vinegar, contains no alcohol.
In reality there is absolutely no evidence that light drinking, even on a daily basis, leads to fetal alcohol syndrome. Actually, most women who are light or moderate drinkers choose not to drink during pregnancy. The real problem is found among frequent heavy drinkers, who most often are alcoholics consuming heavily on a daily basis throughout their pregnancies. 16
Additionally, those who give birth to FAS children characteristically smoke, use illegal drugs, are frequently malnourished, and rarely receive adequate medical care during pregnancy. And drinking during pregnancy has not declined among such women over time. Because of their addiction, these women are virtually immune to our current educational approach. This may also be because so many of these women are poorly educated and often lead marginal lives. 17
This is the target group to which our efforts and resources need to be directed in a massive drive to get these women the necessary help and treatment. It will not be cheap or easy, but it is essential if we seriously want to reduce the incidence of fetal alcohol syndrome.
We need to abandon scare tactics for real solutions
This site does not provide medical advice Consult a physician for information on alcohol and other health issues
Another thing not noted here, but that I have read in science journals, is that people who have family history with FAS, or have mild forms of it themselves are also more likely to have FAS issues with their own children. Also cultures who have had limited exposure to alcohol over the millennium also have more risk, as alcohol is not a part of their genetic past, so it takes less to cause damage.
There are hundreds of factors. All should be discussed with more than one medical professional. Knowledge is easy to find, but many lack the will to put much energy into looking for it.
The barmaid/waitress still had no right to complain if she used her moral ground to refuse a patron, and was or nearly was fired.
The reason for beer or wine over hard liquor is that it has other documented good benefits to the body, unlike hard liquor. Digestifs are also often prescribed. Vitamins in forms the body can more easily absorb (unlike vitamin supplements,) Antioxidants and other noted positive nutritional value is attributed to beer/wine/mead/digestifs etc., and not just the alcohol itself is prescribed.
I do not think that getting hammered while pregnant is a good idea, but until I read conclusive evidence that FAS occurs from ONE drink when there are NO OTHER genetic contributions to the syndrome, I will not agree to any legislation against serving pregnant women. Many groups HAVE tried to prove conclusively that ONE drink does unequivocal harm, and have not found anything to support that claim. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 7:17:11 AM | Morally I do not agree with it. Thankfully I don't, my kids have enough issues without me adding more if I had drank during pregnancy. I likely would have made the same choice as the waitress, refusing to serve her, and offering perhaps another waiter/waitress do so out of my own morals. I do know that when I was looking for help for my son who has special needs, the first question every dr and therapist asked was if I drank during pregnancy, one even went as far as to accuse me of lieing because they thought he has FAS, funny since I have never drank during pregnancy and only drink 2-3 glasses of wine a YEAR when not pregnant. Perhaps it is a difference in culture I don't know, but out here in Alberta is it seen to be very unhealthy to even have one drink while pg. Right now the ads etc don't speak as much about FAS as about Fetal Alcohol Effects which is a much much milder form of the syndrome. It is still pushed as you never know how 1 drink will affect your baby, so don't drink any.
The funny thing is when it comes to breastfeeding, many hear have said you have to wait 24 hours before nursing again, and the dr's here say wait 3 hours per drink, then it is out of your system enough to safely nurse your baby. SO if you have 1 glass of wine at dinner you can nurse your baby 3 hours later. I just find it interesting that it is the opposite of what is being told in the states. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 8:14:04 AM |
The funny thing is when it comes to breastfeeding, many hear have said you have to wait 24 hours before nursing again, and the dr's here say wait 3 hours per drink, then it is out of your system enough to safely nurse your baby. SO if you have 1 glass of wine at dinner you can nurse your baby 3 hours later. I just find it interesting that it is the opposite of what is being told in the states.
It's not different info here, but rather most people prefer to wait 24 hours just in case. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 8:53:20 AM | That's great, Limestone Lady, if your focus is the prevention of FAS only. However, this came from your very own posting/citation/source:
<div class="quote"> But, of course, alcohol consumption might have very subtle or undetectable undesirable effects on children. Therefore, until more is known for certain, pregnant women might well be advised to choose the safest option, that of abstaining during pregnancy.
When I went back and looked directly at the link you posted, the line "pregnant women might well be advised to choose the safest option, that of abstaining during pregnancy" was even in BOLD lettering!
So just exactly who were you refering to when you said:
<div class="quote"> (but I know how some people skip over any relevant information):
???
So great, you advocate that the child be protected from the sledgehammer of FAS, but the ballpeen hammer of other "undesirable effects" is perfectly acceptable? Fantastic.
The fact is no one knows for sure what the affect of any quantity of alcohol on a fetus is going to be. Your cited link/source is consistent with that message, as I've just pointed out. So does a pregnant mother really NEED that ONE (1) drink a day, or shouldn't they err on the side of caution and abstain for their child's sake?
All of the benefits from beer, wine, etc. that are documented (antioxidents, vitamins, etc.) can very well be found in other forms elsewhere. Heck, they even have non-alcoholic beer and wine if you really must have it in that form. Its not the alcohol itself that's providing the benefits (alcohol's a toxin), its all the other stuff that comes in the beer or wine.
So next time you expectant mothers step up to the bar for your "one drink a day" simply order a non-alcoholic beer or wine and there should be no conflict. Everyone will be happy, right? | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 1:51:50 PM |
maelstrom2000: So does a pregnant mother really NEED that ONE (1) drink a day, or shouldn't they err on the side of caution and abstain for their child's sake?
Do people really NEED to get out of the house once in a while - shouldn't they play it safe and spend the rest of their lives indoors where its safest? Lets all err on the side of caution people!
Its pretty easy for us guys to tell a woman not to drink for 9 months. I'm not a big drinker but still, 9 months without one would be pretty tough. If one spends all their time err'ing on the side of caution life isn't much fun. 400 000 women studied drank during their pregnancy and not one had FAS - how do you tell a woman "well maybe your one drink is the fluke that harms the baby." Lets be a little more reasonable. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 3:18:39 PM | Did you actually read my post, Rockodon? I can't imagine that you did. Either that, or you didn't understand it fully. If you go back and actually read it again you'll see that I cited the very same source given by another poster for their justification of drinking while pregnant (granted specifying one drink only). That exact same source said:
But, of course, alcohol consumption might have very subtle or undetectable undesirable effects on children. Therefore, until more is known for certain, pregnant women might well be advised to choose the safest option, that of abstaining during pregnancy.
Not only did that exact same source say this, but they said it in BOLD letters when you read it from the original source link:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FetalAlcoholSyndrome.html
So not only is it me who's saying drinking (even one drink) while pregnant may put the unborn child at risk (granted, not necessarily for FAS, but for other "undesirable effects"), but the same source you are using to justify drinking while pregnant is saying it, for goodness sake! So exactly how could my position be "a little more reasonable" again? More reasonable compared to what, your position that its okay to conciously put an unborn child at risk???
But if we want to get into stupid analogies to support our positions (ie: "leaving the house"), how about "its more likely that you'll get struck by a car if you play in the street than if you stay on the sidewalk?"
As for the statement:
If one spends all their time err'ing on the side of caution life isn't much fun.
The problem I have with this statement is the "fun" one is advocating here will ultimately be paid for by the unborn child if something does go wrong. How is that fair again? Hmmmm, reminds me of our (U.S.) national debt situation actually (passing the buck on to future generations so we can have our fun today). Of course, that's another stupid analogy there and I really should stick to one per posting.
One of the oddest (and most nauseating) things about this thread is that I just came from a forum that asks, "how far would you go to protect your child?"
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts7254825.aspx
Almost unanimously (if not actually unanimously) every poster said they'd do ANYTHING....lie, kill, take a bullet, go to jail, etc. to protect their child. Apparently there are some though that wouldn't give up a single drink a day for 9 months. All I have to say to that is "wow." | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 3:23:14 PM | Drink while pregnant?
How is there even a debate? Why take the chance that MAYBE it is ok. That's all the reason you need. If you are with a man who drinks when you are pregnant, he should quit too just to show support and get it out of the house.
9 months is a long time? how about a lifetime if your child is born with any birth defect. There will always be this little voice in your head asking was it because you drank.....
Nothing religious here, just common sense. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 4:13:48 PM | maelstrom2000
I am not condoning drinking while pregnant UNLESS advised to do so (as I was) by more than one doctor.
I am against the needless legislation people are suggesting. I am always against needless "uncommon sense" legislation. I advocate education to the masses rather than forcing laws (and taxpayers money) on things which should be pretty obvious not to do.
If you read back in my posts, I had stopped all alcohol consumption the moment I suspected I was pregnant. I do not drink to excess (and have not since I was 19) but I regularly have a wine with dinner. My digestion went haywire. I did not just randomly choose to drink, I was told to have 6oz of dark beer every second day with my largest meal, by 6 medical professionals looking after my pregnancy. I see you are very adamant that anyone who has a drink during this 9 months is a less than desirable person. Its no skin off of my nose - I did what was correct for ME and MY pregnancy.
This is where getting informed comes into play. Of course the mass hysteria media says: "NEVER EVER HAVE A SINGLE DRINK YOU ARE RUINING LIVES!!!" but I prefer to take knowledge from as many expert sources as possible, and for me that was my medical team with my complicated (should have been impossible) pregnancy.
That article was merely to point out that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence that ONE drink causes FAS or FAE. It can for some who have other factors that make FAS/FAE a greater likelihood.
I still think that if you make a decision based on your own personal moral grounds (like the waitress did) that you have to face the consequences. It is just as much the "ME entitlement" for the waitress on her high moral grounds, as it was for the woman who ordered the drink. We know nothing else about that woman except that she ordered a single drink, yet many have made assumptions such as "obviously does not love her unborn child" and etc. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/9/2007 5:52:40 PM | Limestone Lady: You dance around the fact that the source you cited clearly urged abstinance as a precaution as well, due to the fact that nobody knows whether or not a single drink of alcohol a day will adversely affect an unborn baby. Your focus is on FAS/FAE, but the source that you cited indicated that FAS is not the only "undesirable effect" of alcohol consumption upon an unborn child. I used YOUR very own source, not mine, as I have plenty of sources of my own that say you should never drink alcohol while pregnant. YOUR source was sufficient enough to prove that point. Are you seriously saying that as long as there is no FAS/FAE risk then other "undesirable effects" are acceptable?
So if you're not going to agree with your own source, then perhaps when you say:
I prefer to take knowledge from as many expert sources as possible
...you actually meant to say you SELECTIVELY take knowledge from as many expert sources as possible, correct? No shame in that, we all do that from time to time.
As for your "expert doctor" opinions? I have a response to that. Many current doctors are arguably taught wrong and/or ill-informed about alcohol consumption and the effect upon unborn children. Do I have a credible source to support this claim. Why, yes I do actually:
Medical School Textbooks Still Say It's OK to Drink While Pregnant
Only 1-in-4 new books calls for abstinence By Kathleen Doheny HealthScoutNews Reporter
WEDNESDAY, July 17 (HealthScoutNews) -- Talk about being behind the times: Textbooks used in the nation's medical schools still condone drinking during pregnancy, although public health officials have promoted abstinence for two decades.
This month's American Journal of Preventive Medicine carries an article in which Virginia Commonwealth University researchers reviewed 81 obstetrics textbooks currently in use in the nation's medical schools and found that only 14 had consistent recommendations not to drink. When they narrowed the review to textbooks published since 1991, only 7 of the 29, or 24 percent, consistently recommended zero alcohol during pregnancy.
"I didn't expect so many recent textbooks to actually condone drinking," says Dr. Mary Nettleman, professor of medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University and the lead author of the study.
Many of the reviewed textbooks had mixed messages. More than half of the books contained at least one statement condoning drinking by pregnant women. Some skipped the subject alltogether.
Drinking alcohol during pregnancy can result in both physical and mental birth defects. Up to 12,000 babies born each year in the United States have fetal alcohol syndrome, a combination of physical and mental defects, according to the Institute of Medicine. Most of the mothers of these babies are alcoholics or chronic alcohol abusers.
Many women are aware that heavy drinking during their pregnancy can cause birth defects, but some are not aware that moderate or light drinking can harm the fetus, too, according to the March of Dimes.
"Alcohol goes from your system to the baby's blood stream," Nettleman says.
But do medical school professors follow the texts strictly or insert their own anti-drinking messages to students during classroom lectures?
"I can't say for sure," Nettleman says. "We did not study that."
Nettleman is puzzled as to why textbooks haven't inserted revisions. "All the major organizations, such as the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Academy of Pediatrics, public health organizations, all advocate zero drinking during pregnancy," she says.
"I can't prove to you that having one drink during pregnancy is bad," she says, because no one can definitely say that a single drink can damage a fetus. But since no one knows the lower limit of safety for alcohol during pregnancy, zero drinking is the only rational policy, she says.
A Los Angeles clinical geneticist says she is "not totally surprised" by the findings.
"I think there is a hesitation to put something so strong [like banning drinking during pregnancy] in the textbook," says Dr. Karen Filkins, an associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at UCLA School of Medicine who has set up birth defects hotlines and conducts genetics counseling.
Women who have a drink and then discover they're pregnant can get very anxious, she has found over her years of counseling and administering hotlines.
"We experience [on the hotlines] numerous phone calls from women who had a drink early in pregnancy." Most are alarmed and concerned, she says. And she reassures them that most of the time one or two drinks early in pregnancy are not going to have an adverse effect, but that no one can guarantee that outcome in every case, because the limit of safety is unknown.
Ideally, how should the textbooks address drinking during pregnancy?
"I think textbooks should discuss it the way I do," Filkins says. "For those who have had inadvertent exposure, there is no reason to panic. However, there is no known lower level [of safety]. The policy and the stance should be 'no alcohol during pregnancy.' But the textbooks ought to address both the 'no alcohol' policy and the inadvertent alcohol situation."
In the case of inadvertent exposure, the textbooks ought to recommend that doctors advise the woman to call a birth defects hotline or consult with her doctor or a genetics expert so an assessment can be made of her specific risk, Filkins says. What To Do
SOURCES: Mary D. Nettleman, M.D., professor of medicine, Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond; Karen Filkins, M.D., associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology, UCLA School of Medicine, clinical geneticist, Los Angeles; July 2002 American Journal of Preventive Medicine
So please spare me your "I'm so informed and you're so uninformed" attitude, Limestone Lady. You found six doctors who said its okay for you to drink during pregnancy? Great, believe what you want to believe. I certainly can't stop you (or anyone else for that matter). I sincerely hope that the unborn children of mothers who believe as you dodge their respective bullets when the time comes. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/10/2007 5:02:36 AM |
So please spare me your "I'm so informed and you're so uninformed" attitude, Limestone Lady. You found six doctors who said its okay for you to drink during pregnancy? Great, believe what you want to believe. I certainly can't stop you (or anyone else for that matter). I sincerely hope that the unborn children of mothers who believe as you dodge their respective bullets when the time comes.
What I believe is that legislation against such is unnecessary. I did not "find" doctors to support me to drink, these were my doctors who were dealing with my uterine cancer I had at the time when I hit long odds and became pregnant. My diagnosed terminal cancer, as it had spread to my blood, but that team of doctors were planning a hysterectomy for me. That was no ones business except mine to know that little fact about MY pregnancy, but I resent the implication that I went out looking for doctors to support me to drink. I HAD QUIT any alcoholic consumption upon suspicion of pregnancy.
I had also quit all cancer treatments, (years previous) and those drugs all have much more direct results. I am pleased to say that MY pregnancy drove my cancer into remittance. I AM NOT CONDONING DRINKING WHILE PREGNANT. I do not think it IS ok for everyone to do, but I also do not think it is an extreme evil when it is monitored by medical professionals. Nor do I think a woman who drank before knowing she was pg is evil either. That would be something like 70% or so of pregnancies....(not sure the exact number, but it is pretty darned high)
You do realise that food preservatives are toxins as well right? All the sprays on produce. Our Chlorinated water - and cannot bypass that one with bottled water seeing as plastics leech into the bottled water and are unhealthy too, you need to be on a clean untreated well (as I am.) Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a toxin, and nearly ALL pharmaceuticals are toxins as well. Many of these also have documented evidence pertaining to birth defects. I avoided all of those toxins, and others (and have been for about 6 years) in order to combat my cancer that should have had me dead before my 20th birthday. How many people can say the same? The only toxin I had in my life was a digestifs, or a wine with supper, and I gave up that too for pregnancy until I was told otherwise.
SO what part of ME, MY or MINE, makes you think I am condoning it for all women? I stick to what my argument is (and this is for those who wish to have laws passed) that I will not support legislation against alcohol unless it can be conclusively proven that ONE drink causes problems. It cannot, many groups have tried to prove it and have not had any success with it. Even your source says it is an unknown.
Yes, I did read the cautions in the article I posted. I am not "dancing around" "believing selectively" or any such nonsense. What is with the attitude to me? I am not the only person on this thread who was advised limited very small quantities of alcohol by an expert. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/10/2007 10:07:29 AM | Great, Limestone Lady, believe what you want to believe. I think you found ill-informed doctors who gave you bad advice. Hence my submission of my post to support my belief. Do I blame you for taking their advice? Not really, albeit I personally would have done further research on my own and made my own decision. For example, my daughter was suffering from extremely painful eczema on her elbows and wrists and her doctors (albeit two, not six) prescribed Elidel. As it turns out Elidel has the FDA's highest "black warning" for cancer risk and I chose not to take such a risk with the health of my child. Instead, I used a combination of flax seed oil, evening primrose oil, glycerin, and vitamen E (all of which I researched as beneficial)and she hasn't had an episode of eczema since (and in fact she now enjoys taking her flax seed oil and evening primrose oil, which are high in Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids respectively). So if its a case of dueling anectdotes, you have one where you followed your doctors' advice (as questionable as it was, in my humble opinion) and you seemed to come out okay and I have one where I didn't agree with the doctors' advice and everything seemed to come out just fine as well.
If I take what you say about yourself and your circumstances at face value, then at most I'll concede is that you are BY FAR an exception, but not the rule. So should legislation (or lack thereof) be based on your particular set of circumstances, or should it be considered based on what is the norm? I believe the norm is closer to what the OP described here, a woman walking into a bar and ordering something called "a Caeser" (I had to look it up, its a vodka-based mixed drink, certainly not a 6 oz beer or glass of wine), with no indication they were under a doctor's care and/or tending to an illness, expecting to be served while pregnant. Even though almost every (if not every) credible organization/source (including the one you cited) either says don't drink while pregnant (or at least strongly urges it).
You say (if I'm reading you correctly) absolutely that's acceptable (because we didn't "know" what her particular situation is), go ahead and serve her right up. I say, no it is not acceptable. Therefore I do propose and support legislation on this issue (knowing full well you won't support it, of course). I say we make it illegal to drink while pregnant, with the exception of those who have documented, verifiable proof that a (licensed) doctor has prescribed such, including what type/level/amount of alcohol to be consumed. They could carry a card, or pre-printed bracelets as simple verification of their right to consume alcohol during pregnancy and the wait staff would only be required to serve them whatever type/level/amount of alcohol was indicated. To me that certainly sounds like a reasonable compromise. Will people cheat on it, find doctors who will prescribe ridiculous amounts, jump from bar to bar to get multiple hits? Absolutely. But at least you'll have some regulation and/or protection for the rights of the unborn child (as opposed to none currently), as well as the rights/sensibilities of the wait staff (afterall, we're not just talking serving drones/servants here).
As for your chlorinated water /preservative/plastic bottle/pharmaceuticals point? C'mon now, unless I'm giving you more credit than is deserved, surely you know that those are all HEAVILY regulated for their acceptable levels (measured in "parts per million"), correct? Alcohol (other than blood alcohol levels for DUI) is not. If you were to apply the same standards to alcoholic drinks as are applied to acceptable levels of chlorine in the water, preservatives in foods, plastic leakage in bottles, etc (including the standards for what constitutes "harm") you may as well not even order an alcoholic drink, as there wouldn't hardly be any alcohol in it at all. However, if that's the direction you wish to go and it will save the children, then I'm all for it! Sign me up for regulating alcohol the same way we regulate chlorinated water/preservatives/plastic leakage/pharmaceuticals, etc.!  | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/10/2007 5:40:21 PM | Most pharmaceuticals are as strongly recommended or more strongly recommended against during pregnancy than limited alcohol. Even things we take for granted (my Tylenol comment)
I am not saying that pregnant mother was right or wrong, but I am saying that the waitress does have to face repercussions for making a decision based on her moral grounds, rather than legal grounds.
The problem I have with said legislation is that any woman who is unaware that she is pregnant and has a drink could fall through the system and be incarcerated for having an FAS/FAE child. That is how militant most people get with fanatical laws like this. How many women didn't know for the first month or three? Most do not know for at least three weeks. How do you draw up the laws to fairly represent this? You cannot. that will turn innocent people into criminals, and this sits poorly with me (and anyone who values a free society.)
I should have died 5 years ago. I probably would have if I did not cut out all ingestible toxins (except for my small glass of wine.) I took my own approach to fighting disease, as I know that I was healthy as a person could possibly be on whole non processed foods until I moved out on my own for college at 15. I became ill, knew what with by 17, and by 18 I started growing all my own foods, or purchasing only from organic farmers.
Here I am ready and able to argue now. Cancer free since Feb for the only time in my adult life. I am most opposed to pesticide usage on produce, and hormone injected meats. I try to lobby the populace to know that pesticide use is harming us greatly, and I urge people to eat those spotted apples....Do you know how bad even in parts per million some of these things are?
So back to topic, I was not arguing that the mother was right or wrong, but that the waitress deserved any consequences she faced for acting on morals only. (whether or not I agree is another matter)
So what advice would you have had my doctors give me? I became unable to process food in my normal manner after cutting out alcohol altogether. Taking a chemical substitute (read pharmaceutical) was not an option, yet I needed to be able to eat, manage my anemia and provide proper nutrition to myself and my baby, or I would have lost the pregnancy (and the depression afterwards might have been enough to push me over the edge to letting the cancer win.)
BTW. I was not the one who referenced that article. I read it after an earlier poster referenced the site. It was to show that there is no evidence that only ONE drink causes all the evil so many are speaking that it does. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/10/2007 5:48:50 PM | I could not support any form of prohibition. it may be unacceptable in our culture for pregnant women to drink, while in other countries they advise nursing mothers to not drink three hrs before. I don't know any ladies that have consumed alcohol after they knew they were pregnant. I can't imagine this proposal ever making it to the ballot, who knows, maybe america wants the gov't to be their baby sitter. pregnancy and nursing may sound like apples and oranges; however I don't want the government to have that much control of what goes on in our personal lives and in our homes (legi$lation, liabilitie$, court$, more law$, when is it enough?) . (almost sounds like the nosey neighbor who needs to keep his big nose out of other peoples business--pinnochio) also to me legislation would be similar to the prolife/prochoice issue. I don't think it's right to tell a woman what decisions she can make. When men can carry babies then maybe they should be allowed to make decisions pertaining to pregnancies. until that day, our opinions are only worth two cents (due to inflation)...
that opinionated guy that talks a lot, who sounds like he's trying to force his opinions on women. he made a good point... if it ever became a law, and a doctor did prescribe a drink to a pregnant or nursing mother, legislation wont prevent mothers from bar hopping or drinking in their own private home. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/10/2007 8:09:23 PM | What confuses me after all these pages, is how so many people can rationalize drinking while pregnant, but to drink while breastfeeding (an allowing the baby to feed without having discarded for 24 hours) is SOOOOOOOOO wrong.
IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!
Either way, the baby is getting the alcohol through either the placenta or the breast. The baby's liver is immature, meaning that it won't metabolize alcohol at the same rate as an adults. Even at 3 months, it can only metabolize it at 1/2 the rate of an adult. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/11/2007 6:58:00 AM |
I am not saying that pregnant mother was right or wrong, but I am saying that the waitress does have to face repercussions for making a decision based on her moral grounds, rather than legal grounds.
I'm saying you are wrong here on this one. The waitress should not have to be put into a position where she is forced to choose between her job and handing a pregnant woman the drink that may be the one to cause irrevocal harm to an unborn child. Thus one of the reasons why I do support legislation. The rights of the unborn child and the waitress should be protected just as much (if not more than) the rights of the mother-to-be to go to a bar and order a drink. If this is considered "overly moral" of me then so be it.
The problem I have with said legislation is that any woman who is unaware that she is pregnant and has a drink could fall through the system and be incarcerated for having an FAS/FAE child. That is how militant most people get with fanatical laws like this. How many women didn't know for the first month or three? Most do not know for at least three weeks. How do you draw up the laws to fairly represent this? You cannot. that will turn innocent people into criminals, and this sits poorly with me (and anyone who values a free society.)
I disagree with you here as well. Why can't you simply take the legislation that I propose and write it in to exlude the first trimester? That should protect those who are "unaware" that they are pregnant when they drink. By the end of the first trimester (with very few/rare exceptions) one should know that they are pregnant, correct? If you don't like that timing, it can be "noodled" with to suit your needs (albeit I think its too long), assuming we're not talking something ridiculous here (like by the end of the third trimester). Would this suit me perfectly? No, but its alot better than the nothing protection we have for unborn children (and wait staff) that we have now, correct?
So what advice would you have had my doctors give me?
I'll answer that. First of all, I called my friend in Washington DC yesterday who just so happens to be a doctor (pediatrician at first and now a GP) to discuss this topic. According to him, unless the person's digestive system was not functioning properly due to dependency on alcohol (and sudden absence of), he's never heard of anyone prescribing alcohol as a digestive. Alcohol in and of itself is not a digestive. In fact, alcohol is highly destructive to the overall gastrointestinal system. Just so we're not just taking my friend's word for it, I quickly looked up a couple of online references as well:
http://www.jrussellshealth.com/alcdig.html http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/alcohol/Vanessa/vwgitract.htm
There were more, but none so straight to the point as the one's I just gave. When I Googled and Yahoo'd "benefits alcohol digestion digestive" the closest I found to any benefits was to the colon, specifically in relation to the possible retardation of polyp development (hardly what you described as your issue):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060522235250.htm
Not knowing exactly what your specific issue was, its hard for me to give specific alternative recommendations. If your need for alcohol as a digestive was due to chemical dependency, then I'll concede that you were an exception to the rule (albeit it still may have put your unborn child at risk). If not (and it wasn't the alcohol you needed, but the other stuff that comes in beer and wine), my recommendation would have been to consume non-alcoholic beer or wine. If either of those weren't sufficiently "dark" enough for you, you could have homebrewed your own variety (without putting it through its fermentation process). I've homebrewed, so I know that its cheap ($50 - $80 for all the equipment and $20 or less for the ingredients to make 5 gallons) and easy (just get a large pot and boil away). It'd be a bit on the sweet side, but you'd get all the other benefits of the mix without the alcohol. That's just off the top of my head...and assuming there truly were no pharmaceutical options available to you.
I'm not going to comment on your life/cancer story. I've already conceded that if I take it at face value it makes you at best an extreme exception to the rule. As you even said yourself, "back to the topic."
Do you know how bad even in parts per million some of these things are?
If you truly believe this then certainly you should NEVER...EVER consume alcohol, as its not even regulated even near as closely as these other things are. If you're avoiding pesticides due to their hazards I would be shocked that you ever touched another drop of alcohol again (or advocate that anyone do so)!
BTW. I was not the one who referenced that article. I read it after an earlier poster referenced the site. It was to show that there is no evidence that only ONE drink causes all the evil so many are speaking that it does.
The second you posted this article in your message, you took ownership for it, my dear. If you're going to use it to make a point (that there's no evidence that only ONE drink causes harm) then you should accept ALL of its message, which includes (in BOLD lettering) abstinance during pregnancy. I'll concede to you certain extreme exceptions, but as a rule it should be abstinance during pregnancy. | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 7/11/2007 10:58:12 AM | Bikemon: I beg to differ with you. I don't care in the least if any adult (man or woman) does something that is going to have consequences ONLY to themselves. Drink it up all you want in that case (just don't get behind the wheel of an automobile because now you're putting others at risk). I am an "opinionated guy" when it comes to protecting people from being harmed by the concious actions of others. In this case we're talking about protecting an unborn child from being put at risk by a mother-to-be who is conciously choosing to do something every credible source says is potentially, irrevocably, harmful. If the government and/or the "nosey neighbors" aren't going to protect these helpless children, who is??? The mother-to-be who's choosing to drink while pregnant ??? You??? I think not!
If enough people would naturally do the right thing (in this case abstain from drinking during pregnancy) there would be no need for legislation, but judging from the disturbing level of support I've seen here to allow mothers-to-be the unfettered ability to drink while pregnant (in the name of preserving their personal/"womanly" rights and let the child's rights be damned), I don't believe that's ever going to be the case. I would have thought it would be common sense, but apparently (SHOCKINGLY) its not. Therefore I have to "talk alot," to give at least some the opportunity to come to their senses, even if I'm "simply shouting into the wind." That's one of the reasons these forums exist. I don't recall this forum being designated as a "woman only" forum, do you?
As for the other primary issue here, that of the waitperson refusing to serve a pregnant woman? I find it shocking as well that there is such support for the drinking mother-to-be and so little support for the waitperson who is being told to choose between their job and serving what could amount to poison to an unborn child. The legislation I proposed would protect that waitperson's rights as well, the right not to be a participant in harming an unborn child.
So after reading what you believe in your posting and that of others in this forum all I have left to say is "wow." | |
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| pregnant and drinking Posted: 11/8/2007 4:44:45 PM | | There is absoloutely no reason whatsoever for a woman to go to a smokey bar and drink alcohol when she is pregnant with a child! It is only 9 months, she can go out and drink after the child is born providing she's not breastfeeding. Having a baby is about making sacrafices and she'll have to make alot more as time goes on, if she's falling at the 1st hurdle then i feel for that baby and his/her welfare, she is too selfish to have kids! Women shouldn't drink when pregnant, they should think of their baby's health!!! | |
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