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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 6/26/2008 6:15:40 PM | FYI, before Columbus, roughly 300 languages were spoken here, now almost half of
them are extinct, James Crawford (Language Policy and Web Site Emporium), projects that in another 50 years only 20 indigenous North American languages will be alive and spoken.
The United States has never had an official national language. Many citizens feel English should be established as our official language, while many feel that linguistic diversity is a key aspect of our heritage and that English only laws are motivated by
fear and by false stereotypes about non-native speakers.
The English-only movement began in 1982 when a Republican Senator from California
sponsored a constitutional amendment to the Constitution to make English our official language.
Canadian-born S.I. Hawakawa in 1983 helped found the U.S. ENGLISH, a non-partisan organization that lobbies for English-only legislation, and supports related initiatives to encourage English literacy for immigrants.
Draw your own conclusions from this information. I think learning to speak another language is an advantageous to everyone. In fact, our schools should be encouraging and teaching many languages to our children.
Most Americans do not speak proper English as it is and I cringe when I hear poor grammar coming out of the mouths of people who were born and educated here.
And these same people are the first to want English as a first language....well, learn
to speak it properly yourself first, then you can have your say...if you can spell it
and say it in an appropriate way.  | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 6/26/2008 6:19:39 PM | | I speak more than one language and agree with you that Americans should have the desire to learn more than one language. But our Government,Schools and Businesses should not have to cater to a group that has no desire to learn English.If they want to function and to be a part of American culture the onus is on them. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/28/2009 11:34:42 PM | I guess they should require more than basic English! If you want to move to a country you should assimilate the culture and language of it!
I'm from Brazil moved here less than 2 years ago, and I get really annoyed with other Brazilian people who doesn't speak English and are here for way longer I am, specially if they are talking in Portuguese and someone in the group doesn't speak it, it's rude. I pretty much avoid talking to Brazilians so I don't talk in Portuguese. I came to America to learn English and learn about American culture, not to be a Brazilian in America.
I know my English is not perfect, and that I make a lot of mistakes, but oh well at least I'm always trying to improve it. I'm also trying to learn more about American culture and history.  | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/29/2009 7:46:32 AM |
Should there be a minimum English language proficiency required for citizenship? Absolutely. I think it should be required in order for people to immigrate with a green card. A green card indicates they intend to stay here ... so they should learn the language.
The reason I say that ... I lived and worked in Columbus, Ohio for years where there is a huge Somalian population. They are horrible drivers, and for a long time I wondered how it was they were able to get a license with such atrocious abilities out on the road. I looked into it and actually asked a few what kind of test they took in order to drive.
They told me they took a written test and a driving test. So (knowing they could barely speak English) I asked how it was they were able to pass the written test with such a lack of English skills. (I was talking through an interpreter.) They told me the test is in their native language.
WHAT????? OMG ... where is the sense in that?
The road signs are all in English ... right? But the test is in their native language. Basically what is going on is that they can't even read the freaking road signs ... because they have so little knowledge of English, but we are issuing them licenses to drive on our roads!!!!
People need to learn the language of the country they are immigrating to. That's just common sense. It should be required. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/29/2009 8:02:17 AM | This is such a common sense issue that I cannot understand why there are 12 pages of debate on it.
While English may not be the legally declared language of the land it is the language spoken here. It is the language of the majority of Americans and as such it would make sense that the people that decide to immigrate here should learn to speak the language.
The impact of this multilingual society we are allowing to develop is staggering in the cultural divide it is creating. Language is one of the strongest unifying bonds that a nation has. To dilute that bond is to rip the very fabric of that nation.
By allowing for this multilingual society we are creating a world that is creating reverse discrimination. Look at the help wanted ads these days and you will see many that require the ability to speak Spanish or some other language other than English. And these are jobs that have no viable reason for this requirement. These are not import/export jobs that require regular dealings with businesses outside of our country. These are businesses that have chosen to make their profits on the backs of illegal aliens or they recently immigrated that they can pay a lower wage. By allowing these language requirements we are discriminating against the born citizens of this country in favor of the immigrated citizens who have created this problem.
There are very few jobs in America that should have a requirement to speak any language other than English. I find these Spanish speaking requirements to be divisive, discriminatory and a slap in the face of every tax paying American citizen. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:16:47 PM | There is no such thing as 'reverse discrimination'. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter to whom it is done.
It makes sense to have employees who speak Spanish if one's business is in a high-use area. I live in a valley where many citizens come from Mexico. When they need to visit a doctor or physical therapist--any appointment--the facility and the patient need to be able to communicate in a mutual language. Should the patients wait until they've met some nebulous 'basic' English requirement before seeking help?
In my husband's office, there is an employee who interprets for the Spanish-speaking patients, as well as doing clerical work. Without her, the office would lose that portion of the population in need of medical assistance--who can begrudge a professional who is trying to provide the best health care possible?
Who sets the English standards you would enforce on all who immigrate here? Simply peruse the threads on these boards--notice all the mispellings and incorrect grammar? Those are mistakes made by 'Americans' whose first language is English.
What test shall be devised in order to acertain whether or not the citizens of this country have the 'basic' English skills to reside here?
Just what, pray-tell, are 'basic' English skills? | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:08:42 PM | Yes, there is in fact reverse discrimination. Whenever the rights and needs of a minority impinge upon the rights and needs of the majority population it is reverse discrimination.
We are talking about the ability to communicate both verbally and in written English at a level that allows you to meet your basic needs without the aid of translation. We are not talking about the myriad of subtleties in grammar, spelling and punctuation in written English. You are quite correct that simply skimming the forums here shows you that many citizens do not posses adequate skills in grammar, punctuation and spelling.
However, I can assert with a fair degree of confidence that those people in this forum do not need language assistance when seeking employment,making purchases, seeking government assistance, health care etc.
I think we have enough scholarly minds in this country that we can both determine a set of minimal language fluency requirements as well as a test to measure said fluency. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:20:48 PM |
However, I can assert with a fair degree of confidence that those people in this forum do not need language assistance when seeking employment,making purchases, seeking government assistance, health care etc.
So you say.
I would assert that a job application filled out by some native English-speaking folks would (and do) end up in the round file due to mispellings and poor usage.
And, I reiterate: discrimination is discrimination. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/31/2009 4:34:45 PM | I didn't look back at any other post that I made in here, but I do discriminate when it comes to getting emails in here from men who want my attention and can not use proper punctuation. If they use that text message crap, I don't even bother to answer the email because I know it would annoy the hell out of me to have email exchanges with someone who doesn't have the where with all to use appropriate writing.
I went to nursing school with hicks who couldn't speak proper English ... made me wonder if they wrote essays using the same language. I can just imagine when they had to write down their observations ... "I seen the patient walk into the room and she done did a quick turn a round when she seen me sittin' there watchin' her. It was real clar like that she could walk within' out her cane." | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:52:02 PM | On any given day I talk to people from 20 some odd different racial backrounds.
If I deprived myself of their company/friendship because they didn't speak the way I deemed 'required' to even talk in my direction I would be doing nobody but myself a great disservice. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:57:22 PM |
On any given day I talk to people from 20 some odd different racial backrounds.
If I deprived myself of their company/friendship because they didn't speak the way I deemed 'required' to even talk in my direction I would be doing nobody but myself a great diservice.
Exactly.
Thank you for stating this so well.
Mahalo! | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 3/31/2009 8:13:34 PM | I don't discriminate against any person who contacts me just for friendship and about the forums. I have way too many friends on here from several foreign countries.
I only discriminate when it comes to a perspective partner. If it is a man who can communicate in German, then no problem ... I can read, speak, and write German. But if a man wants my attention, unless he is from a foreign background (my ex was German and I did not demand him to be able to speak or write English) he needs to be intelligent enough to communicate appropriately in English.
Now that I think about it ... I really only discriminate if a person is born and raised here in the US and appears to only be able to communicate in that horrible text crap. That's just not necessary.
Supposedly these are people who had to have English classes in school in order to graduate. So is it asking too much to expect them to use their high school English skills in a doggone Email or here in the forums? | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 6:57:59 PM | OP~
while i think there should be it may be difficult to legislate this. why? because people have a chip on thier shoulder and often consider it an affront to thier racial/ethnic identity to be "forced" to learn another language. it's silly, yes, i know, because language is simply an arbitrary tool used to codify meaning and is a method by which we transmit that meaning to others...but some people get very touchy about language...
which begs the question... if you didn't want to have to learn another language then why didn't you immigrate to a country where you wouldnt' have to learn a new language.
lar | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 7:02:09 PM | irishgal~
so-called "language diversity" is not part of our "national heritage."
we brutalized many a new immigrant from russia, eastern europe, germany, sweden, etc. into learning english in our school systems in the early part of the last century. we were none too nice about it either...
we have never been a poly linguistic nation. period. and frankly, english is now the international language of business, diplomacy, and even technology. why anyone would CHOOSE to NOT learn it is beyond me. it only opens doors of opportunity.
lar | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 7:28:40 PM | "people have a chip on thier shoulder and often consider it an affront to thier racial/ethnic identity to be "forced" to learn another language. it's silly, yes, i know"
Yes, very silly when some Americans who want to do business with a community that speaks Spanish or Vietnamese or Polish as their first language think that their customers should be the ones to learn a second language; that their employees should be the ones to learn a second language. Very silly when some Americans think that just because a fellow American speaks another language as their first language than they must be immigrants ... which isn't true. Many people born in the United States do not speak English as their first language.
Why don't we put a single language to a vote in America for a national language? Because English as a first language is a minority at this point. What is pathetic is that we raise our children monolingual. What a waste of a human mind. What a disaster for our ability to compete in a gloable economy. How incredibly non-entreprenuerial of us. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 7:34:36 PM | "Yes, there is in fact reverse discrimination. Whenever the rights and needs of a minority impinge upon the rights and needs of the majority population it is reverse discrimination."
So when the minority of the population that speaks English as a first language are attempting to force English on the majority of the population which do not speak English as their first language ... and I am limiting that to legal residents ... then those English as a first language Americans are practicing reverse discrimination ?? hmmmm... You may be right about that.
However, this is not a democracy, it is a representative republic. It is not majority rule, it is representative rule. As a result, the predominately English speaking central states do have a greater representation on this topic ... so far. It is dwindling quickly. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 7:36:57 PM |
english is now the international language of business, diplomacy, and even technology. why anyone would CHOOSE to NOT learn it is beyond me. it only opens doors of opportunity. Since I speak a second language, I can't say that it opens any doors for me professionally, but socially it's absolutely wonderful.
Career wise ... depending on where you live these days ... you can't even get a doggone job unless you speak Spanish as well as English. It's getting really difficult to get a nursing job in Florida or Arizona (and I wouldn't be surprised a lot of other states) ... unless you can speak Spanish. They do not want any nurses in a doctor's office unless they can speak Spanish.
I'm anxious to see what it will be like in Ohio. I think perhaps it would be better if I speak Somali as well as Spanish. Columbus, Ohio has the second largest Somali population in the US and there are all kinds of Mexicans there as well.
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/5/2009 7:40:50 PM | "you can't even get a doggone job unless you speak Spanish as well as English."
Yeppers. My super duper total red-neck nephew wanted to be a public defender/prosecutor .... bilingual English/Spanish required. He is soooooooo red-necked that he forfeited the career he wanted as he righteously refused to learn to speak Spanish. Odd, I do think he has learned to speak some Russian in order to speak to his Russian wife's family - and their son is bilingual Russian/English. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/7/2009 1:11:21 PM |
Why don't we put a single language to a vote in America for a national language? Because English as a first language is a minority at this point.
Do you have any proof of this statement?
The only conceivable way this could be true is if your position your statement as English vs. Non-English as primary language. I am willing to concede that the majority of the country may no longer speak English as their primary language. However, English would be the highest percentage language spoken as a primary language followed by the rest of the other splintered percentages.
The bottom line is that no Country, Government, or Group can operate successfully without the bond of a common language. Denying English as the common bond of this country will serve to further rip the fabric of this country. Government and Business must have a common language framework to operate upon and English has been that agreed upon language in this country. We cannot operate our Government or our Businesses on the foundation of multiple languages. It is cumbersome and a financial burden that cannot and should not be taken on. Our Government has trouble enough funding services without the added burden or providing those services in multiple languages.
Previous immigrant groups have recognized that and strove to learn English as it was recognized as a requirement to succeed at the American dream. This new crop of immigrants expects America and Americans to adapt to them. They want to retain their national language and cultural heritage at the expensive of ours. I would never move to another country and expect them to speak my language. It just is not logical.
Why don't we put a single language to a vote in America for a national language? Because English as a first language is a minority at this point. What is pathetic is that we raise our children monolingual. What a waste of a human mind. What a disaster for our ability to compete in a gloable economy. How incredibly non-entreprenuerial of us.
Why don't we put it to a vote? The simple answers is that no politician wants to sponsor such legislation for fear of alienating any potential voters. I think if you polled the vast majority of Americans you would find support for establishing English as the national language. However, once again our Politicians are struck impotent by the fear of the loss of a few votes. They have lost contact with the needs and wants of Americans and are operating purely upon what is best for their political career rather than what is best for the country.
I agree it is a waste to teach our children to be monolingual. Language acquisition ability is at its peak in children and we waste that potential by not introducing other languages at a young age. However, that being said what language do we choose for our children to speak? English is the language of business for the world economy. In recognition of this many other cultures teach their children English from a young age.
In America the second language option is not as clear cut as it is in Non-English speaking countries. In light of the current Latinization of America it would appear that we all need to learn Spanish. Globally speaking an argument can be made for one of the Chinese or Japanese languages.
Speaking English only is not a hindrance in the world economy as English is the language of the world economy. Therefore, being monolinguistic is not an impedance in our entrepreneurial capability in the world economy. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/7/2009 2:39:55 PM | Okay, I'm Canadian and this is an internal US matter that doesn't affect anyone but other Americans. I know I stick my oar in about US politics a lot - but your policies and politics has greater affect on Canada than our policies and politics. But this doesn't affect us up here. That said:
The bottom line is that no Country, Government, or Group can operate successfully without the bond of a common language.
That's just not true. Switzerland has 2 languages; Belgium has 2; India has something around 30; Canada obviously has 2; Ireland has 2. Washington and Jefferson wanted German to be an official language of the US.
I think getting worked up about this is petty. There have been lots of waves of immigration in you country - many have lived and died in America speaking only Polish, German, Italian, Yiddish, Chinese, Spanish....Their kids all learned English. This is getting all worked up about something that will be resolved in one generation. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 4/7/2009 9:09:40 PM |
Yes, there is in fact reverse discrimination. Whenever the rights and needs of a minority impinge upon the rights and needs of the majority population it is reverse discrimination.
http://www.uwo.ca/mediawatch/reverse.htm
Reverse: adjective. 1) acting, operating, or arranged in a manner contrary to the usual.
In combination with discrimination, "reverse" assumes that discrimination against whites or males is "contrary to the usual". Reverse discrimination assumes that discrimination against men and whites is abnormal, even though non-whites and women are discriminated against everyday.
There is more concern about the word "reverse" than "discrimination". Isn't any form of discrimination problematic?
Discrimination is about the abuse of power. For example, racism is about the abuse of power by the white majority over people of colour. In our culture, white, Euro-Canadians hold power and privilege. You cannot have reverse discrimination in this context because you cannot reverse the power.
Those who cite "quotas", "affirmative action", "multi-culturalism" or awareness of "special interest" groups as examples of reverse discrimination are likely to be in positions of power and privilege in this culture. Reverse discrimination implies that those with power believe it shouldn't happen to them, only to the other people it happens to.
If the individual is capable of functioning in society, earning a living and paying taxes, frankly I could care less what language they speak. Their need to speak perfect English will be determined by the job they apply for and they will not be able to claim discrimination if a certain job (i.e. 911 operator, doctor, police officer) requires a complete grasp of the language whereas a ditch digger or burger flipper, gardener, or frankly many tradesmen or service industry jobs do not.
Reverse discrimination is a term that "screams" bigotry to me. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 6/10/2009 6:44:31 PM | | I think to equate requiring basic English as the "official" US language as having racial connotations is missing the point. Maybe calling it a "base language" would make you feel better. The point is this.....when people can not communicate......trust...and understanding suffer. In the case of OUR nation American English has been that language and should remain as the Base Language for basic communications. Yes it is a difficult language to master....and some of us "natives " never accomplish that. People come to this country for a reason....and I welcome that......But it is only human nature to resist or object when you can not communicate. | |
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